Reflections on Antonio Rodrigo Minotauro Nogueira Post UFC 102
by Luke Thomas on Aug 31, 2009 12:25 PM EDT
in MMA News
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I was one of the many who discounted his capability before the fight, but am now forced to eat crow this Monday morning. Fine by me, really. Couture vs. Nogueira was as much as about Nogueira redeeming himself as it was about recognizing Couture's diminished capacity to perform at the highest level. But, it is worth shining a little extra spotlight on the very laudable turnaround Nogueira was able to pull off Saturday night. Mike Chiappetta chimes in:
After Frank Mir knocked out Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira last December, the whispers immediately started that Minotauro was done, that he was too slow and had taken too much damage over the years. Some even suggested that Nogueira, who was only 32 at the time, should retire.
Somehow, many of us forgot that his whole career -- his whole life, really -- has been about comebacks.
As a child, Nogueira almost died after being run over by a truck. He still bears the scars as a reminder. As an adult, he routinely takes a beating and finds a way to win. The guy has more sequels in him than the Harry Potter franchise. Sure, his hands aren't quite as quick as they were a few years ago, but his jiu-jitsu is still a loaded gun to respect and fear.
Will Nog ever capture another major title? Who knows, but Saturday night was a reminder to bet against him at your own risk.
Yahoo's Kevin Iole disagrees with me by contending age was no factor:
Nogueira was a little bit better than Couture in every aspect on Saturday, pounding out a unanimous decision in a rousing battle that was chosen as the show’s Fight of the Night. It was the second consecutive loss for Couture, but his age clearly wasn’t an issue. He was beaten on this night by a guy who was highly motivated to quiet his critics.
"I never worked in my life for a fight like I did for this one," Nogueira said. "I have a lot of respect for Randy. He’s been around for 12 years and fighting everyone and that’s why I trained a lot, so I could make a good show."
Nogueira looked like a beginner in his loss to Mir at UFC 92. He suffered from a staph infection and spent seven days in the hospital less than a month before the fight. On the day he got out, he tore the meniscus in his left knee.
The reason Nogueira is one of the most popular fighters in the history of mixed martial arts is that he’s the type of person who said nothing to anyone about his condition and came out and slugged with Mir as long as he was able to do so.
"He’s a very game, very durable guy," Couture said of Nogueira. "He has a great jab and he followed it with some pretty good right hands. I’m not terribly surprised he fought the way he did."
I am in no position to take away anything from Nogueira's performance. Judging by how well he fought on Saturday it's perfectly reasonable to suggest a younger Couture wouldn't necessarily have fared any better.
But I can't help noticing there is some obvious decline in Couture. The hook and straight punches Nogueira landed standing didn't have half the steam that Rizzo's had when he fought Couture yet did far more damage. Moreover, the reflexive speed I believed Couture had prior to the bout didn't really present itself. Couture's punches seemed slow to retract, which left him flat-footed and positionally right in front of Nogueira for a counter-attack.
Still, the massive upshot of the fight is impossible to ignore: a potential Nogueira vs. Lesnar fight now has legitimate intrigue and value in the UFC heavyweight division. And while Couture's best days are likely behind him, the carte blanche of opponents he can choose to face while he amasses even more deserving wealth is enough to console even the most disappointed fan.
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Nogueira, a prime example of a great chin.
by Nick Thomas on Aug 31, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nog took a few shots, but it’s not like Randy has hands of steel either. He has never KO’d anyone in his career. TKO, yes but no KO.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
Best tasting crow I have ever eaten personally. Awesome fight.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
So how long before NOG gets a chance at crack at Brock? I think he matches up the best with the HW champ, more so than all the other HW’s.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
Really? :\
What do you think Nogs face would look like is Lesnar or Carwin was hitting him like that instead of Couture (who has never been known as a power puncher)?
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
I think he’s referring more to his submission skills. Both Brock and Shane are relatively inexperienced wrestlers, and Nog’s sub skills are amazing. Style-wise, they’re actually a good fit for him if he can avoid his face being turned into hamburger meat.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
WTF ???
