Jason "Mayhem" Miller Talks UFC's Stranglehold
by Luke Thomas on Sep 2, 2009 4:04 PM EDT
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With the upcoming second season of MTV's Bully Beatdown descending upon us, Miller is making the rounds in the interview circuit. Journalists have asked him similar questions before, but I found this response to be relatively fresh:
You've had one fight in the UFC, a loss to Georges St Pierre. Do you want to get back to the UFC?
Not really. Everybody talks about the UFC. I really respect the fighters in the UFC, and they are the biggest show in the United States, but to me everything is a business decision. When it's worth it to them for me to be in there and it's worth it to me for me to be in there, then I'll go.
It's like this: Would you want to work for the best car company, but work for free? Would you want to be a waiter at the best restaurant but you never get any tips? Of course not.
On top of that, I'm in the EA Sports video game, and I heard Dana White said that if you're in that video game you can never be in the video game. Well, I guess that means I'll never be in the UFC, because before he made that announcement I had already said I'd be in the EA game, and I'm a man of my word.
Do you think the UFC tries to strong-arm fighters into signing contracts that aren't good for them?
Of course. Is that a secret? Is that something people don't realize? Maybe the common fans don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but if you're in the UFC you're in the biggest show, and with that is a trade-off. It gives you the opportunity to make the most money and have the biggest sponsors, but the trade-off is the UFC owns you. Fighters have to determine whether it's worth it to them to give up those rights to be able to fight on the biggest stage in the United States.
Notice how he twice says the UFC is the biggest show in the United States, not worldwide. Clearly their popularity abroad waxes and wanes depending on which country you go to, but popularity aside, there isn't a bigger or more important show than the Ultimate Fighting Championship.
But I buy his point about trade-offs to some extent. Mayhem is able to brand and sell himself while offering a respectable level of talent (if something shy of top ten material) in a sport where both talents are coveted. And while Mayhem certainly has a flair for the dramatic, he does by and large fight tough, credible opposition. However, what track is he on? He can win lesser belts and line his pockets, but he's not divisionally asserting himself as many of his UFC counterparts are doing. No one has to follow such a path and clearly Miller is making a fine living for himself without doing so. Perhaps more fighters should follow his lead. I tend to think, though, that UFC fighters who are serious and capable aren't operating in a similar model as Miller's. I judge neither as superior to the other depending on needs and goals.
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miller is one of the few mma fighters who can make a good living without the ufc, that much is true, but for him to speak out on any of their business practices and how they treat their fighters is asisnine. why is at every ufc show meanmugging the camera? why is he in dana’s vlogs kissing dana’s ass? he comes off as a bit bitter to me.
by bdw on Sep 2, 2009 3:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he was in Dana’s v-logs, I didnt know that
by The Bronzeville Bully on Sep 2, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why is he in dana’s vlogs kissing dana’s ass?
really bro?? being friendly is NOW kissing ass?
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Sep 2, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes really
he’s being a little bit more than just “friendly” in all the vlogs iv’e seen him in w/dana. agreeing with the question"do you think the ufc is strongarming thier fighters into signing contracts that aren’t good for them?" is a pretty strong stance to take against someone for whom you have not been affliated with for over 6 years or so. like bigbadmmafan said below, he’s buddy,buddy to his face, but is talking shit behind his back. i agree that it is just business for mayhem, just the same as it is just buisness for the ufc when they talked to him and made him an offer he did not like, and obviously they have talked to him going by this interview.
by bdw on Sep 2, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Miller isn’t exactly a rocket scientist. He proves it with his interview.
He talks about working at the best car company for free?
The UFC pays their main event fighters more then any other organization in the world. The only difference is that the fighters have to prove it and earn their way into those spots. The rest of their fighters are still getting paid solid, ranging from guys like Diego Sanchez ($100,000 a win) to guys just starting out like Todd Duffee ($20,000 a win).
If he wants to complain about fighter pay, he should look right at an organization that he is about to fight in… Which is Strikeforce. Their Challenger Shows have payrolls that are horrible. And even their August Event had a combined undercard payroll, not including the remoted fight of Hieron/Taylor, of under $40,000 for all the fighters combined.
