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Fedor and Brock: A Tale of Two Fighters

 

From reading Sergio Non and Josh Rossen analysis of Brock Lesnar, you'd think that being 4-1 is somehow indicative of how unprepared Brock Lesnar will be in a fight against Fedor. To me, his record is indicative of what a phenom he is really is and how dominant he is as a heavyweight in MMA. But don't take my words for it, let me lay out the parallels of the two great fighters in their early career.

Fight #BrockOpp Rec FedorOpp Rec
1 Min Soo Kim (W)
3-6 Martin Lazarov (W)
0-2
2 Frank Mir (L)
12-4 Levon Lagvilava (W)
0-2
3 Heath Herring (W) 28-14 Hiroya Takada (W)
0-3
4 Randy Couture (W)
16-9 Ricardo Arona (W)
13-5
5 Frank Mir (W) 12-4 Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (L)
26-18-2

 

The Fedor supporters (or Brock detractors, take your pick) will drag out the fact that Brock's first opponent was a can at 3-6. However, they never mention that Fedor's first opponent was 0-2.

In his second fight, Brock asked to fight a contender. In this fight, he lost. The detractors will bring out the fact that he lost to Frank Mir in his second match, a former UFC heavyweight champion as if this is indicative of Brock's skills. It doesn't matter that he dominated Mir for two whole minutes and just got "caught."  Everyone loses in MMA, especially when you're fighting the top of the totem pole every single time. However, a loss is a loss.

In his third fight, he defeated a veteran in Heath Herring at 28-14. Fedor fought Takada who was 0-3. The Fedor supporters will bring up the fact that Heath is a middle of the road fighter. He is that, but he is also a much better fighter than when he fought Fedor. This was a guy who almost knocked out Nogueira in his UFC fight (no built-in excuse this time as Nogueira ended up winning). Versus Fedor, Herring lost by cut to Fedor after a 10 minute fight. This was Fedor's 13th fight, right before he won the belt from Nogueira.  See the parallels?

In his fourth fight, Brock won the belt from Randy Couture, a UFC champ. The detractors will bring up the fact that Randy is an old man. However, most experts predicted Randy would win this fight. Why would they pick an old over the hill fighter to win, never mind that he was the current belt holder at that time? Fedor fought Ricardo Arona, a light heavyweight to a decision in his fourth fight. Many thought that Arona should have won this fight. However, a loss is a loss, so we won't rewrite history.

In the fifth fight, Brock fought former UFC heavyweight champ Frank Mir again, this time dominating him from beginning to end. This is where we see the pure brilliance of his abilities. He controlled Mir, a 250lbs jujitsu black belt in a way no one has done before. Mir could not transition out of Brock's hold. Not only did Brock avenge his first and only loss, he did it in devastating fashion. Mir, if you remember, was also the guy who knocked out Nogueira for the first time ever. The detractors will bring up the excuse that Nogueira was "injured." How many times have fighters pulled out due to injuries? Why was it that Nogueira decided in this case that he will fight against a former champ for the interim belt while injured? Was he stupid or just crazy? Neither. (1) His injury was not bad enough since in his own words he thought he could still win (if you couldn't walk due to staph infection, why would you think you could win?), and (2) he has a built-in excuse in case of a loss. A win is a win and anything else is just an excuse.

Fedor lost his fifth fight by cut to a guy with a similar record to Heath Herring. The Fedor defenders will bring up the fact that this wasn't really a loss. How could this be? Under the unified rules, when a fighter is unable to continue due to a cut, it is considered a loss. In the tournament, this was also the rule. A loss is a loss, a win is a win, and the rules are the rules.

Fedor and Brock have similar records in their first five fights. Each had one loss each. Fedor fought 4 cans and one journeyman. Brock fought one can, two UFC champs, avenged his only loss, and defended the belt once. He improved dramatically from one fight to the other.

The hatred for Brock in the MMA community is amazing. The Fedor supporters like Jake Rossen will use his first five fights as somehow a liability for Brock while dismissing Fedor's padded record as a plus. Furthermore, people are even demanding that the heavyweight division be split in two because Brock is too dominant. How come nobody clamored for a new division when a former, unpopular champ in Tim Sylvia had to cut weight to hit 265 as well?

