In Great Shape, Antonio "Minotauro" Nogueira Aims to Silence Critics
Randy "The Natural" Couture and Antonio Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira are set to clash at UFC 102 in a little over a week at the Rose Garden in Couture's old backyard, Portland, Oregon. Both men are legends. Nogueira reigned on top of the PRIDE heavyweight division for a lengthy amount of time before Fedor Emelianenko came along, and Couture won multiple titles within the UFC at both heavyweight and light heavyweight. While the fight would have had a lot more meaning when both men were in their prime, the imminent showdown has the possibility of being a true war that fans will remember for a long time.
While the age of both combatants has gained a lot of attention from fans, this fight raises other questions that will be answered on August 29th. Most notably, will Randy Couture continue to hang with the top level of competition in the UFC heavyweight division at the age of 46 years old? Couture is obviously going to be the next Jack Lalanne in his older age, but right now -- can he continue defeating top talent in his upper 40's?
The question on everyone's mind regarding Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is whether or not he actually has the skills to win at the top of the division. His past performance against Frank Mir at UFC 92 hinted at the potential degradation of that skill-set. Luckily for fans, it seems that Nogueira is back on track:
He’s made Los Angeles his home for the past three months, working MMA at Black House and sharpening his hands with boxing guru Freddie Roach. He brought in Greco Roman wrestlers to simulate Couture’s approach.
"We did a lot of cage work, a lot of everything I train for my fights, like boxing, a lot of Muay Thai, jiu-jitsu," said Nogueira. "He’s a normal size, so I didn’t have anyone special for him. I have about three or four guys the same size as him."
He says he’s in the best shape since his peak years in Pride. And against Couture, a conditioning machine, he’s counting on his hard work to keep him fresh in later rounds.
"I know the endurance part is a very important part of his game, so I worked very hard on mine to face (Couture)," he said. "I think both fighters are gonna be in good shape."
These are some solid changes to Nogueira's routine, and the boxing aspect of this bout could ultimately be the deciding factor for a Nogueira win. It isn't any secret that Couture's advantage comes in the clinch against the fence, and Nogueira's boxing could be the key in keeping Couture at bay. While I think Nogueira is the man who needs to bring his endurance up to Couture's level in this fight, it's nice to see the man back at 100%.
Unfortunately, some fans would still consider Nogueira the underdog due to his monumental beat down he sustained at UFC 92. While a lot of debate surrounding the event comes down to arguments that include "everyone fights at less than 100%" and "Mir's stand-up was just that good", I still don't see the reasoning behind the idea of throwing Nogueira under the bus after that showdown.
"Everyone fights at less than 100%" is still a ridiculous argument to this day, and I know there are plenty of fans who believe it. The fact of the matter is that the condition of the fighters is ALWAYS an aspect of the fight that matters. Any fighter in the upper-echelon of the division fighting at 50-75% has a huge disadvantage, and for anyone to actually state that it's just part of the sport -- it still has a major impact on the outcome of the fight. With Nogueira and Couture both looking great coming into the week before UFC 102, we can finally answer the questions we need answered... without any doubt.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Nog has just looked slow and plodding since coming to the UFC, and I have heard rumors that he is losing eyesight in one of his eyes as well. Randy looked a lot better against Brock that Nog has looked lately, and I expect him to play it smart and keep himself out of danger to win a decision.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 21, 2009 11:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My money is on Randy in this fight. Forget the Mir fight – Nog didn’t look all that impressive against Herring and Sylvia either. He’s slow and plodding. I expect Randy to have a significant advantage in speed and aggressiveness.
Randy by UD
by MMAEruption on Aug 21, 2009 11:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Sylvia fight is a bit different. He has to deal with huge size and a reach disadvantage. To be perfectly honest, the gameplan he used was perfect in the context of what he had to overcome.
