Is the UFC Truly Dominant? A Brief Examination of the Boxing vs. MMA Debate
I've always been loudly outspoken in my feelings that there is no "war" between boxing and MMA. Since I was old enough to remember I have been a boxing fan. In fact, I got my start at SB Nation as a writer at BadLeftHook. And I've always been clear that I feel the constant MMA chorus of "boxing is dead" is very much overstated. However, there is a right way and a wrong way to approach the "boxing is healthy" argument and Paul Magno at EastSideBoxing very much takes the wrong approach with statements such as:
White will talk about the lack of star power in boxing, the corruption and the general degradation of interest in the sport. He'll talk until his segment is up and then post it all over the internet for even more to hear.
He'll never mention the fact that his company probably only has one or two fighters, to be generous, remotely recognizable to the average person on the street. One wonders who would draw more attention on a busy street corner in downtown Chicago, the threesome of Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao and Bernard Hopkins or the MMA trio of Georges St.Pierre, BJ Penn and Lyoto Machida...The answer to that is obvious.
This is a convenient method of picking and choosing fighters. If we're going to use the three most recognizable boxers to American fans in this situation why not remove Lyoto Machida from the debate and replace him with Brock Lesnar? Let's make it Floyd Mayweather, Manny Pacquiao and Bernard Hopkins vs. Randy Couture, Chuck Liddell, and Brock Lesnar. Now the debate shifts considerably in the other direction. I would say right now that those three, St. Pierre, Penn, Ortiz, Griffin, Mir, maybe even Machida and Anderson Silva all have a good amount of street recognizability, which is far more than boxing has at the moment.
Magno continues missing the mark:
However, it should be pointed out that attendance has generally been good at boxing events in the US. For instance, a weak card in Newark, New Jersey with the questionable Tomasz Adamek-Bobby Gunn main event, drew over 8,000 fans and the Vic Darchinyan-Joseph Agbeko card in Florida drew over 9,000 while, on the same night, the mega-promoted UFC 100 drew over 10,000 in Las Vegas.
A dominant UFC should've crushed two marginal boxing cards in secondary markets, but it didn't, at least not at the live gate.
Live boxing did do well in those two events, but in slow economic times cheap entertainment will draw. Where Paul's argument fails to hold water here is in ticket prices. The cost to get into UFC 100 was insane. I am willing to bet that a portion of the boxing cards were papered and that many of the tickets sold were discounted and in the $20-40 range. The live gate isn't attendance, it is money made from those attending and I'd be willing to bet that UFC 100 crushed those two cards combined.
The focus should be on the fact that boxing is obviously not dead when they're drawing nice local cards to shows that aren't strong. Not simply comparing live attendance numbers to UFC 100 and trying to pass off that the numbers were comparable. Again, it's sleight of hand of the highest order.
And more:
Now, take all that live action that would've been on cable TV and put it on one mega PPV per month, making it so that if you want to see live boxing, you have to order the show.
Take the month of August as an example. The boxing PPV for August (We could call it Boxing #1: Heat Stroke, or something equally catchy) would feature the following televised bouts:
Roy Jones vs. Jeff Lacy
Timothy Bradley vs, Nate Campbell
Juan Diaz vs. Paulie Malignaggi
Nonito Donaire vs. Rafael Concepcion
Juan Urango vs. Randall Bailey
Robert Guerrero vs. Malcolm Klassen
How many PPVs would that card sell if there were almost literally no way to see boxing aside from ordering the event? Would a card like this sell more than the average UFC PPV of 450-600,000? The answer would be a resounding "yes" and August is not even a particularly strong month this year in terms of competition.
I'm sorry, but no. A card headlined by Roy Jones (old and not a PPV draw) vs. Jeff Lacy (never was a draw) with Timothy Bradley vs. Nate Campbell as the big supporting undercard fight would not sell more than 600k buys at $50 a pop. The truth is, Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s next fight is the P4P best boxer in the world returning from retirement, to face a popular Mexican fighter, on Mexican Independence Day, with a very strong undercard and it will get outdrawn by a weak (relatively speaking) UFC card. Now this isn't a sign that boxing is dead or dying, but it does show that the above scenario likely isn't going to be a huge success on PPV. Add in the fact that those fights would combine for over three hours of in ring time and you'd probably be turning off the casual fans from tuning in.
The UFC model works for the UFC and never would for boxing because, and this is an important point, it is a different sport.