Now, with a chance to prove his worth with a 3-6 million per fight deal in the UFC, Fedor turned it down. Many of his supporters will argue that it's not about money. When people claim it's not about money, it's always about money. M-1's sole product is Fedor. Fedor's biggest selling point is his aura of invincibility. If Fedor walks through Brock, he would be richer by millions, still be able to fund his M-1 expansion and retain his aura of invincibility while helping M-1 grow through the marketing and popularity of the UFC machine. But what if he loses? Without Fedor, what would be left of M-1? M-1 would be left with damaged goods and the Fedor brand destroyed. This cannot happen. They turned down big money in the short term to protect M-1 and Fedor in the long term. Money makes the world go around and all business decisions revolve around money.

It's a shame that there are such divisions in the MMA world. The pro-UFC camp and the anti-UFC camp, both in fandom and the media. For the latter camp, Fedor is their last great hope against the hegemony of the UFC. For that reason, Fedor and Brock must never meet in combat. They will go out of their ways to turn down big money... or perhaps even split the heavyweight division.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 76 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 6, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I don't even see how this is an even comparable...

Comparing their first five opponents? I don’t know… this is a stretch in my mind, but then again… I would never make an argument that Brock is terrible or subpar to Fedor. I think it’s a really good match-up.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:02 PM EDT reply actions  

I am comparing their talents. We have to compare what’s comparable. No way am I saying that Brock has a better record than Fedor.

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can’t even compare talents in this instance. First and foremost, RINGS and the current UFC bouts were under completely different rules. Secondly, Brock Lesnar is a behemoth NCAA D-1 champion wrestler who comes in at 290 lbs. roughly at fight time. Fedor won the European and Russian Sambo Championships back in ‘97 and a couple of placings after that before hitting MMA, but the problem is that wrestling has LOADS of talent in the U.S. whereas Sambo isn’t huge in Europe or even in Russia. It isn’t attracting droves of collegiate athletes.

Talent-wise, I don’t see how it’s comparable at all. We’re talking about a young Fedor who came out with great Sambo without having to take on unbelievable competition at an amateur level with an older Brock Lesnar that has RIDICULOUS amounts of collegiate wrestling experience.

Change Fedor’s first 5 to his last five, and I could see a case potentially.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arlovski, Sylvia, HMC (2-2), Lindland (middleweight), Hunt (5-6). I think Brock looks extremely favorable in this case. Brock’s has fought far better competition here.

Hunt has no ground game and he would be destroyed by Lesnar. HMC, same deal here. Lindland, forget about it. Arlovski, one punch is all it takes. Sylvia, see HMC and Hunt.

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly.

Hence why I just said.. switch the first 5 to the last 5, and you may have a case. I think that’s much more of a better argument because those are recent fights. Basically, the argument is pushing Lesnar’s awesome strength of record versus Fedor’s current record.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get your point. However, I was trying to show why Brock is not just a 4-1 guy and why he’s so phenomenal when compared with Fedor, a guy who is universally agreed to the best heavyweight in the world. Not all 4-1 records are the same. Thus, why I compared his 4-1 record VS Fedor’s 4-1 record. I was disputing Sergio Non and Jake Rossen’s claim Lesnar is just 4-1 and shouldn’t even be considered a serious challenger to Fedor. Fedor’s 4-1 record is ordinary,even for the greatest heavyweight in the world, but Lesnar is absolutely ridiculous wit his 4-1 record.

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Listen, you can show that he’s phenomenal by simply showing his record. If someone is actually arguing that Brock isn’t good after crushing some of the guys he beat, they are completely and utterly wrong.

Non and Rossen are nuts then. I’m a complete Fedor fan at heart, and I love the guy, but I’d have serious doubts about Fedor beating Lesnar. I’d root for Fedor, and I’d want Fedor to win, but I’m not narrow-sighted enough to think Lesnar actually has no basis to fight Fedor based on two numbers with a win and loss column.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

@Leland Roling
…but the problem is that wrestling has LOADS of talent in the U.S….

