Quote of the Day: Kimbo Slice Talks Bas Rutten
by Kid Nate on Sep 12, 2009 10:24 AM EDT
in MMA News
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"I guess with him, he pretended to be a friend but he really wasn't I guess. It was just business with him. You pay a guy good money to teach you things and be a good teacher and they take your money.
"But then they turn round and say ‘I tried to teach you stuff but its not working'?... Come on man, you're not a good teacher - so really he owes me some money right?" Slice laughed. "But its all good, we all do what we gotta do."
Kimbo Slice talks about former coach Bas Rutten to Fighters Only.
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Didn’t Bas say that Kimbo kept doing things he wasn’t supposed to be doing and thats why he called it quits? And I don’t mean fight related things. The way Rutten explained the situation it sounded like Kimbo was doing things outside of fighting that Bas told him to stop but Kimbo wouldn’t.
Yeah that’s what Bas said. Who knows there’s always two sides.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 12, 2009 11:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
My problem is that Bas started dissing Kimbo only after he lost, before the loss he was all “He trains a lot and he’s a great follower”. makes this Kimbo quote much more reliable to me.
this is very true
at one point Bas was even comparing Kimbo favorably to Brock Lesnar — this was before Brock’s UFC debut, but still. The wrestling creds Brock brought with him made it clear he was a much more viable prospect than Kimbo.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The other problem I have is that Bas didn’t just throw Kimbo under the Bas after the Petruzelli loss and be done with it. He waited until Kimbo got his career back on track and then threw him under the bus again a year later. Bas has acted like a jilted school girl and taken every opportunity presented to him to trash his former student.
Do you see Greg Jackson trashing Diego Sanchez, or Pat Miletich trashing Drew McFedries, or Rudimar Fedrigo trashing the Rua brothers? Of course not. Those guys are class acts and world class trainers. Bas could learn a thing or two from them.
Despite the bickering, and what Kimbo did or didn't do.....
I just think Bas is WAY overrated. Bigtime. Especially as a coach. Who has he coached?
by Dexerion on Sep 12, 2009 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey, if you've seen his self defense video...
..what a faunt of information!
“Really? I can use a common everyday bar stool to bludgeon a guy? Seriously?”
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
The only fighters in recent times that come to mind that BAS has coached well advised and instructed are Chris Horodecki, Benji Radach,Duane Ludwig, Alex Steibling and Genki Sudo, and Carlos Newton bolth worked with BAS alot for there striking.
And a lot of those guys,
I look at their names and I go :
WHO?
Really?
Chris Horodecki, Benji Radach,Duane Ludwig and Carlos Newton are all well-known fighters.
If you are inferring that they’re not the cream-of-the-crop – they’re probably not. That said, Horodecki is extremely young and has tremendous potential; Not to mention Carlos Newton is a legend.
"Bulls die on the ground" - Karl Gotch
by TheMisanthrope on Sep 13, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
WOW really? ):()
Dude come on your sounding like a MMA super Noob, even my lil brother knows BANG!!! Duane Ludwig. lol that’s the problem with lots of MMA fans….they are UFC fans…and as you know…(i hope the ones that really know MMA) that UFC is not MMA.
Wonder what really went wrong. From The Smashing Machine movie, we see snippets of the relationship Bas had with Ricco Rodriguez. Ricco is lazy and not dedicated, and Bas just won’t deal with it. So here is an example where Bas sticks to his principles and he’s probably in the right. That makes it harder to take what Kimbo is saying at face value.
But on the other side, we always have this image of Bas as a legendary trainer. Yet which fighters has he produced in the last 10 years that make him deserving of this label? Maybe there are some but I just don’t know who they are. Point being maybe Bas isn’t the great coach we think and Kimbo found that out.
I don’t really see why the fact that Ricco was lazy automatically means that Kimbo must be lazy, too. That seems like a bit of a logical leap.
by DantesWitness on Sep 12, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
no, wasn’t trying to suggest that kimbo is specifically lazy. rather an example of how you could see a fighter say one thing, even if it was really bas who knew what was best…
Actually, the idea that you’re implying that Kimbo was LYING when he made that quote is pretty annoying….
I’d sooner take Kimbo at his word than Ras PUKE-ing at his.
WOW i never thought i would see this Happen
please does anyone else see whats happening or is it just me? Kimbo is ok for me and Bas is a Legend (that’s a fact) but in my opinion if this conversation came up right after Kimbo’s loss. i guarantee all of you would say Kimbo is at fault and you would throw Kimbo under a freaking train. so just because Dana says Kimbo is cool and he is a legit fighter (which i had no doubt in because the dude fought with some pros. even if they were cans at the time). and he will fight in UFC now every back got his back. lol really? quick note im note protecting any body just keeping the feed going.