On the flip side Steve Cofield was speaking with PPV distributor Joe Hand over on Cagewriter where Hand said the following:
"People ask, 'Do you think UFC will kill boxing?' " Hand said. "It already has. Boxing's dead. "Look, the next [Floyd] Mayweather fight is the same night as UFC 103. Does that make any sense?"
The reality is somewhere between what Hand says and what Magno was trying to feed everyone. Boxing is very much alive and well internationally but here in the States it has some work to do. Boxing is, however, taking some of the right steps. Events like the upcoming Super Six tounament show a committment to outside the box thinking and more "best fighting the best" events. Also, less fights are being shown on PPV because the stars didn't exist to carry these expensive shows. HBO and Showtime are working to try and make new stars and while it hasn't really been successful yet, in the long run it is the best path back to a healthy sport.
Boxing isn't dead, but the UFC is clearly dominant in the combat sports world. To ignore that as a boxing fan is to ignore the learning points that can make your sport better, not to mention open yourself up for nasty countershots.
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Boxing crowds are strong in the US due to immigrants or first generation families in America.
Tomasz Adamek, who was mentioned in this article has a strong polish-american following. That is why his tickets get sold. He can’t sell tickets in Vegas and he can’t sell PPV’s.
The same can be said for Mexican-American and Puerto Rican fighters. And yes, I know PR is technically American. However, outside of those unique fanbases for each fighter, they struggle to sell tickets. And the people they are selling tickets to are older and older.
The last boxing event I went to featured a PR fighter. The crowd was made up of half 50+ year old guys and half PR. Once each of those cultures create the next generation and becoming more Americanized, their offspring is more likely to watch MMA then boxing.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 5, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
oh absolutely...
when I lived in Chicago any boxing card with latino fighters or polish fighters drew good numbers. even if they were just middling guys with .500 records. Local drawing power means very little in terms of “successful fighters” like you said
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 5, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way, i should point out, very good article. It covers basically all sides of the debate.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 5, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Piece...
I agree especially with ShowTime and HBO trying to build stars again, and have found myself more into boxing in the last few months than I have been in a long time… I think both(mma/boxing) can coexist, and are too different to compare…
I also think its interesting that UFC is killing boxing, but mma outside of it hasn’t been able to do it… So its really the branding that is drawing buys.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Aug 5, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As i have always said….. MMA isn’t popular, the UFC is.
I agree that Showtime & HBO are trying to rebuild. And the amount of “free” boxing they are giving away is out of necessity since nobody will purchase most of these guys on PPV.
While the boxing has been good, I question if they are past the point of rebuilding. They have lost a good majority of a younger generation. And that’s hard to get back.
And whil the fights have been really good on both channels, I don’t see the next Tyson, RJJ, Oscar De La Hoya, or even Manny Pacquiao. Very talented fighters, but nobody strikes me as a real star who can sell PPV’s. I guess time will tell…..
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 5, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The UFC on HBO would have helped a lot...
because they could have done similar stuff to what Showtime does where they talk about upcoming boxing on the MMA cards and vice versa. But it didn’t work out that way.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 5, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Things change. A hundred years ago professional wrestling was a widely followed legitimate combat sport. Boxing has been removed from high school athletic programs, while wrestling is still very popular. Guess which sport wrestlers will follow and train in. The martial arts places I see are all about karate or kickboxing or wrestling, not boxing. The tide has turned against boxing. It doesn’t have a foundation to build off of anymore.
by toxic on Aug 5, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The success of the UFC has been the best thing to happen for boxing fans in a while.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 5, 2009 12:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Used to love boxing...
…now I can’t watch it without wanting the fighters to go for the takedown. MMA is more natural, every fight I have ever been in or personally watched (from school to bars) resembles MMA and makes it much easier to relate to. I only watch MMA now, sorry my old favorite sport.
by ProCannonFodder on Aug 5, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In my own personal experience
I stopped watching boxing for two big reasons: the talent vacuum in the heavyweight division and promoters keeping the best fights from happening (and not just title fights, but all the way down the line). The heavyweight problem was always being blamed on football taking the best athletes, and I imagine that’s still the case. Regarding promoters and all the belts available, I don’t follow it close enough anymore to comment if that’s still true.
I hate to bring up the Russian who shall not be named, but I think what’s most frustrating about that situation is seeing this ugliness resurface in MMA.
by rzor on Aug 5, 2009 12:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boxing is dying
And its the way of thinking of guys in boxing linke Magno here that are the reason.