Brock an inexperienced wrestler ??? lol
Am I honestly missing something here ??
I though a NCAA Division 1 record of 106-5 meant he was in deed experienced ??
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
In a Hundred and eleven of those fights ...
… he never had to defend subs and strikes at the same time. This is a big difference. One wrestlers use to try and psyche-out BJJ cross-overs all the time because they know its a game changer.
It was a typo on his part..
We’ve established that.. :)
But it still doesn’t change the fact that it has nothing to do with his wrestling, because he is indeed experienced..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
"Both Brock and Shane are relatively inexperienced wrestlers"
FAIL…Im hoping that you meant inexperienced at BJJ
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
Both Brock and Shane are relatively inexperienced wrestlers
errr wut?
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Obviously I misphrased that. They’re relatively inexperienced in MMA, and they’re wrestlers. their submission defense is probably not elite as of yet.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
No, it wasn't
Unless you’re being a picky patty
by Patrick79x on Aug 31, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Obviously I misphrased that. They’re relatively inexperienced in MMA, and they’re wrestlers. their submission defense is probably not elite as of yet.
In the case of Lesnar, we have already learned that he doesn’t need any BJJ defense. His size and strength make up for it, as he can just lay on a guy and hold him down with one arm, while pounding him with the other. I would imagine Carwin could do the same.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
He was able to do that to Frank Mir, but will he be able to do it to Big Nog? “Not need any BJJ defense?” The size/strength angle is the same argument they used for the first generation of big wrestlers – Coleman, etc. I simply don’t believe it’s true. Size plays a factor for damn sure, but so does skill. And Nog’s the best HW in the world off his back.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Honestly, I think the way Nog lets people punch him, it won’t even come to that. His head will be gravy before it ever gets to the ground.
That said, if it would go to the ground, yes I do think Brocks strength with his wrestling pedigree would be able to neutralize Nog.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
I agree
I think Brock’s wrestling and strength outweigh Nog’s submissions.. Not to discredit Nog’s JJ.. But sometimes size and strength become heavy factors & all Brock needs is a little defense training in sweeps and base control (which he show’s he has natural wrestling ability to do so) & he can shut Nog down on JJ.. Nog’s JJ is great, but it’s not flashy.. He uses it it pretty slow in setups.. He bait’s you in by looking in active on the bottom then pulls a sweep from full guard.. All you have to do is stay outside his full guard and control the hips with a wide base.. Brock has about the widest base I can think of with super strength..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I think it’s a little hasty to say Lesnar doesn’t need any BJJ defense based on beating one BJJ guy (after losing by submission to that same guy in an earlier bout).
The way he did it. He was able to just lay on top of him and hold him in half nelson with one hand. That was the entire extent of his BJJ defense.
You don’t need BJJ defense if you can stop the guy from trying any subs to begin with.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Sure, but “the guy” in this case is Frank Mir and only Frank Mir so far. I’d like to see him pull off the same thing on another guy at least one more time before I conclude that he simply cannot be swept or submitted from the bottom.
He certainly made it look impossible in the Mir fight, you’re right about that.
The half-guard half nelson isn’t some big secret. It can be countered. Yes, Brock’s size made it very effective, but that was only against Frank Mir. Let him beat a couple of other skilled BJJ guys with it, then pronounce it as special. Until then, it was just a good strategy against a good opponent.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
The half-guard half nelson isn’t some big secret. It can be countered. Yes, Brock’s size made it very effective, but that was only against Frank Mir.
You do know that Mir is very good at BJJ, right? So not sure what you mean by “only against Frank Mir”.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Big Nog is WAY better than Frank Mir. And I meant what I said – Lesnar used it against one opponent. It was a good gameplan against Frank Mir. That doesn’t mean it’s a good gameplan against Big Nog. Like logic said before, Lesnar might want to avoid top control completely in this fight and stick to the standup. Nog’s that good.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
The problem though
Is that Brock is strong enough to stand up at any point.. He wont be held in full guard.. So even if it goes to the ground because Nog pulled guard.. Brock wont just stay there like most wrestlers and get baited into a submission.. He’s well aware of Nog & Mir’s ability to pull submissions from the bottom. But it needs to be set up from full guard.. The only way to sweep someone from half guard is to let them over pursue you in transition.. Brock doesn’t do that.. He stabilizes his base from half guard before ever trying to be offensive.. He did it in the Herring fight, the Mir fight & a brief moment in the Couture fight..