I will admit I’m not sure how many collegiate wrestlers go on into the Olympics (and that may nullify my point). But looking at this Wiki article on wrestling at the 2008 Beijing Olympics show that the US got only 1 gold and a bronze and placed 6th on the medal tally.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Japan has a solid scene, but there are some guys out there in which their countries don’t have a large scene like the U.S. that do very well. Take Cuba for instance. The guy who beat Askren in the Olympics.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ironically Russia came first. So where does that leave Brock’s ‘world rating’ as a wrestler? Besides, he hasn’t wrestled in years and has put on a lot more muscle in the mean time. I’m not denying that 10 years ago he was a great wreslter. But wouldn’t time and age change some of that?

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock has not put on a lot more muscle. He is the same size now as when he wrestled competitively.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Aug 6, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was huge even then, but he looks leaner here than he is now

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

And this...
Now, with a chance to prove his worth with a 3-6 million per fight deal in the UFC, Fedor turned it down. Many of his supporters will argue that it’s not about money. When people claim it’s not about money, it’s always about money.

Yeah, give me a break. When people claim it’s not about money, it’s always about money? It really isn’t.

I understand the post, and it’s a good argument, but… I just don’t agree with some of what you said. If you simply were keeping to a point that hey… Brock didn’t fight garbage opponents, okay.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions  

M-1’s sole product is Fedor. Fedor’s biggest selling point is his aura of invincibility. If Fedor walks through Brock, he would be richer by millions, still be able to fund his M-1 expansion and retain his aura of invincibility while helping M-1 grow through the marketing and popularity of the UFC machine. But what if he loses? Without Fedor, what would be left of M-1? M-1 would be left with damaged goods and the Fedor brand destroyed. This cannot happen. They turned down big money in the short term to protect M-1 and Fedor in the long term. Money makes the world go around and all business decisions revolve around money.

And I backed up that first sentence with this. If you disagree, that’s fine. However, I didn’t toss it out with some sort of reasoning behind it.

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not arguing that point, I’m arguing the broadness of that statement. Fedor probably does want to protect his brand, he’s a co-owner.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

But doesn’t protecting his brand involve keeping it on sound financial footing? At the end of the day, this is about money. Maybe not in the “OMG I NEEDS MORE” or “how could he not take that deal” sense, but you’re kidding yourself if a guy trying to build a brand isn’t concerned about money.

by black dragon on Aug 6, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you read what I wrote at all? I said I wasn’t arguing that point, but the broadness of the statement.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why, other than money, would someone protect a brand?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 6, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s a pretty straightforward question – what’s the difference between ‘caring about money’ and ‘protecting a brand’? It’s like the difference between ‘caring about your family’ and ‘protecting your child’ – one falls under the other.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

by Derek Suboticki on Aug 6, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, it wasn’t a straight forward question because I was referring to “When people claim it’s not about money, it’s always about money.”

It doesn’t fall under the other in all cases all at all. What if I simply love something so much that I really just don’t care about the money. I have plenty of college friends who still play semi-pro hockey for under $20k a year for the simple fact that they love it. They all have degrees, one has a law degree.

That was my beef.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Would you be happy

If I edit my post with "When people claim it’s not about money, it’s almost always about money."

This seems like such triviality.

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It just sounds… like if I said.. man, I love my job… it’s not about the money… that there is noone out there like that. It also sounds like you are basically saying there is no possibility that Fedor is doing it for the promotion, not the money. I mean, there is a possibility they are dumb enough to think Fedor’s name is bigger than the UFC internationally, even though it’s proven to be wrong.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did read what you wrote and that’s what I commented on.

I saw that you weren’t arguing the point, but as you put it the broadness of the statement still applies in this context i.e a professional athlete. I should have clarified that earlier and apologize for that.

Maybe that was your point, that the context matters when that statement is made so therefore it can’t “always be true.” I concede that point to you.

by black dragon on Aug 6, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

MMA MATH

apples and oranges, rock/paper/scissors, ufc in 2008 vs rings in 2000

by judonerd on Aug 6, 2009 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Ryo Chonan >Anderson Silva

by Sokonojudo on Aug 6, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to be a pest about this topic but....

Do we also not take into consideration the talent gap between then and now either ?? The basic evolution of the game today ??

If anything it’s a harder case to support Fedor than it is to support him.. The amount of talent today is FAR superior than it was 8-10 years ago. The talent gap has thinned out. Before you only had 1-3 guys that really stood out in their division, for being able to adapt to the proper abilities of a total well rounded fighter.. Today everyone knows enough to make it a fight..