As for Jason Miller…. He is a decent fighter that will never be top of the food chain. He will always be more valuable to organizations outside of the UFC…. but he is unique in that regard…..
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he's saying he makes a lot more money outside the UFC
than he would inside it.
“free” might be hyperbole, but I don’t doubt that he makes a lot more doing what he’s doing than he would do in the UFC right now.
The same is true of other “name” fighters who have stayed outside the org but do well enough to maintain a high profile — Mayhem and Eddie Alvarez are almost unique in that among American fighters. The big Japanese fighters do much much better financially fighting in Japan than they would do in the UFC (Akiyama might be an exception). Someone like Hector Lombard probably made much more money winning the Bellator tournament than he would have done in three fights in the UFC.
The UFC isn’t the best place for every fighter. People have different goals in life and not everyone has the talent or desire to be the best in the world but can still have a very enjoyable and successful career fighting MMA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Sep 2, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he would get his ass kicked in the UFC…
Its real simple… if you arent top 10 or top 5 and you are an “entertainer” then sometimes it makes more sense not to fight the best guys and get your ass kicked. That doesnt bode too well for your persona makes it tougher for your agent to get entertainment deals for you.
It might make more sense for him NOW to be back in the UFC because his “celebrity” would be better monetized.
But when he was fighting for HDNET fights that made more sense for him because if he were in the UFC getting his ass kicked would he have a show on MTV? probably not.
by mmalogic on Sep 2, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone like Hector Lombard probably made much more money winning the Bellator tournament than he would have done in three fights in the UFC.
How is that? And with Eddie Alverez, I believe he would of made more in UFC than fighting Bellator. As of right now, it appears these fighters have to sit out until, Bellator TV contract kicks in (that’s they actually got one)
by The Bronzeville Bully on Sep 2, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
winning the Bellator tournament
paid over six figures according to Alvarez’ manager.
When you account for the dramatic difference in competition between Bellator and the UFC, you realize it was a smart play for Alvarez. He could easily go 1-2 in a UFC deal and get paid $30/$30.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Sep 2, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also said “Would you want to be a waiter at the best restaurant but you never get any tips?”, wich is much fitting analogy. If there is a second comparision it’s probably because he noticed the first one was bad.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Sep 2, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve got a better one for him. People who go to college are statically proven to make more money once they graduate.
I remember being 19 and some of the kids I went to high school with were bragging because they were making $12 an hour, while I basically had no money and went off to college. Well, 5 years later, they are probably making no more then $14 an hour and all the kids who graduated college are making much more.
There is much more growth potential by putting yourself into a 4 year institution. Just like there is much more growth potential by putting yourself into the UFC.
And he seems to forget that being a “UFC Veteran” is one of the reasons why he can make as much as he is making now….. How soon he forgets….
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t think his one fight/loss in the UFC to GSP would qualify him to be a “UFC Veteran” and it would hardly be the reason for him to be making as much as he is now. I firmly believe it is because of his how consistently good he has been threw the years (Perhaps not against top 10-15 fighters but some good solid ones), and because of how he can market himself, I mean even UFC casuals know this man.
by TearsofaClown on Sep 2, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think he was referring to him being a ’UFC veteran" due to his loss to GSP, simply that he used to be in the UFC. Mayhem is a UFC veteran. Its a selling point for him. People know who he is. Without his time in the UFC it would probably be unlikely that he landed the MTV show.
I think people are taking his examples too literally. He explained it pretty clearly and fairly in the end by saying:
It gives you the opportunity to make the most money and have the biggest sponsors, but the trade-off is the UFC owns you. Fighters have to determine whether it’s worth it to them to give up those rights to be able to fight on the biggest stage in the United States.
by GeeDub on Sep 2, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
him being in the UFC had nothing to do with him getting bully beatdown…it really didnt.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Sep 2, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What i was saying is that having one fight in the UFC would hardly make someone a “UFC veteran”. I doubt that most folks would even remembered or saw that fight before the show Bully Beatdown came on to t.v (with the exception of GSP/Mayhem fans). He got that show because of his personality.
by TearsofaClown on Sep 4, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t argue with much that Mayhem says here. If he thought he was one of the best in the world, he would fight in the UFC because after he proves it, the UFC will pay him accordingly.