Brock’s a cerebral fighter believe it or not.. He’s looking to stabilize his base before ever opening up..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I’d like to point out that I’m a huge Lesnar fan, first off. And what you said does make a lot of sense. All I’m saying is that the half guard position that he uses, while effective, CAN be countered. That’s all. If anyone’s smart enough to do it, it’s Nog. I think I’ve made my point, so I’ll move in.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
;-)
I completely agree with you about getting swept from half guard.. It is very possible..
It’s just not a likely candidate at this point because from what we’ve seen from Lesnar is that he doesn’t over pursue from top position.. He stays compact & uses his weight to neutralize the bottom fighters hips eliminating a clear option for the switch or scramble..
The only good thing about this tactic is that if a fighter on the bottom wants to get up he has a better chance because Brock allows the half guard and it’s easy to scramble away from him rather than into him for a sweep.. That’s how Randy and Heath were able to get up from the bottom.. He only uses his base to keep you from rolling into him.. It opens up the ability to slide away from him because he doesn’t hold you down as much as he does flat.. He’ll let ya go if you’re scrambling away from him and then look to regroup with another TD..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I know Nog wound up winning the fight, but exchange Sylvia for someone with Mighty Joe Young power.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Someone that generates more power from chest on chest too
…
Brock doesn’t posture up like that to allow space for sweeps and submissions.. He stays tight.. chest on chest and still generates massive amounts of force from tight short distances..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Absolutely
I’m sad to admit it, but the day of “me big, me hammerfist” seem to be over. He learned he can generate a ton of power in in a short distance, with almost no leverage.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
No, it isn't.
We’re talking Nog vs Lesnar, and how Nogs noggin would fare with Lesnars paws swiping at him rather than Sylvias.
Unless you seriously saying that you think Nog can handle 2+ rounds of Lesnar getting free and clear shots rained down on his head, and pull out a sub? Because that’s the point, not who won the Sylvia-Nog fight…
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
I hope we find out soon enough. But Nog has made a career out of doing exactly that.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
it’s pointless debating ppl that think mere strength is enough to wip everyone in a division. these ppl are going crazy for a guy that has a 4-1 record. unbelievable. just wow!
oh
please don’t mistake me for a Lesnar fan in anyway.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
I hope we find out soon enough. But Nog has made a career out of doing exactly that.
Me too. After Carwin wins the belt, let Nog and Lesnar fight ;)
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Normally I agree with ya Myth but
Not here. I think Lesnar is better that Carwin in most areas. I really dont care who wins. I just wanna see both of the take some big shots so we can really see who has a chin between the two.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
I just wanna see both of the take some big shots so we can really see who has a chin between the two.
This is the first Lesnar fight that has any interest at all for me. This is the first guy he won’t be able to simply muscle around, so this should be a good way to find out where he really is.
And yes, I"m hoping both guys show up ready to fight… I don’t want any excuses or outside stuff. :(
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
In what planet, Mir is younger than Nog, stronger than Nog, and has equal if not better BJJ and got tooled by Lesnar. The idea that someohow beating Couture makes Nog a threat to Brock at this point is pure delusion after Lesnar’s last performance.
Yea, there’s no way Mir has close to the MMA BJJ that Nog has. The judo chops have made it look pretty, but it’s not on Nog’s level.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Says who?, Mir has shown a versitility and nastyness in his submissions that Nog has never shown. When it applies to mma once Mir grabs a hold of an arm or a leg it’s pretty much over.
dude, look at both resumé’s, nog’s + mir. look at the ppl nog has submitted, and then look at who mir has submitted. you want to talk about versatility? nog has pulled out more varieties in submission than mir, but maybe that’s because nog has over 20 more fights over mir? maybe in the next decade mir will be able to catch up, we’ll see… until then, he’s no way near nog’s level of bjj.