Even in comparing present resume’s over the last 5 fights.. The talent level that Brock had to face is far superior than what Fedor has had to face.. Combine the total number of fightsof all 5 of each of their opponents.. Tally them up and see who had a tougher road.. IT’s pretty clear in contrast that Brock cemented himself as the front runner of the HW division.. Just because you’re on a winning streak doesnt mean you’re officially the best out there.. IT’s all relevant as to who you’re winning against..

Here’s a key point to the debate..

Fedor fought Lindland in the list as 1 of his last 5 fights.. Can you give Brock a MW on his next fight and think of that win as being legit ?? I’m not dogging Fedor.. I dont care either way.. All I’m asking is whether or not you’de be willing to give Brock one of those type of matches and have it count on his record ???

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Do we also not take into consideration the talent gap between then and now either ?? The basic evolution of the game today ??

Another good point.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is how you break that equation down:

Total fights: 5

Total number of pro bouts between Lesnar’s Opponents: 93

Total number of pro bouts between Fedors Opponents : 71

It’s clearly definitive that Lesnar fought his first 5 fights against opponents with far greater experience as a whole thus making his wins more relevant in todays terms..

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also Fedor gets the added benefit on that equation of having to include all 5 fighters because they were all different opponents.. Lesnar fought Mir 2 times so I only added his total fights and thus cut’s Lesnar’s total to 4 fights in reality..

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really… I think to determine that.. you’d have to examine their opponent’s opponent’s records and add those up for that. Somewhat like a strength of schedule stat, but for total fights. You’d have to subtract out the fights in which they faced each other as well.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 6, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great point.. :)

But in which case Brock would have the advantage due to Herring on his list.. Herring has faced EVERY top HW in the MMA landscape.. Which says a lot about his experience factor.. Regardless of his win or loss column, the guy has faced EVERYONE at some point.. I dont mean that in a literal sense either as I know he hasnt faced Couture, AA etc.. but he had fought the best of the best during PRIDE and that has to count for something.. He shows up to fight every bout and has made all his fights somewhat competitive.. (outside the Brock fight)

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fedor lost his fifth fight by cut to a guy with a similar record to Heath Herring. The Fedor defenders will bring up the fact that this wasn’t really a loss. How could this be? Under the unified rules, when a fighter is unable to continue due to a cut, it is considered a loss.

Not if the cut is due to an illegal strike. Then it is what we like to call a no contest. The only reason a decision was rendered was because the match with TK was part of a tournament and there had to be a winner for the tournament to continue. That is why most people consider Fedor to be as of yet undefeated.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Well in that theory...

The same argument could be made for Brock too.. He had Mir pounded out..Mir rolled away and Brock tagged his head in mid stream..

Questionable stoppage and restart in a lot of peoples oppinions.. But as such we had to go with the rules in place at that time.. Like he said.. a loss is a loss and a win is a win…

Brock wasn’t beat.. He was caught… same kind of rule applies for Fedor.. He wasnt beat he was cut..

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

They got stood up...

but doesn’t take away that the submission wasn’t real. Besides Brock chose to stand over Mir instead of going into his guard. I will agree that Brock’s loss was controversial and definitely not a clean loss, but for analysis’ sake he did get tapped. No way was that fight a NC as in Fedor’s case. We don’t know what the outcome of that fight would be.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not to mention, in ALL honesty not ever one of those 31 fights has he faced top competition

Really? BigNog twice? CroCop at his prime?

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions  

How do you know CroCop is not still in his prime? Because he got KO’ed by a UFC fighter?

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not arguing that. I really hope he is. I’m a huge CroCop fan.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still doesn’t make for a very good argument. Who faces top competition every fight? You climb the ladder and then reach the top.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have a point about not facing top competition every fight, but it does have merit when discussing greatest of all time. Once you weigh two fighter’s respective records then it matters.

It’s like with boxing. The top 2 P4P guys are Mayweather and Pacquiao. At first glance, Mayweather looks like he has a stronger case for the top spot. But looking at their opponents, some of his wins don’t look as impressive as some of Pacquiao.

I believe that was the point. Sure you can’t fight 31 quality opponents, but has he even fought a third of that? A third would be roughly 10 guys.