The problem is he knows he’ll have to prove it first.
by Razzel on Sep 2, 2009 3:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s an easy choice then.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Sep 2, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Theoretical question:
If George St. Pierre was offered a deal from Dream/Strikeforce that made more sense financially for him, and signed with them, would he be ducking talent.
by nottheface on Sep 2, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. As a fan, as long as they are being paid “enough”, they need to go were the talent is to showcase they are the best. The UFC still have the best up & coming Welterweights, even though the next year doesn’t pose a lot of issues for GSP.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Sep 2, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another hypothetical question:
If you were singing “Covent Garden” at the London Royal Opera House and you were the reason huge crowds were showing up, but you were being paid a small portion of the profits, unlike the director and producer who were making much more than you, would you stay because that is where the best sing? Or would you go somewhere else where they promised to pay you what you thought you were worth, even if it wasn’t as good of theatre?
by nottheface on Sep 2, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I won’t question someone going where they can make the most money. As long as they explain why they are doing it, and it’s actually true that you would be making less money by going to the lesser place.
by Phildo on Sep 2, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry is that you?
In all seriousness, how is this comparison even relevant to the discussion?
Look, fight promotions are businesses. Basically, what you’re analogy is saying here is that, since you’re the best, you should get all of the money, no matter where you sing/fight/play and no matter the level of competition. I’m assuming you have a problem with every owner of every sports franchise in America then, right?
All of those owners are making millions upon millions off of their athletes that they sign to contracts and who perform for them. But in your analogy, these players should leave where the best competition is at (MLB, NFL, NBA, UFC), where they make plenty of money, to go to a different league to play against lesser competition but get paid more. Guess what, no matter what happens, the owner is ALWAYS going to make more than the players.
Sometimes the hatred of the UFC boggles the mind. People see disclosed fighter payrolls and assume that everyone is getting shafted. Get real.
Contributing writer for MMA-Analyst.com
by Joe Schmitt on Sep 2, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe,
I think you’ll completely missed the point on my questions. It was related to why Jason Miller might see the benefit in signing with someone outside the UFC. Many of the previous posters have seemed to suggest that there was no excuse for not fighting in the UFC, even if greater rewards could be found elsewhere, as long, as Always Relaxing stated, they are paid “enough”. I was giving some extreme examples to try and see if it was, at any point, acceptable for a star like George St. Pierre or, to use a more neutral example, an opera singer to go where there is less talent but more money.
And in your example of the NFL or MLB, players can and do leave all the time. It’s called free agency where they often sign with the team that pays them more.
by nottheface on Sep 2, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I got the point of your statements, the example you used was just irrelevant to the discussion.
As far as MLB, NFL, etc., those players don’t leave the league where the stiffest competition is and go to another league (CFL, UFL, overseas), they may switch “teams” but they don’t give up on the league because the NFL/MLB has them in a stranglehold and they can make more money in Japan/Europe. That comparison isn’t apples to apples either, but it’s more in line with the discussion. However, you are now starting to see that players from other countries and leagues are starting to defect to MLB because of the competition and pay. How is that different?
Maybe this example will work better. Do you think that if the team that won the baseball championship in Japan got an opportunity to face the winner of the World Series that they would do it regardless of money? I guarantee you they would. This is the point that a lot of posters are trying to make. The UFC is the top dog. It’s that way because of public perception and they way they have marketed their brand. The casual fans don’t call it MMA, they call it Ultimate Fighting, and it’s not going to change in the immediate future. So to me, as long as you want to be the best at what you do, you should be fighting in the major leagues, the UFC. Mayhem Miller isn’t the best, he won’t be the best, but he can use his personality and fame to garner more money from other promotions. There is nothing wrong with that, but to use the UFC’s “stranglehold” as his reasoning why, that’s a fallacy.
Contributing writer for MMA-Analyst.com
by Joe Schmitt on Sep 2, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends on motivation. If one is motivated by money, by all means, I’m not gonna begrudge them so long as they admit it. But if one were motivated by wanting to fight the best and build a legacy, that’s a different thing. The reality is, GSP isn’t being paid beans. He’s being paid well. He even acknowledged that in a Dana Vlog when he thanked him because he’s now able to take care of his family. GSP has been fighting the best WW’s in the world for the past couple of years.