Again what in the world are you basing that on?, Mir came into the UFC submitting guys with more experience and better bjj credentials that him. Mir’s reputation has been set as far as submissions let’s stop the fanboy praise and look at facts Mir has nothing to catch up to he’s rep speaks for itself.
LMFAO
@ lesnar’s size and strength making up for bjj defense… some ppl are just that delusional or not know much about bjj’s real purpose.
Where was Bjj defense to Lesnars half gaurd offense? Mir was handcuffed and beaten. If Nog gets into the same position he will end in the same result.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
so fighter A couldn’t do X to fighter B, therefore fighter C has no chance in hell of pulling that off eh? well that settles it, what is the point of even having lesnar fight anyone anyways?
Please note that Mir and Nog are two completely different fighters, and their accomplishments or set backs should not be compared to one another. what makes you think Nog will end up in the same position Mir was in the first place, and if he does, what makes you think he can’t get out?
Please explain to me what Nog would do different in that position to get out? And I said “if” Nog gets in that position not “when”. I do, Tim Sylvia told me after that fight that Matt Hughes could get him (Tim) in that position and he (Tim) was powerless…That’s a guy that weighs 70-80 lbs less than him. I personally think Nog will be TKO’d should this fight ever happen.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
well that’s good enough for me! if matt hughes can get timmey on that position and timmey (who knows nothing of the ground game for the exception of take down defense) couldn’t get out… wow, so many wrestlers do that in training eh, wonder why we never see that in MMA (with the exception of the Mir fight).
I personally think brock would get subbed should this fight ever happen, but that’s just me :P
I was just explaining the dominance of the position. I realize they difference in skill. I have never seen the position used before in an actual mma fight
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
me either, which is why I don’t think brock will be effective using it again. we’ll see, time will tell.
I hope to see them fight tho, someone is bound to beat Lesnar. It would be a great win for Nog.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
it would be his biggest win ever, not because I think lesnar would be his toughest opponent (I really think he won’t), but just on name alone, lesnar is huge. That would definitely place big nog on the highest place ever in his career to date. I’m not saying this would be an easy fight, no doubt Nog would have some serious issues coming in this fight, but me being his all time #1 fan, I have to cheer for him :P
I know quite a bit about all area's of MMA..
What I have seen from Brock was “BJJ defense” based on utilizing his wrestling base to keep fighters flat that lay underneath him..
In BJJ you have to be able to shift and move your hips to generate leverage and openings.. Brock used sheer strength in his arms and the base of his hips to keep Mir flat.. I’d say that’s a great equalizer for Lesnar while he learns on the fly technique.. Lesnar dominated a BJJ black belt with more than 4 years pro MMA fight experience with having less than 2 full years of BJJ training.. I’d say it’s hard to argue against his strength & size.. Size and strength matter more than you think in today’s MMA.. Thus the reason we have weight classes..
Lesnar’s wrestling is far superior than most guys BJJ levels.. Add in the fact that he has the size, strength, power and agility to move just as fast and it’s not going to be so easy to submit him anymore.. He’s only getting better & if you think because Nog bested Couture that means something in a fight with Lesnar, you’re the crazy one… lol
I’ll give ya the fact that Nog has a good a chance as any to utilize his BJJ and “catch” Lesnar.. But so does Carwin have the same ability to “catch” Lesnar with a punch.. The thing is though, Brock’s not just going to come in guns blazing like his first UFC fight anymore.. He plays a very tight game and he knows his limitations.. Because of his wrestling pedigree, he will always ultimately dictate where the fight is going to take place 95% of the fights he is going to be in.. Nog has the advantage in pure boxing and submissions.. The rest of it goes to Brock all day long.. I’ll take Brock in a clinch with Nog everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.. Brock has heavier hands, better wrestling, and is faster than Nog.. Will Nog be able to hold up with the amount of punishment he is going to take if he were to fight Lesnar ?? Because he is going to have to take at least some sort of punishment from Lesnar before he ever gets in a position to pull off a sub..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Because of his wrestling pedigree, he will always ultimately dictate where the fight is going to take place 95% of the fights he is going to be in..
hey, it’s nice to know you can tell the future, can you let me know when I’ll get my million?