Can someone honestly say he faced 10 guys worth noting? I’m coming up with Nog and Cro Cop, maybe Arvlosky compared to Brock’s, Mir and Couture.

by black dragon on Aug 6, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really don’t think Mir is that good of a fighter, but I guess time will tell if he really is as good as people think him to be. People say he got very luck in his victory over Lesnar. And his match against a half-dead Nog doesn’t really prove anything. Couture is really the only great fighter whom Brock has beaten. Mind you the weight difference between Couture-Lesnar was waaaaay more than Fedor-Lindland, so you tell me which is the ‘fairer’ fight, weight classes notwithstanding.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not just about the weight but the frame. A 5’5 guy can balloon to 300 lbs. That doesn’t make him a heavyweight. Mir is a heavyweight whereas Lindland is a middleweight.

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was talking about Couture, not Mir. He came into the fight at 220 which is less than some of the bigger LHWs come in at, with Lesnar coming in at 280/290.

by ludakrish on Aug 6, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regardless of weight

Your argument is a moot point about weight.. Fedor weighs at most 230.. Forrest walks around at a lean 240..

Lindland knew the weight difference just like Randy.. Brock did not cheat and made weight … But if you’re going to credit Fedor’s record with Lindland who fights at middle weight.. then you CANT ever use the weight issue with Brock.. Now reverse the scenario here… Brock is a HW (within the rules of the sport). But how would you credit him fighting Rich Franklin or Dan Henderson ?? It would be a one sided beatdown with Lesnar’s hand raised.. But it’s still a “w” right ?? so it “makes his record more appealing” when talking out of context..

PRIDE was 4 years ago.. Fedor did not fight the very best the HW division had to offer out of his 31 total fights.. All I’m saying is the game has changed leaps and bounds over the last 4-5 years alone.. Competition is getting stiffer and the likeliness of someone going on a 26 fight win streak today is NOT GONNA HAPPEN.. Most of Fedor’s wins were between 2002-2005.. The last 3 years he’s only had 4-5 fights.. Brock’s had as many in the last 18 months.. And fought higher caliber opponents than Fedor.. Padded records look impressive to the naked eye, but when you break them down, they’re really not all that great..

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks :)

Typo.. I meant “Not Every” fighter he has faces has been top competition..

by MMAuthority on Aug 6, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Not without co-promotion"

After the Internet turned against them…

“We would have signed it if it’s that much money.”

Either he is sticking with his principals or he’s all about the money. Which one is it?

by cyph on Aug 6, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

In terms of rankings...

It is universally accepted that FEDOR > BROCK at the moment

Given the available opponents for Brock, a couple of title defenses and the > will invert to <

Until then, is there much point in comparing records?

by MMAussie on Aug 6, 2009 7:17 PM EDT reply actions  

there isn't really a point in most of the topics people talk about in blogs..

in a sense that we can do without those topics.. But it’s fun, so i don’t see whats wrong with it..

by Anton Tabuena on Aug 6, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm

I agree that Fedor > Brock, for the time being.

But if Fedor is fighting and beating guys like Overeem, Rogers, Werdum, etc, then there’s no way Brock overtakes him in the ranking. I really don’t give a shit about the court of public opinion; there’s no way the still relatively green Velasquez/ Carwin, the aging Randy/ weathered Nog, or mercurial Mir/ Gonzaga/ Kongo are any better than Ubereem 2.0, Rogers who has a key win over a top 5 HW (much better win than Cain over Kongo, or Carwin over Gonzaga), or Werdum who was top 5 not too long ago.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 7, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Forgot to finish

But there’s no way that they’re any better comp in the UFC than is available to Fedor in the UFC.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 7, 2009 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Assuming Finkie didn’t lie his fucking ass off to Fedro, he chose to fight lesser opponents. He himself has said he doesn’t need to fight the best anymore. Well he can sit in the “I was the man back then” corner and let the world pass him by in my view.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Aug 7, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

This means Dos Santos is equal to Rogers

As he knocked Werdum out of top 5…

'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko

by Well Read Idiot on Aug 7, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except

Dos Santos knocked out a fat, out of it looking Werdum, whereas Rogers knocked out an in shape, determined looking Arlovski.