As AlwaysRelaxing said, as a fan, I want to see the fighters fight the best in the world.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Sep 2, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So how about BJ Penn and Anderson Silva then. Do they need to leave the UFC to face the top talent and showcase they are the best?
They have beaten the best the UFC has to offer and in my opinion, guys like Aoki, Hansen, Alvarez, Kawajiri, Kitaoka and Ribeiro all pose more of a threat to BJ than the bulk of the UFC LWs. Similarly, Anderson has beaten the top threats in the UFC easily and managed to avoid fighting perhaps his worst style matchup in Jacare and a potentially more dangerous striker than himself in Manhoef. Instead of taking on these guys he was taking on Cote, Leites and Griffin and might now be looking and rematching guys he has already beaten.
Do these guys in the UFC have an obligation to yearn to fight the best fighters available, even if they are outside the UFC?
by GeeDub on Sep 2, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually you bring up an interesting question: if proving yourself to be the best is the primary goal of mma, then why are we not mad that Lesnar or Carwin haven’t left the UFC to fight Fedor. If you want to prove you are the best then you should be jumping at a chance to fight the number one ranked HW, shouldn’t you?
Unless, of course, the UFC paid more.
by nottheface on Sep 2, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lesnar and Carwin dont worry me too much yet because they are/were both still green. They need to prove themselves against solid fighters. But if Lesnar beats Carwin and then Nog……then what does he do? Hang around and beat up Rothwell and Velasquez or make the jump to fight the remaining threats in the division being guys like Fedor, Rogers, Overeem….etc.
by GeeDub on Sep 2, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This can’t be a serious question…right?
I’m sure I don’t have to go into an explanation on business and economics with you to prove that your statement holds no weight.
I feel like a broken record, but I’ll say it again. The UFC is the top dog. They are the MLB/NFL/NBA of MMA. Their champions are perceived by the casual fans as the only champion. They hold the majority of all of the top contenders in each weight class, and their events are seen by more fans than any other.
And your question goes both ways, if Fedor was the best, shouldn’t he be jumping at the opportunity to jump into the UFC and prove it? I’ll go back to my previous example, if the team that won the baseball championship in Japan got an opportunity to play the World Series champions from the MLB, don’t you think they would jump on it? The World Series champions are perceived to be the best by the public, regardless of what hardcore baseball fans believe. So, by your analogy, since a small segment of the market believes the Japan team is better, the World Series champions should leave MLB and seek out a game with the team from Japan? That would never happen in a million years. However, if the role was reversed, the team from Japan would jump at the challenge to play the World Series champions, regardless of how much money is involved in the equation. They’d probably play for free, truthfully. That, my friend, is why people want Fedor in the UFC. If you’re the best, and you want to claim you’re the best, come prove it in the big leagues.
Contributing writer for MMA-Analyst.com
by Joe Schmitt on Sep 2, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hmm
In theory, yes. But his situation isn’t exactly normal. There’s really no talent left for him to duck in the UFC.
Regardless, it is a meaningless question. It would never happen.
by Danny Dangerously on Sep 2, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not a realistic question, because being a top fighter in the UFC pays more than anywhere else.
by Razzel on Sep 2, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miller is also in a unique position because of his image, which is probably more valuable to him right now than his fighting skills . Signing with the UFC would mean giving them veto power over his career choices. If they had a show that competed with “Bully Beatdown” they could block him from appearing on it. He is much better off, financially, worrying about his own image marketing than a with a company that has an overarching scheme.
by nottheface on Sep 2, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WOAH!!! cant start putting your own image over that of the promotion, youre starting to sound like you support the boxing model which equates to a good flaming on this site
Dont get down on Forrest, no one has moves like Anderson Silva.
by ryanwk628 on Sep 2, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOAH!!! cant start putting your own image over that of the promotion
Tell this to M-1.Fedor’s image is all they got to promote themselves.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
by spectaa on Sep 2, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason "Mayhem" Miller is the voice of reason
It is the end times.