From how I see it, Big Nog stands a good chance against Brock becuase of his Jiu Jitsu skills. A striker like Kongo would just get taken down and GnP’ed by Brock. Brock has the best wrestling in his division, so I do not think another wreslter will be able to do shit to him. That just leaves us with Nog. Also, I think the JJ of Nog is head and shoulders above Mir’s, so don’t discount the JJ.
for all intents and purposes, just consider all my posts as works of satire.
however
Nog is top game JJ, and Mir is guard JJ, if i’m not mistaken. If Nog fought Lesnar, which position do you think he’d be in more?
by Austin Martin on Aug 31, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Big Nog’s BJJ is great everywhere and in all situations. Mir, on the other hand, is known mostly as an offensive BJJ fighter.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Aug 31, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm thinking..
It depends how the Lesnar / Carwin fight turns out.. I think they’ll wait and see how the Rothwell / Valasquez fight goes and then how Mir / Congo fight goes.. I would think a rematch of Mir / Nog needs to happen first before he gets a shot at the belt, especially if Lesnar beats Carwin..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
We're fickle. "Couture's diminished capacity to perform at the highest level."
Come on Luke.
Randy’s the ONLY HW that has hung with Brock.
I re-watched his Brock fight and, unlike Mir, wasn’t in peril the ENTIRE fight. Randy held his own.
One fight lost to Nog, does not deem Couture from having a “diminished capacity to perform at the highest level.”
Randy is a stud in HW and LHW classes.
I think what he was implying was..
Randy has diminished to a certain degree.. Randy of 2004 was far better concerning athleticism in comparison to the Randy of 2008. The Randy of 2008 has far better fundamental skills covering all aspects of MMA then he did when he had better reflex timing and his body was a big younger..
It’s not to say he can’t be competitive.. His skills have bridged the gap that his athletic traits have diminished.
What would be great was having a Randy in 2005 with all the knowledge and fundamentals of MMA that he has now..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
It is 2009
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 1, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not. We’ll see. But we’re talking about rapid degeneration in the late 40s of his athletic career where the onset of decline is precipitous. Moreover, when we compare what Randy was once clearly able to do with something he is now clearly not able to do (absorb punches), we have to evaluate a fighter. I’m not jumping bandwagons. Everyone’s always watching Randy for signs of decline and no one wants to pull the trigger on saying “Ah ha! NOW he’s done!” and neither am I. He’s not done, but is he capable of performing as well as he historically has? Not according to what he turned in in the Nogueira fight.
And I wouldn’t be so quick to suggest he’s going to be just fine at LHW either. He’s doing a lot of fighting at HW because of speed advantages, but I’m not sure those will carry over to LHW when they aren’t doing a tremendous amount of good at HW.
Randy at LHW
would be good for one of fights.. He wont last with the divisions elite anymore..He has a slight chance of pulling off the upset on any given night, but the odd’s of him dropping down and workign his way up aren’t in favor..
Like Luke said.. His speed and ability to absorb punishment are declining such as the way Chucks have.. There comes a point in time where you’re physically able to compete, but not capable of taking the amount of punishment you once could …That is where these guys are falling into:
Hughes
Couture
Liddell
Wandy
etc..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Personal issue?
I’m surprised no one has said anything about Couture’s personal issues (divorce etc.) playing a role in fight preparation as was speculated before the fight.
I think that had something to do with taking off some of his mojo come fight time as it did with Liddell. But I do think the better fighter won.
Because he is always involved in a divorce before a fight. Par for the course
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Sep 1, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
If Fedor didnt exist Nog would be the greatest HW of all time.