But yeah, i’d say that even Dos Santos’ win over Werdum was better than Cain or Carwin’s recent win

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 7, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

agree with every single fuckin thing you said

My contention is that the whole “co-promotion” bullshit was M-1’s way of cutting off negotiations with the UFC. They want direct control over fedor and who he fights, every fight, and they ain’t goin to get that with the ufc. With good reason, they see the untested Brett Rogers as a nice opponent for fedor, a guy who is not known for having a great ground game (altho I like Rogers and bet he is working hard at it). They aren’t stupid, they have seen Brock dominate Herring, knock out Randy, and dominate Mir, they know Brock is an extremely dangerous oppoenent, especially against a fuckin 230 pounder. My god, I have beat the fedor drum in years past, but the “hardcores” who seriously think that fedor would tool brock are kidding themselves. Fedor’s only chance would be his powerful hands on the feet, but he would get taken down so quickly, and then smothered and overpowered. People pretend that his fgihting HMC is comparable to fighting Brock… lol.

Werdum is B level (and a relatively “safe” opponent for fedor), overeem has not done anything in his career except bulk up quickly and suspiciously (while kneeing CroCop in the nuts), and Rogers is relatively untested (altho i think he has definite upside)- M-1 definitely wants control and to protect their one asset. Thank you cyph for articulating it well.

by chimps on Aug 7, 2009 4:23 AM EDT reply actions  

? Overeem hasn’t done anything in his career ? Yah , I’d like to see Lesnar try and stand with Badr Hari or Bonjaski , let’s see how that one goes. Overeem right now is probably the best heavyweight striker in mma based on his K-1 performances . As for him kicking Cro Cop in the nuts u forgot to add that he completely destroyed Cro Cop before that , seriously do u think Cro Cop had any chance of winning that one ? I’m not an Overeem nut-hugger but respect is due where respect is due the guy has proved to be a very dangerous heavyweight in the last 2 years . All his losses were as a LHW . I think it’s suspicious too how he became so big so fast but I hope he gets licensed to fight in america , and btw Lesnar looked VERY lean in his WWE era who knows what drugs he took .
As for Rogers – he’s a tough opponent , about the same record as Carwin.
Werdum is pretty average no doubt.
In short my point is – Fedor isn’t gonna fight Brock Lesnar that’s true but implying he’s gonna fight cans in StrikeForce is ridiculous…

by JoelMan on Aug 7, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lesnar would not or need to stand with Badr Hari or Bonjaski…or Hardonk or Pat Barry or Cro Cop or whomever- he would take them down quickly and likely smash them there. This isn’t K-1. Bonjaski and Badr Hari are not top tier MMA fighters.

So as for Fedor fighting guys in Strikeforce, we have Rogers, mediocre Werdum, and Overeem. Even if i accept your premise that Overeem is truly an elite HW, that is exactly one top guy for him to fight.

There is no legit argument that the UFC HW roster is not significantly deeper and better than Strikeforce. I also think Kongo is a pretty damn good fighter, he just got handled by a top wrestler.

by chimps on Aug 7, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re right , the UFC has better heavyweights I won’t argue there . And when I say better heavyweights I mean Lesnar , not anyone else . I don’t think Randy , going on 46-47 , is a better fight for Fedor than Overeem. And definitely not Mir .
 Only thing I said – u can’t shit on StrikeForce’s heavyweights that’s all.
Fedor’s contract in StrikeForce is for 1 year , 3 fights , which may force him to fight a lot on a short period of time , something he’s not used to – moreover it’s going to be in a cage , against a behemoth like Overeem or Rogers . I think Fedor is in for some tough fights that’s all I was saying . But you’re right , he won’t be facing Lesnar…

by JoelMan on Aug 8, 2009 6:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

cro cop and nog

i also find it funny that fedor “hardcores” bring up his wins over nog and cro cop as evidence of his greatness, but now claim they are over the hill and/or injured since they aren’t tearing up the ufc heavyweight division.

by chimps on Aug 7, 2009 4:36 AM EDT reply actions  

You’re kidding yourself.

I’m about as hardcore as they come, but I’ll never make the claim that Brock would get tooled by Fedor. I’m actually very hesistant to believe Fedor can overcome Lesnar’s size. But… I’ve never actually brought up the CC and Nog bouts as an indication. Both guys today are a shell of what they once were, and noone can deny that. It’s evidence that he was dominant back in the day, but today… I think Fedor might actually tool both those guys even worse than before.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 7, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Isn’t it convenient that they become a “shadow of their former self” after they came over to America, the land of drug testing? CroCop was still the premiere fighter before he fought in America. His fight with Sanchez was the first time we noticed he lost his killer instincts, not after he got KO’ed by Gonzaga. Nogueira looked bad in his fight with Herring, not the one with Mir.