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes
by Paynuss on Sep 2, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Miller is probably borderline top 15 in his weight class, maybe top 10 if you pushed it. Why should he go to the UFC and be a mid-carder and not have the flexibility to do his own thing – which is obviously making him plenty of coin and publicity – when he can headline DREAM shows, possibly Strikeforce shows and basically do his own thing? Nothing wrong with essentially being your own boss.
by KrmtDfrog on Sep 2, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good read.
Mayhem might not be everybody’s cup of tea but he sounds pretty honest & more intelligent than people seem to give him credit for. For those of you calling him out for not being a top fighter or trying to test himself in the UFC, I doubt you’ve ever seriously competed @ anything. It’s about testing yourself, not caring what others think. And when you do it for a living, THE BUSINESS SIDE OF THINGS COME 1st.
by frickshun on Sep 2, 2009 3:50 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Mayhem is exactly the kind of B level athlete who will have a lot of trouble in a world with a dominant UFC. And that’s why a lot of fighters are scared of the UFC—- they see that if the UFC gains total dominance at the top of the sport, they will be relegated to regional promotions or a boot-licking existence on UFC undercards.
by toxic on Sep 2, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is what people forget about the UFC
Almost every contract is x amount of dollars to show and x amount of dollars to win so guess what by doing that everyone wants to win so it becomes a lot harder to win.
These guys like Mayhem like the contracts where all they have to do is show up and they get paid.
The problem with all these guys is if they go to a UFC show they dont say sh@t. If Mayhem is at a UFC show he doesnt go Dana you need to treat your fighters better. These guys blast Dana behind his back but wouldnt say anything around him.
Finally no matter what anyone tells you, everything in mma is about money. Mayhem Miller if he could get Lesnar money would be in the UFC in a second.
Randy just resigned with the UFC because of money and Fedor is not in the UFC because of money. Throw more money anybody’s way and they STFU. See Ortiz, Couture, etc..
Why does Fedor want to co-promote becacuse if you can get the UFC to do a 50/50 split that is more money.
Money!! It’s what makes the world go round.
by bigdmmafan on Sep 2, 2009 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Thanks. Finally the voice of reason.
by nottheface on Sep 2, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You think there’s no win bonuses outside the UFC?
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on Sep 2, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is
But there are also a lot of companies that do just money to show and nothing else.
Look at Mousasi in Strikeforce. He didnt get a win bonus. Fedor. Affliction didnt do win bonus’ with a lot of people. Barnett. Lil Nog.
And yes they did some. Just like Strikeforce does some. I’m just saying about the only person in the UFC can find with a show/win contract is Liddell.
by bigdmmafan on Sep 2, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Using those numbers is useless for anything, I hate when people use them to prove anything.
According to those numbers Brock only got 400k for beating Mir, Frank Trigg got 1 dollar for one of his last fights, and Fedor got 300k for all of his Affliction fights.
The moral of the story is, those numbers are useless. The only thing they are is a bare minimum of what people receive, but that doesn’t count for much when we really have no idea what the actual number is.
by Phildo on Sep 2, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Money!! It’s what makes the world go round.
it amazes me when MMA fans are shocked to find out that prize fighters fight for the most money possible.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Sep 2, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHEN DID HE SAY IT WAS "NOT" ABOUT MONEY?
You should re-read the quotes. He didn’t say money is irrelevant. Every person wants to maximize their income potential. You didn’t just crack the DaVinci Code…..
by frickshun on Sep 2, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope you’re kidding.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on Sep 2, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
damn, reply fail AGAIN
RE: Kang/Lawler = C level.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on Sep 2, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder how mma would manage under a PGA style match play type league. Where random tournaments are held by different companies with prize money at the end. Certain fighters are invited, while winning smaller tournaments gets you invited to larger majors with bigger prize money. And players are points ranked like the fedex cup with a 10 million dollar prize pool at the end.
by pandaboy99 on Sep 2, 2009 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not an exprrt
but I think the top ten guys in div. of the ufc seem pretty happy about their situation… obviously for the guys earning 10k things are way different, but guys at mayhems level in the ufc seem pretty free and content. I know the sports analogies are weak, but sports contracts are always give and take… the ‘team’ or org. sees them as an investment and wants to protect that
by cagefightonacid on Sep 2, 2009 6:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
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