This guy has never turned down a fight or picked his opponents. One of the greatest stories in MMA and probably the greatest “fighter” (mind, body and spirit) in history.
by mmalogic on Aug 31, 2009 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Nog has the better strength of schedule and beating Nog is why Fedro is considered the best. It certainly isn’t the rest of Fedro’s record.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
No My point was Nog beat crocop first and then Fedor fought him… Fedor didnt want to fight sapp so Nog took the fight. If I remember correctly Fedor or his camp pulled out of the crocop fight so Nog took it also.
Nog has also beaten Barnett, Werdum, Sergei, etc…
Nog’s opponents were better than fedors.
Although Fedor will go down as the best HW ever (rightfully so) Nog will go down as having the best legacy.
In fedor’s defense, he didn’t want to fight cro cop because he had a broken hand at the time, so they gave the fight to big nog. That’s a good reason not to fight, but I agree that Nog’s resumé is much better than fedor’s, even though he lost to him two times out of three (the second fight was actually pretty even on both sides before fedor got cut).
I sure would like to see them both going at it again, given that it has been years since they fought (and I’ve gone from the biggest fedor fan to the biggest hater).
Big Nog vs Cro Cop is the best fight in MMA’s short history, IMO. Everything from the atmosphere, the fighters involved and where they were in their respective careers, the finish, etc. All of it combined to make an extremely dramatic moment in time.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Aug 31, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
(my comment copied from another post to get your thoughts):
who’s next for NOG?
Another step in the evolution of the UFC is building up contenders better. There is enough depth now in all the divisions to have these guys enter title fights with alot more steam.
For example if Anderson fought Nate or Dan now it would be ok but there would be alot more steam If Anderson fought the winner of Dan vs Nate.
Cain is next in line so Mike Rome suggested Cain vs Nog instead of Cain vs Ben Rothwell. I agree 100%.
The steam for the title fight of Brock vs the winner of Cain vs Nog will be alot bigger then.
If Nog vs Cain cant be worked out… I think then you have to do Nog vs Mir and get Kongo a different opponent. If Mir wins then you can do Mir vs Kongo as the next eliminator for the title shot. If Nog wins then he gets the next title shot.
So Ideally the line to the champ would be:
1. Carwin
2. winner of Cain vs Nog
3. winner of Mir vs Kongo (if kongo wins). If Mir wins:
a. Mir vs the winner of Dos Santos vs Crocop.
or
1. Carwin
2. winner of Cain vs Rothwell (if cain wins)
3. winner of Mir vs Nog
4. winner of kongo vs the winner of dos santos vs crocop.
What are your thoughts for Nog’s next fight?
I like the idea of
Nog vs. Mir 2
I think it makes a lot of sense..
Let Kongo fight one of the newcomers or Gonzaga.. Cain could still fight Rothwell and if he has a great showing then let him advance.. If not then let him get one more fight afterwards.. Maybe winner of Nog/Mir or Dos Santos/Cro Cop ??
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I don’t see what Velasquez has done to earn a shot at a guy of Nogueira’s stature. He’s beaten four basically unranked dudes, Jake O’Brien, Cheick Kongo, who I think is a fringe top 15 at best. I’d rather see him fight the winner of Cro Cop/Dos Santos, if he has to be anywhere near the title picture at this point. The fact that Cain comes up more than Dos Santos as a future title challenger is puzzling to me.
Also
Cain is 240 lbs with a wrestling base, so we get the same crap we got last time. Wrestler vs Wrestler the bigger, stronger guy wins. And Brock will have 40+lbs on muscle on him.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Cain is also a little soft at 240
Wouldnt be surprised at all if he dropped to 205 while hes young
by Austin Martin on Aug 31, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
My only guess as to why Dos Santos seems unreasonably low on the totem pole right now is because he’s a Black House guy, and they’re reserving title shot opportunities for Minotauro.
I am guessing it is because
he has fought twice in the UFC maybe? Do you think the UFC is holding or reserving title shots for Nog?
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I think that at this point Nog is ahead of Dos Santos in line for a shot (and rightfully so), and the UFC might be trying to avoid a scenario where the champ and the #1 contender are from the same camp.