Herring fight… he was slow and plodding, and he has been for most of his fights. But he has lost some weight apparently because of that, and there are a lot of good things coming out of his camp regarding this fight. I think it’ll at least be a better Nogueira than we’ve seen. Will it be enough to beat Couture?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never stop hoping for awesome fights.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 21, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get why ppl put him down on the heath fight
he owned heath in every aspect of the game, he just got caught by that one kick but managed to survive because he is a warrior. on the sylvia fight, like leland said above, that was a great display of technique, he wasn’t going to outstrike tim on the feet, he took his time and patience and played his game for 10 minutes, once it hit the floor, tim couldn’t play nog’s game for three minutes… BTW, nog always has problems with taller ppl that are good in striking. the only bad showing Nog really had whether ppl want to believe or not was against Mir, and I’ll buy Nog’s excuse that he had staph infection and was on the hospital a week before (nog is not the type that makes untrue excuses if you are familiar with his past). I won’t count him out on this fight, nog by decision or submission.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. He did manage to dominate him for almost every minute of that fight with the exception of the kick to the face.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
part of the problem is that people are vastly underestimating Sylvia given what has happened with him lately, but losing the stand up battle with him is not that bad a lot of fighters have. With that being said Nog just looks so slow I want him to win but I see Randy beating him ala Fedor. Beat him on the feat and then use top control to a UD. Randy is very good at submission defense.
by xbuckeyex05 on Aug 21, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
half his losses have come by submission
granted they were a long time ago, but that’s because most of his opponents as of late have either been strikers or wrestlers (with the exception of no heart gonzaga). Nog is a legit threat on the ground, and given Randy’s history, he is very much open for submission…
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is mostly before he ever even trained jiu jitsu. Since he started nobody’s really come close, and he went to a draw with Jacare. I think using the fight against Overeem or Inoue as some sort of clue as to what his sub defense will be like is just completely wrong.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jacare is much smaller than he is, and like I said, in MMA there hasn’t been any legit bjj fighter that went against him.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jacare is smaller, he’s also way better off his back and offers far more of a threat in that regard than Nog.
And yes, Gonzaga is a legit BJJ guy. He’s a world champion. Writing him off as no heart is nonsense.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you obviously don’t respect Nog’s credentials in BJJ. and yes, gonzaga has no heart and didn’t even want to go to the ground with couture.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His credentials are obviously unbelievable, but that’s not the point here. The point is how Nogueira uses his jiu-jitsu in MMA. He works from a fighter making mistakes, remains defensive, and looks for an opening. That’s not exactly a solid way to beat Couture on the ground. And that method works on the knowledge that Nogueira can withstand a severe beating, which isn’t working out well for him nowadays.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Nog will want to take the fight to the ground and I still believe he has major endurance (I don’t believe this rumor about him getting ko’d with boxing gloves). the guy still has only lost to TKO once (with Mir), and he is notorious for taking hard shots and falling to the canvas before he came over to the UFC (which was the case against heath and sylvia). I still don’t think Randy has faced a legit BJJ practioner in MMA as of late in the caliber of Nog, belfort prefers to box and gonzaga was afraid of going to the ground with couture. This will be a different fight than most ppl think.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with your stance completely, so we’ll agree to disagree. I’m sure you’ll just refute my claims.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, Inoue’s armbar on Couture was damn near unstoppable due to Inoue transition speed. Couture should have simply leaned into Inoue, but instead tried to pull out after Inoue had a clamp on his hand.
That submission was eerily similar to how Fedor has beaten some huge wrestlers.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s been a long time since Randy has been submitted.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 21, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s been a long time since he fought someone with bjj credentials too.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Big TIm was a force @ HW not too long ago, people forget that; I mean, say what you will, but aside from maybe Randy, Timmy is the most dominant UFC HW in promotional history. Fedor just took advantage of what Andrei and Randy had already discovered about Sylvia- that he’s a slow starter, and doesn’t have bulletproof defense standing. Fedor just happened to execute flawlessly.
And since Randy has been working with Neil, his ground game has improved a ton. I think the deciding factor in this fight will be who wins the standup, because whoever wins the standup also has more options on the mat. I’m thinking Randy by decision as well, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Nog subbed him, or even won a decision.
This fight should be a good indicator of where they both are in their respective careers
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Aug 21, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Nog loses, are you going to claim that he’s over the hill or will you give Randy and Mir the credit they deserve?
by cyph on Aug 21, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I will be putting my virtual money where my mouth is on MMAPlayground. I’ll be making a HUGE bet on Randy.
by MMAEruption on Aug 21, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Randy takes this fight no matter which Nog shows up.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
by Ubernoober on Aug 21, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would caution you against believing these training reports. I’ve heard some very ugly reports about Nog’s training camp in L.A. that include him getting knocked cold with boxing gloves a number of times.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yikes.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 21, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have sources on that? I believe you but I haven’t heard that before.
by Zack Gobie on Aug 21, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re anonymous sources at Black House, which I am not going to give up. I believe them.