Rather than taking a long, hard look at where their sport is going and the underlying reasons they would rather take shots at MMA. Baseball is going through many of the same issues and will probably soon be in noticable decline.
by Razreshat on Aug 5, 2009 12:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really dont think dieing is the right term. I dont think boxing will ever die. Its shrinking. Theres a difference.
by Rabbit915 on Aug 5, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s growing in an international sense. hard to die when you’re growing it is hurting domestically, I wouldn’t argue that point. but it’s not dying
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 5, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boxing's big spin for 2009 ...
is that they’re putting more good fights on HBO and Showtime to give back to the fans. No, they’re putting more fights on cable because there’s no one outside of Manny Pacquiao and maybe Floyd who can compete with UFC on PPV anymore.
by andherewego on Aug 5, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
google trends
mma v boxing boxing = red
however
ufc vs boxing ufc = blue
we see that UFC has overtaken boxing in search volume but not press coverage. People look for UFC not MMA.
Brock vs Manny Close in searches, Manny runs away with press. Cant say boxing is dead when you put the biggest stars head to head.
by ryanwk628 on Aug 5, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boxing day is a holiday on Dec. 26 so any spike around that needs to be ignored.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 5, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha true! The media coverage vs the internet searches is crazy
by ryanwk628 on Aug 5, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mainly due to the branding of the WWE, it is being used as an adjective.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 5, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
PPV
and exposure is whats killing boxing in the states. People got greedy and started controlling image rights. I tried to post a 30 second clip from a meaningless title fight on youtube to use in my fan post on Bad Left Hook and got an email saying I was committing fraud (wrong crime buddy). However, when boxing was big it was on prime time. Kids could watch boxing and wanted to do it. (They wanted to see the stars, not garbage frdiay night fights on ESPN) The kids would go to the gym and learn to box. Fighting sports are great because a 150 lb guy can be a start (not so true in the NFL)… once boxing went to ppv, people had to go to their buddys house or the bar to watch fights. Kids didnt and lost interest. Boxing gyms closed down, and we dont have many good american fighters. MMA is doing it right by putting it on cable, but the UFC is really a ball buster about accessing their fights online. For either sport, if you want to see it grow take the Bellator approach to get kids watching it on youtube excited and 10 years from now you will see a flood of new 20something fighters.
by ryanwk628 on Aug 5, 2009 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the old days...
when we got the mix of shows on NBC, HBO, and PPV was how it should be now. Stars get made on TV and Cable and make their money on the PPV’s. That is how it is supposed to work. But as you said as soon as a guy is a moderate draw he was suddenly on PPV. They skipped over the part where you turn a guy from someone you WANT to see into someone you WILL PAY to see.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 5, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if you see them a month later… air it on ESPN classic or something. You need to spark interest in young kids if you want to sport to start coming back in the states.
by ryanwk628 on Aug 5, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know … I know far too many people who skip boxing PPVs because they know HBO will show it a week later. So they never spend any money on boxing (and it’s not like they’re getting HBO only for boxing), which doesn’t help the sport in the long run.
by andherewego on Aug 5, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The kids! haha my issue is that kids are not exposed to boxing enough to develop an interest.
by ryanwk628 on Aug 5, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Impossible it's unpossible...
An evenhanded look at boxing and mma without shitting on one of them?
But seriously, nice article.
by Tonley on Aug 5, 2009 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hate Boxing elitest. There are so many reasons why MMA is a superior combat sport than Boxing.
20-30 years from now it wil indeed be dead. Believe it.
GSP: I pulled my groin.
Greg Jackson: I don't care Georges! HIT HIM WITH YOUR GROIN!
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 5, 2009 1:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
as opposed to mma elitests? Boxing is huge in spanish speaking countries, and the results are usually more predictable because there are less freak KOs and the fights last longer (such is the nature of 4oz gloves) I think the sports can coexist. There are certainly athletes who are more suited towards one or the other.
by ryanwk628 on Aug 5, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When UFC and WEC make their debuts over in Mexico you better believe the amout of new Mexican boxers will be on the decline in the coming years. =)
GSP: I pulled my groin.
Greg Jackson: I don't care Georges! HIT HIM WITH YOUR GROIN!
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 5, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UFC aired UFC 100 free of charge in Mexico. Got something like 25 million viewers.
'Ello G'vnor!
by IHateMMA on Aug 5, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baloney…I live and work in Mexico at the moment…25 million viewers would mean a quarter of the entire population was watching…at 11pm on a Saturday night?