P.s. this might sounds crazy but i know for a fact the Russian army’s elite soldiers do get Bas’s DVD training. as a part of the things must learn. lol must be the chi power.
that is one of the enigmas of that era of mma
in 1999-2001 when Bas Rutten, Mark Kerr and Ricco Rodriguez started training together most people thought they would be a premier gym. It was virtually the first time a top wrestler, top striker and top BJJ guy who had all had success in MMA got together to train.
I expected great things from all of them — this was before Kerr lost to Fujita and long before Ricco’s downfall — Ricco was on his way up at the time. Bas hadn’t yet won the UFC championship but was on his way over to the states for that run in the UFC.
When the Smashing Machine came out a few years later it became clear why Kerr fell off a cliff and gave hints to Ricco’s coming downfall.
That’s really the last time Bas was a major player as a coach and trainer. To be fair he’s put a ton of time and energy into announcing so it’s not like coaching has been his main gig at all.
There’s no doubt he’s a very good striker and an accomplished submission fighter though and I have no doubt he taught Kimbo a great deal.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Just because someone is good at something doesn’t mean they are good at teaching it. I read something about Michael Jordan one time talking about how he wasn’t a good coach because he would expect the guys he was teaching to be able to do things like he did, well there aren’t many guys out there who can emulate Jordan.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Sep 12, 2009 11:08 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
aye, but i’d say Bas isn’t MJ. Bas was great, but I’d argue not quite legendary as a fighter.
what makes Bas a legend is his personality and his understanding and analysis of the sport. these are traits that would suggest a good coach.
anyway, it’s interesting.
He won the title in every league he fought in.
The only thing that really held him back from being an absolute hall of famer was Pancrase’s rule set.
He never got to face Rickson Gracie, Royce Gracie, Don Frye, Marco Ruas, Dan Severn, Kazushi Sakuraba, Kiyoshi Tamura, or Oleg Taktarov.
But he did fight Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Guy Mezger, Maurice Smith, Masakatsu Funaki and Minoru Suzuki. And he beat them all.
None of his contemporaries can really match that record. Not even Royce or Rickson.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
i guess i’m also factoring in the circumstances of when he fought and what those fights represented.
better fighter between royce and bas? bas by a wide margin. more legendary fighter? royce due to what his fights represented and the circumstances they took place under.
my point is that bas was a great fighter, but that he’s even better known for his post-fight career. yet it’s interesting that the coaching aspect of this post-fight career maybe has some problems.
But he did fight Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Ken Shamrock, Frank Shamrock, Guy Mezger, Maurice Smith, Masakatsu Funaki and Minoru Suzuki. And he beat them all.
He did?
Last time I checked, he was 0-2 against Ken.
Personally, I don’t put much stock in old-school Pancrase results. Too many works and too many goofy rules. I can live with the ‘no closed fist’ rule, but the rope escape rule was just laughable. How many times was based saved by that rule during his career? Hell, in the first Shamrock fight alone, the rope escape rule saved his butt three or four times.
you are correct
I forgot about that.
good catch.
Yeah back in the day I never counted Pancrase as “real” NHB — No Holds Barred, what we called it before it was MMA. But it was a very close cousin and I kept up with the Pancrase results even if I only tracked down the most highly touted fights to order on VHS.
But still, when evaluating Bas’ accomplishments, the Pancrase stuff needs to be measured as best we can. For the most part they were legit shoot matches and the rules were very very close to modern MMA. It provides a good measure. Also so many Pancrase competitors excelled in the UFC or PRIDE — the Shamrocks, Bas, Mezger, Maurice Smith — that it was clearly a very competitive organization in terms of talent.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
No doubt the talent was there. Pancrase had much better than talent than the early UFCs did.
But I disagree that the rules were very close to modern MMA. No closed fists, rope escapes, no ground & pound, boots and shin guards, completely different scoring system, promoter-sanctioned and arranged works, etc. Pancrase was, for all intents and purposed, a pro wrestling league that just happened to feature real fights. It was basically kickboxing on the feet (heavy on the kick, light on the boxing) + catch wrestling on the ground. They didn’t really ‘mix’ their martial arts.
well “very close” depends on the context you are trying to compare them.
pancrase is much closer to modern MMA than boxing, toughman competitions, or american gladiators. it’s not like pancrase and MMA are from different planets.
when talking about bas’ accomplishments, i think it’s fair to compare pancrase and modern MMA as best as you can.
in fact i think the perfect litmus test on whether you can compare them is: did the top participants in one league manage to seamlessly transition to the other league?
the answer here is yes…..
whereas top participants in straight up japanese pro wrestling were far from capable of being legitimate fighters. a couple were able to make the switch (saku?) but otherwise i’d say this “transition” litmus test applies pretty well….
what you're leaving out
is that Pancrase started BEFORE the UFC so it’s a key part of the experimentation that resulted in modern MMA. It was a major major step towards modern MMA and should get its propers.