Other guys have gotten title shots with less than two fights in the UFC (Rampage, Lesnar, Henderson hadn’t fought in the modern UFC and he got consecutive shots in two weight classes). Anyway I’m not necessarily suggesting that he should be fighting for the title right now—but why go from the Werdum knockout to Stefan Struve and aging Cro Cop? Why not match him up with Carwin or Velasquez? He’s got a crowd-pleasing style, so the Black House thing is all I can think of.
Well I think
that had Nog lost that could have raised Dos Santos’ stock significantly. But why is CroCop bad for him? Look what a win over CroCop did for Gonzaga! And sorry, but you cant compare Rampage or Lesnar getting quick title shots to Dos Santos not getting one. The term name value goes a long way in business.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I’ll give you Lesnar, but I’m not entirely sure that Rampage had name value amongst casual fans before the UFC got behind him. I’d bet that for a lot of folks, his UFC debut may as well have been his MMA debut.
Cro Cop is a step back (though not the extent that Struve was) because Dos Santos already beat Werdum, who beat Gonzaga, who beat Mirko. Since losing to Gonzaga and Cheick Kongo, CC has only beaten the likes of Tatsuya Mizuno and Mostapha al-Turk. So I see it as high risk/low reward for Dos Santos, in terms of the genuine value of the win.
I agree
If that had been Brock.. Randy would have been done in the first when he was dropped..
Nog is great, but he too has holes in his game.. He beat Sapp because Sapp gassed & knew nothing of submission or wrestling basically.. Brock wont gas and will put him on his back.. The thing is Brock does not go into full guard.. He always stays in half guard, so that means Nog will have to search for something other than a sweep.. Brock wouldn’t go into Mir’s full guard.. I dont see him going into Nog’s either.. I think the blueprint for Brock to beat Nog was the same as he used on Frank.. Look to punish Nog on the feet and then go to the ground once he hurts him.. Nog will look to pull guard the same way Mir did in the second fight but he wont keep Brock from standing back up if he land’s in Nog’s full guard..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Bob Sapp is 322 lbs
according to wiki. So he has size going for him, but that’s it. Brock, Carwin and the current crop of big HWs have size and athleticism. Therein lies the difference.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
My point was...
It took everything Nog had in the Sapp fight to survive.. But it was no secret that Nog fought that fight the same way Royce Gracie fought a lot of his early fights.. To survive and wear the big guys out of gas and then go for the submission..
Sapp is big and strong, but has ZERO gas.. Typical big man.. However Brock is big with a tank.. His steam may slow but it never lets off.. Not to mention trying to shoot for submissions when you have 280 lbs on top of you punching you in the face ..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
the sapp fight was over 7 years ago, nog’s boxing has come a long way since. you guys like to throw names out there and try to make a comparison to today’s nog, but you have to take in consideration how long ago the fight was, and how good nog was and how much better he has improved throughout the years. if sapp and nog were to fight again today, I’m sure the fight would be different. I mean, just two years before that he had lost to hendo… the only good point anyone can take out of the sapp fight is how much damage nog can take, sapp has just about the same raw power brock has, both can’t strike worth crap, one has great wrestling though, that’s the only thing that sets them apart…
Speed, Lesnar is probably twice as quick as Sapp and faster than Nog.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Exactly...
Speed, strength, size, agility & power all favor Brock over Nog…
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I think Nog is way more dangerous grappling than Mir especially with his sweeps… his grip is like a gorillas. Top position for Brock has to be the last option.
Nog’s biggest hole is that he gets hit… I think Brock just needs to stand and hit him – simple as that.
Carwin same thing. Nog cant take either to the floor unless they want to go there.
I'm not so sure
brock is not a great striker, and nog would be able to get away from most his strikes. Randy was giving lesnar hell before he got caught, nog’s boxing was better than couture’s last saturday.
Randy’s defensive Boxing is better than Nog’s, he always let his chin be his defense.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Brock is not a great striker..