The UFC in Mexico is almost a non-entity…people don’t talk about, know little about it and would just prefer to follow boxing and their own national heroes…
Not a knock on the sport of MMA, but its a reality that the UFC has American, white males, 16-24…boxing, pretty much has the rest of the world right now.
by paul_magno on Aug 7, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t stand what guys like Magno are doing when they write crap like that. He knows exactly what he’s doing with his sleight of hand. It’s really irritating and frustrating.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 5, 2009 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A little irritating when someone actually calls “BS” on all the crap sleezy Dana White and his pet Rogan dish out to promote their shows, huh?
It’s about time boxing stood up for itself and stopped letting the UFC grab the headlines with their garbage…I suggest you read the entire article and not the cherry-picked stuff that Brookstone chose to use…
I’m merely point ing out the facts and, unfortunately, bursting some adolescent feelings of grandeur along the way…
by paul_magno on Aug 7, 2009 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since Mr. Brookhouse is harder to reach than Obama, I figured I’d write the response on Bleacher Report and pray that he can navigate around the crayon marks on his screen to get here
It’s about time boxing stood up for itself and stopped letting the UFC grab the headlines with their garbage…I suggest you read the entire article and not the cherry-picked stuff that Brookstone chose to use…
Crayon marks on his screen? How funny. At least he was able to get your name right
by StevenGiles on Aug 8, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good thing that this fight is here to save boxing..
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 5, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Better yet: Brock Lesnar, Chuck Liddell & Tito Ortiz (even more recognizable than Couture)
The only 3 boxers who could come close to matching that in terms of recognizability would be Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali & Roy Jones Jr.
And I still think the UFC guys would get more attention.
Keep Swillin',
Bruz
by Bruz on Aug 5, 2009 3:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
…but unfortunately for both tho, if Hulk Hogan, The Rock & The Big Show were all standing next to each other…
Keep Swillin',
Bruz
by Bruz on Aug 5, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
it’s like how I could say “If the Williams sisters and Pete Sampras were hanging out on a street corner more people would recognize them than the entire starting pro bowl offensive line from the NFL” it doesn’t mean that tennis is a bigger or more legit sport than football
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 5, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea what Pete Sampras looks like.
If I saw him I would think, who is that guy and what is he doing with those horses.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Aug 5, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when is this debate going to end you don’t compare football to basketball. MMA and boxing are two different sports you don’t have to like one more then the other to be considered a fan
by drano on Aug 5, 2009 8:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
True, you don’t have to bash another sport to show your fandom for yours, but when the sports are that similiar, you’re going to see it. People compare how much they like basketball/soccer/footbal all the time, i.e, who has the better conditioned athletes.
The only thing worse than that article are the comments. I mean, there are people saying boxers are real fighters and MMA fighters are just bums off the street. No, boxers are BOXERS! Boxing is one discipline of fighting. Once you add in kicks, knees, elbows, slams and takedowns the boxer can’t cope with that.
by black dragon on Aug 6, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An Open Letter to Brent Brookhouse
I’m Paul Magno, the author of the piece from which you chose to cherry-pick. I’ve had to wait a day for my membership to be activated in order to actually send this, but I’d like you to read my response to your fence-sitting (but not really) article:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/231306-and-open-letter-to-brent-brookhouse-and-the-ufc
by paul_magno on Aug 7, 2009 2:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice article. And by nice I mean “Piss poor” and article i mean “whiny rant”. Learn to discuss without using insults and hyperbole and maybe people will take you seriously.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 8, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad Brent Brookhouse didn’t have the same courage that you are so proudly displaying here…It seems that Mr. Brookhouse is one of those MMA-loving tough guys who likes taking public shots at people, but only if they think that there’s no way they can ever answer back…Well, let it be known that I made the attempt to engage and Brookhouse didn’t feel equipped for the debate…
Typical…
by paul_magno on Aug 8, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You didn’t do shit other than write inflammatory pieces trying to get people to look at you. Brent’s email is on the front page, takes about 2 seconds to see it. Every single thing you have said about him is you projecting your own motivations and weaknesses on someone else.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 8, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
let it be known that I made the attempt to engage and Brookhouse didn’t feel equipped for the debate…
Typical…
Perhaps it’s because you don’t fall into the 18-24 male demographic, but wouldn’t the best approach to engaging in discussion with Brent have been through email? Or at the very least, initiated through email?
It will be interesting to see how you spin this now that Brookhouse has responded in the comments of your article and therefore must be “equipped for the debate.” Though I’m sure you’ll ignore the actual rebuttal and continue to trumpet your own misguided analysis (e.g. comparing boxing’s long storied history to the current state of MMA, rather than the current state of both sports).
by Estrada on Aug 8, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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