The problem is that things evolved so quickly that Pancrase never got a chance to be measured on its own. It had barely gotten off the ground when UFC and then the Shooto Vale Tudo Japan Tournaments pointed the way to the future.
But as Greg said, Pancrase rules are closer to MMA than to any other fighting sport of the time.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Meh.
You are overselling your point. Pancrase started a few months before the UFC and was nowhere near as important in the development of the sport. Heck, it was a distant second in Japan behind Shooto. Early Pancrase and Rings were nowhere near as important in the development of Japanese MMA because they were still experimenting with the mixed work-shoot format.
On a related note, listening to Bas’ commentary is a good sign to me that he wouldn’t be a very effective MMA coach.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
punch him in the liver!
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
by Bandaka on Sep 12, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not always
Sometimes, you just get dumb or lazy kids. If a kid has an IQ of 45, there’s not much you can do.
Jim Palmer: "I said to Nolan, 'Why do you run every ball out like that?' and he said, 'Why wouldn’t you?' "
All in all, I sat back and watched some old fights with Bas in it. Hell, I wish he was still fighthing. He was an amazing stiker with some serious GnP and subs. Oh well…
bullshit
Bas won plenty of wars. There were a few suspicious fights in Pancrase but most of them involved Ken Shamrock and the title.
Most of the fights in Pancrase — especially Bas’ fights were not works. He dished out a great deal of punishment — especially considering the rule set — no closed fist striking standing, no head strikes on the ground. Hard to work something like his fights with Frank Shamrock. Those were epic.
Have some respect.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Also
His UFC fights were unquestionably legit and even though he got the title via a gift decision over Kevin Randleman, he won some tough fights in the UFC via KO. I had the honor of seeing him beat Kohsaka at UFC 18 and that was unquestionably NOT a work and it was a great performance over a top fighter by Bas.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If by ‘won some tough fights via KO’ you mean won a fight by KO, you are correct. But let’s be honest, Bas UFC career was a disappointment. He was the original Cro Cop. SEG thought he was going to come in and dominate and what they got instead was a last minute KO in a fight he was losing (TK) and a gift decision in a fight he should have lost (Randleman).
Very first time I saw that Randleman fight...
I thought Bas won. He bloodied his dome from the guard. Randleman busted his nose early, but that was it.
BOOSH
How many fighters can you say...
…“there were a few suspicious fights” about? Bas and Kimbo? Tank Abbott? That’s it?
Classy company.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
I call bullshit
Serious ground & pound?
Where did you see his serious ground & pound? Certainly not in the Pancrase ring, where ground & pound was pretty much non-existent.
In My Opinion..
I’m inclined to believe more of Kimbo on this than anything, but here’s why..
Often times great athletes don’t make great teachers or coaches. I mean look at past athletes that have gone on to become great teachers or coaches etc.. Not one single “top” athlete has made an effective coach. You have mediocre players that have went on to become great coaches.. Coaching takes a certain mind frame. Often time’s the better athletes have a hard time coaching because they can’t see past their own limitations. They expect everyone to do what they were capable of doing. They often times over look the fact that, everyone has their own limitations and the great coaches know how to identify those limitations and find great workarounds for those. Not every body is going to be great, but you can make someone better.
I’m inclined to think Bas is just like most athletes that have excelled in their sport but fail to be great coaches. Bas probably doesn’t have the patience as most dont to handle it properly.. Now it could be a case of both are stubborn too.. When you get 2 alpha personalities together, often times they butt heads.. I’m inclined to think it was more of a case of neither having the patience to understand each other and learning the coping skills they needed to work together..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I’ll get Bas opinion on this exact quote next Saturday over at MMA Gospel.
by "Mr. NC-17" on Sep 12, 2009 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’ll take Bas’ word over his any day.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Everything is about money with Kimbo. Even his excuse as to why he doesn’t train with Bas anymore. Money… blah blah blah. I want my bread blah blah blah. He took my bread blah blah blah. I’m sure he’s a cool guy and all that like some of the TUF cast has said but to me his priority is the money, not being the best fighter he can be. If he wins or does above average on the show he has my respect though thats for sure.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Sep 12, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I often wondered about this with Kimbo. at one point he even said he’d be happy as a gatekeeper in the UFC. Sometimes it just sounds like all Kimbo wants is a steady paycheque, as opposed to being the best fighter he can be, but at his age, perhaps that’s just a reality that he’s accepted. I dunno. This is definitely a he said, he said situation, and to me in these situations, there’s generally a bit of truth or fiction to both sides. I have a feeling it may be a combination of Bas not being the trainer Kimbo thought he was, and Kimbo not being the fighter Bas thought he was. Regardless of motivation or who didn’t keep their end of the bargain, I am VERY interested to see how he does in TUF.