I mean, it doesn’t mean he is going to get knocked out by Randy, he’s training with better strikers than Randy, just like Randy is training with better grapplers than Nog. I just don’t think we’re going to see a truly renewed Nogueira a la 2003 out there.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s good enough for me, thanks for the insight. That will really sadden me if Nogueira gets put to sleep again, even if I love Randy.
by Zack Gobie on Aug 21, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it unlikely…it’s not like Randy is known for KO power in his hands.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither was Mir. Granted, he did have the Sims fight, but Randy also dropped Sylvia.
by Zack Gobie on Aug 21, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true. I think fans wishing their aging stars would look like their old selves are always disappointed. Wand, Chuck, etc. It never happens. Randy is a different story because it’s not like he came back in 2007 and looked different, he looked about the same and added a few new skills. Guys can always learn new skills, reflexes don’t reverse their decline though.
Nog’s chin has shown a steady decline for years now. He used to be near impossible to knock down; he’s been knocked down in every UFC fight. It’s worth considering whether the Mir beating further weakened his chin.
When we all discussed Rich and Wand, nobody really asked if the Rampage punch made Wand even more chinny and tentative. His performance suggested the answer was yes. A big part of Nog’s game was a fearless reliance on his chin. If that is gone, he is in a lot of trouble.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s pretty obvious that there is a correlation. Look at Goulet. There is one specific fight where he was dropped, outside of the UFC I believe, and he’s been chinny ever since.
Same goes with the Wand vs. Rampage example, but it was likely beginning when Henderson destroyed him in his late PRIDE days. Chuck is the same way, and Nog’s damage-taking abilities over his career only furthered along the progression of his mind becoming mush. His style needs to change drastically, but it probably won’t help at this point in his career.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect if Nog fought Fedor now, he’d be Ko’d by that ground and pound in the first round. His guard style of taking clean punches to the face to go for submissions may not really work anymore.
Nog has to win the boxing to win this fight. I’m not confident he will.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before the Hendo KO, Wand had never really had his chin tested in Pride. He just dropped to big punches, and probably always had a glass chin beneath all that manic aggression.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I think this started with
Crocop. Wand got KOed clean by CC and that was the fight the started his downward trend. He really shouldn’t have been in that tournament.
by rainmaker6 on Aug 21, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anyone is actually insinuating that we’ll see a 2003 Nogueira. I don’t think we’ll ever see that again, but I think we’ll see, at least, an injury free Nogueira that won’t have him coming in at 50%. If his chin is suspect, that’s a different story altogether.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you speak Portuguese?
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 21, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn will that Machida ever keep his mouth shut?
by MMAEruption on Aug 21, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida is down in Brazil.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 21, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nog has taken way too much punishment over the years. The body has its limits.
by pwdminotauro on Aug 22, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blackhouse or LA Law?
What else your “sources” saying Rome?
They inform you of the fountain of youth? Status of the real estate market in LA?
by Rob Maysey on Aug 24, 2009 6:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seem a bit bitter.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 24, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reports from training camps are useless. Every fighter is always having the best camp they’ve ever had, the weight cut’s been easy, I brought in this Olympic wrestler, blah blah blah.
Newest cliche is training with Freddie Roach.
by MMAEruption on Aug 21, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd for truth
It’s all mindgames!
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy will probably be the favorite in this fight. Will be rooting for Nog though, and wouldn’t count him out just yet.
by Hardcase on Aug 21, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"...While the age of both combatants has gained a lot of attention from fans.."