Coincidences?

by cyph on Aug 7, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am beginning to think that PED’s are not the big difference, it is the at event drug testing that is keeping people from being on something during the fight that might be the difference.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Aug 7, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Filho, Barnett, CroCop, Nogueira, etc. Evidence of diminished performance in the United States (with plenty of built-in excuses, I may add). I don’t believe Fedor is a user. I believed he beat guys who used PED which is fairly impressive. However, how can one use a record of beating guys with asterisks next to their names to show that he is the best and no longer have to prove himself in America?

Werdum has shown that he is no superman in the UFC. Overeem is a Pride era fighter with a huge PED question mark. We also know he folds like a lawn chair once he gets hit. What does it accomplish for Fedor to keep beating guys with asterisk next to their names?

by cyph on Aug 7, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really. They both look like complete shit. Look at CC… he’s seeing the effects of age. We can make the PED argument all day, but we have no proof. Shell of former self applies, steroids or not.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 7, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasnt talking about you Leland, or what you have said about Cro Cop or Nog. I do wonder why people say Cro Cop is just a shell of himself from when he was in pride though. I personally think the game has evolved, many guys in pride were fairly one-dimensional, the ring suited his stand up game well, he didn’t have to fight many elite wrestlers who can take him down, and he just hasn’t evolved his game very much.

I think there is more legitimacy when it comes to saying nog is really over the hill, altho again, back in those days in pride a lot of guys didn’t have the same level of submission defense that top people have today. Nog looked bad against herring, was beaten to a pulp by silvia (until getting that sub when silvia became a bit overaggressive), and terrible against mir (when he was sick).

by chimps on Aug 7, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

he didn’t have to fight many elite wrestlers who can take him down

Coleman and Sakuraba?

by ludakrish on Aug 7, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

and randleman also- now, sakuraba is a wee bit smaller than cro cop, and coleman and randleman are about as one dimensional as you can get, but i did get ahead of myself there.

Leland says cro cop is a shell of himself. I just wonder if he was really that good to begin with. Hey I was a fan, and I don’t root against him. But the guy is very one dimensional in today’s game, and the game has evolved leaps and bounds as articulated by mmaauthority. He has the LHK and a left punch, that’s it folks.

by chimps on Aug 8, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

He was a sprawl and brawler. He had excellent takedown defence and used it to neutralize grapplers advantage. For crying out loud he had two victories (I’m discounting the first as it was via injury) over Josh Barnett, who juice or not, is an extremely good grappler. Enough so that he has a victory over Big Nog (he lost the second time round).

He has never looked as good in the UFC as he did in Pride, and that is a fact.

by ludakrish on Aug 8, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

In general, I just think its a bit weak to claim that fedor’s greatest wins were against guys who, now that they look a bit pedestrian, are all of sudden “old”, when I believe one guy is basically the same age as fedor and the other guy is just a couple of years older. And yes i know the argument about nog’s tread on his tires. It just seems a bit convenient.

None of this is to suggest that fedor ISN’T a great HW, I just happen to think that Lesnar’s size and wrestling ability would put fedor on his back and pound him out, unless fedor could catch brock at the beginning of rounds with a big punch.

I also think that M-1 intentionally ducked the ufc with the “co-promotion” excuse, and that he will have one top kickboxer to fight in Overeem, a good but relatively untested puncher in Rogers, and a mediocre Werdum.

by chimps on Aug 7, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ya see, I hate this discussion because the issue that stems from this discussion applies to EVERY SINGLE RANKING. We can say the same for a ton of people. If fighter A beats fighter B when fighter B was in his prime, but then fighter B just has a bad run of like 4 losses, suddenly… people say that fighter A’s win was bullshit.

Hence where the Florian ranking issue comes from. He beat Stevenson, but Stevenson has lost a lot now. I just don’t see it. If we did it this way, we’d have to change our thinking to this way. RIght now, it’s all mixed. Some people do this, some don’t.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Aug 7, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

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