But he doesn’t have to be.. He also doesn’t have to be a BJJ wizard either.. He has raw power, strength & size and is the best HW wrestler in MMA at the present moment.. As I’ve said before.. Those are great equalizers to striking & BJJ..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I absolutely loved that he hurt Randy and immediately went for the submission in the 1st round instead of trying to pound him out.
and the question is – if Nog had tried to gnp rather than go for the submission, would be have won? He had Randy rocked, but the sub attempt let him re-gather his brains about him. If Nog kept up the pew-pew, I think the fight might have been over.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
It probably would have been over, but it was perfectly in character. Made me smile.
Or leap out of my chair.
or both? :)
That’s cool. I just think he could have finished it but went for the sub cuz it was expected (and he wanted to be the ‘first’ do sub Couture).
But in a way I’m glad he did because it led to a hell of a match.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Will Nog ever capture another major title? Who knows, but Saturday night was a reminder to bet against him at your own risk.
I hope this fight isn’t the catalyst for some half-brained “NEVER BET AGAINST NOG” groupthink.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
BTW maybe Randy didn't adapt well in the fight?
I was sure that after the first round Randy would realize that standing with Nog is a bad idea , yet he pretty much kept at it . I understand that Randy was both scared from Nog’s submission skills and fought under the assumption that Nogueira’s stand up isn’t what it used to be (based on the Mir fight) , but clearly this was not the case and I was expecting Randy to try more take downs . I know – Nogueira was phenomenal with those 2 sweeps (second one in the last seconds fo the fight) but it was a risk worth taking considering Randy got knocked down and almost finished each round…
this
is what i was thinking during the fight
by cagefightonacid on Aug 31, 2009 4:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ricco
I believe.. That’s how he ended up on the bottom.. Barnett switched him too..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I was so glad to see Big Nog
back at a high level, but for me the question of his chin still remains. Randy has never been known as a power puncher & he caught Nog with some straight shots. If those were thrown by someone with real KO power we would have seen the same result as the Mir fight. Nog looked tough, but he looked extremely slow & had Randy had more power behind those shots this could have been over very quickly.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Don't you just love
when a fighter sweeps another in a MMA fight ? It’s probably one of my favorite moves… entertains me more than RNCs or armbars.
I honestly thought Randy was doing well till he got dropped, even if it was only 2 min. =) he was definitely slower after that… praise be to big nog
by cagefightonacid on Aug 31, 2009 4:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Don’t know officially but I can’t see it being any round other than the first.
weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.
Knockdowns don’t automatically win you the round in MMA. They are worth more in boxing because the fight is stopped to allow the downed fighter a chance to continue. In MMA the fight keeps going and if you cannot finish after a knockdown it is just another solid hit.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Actually they do in context..
If both fighters are avoiding the ground and one fighter gets dropped.. It favors in the judges eyes..
Examples:
Jardine vs. Liddell
Jardine vs. Rampage
Sanchez vs. Guida
In the Liddell fight.. Jardine landed a solid shot that dropped Liddell. This was the only “knock down” in the fight. This favored heavy on the judges scoring. The leg kicks werent putting a lot of points on the score cards because Chuck wasn’t even checking them so it wasn’t looked at as a real effective strike.. Chuck was walking through them at the time of the fight..
In the Page fight.. That knockdown solidified the “W” for Page.. Even 2 judges told Jardine that they gave the round to Page due to the knockdown at the end of the fight. Those 2 judges had Jardine ahead on the cards at that point.
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
It is something I have been brewing around, I don’t think knockdowns should be looked at the same way in boxing and MMA. In MMA, knocking someone down has it’s own advantage, they are in a worse position. I don’t think that it should automatically win a round for the fighter as well.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I was sitting in a bar watching alone so my perception of scoring may have been skewed. I thought the 1st round was close, even w/the knockdown. Just b/c Captain America landed some clean punches of his own. But a friend of mine was absolutely floored that I…..and 1 judge gave a round to Couture. That is why I asked the question. I thought rd 1 was a toss-up & since I’m as subjective as the next guy, I actually gave it to Couture. Of course the next 2 were easily Nog’s.
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