Nog is 33 years old. 1 year older than Lesnar. Doesn’t seem like his age should really be getting any attention. I guess it is because he looks and moves like he is closer to Randy’s age, as does Wanderlei (also 33). Anderson Silva is in his prime IMO and older than both at 34…
by TRob on Aug 21, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
but it isn’t just age dude. It’s about the mileage; Nog’s been fighting for 10 years now, and he’s been in some incredible wars. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if he’s in the twilight of his career.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Aug 21, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Age is usually a proxy for wear and tear on the body in sports. Randy’s been fortunate enough to avoid a lot of that, and he’s kept his body in great shape. My only concern for him is that his attention is spread all over the place: EA, Gina’s camp, etc.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
and it’s the same with Wandy, but I think it is a point worth making. The issue with Nog is mileage, like you said, not age. The issue with Randy is age, but not mileage. So the question we should be asking is which has taken its toll, Randy’s age, or Nog’s mileage?
by TRob on Aug 21, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nogueira has had 38 fights, Wand 43 and Couture 25. That’s mileage.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bullshit.
His twin brother might be 33, but Nog has CLEARLY been through some kind of time warp or something. He must be at least 50.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Aug 21, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fighting Fedor 3x will add 12 years onto your face.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
by Ubernoober on Aug 21, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And against Couture, a conditioning machine, he’s counting on his hard work to keep him fresh in later rounds.
Considering it’s a 3 round fight, there really isn’t much in the way of “later rounds,” so I don’t think conditioning will be a huge factor.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 21, 2009 12:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought the same thing when I saw that.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
quintessential "i wish neither guy had to lose" fight
hopefully it’s a 3 round “war” with both guys going back and forth, showing that they’ve still got it.
by woooburn on Aug 21, 2009 12:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
QFT.. I like them both. I’d like to see Nog get back to his old self but I have a feeling he’s just taken too much damage over the years.. similar to Wanderlei. Pride burnt out the best in both of them.
by pr0cs on Aug 21, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the odds are heavily in favor of this being a fight where Nog runs out of time. It’s hard to envision him ending up in top position on the ground, so I think he will spend a lot of time off his back going to submissions. Even if his boxing goes well, Randy still has the ability to decide where this fight goes. Nog just has to take it wherever it goes.
by Michael Rome on Aug 21, 2009 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think this is a good assessment of what will happen. I don’t think he can submit Couture, and I can’t see him working off his back effectively.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has there ever been word out of training camp before a fight that was anything BUT awesome?
“Yeah, he looks normal. Nothing special. He’s actually been in better shape for other fights.”
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Aug 21, 2009 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“Everyone fights at less than 100%” is still a ridiculous argument to this day, and I know there are plenty of fans who believe it. The fact of the matter is that the condition of the fighters is ALWAYS an aspect of the fight that matters.
More ridiculous is to say that:
- we have any idea that Nogueira is actually “in great shape,” since we didn’t hear about his injuries before he fought Mir, and thus can’t be relied upon for that information OR
- we should discount his loss to Mir because he was injured
I’ve said this before, and I’ll keep saying it each time this gets brought up: Nogueira chose to fight. He decided that he was healthy enough to fight Mir. In addition, he was checked out by the doctors before the fight and submitted medicals proving that he was in shape to take a championship fight.
To claim otherwise is to suggest that either:
- he crafted and submitted fraudulent medicals to the commission in order to fight,
- his doctors drafted fraudulent evaluations to submit to the commission, or
- the commission got real medical info suggesting he was in no shape to fight but chose to ignore it (CSAC anyone?)
Any of which would be a serious allegation against him or the NSAC, and should be raised to the highest level.
Because if none of those are true, then he was okay to fight and he and his camp need to shut up about how he was a broken down old man and accept that he got beat.
Regardless: let’s say he really was fighting at 50-75% of his capability. Do you think he was unaware of that? Is this guy incapable of judging his own condition? The one thing we can learn from this in that case is that Nog takes fights injured. That has just as much impact on his ability to fight successfully as his BJJ, boxing or wrestling skills. If he’s too proud, stubborn or thick-headed to pull out of a fight when he’s at HALF his fighting strength, that’s a HUGE deal, and picking him to win becomes a sucker’s game.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Aug 21, 2009 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nobody is claiming that it should discount the win. I’m saying that it’s ridiculous to leave it out of the equation completely, which is what people generally say when they state that everyone fights injured.