I love me some Sexyama!
Because Bas surely isn’t all about self-promotion?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Sep 12, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
xFenixKnightx,
Ummm….* psst ……Don’t look now but *EVERY FIGHTER IN THE UFC IS IN IT FOR THE MONEY!!!!
No one is going to risk life and limb out there for free…..They’re going to make sure they get PAID IN FULL, man. Would you work at your 9-to-5 job, putting up with all the aggravation, FOR FREE???? Hell no!
Word
Working with a Porn company doesn’t help Kimbo’s case either.
"The harder you flash, the harder you get flashed on" - Mos Def
What does working with a porn company have to do with anything ??
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
by MMAuthority on Sep 12, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Every clip I’ve ever seen of Bas and Kimbo training together they appeared to be on a high school football field, even while doing padwork. Somehow, I doubt that too much of that goes on with Jackson, ATT, Xtreme Couture, AKA, etc. camps. It kind of reminds me of the guy who used to teach Karate at the park across the street from my house when I was a kid, if only that instructor had been a world champion several times over.
by Velcro on Sep 12, 2009 12:08 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
So I browsed the comments reading some of Nate’s comments and what not, but not everything so excuse me if I am duplicating something. Durring the EXC days when Kimbo was with Bas, didn’t EXC make claims that Rhadi Fergeson was in some what related to Kimbo? Even Rhadi was on tape saying this at one point, or film of him priasing Kimbo was used to imply it. Later Rhadi basically said that was bullshit. Perhaps he was paid to make statements so the Shaws could make Kimbo seem more legit. This could also be the case with Bas, but after Kimbo lost Bas didn’t want to do down with him so he jumped ship. Backing Kimbo the way he did could do major damage to his rep because Kimbo was so high profile. After the loss it felt like the simpsons episode where Homer climbs the murderhorn or some other goofy mountain name and he is sponsered by powersauce bars. When the powersauce guys were sure he was going to die they claimed Homer had switched to a competitors bars.
by szucconi on Sep 12, 2009 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
The Murderhorn… that’s classic.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Sep 12, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
My understanding is that Kimbo and Rhadi are distant cousins
but I haven’t seen anything to imply any closer connection.
You got any links?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Kimbo obviously didn't listen to Bas
Not once did I hear him yell “bang, bang, bang” or “danga da dang” during his fights… or kick people in the groin.
Twitter: @JohnPinano
Winners do what losers don't.
I don’t know who to believe, but i’m more inclined to believe Bas, just cause of exprience
"On the sixth day god created man,but on the fifth day man created god" - Todd White on The Book Of Lucifer:
The Enlightenment
As NC-17 said, we will ask Bas about this Saturday on MMA Gospel.
One the topic of Pancrase, many seem to dismiss Pancrase as an organization but many forget or may not know that pancrase fighting was the original mma in early Rome. This is where the organization was using as inspiration.
Bas is legendary due to him being one of the most well rounded fighters of all time. subs vs. KOs…he was about 50-50. The guy could flat out fight and I wish he had not gotten so torn up because I would love to have seen him continue to fight.
Bas is very well respected in the mma community, by fighters, trainers, promoters, etc. One does not just get this respect for no reason. Very few people have anything bad to say about Bas.
I have to lean towards believing Bas on this one but we shall see. According to Bas he was coming in late to train, leaving early…not taking it seriously. Many trainers would be angered by this.
www.mmagospel.com
www.blogtalkradio.com/MMAGospel
1. Pankration was the Greeks, not the Romans.
2. I can understand why Rutten was upset in the aftermath of the Petruzelli fight, but why did he launch into another tirade nearly a year later when Kimbo was announced as a TUF 10 participant? Most trainers wish their former students well when they move on to other endeavors. Why did Bas feel the need to twist the knife more than a year after he and Kimbo had gone their separate ways? Seems petty and vindictive to me.
1. Yes it technically started there but what we know as Pankration came more from the Roman pancratium, at least that is what I have found in my extensive research on the matter.
2. Bas was asked about Kimbo when he was brought on TUF 10. I think Bas is pissed that he put the time and effort into making Kimbo a real mma fighter and Kimbo was not as dedicated as Bas would have liked.
I guess we shall see.
www.mmagospel.com
www.blogtalkradio.com/MMAGospel
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