As for the rest of this… I’m not sure what point you’re elaborating on. I would agree with your last points, and I generally agree with most of this.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When people say that “everyone fight injured” they mean that no fighter is truly 100% percent. If Nog says that he fought with a staph infection, he’s either the stupider fighter alive or he’s full of shit. Either way, it doesn’t make him look good.
by cyph on Aug 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he didn’t fight with a staph infection, he was recovering from one. there is a BIG difference when ppl like Nog (who never makes excuses) say he had a bad showing because of injuries, and ppl like tito or rampage, who is ALWAYS making excuses. We should know when to give credibility to fighters and when to call up on their BS, I just don’t think the BS applies to Nog’s claim (when even the president of the UFC itself confirms the injury). People forget that a fighter just can’t pull out of a main event whenever he wants, they are pressured in many cases by the UFC to show up to fight.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that they can pull out of the fight, pressure or no pressure. Nobody can make them fight.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
by jemaleddin on Aug 21, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt, but Joe Silva can be very persuading :P
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly, i did not hear too many fans, writers, or bloggers complaining too much about nog or wandy’s wars in PRIDE until DANA WHITE mentioned it after they both got dominated by rampage and mir. then all their fans just ran with it, and these are the type of fans who disagree with just about anything DANA says. i’m not saying that the fights that nog fought in the past didnt take its toll, but almost every fight randy had was against a top level fighter at the time. plus all the years he spent in greco-roman wrestling, where he was an olympic alternate (how do you think his ears got that way) and he boxed in the service, took it’s toll as well. so randy took his fair share of lumps. plus the fact that he’s like 15 years older! and yes, nog could have pulled out of that fight due to injury, and joe silva could have found a decent replacement and had nog fight brock at ufc 100 for the undisputed belt. oh well, hind sight is 20/20. :-)
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you serious? If you never heard of the wars Big Nog and Wandy have been in the past prior those fights you’ve just mentioned, you are either death/blind, or perhaps ignorant of the Pride era. Wandy’s mileage had already been in talks ever since he got KO’d by Hendo, way back in Pride, not when he faced Rampage for a third time. People were concerned because he had just gotten KO’d by Cro Cop as well. Concerns regarding Nog started almost instantly, given the fact that Wandy, a fighter that rarely (once a long time ago) gotten KO’d was now getting KO’d twice in a row, and it continued that way (for my sadness).
You said "every fight Randy has had was against top competition", and Nog’s wasn’t? Have you seen his resumé? Are you kidding?
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes,i am
of course ive seen and heard of his wars in pride, that wasn’t what i meant. nobody was discounting him b/c of these overseas (not just PRIDE ONLY) fights and calling him A SHOT fighter for the majority, until dana mentioned it after ufc 93. i NEVER said nogs resume isn’t impressive, your’e putting words in my mouth. that would be like me asking you “have you ever seen randy’s resume?” ufc hw and lhw champion TWICE. of course you have, but you do seem ignorant of the age difference and extremely biased.
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me being extremely biased is the biggest understatement of the year. Of course I am, I grew up watching Big Nog, can you blame me for trying to be the minority defending him here?
When you say Randy fought all these top leveled opponents after stating and accepting the fact that Nog has been in wars, you are some what omitting the fact that Nog has also fought top leveled competition. Whether ppl like it or not, the UFC was not the place to fight until the end of Pride (Nog’s house).
Lastly, for some odd reason you seem to think Dana was the guy who started coining Big Nog and Wandy as guys who have accumulated too many miles after the Mir and rampage fight. You couldn’t be more wrong here, this have been talked about long before those fights, Dana is not the one who started saying this. This is why I thought you were ignorant of Pride, because you don’t seem to know what was going on in Japan back then.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've watched Pride when the UFC was for noobs
You could make a case for Wanderlei “losing” it after CroCop KO’ed him. But you can’t say the same for Nog or CroCop. Nog looked bad not after a KO, but immediately after a 3 round win over Barnett. Barnett is the same guy who looked bad fighting Yvel which prompted him to take steroid for the following match with Fedor. CroCop looked bad right after his incredible win at the Pride OWGP.
What do all these fighters have in common? All these fighters looked superb in Japan in the prior fight before they seemingly lost their mojos in the US. How could CroCop go from hero to zero within a span of 5 months? What happened in between? Nogueira looked great beating up on Josh Barnett in Japan. Why did all of a sudden he lose a step within 7 months? It’s pretty obvious.
by cyph on Aug 21, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrestling doesn’t cause brain damage. Getting GNPd by Fedor twice or KTFOd by CroCop does. Besides Nogueira has had 38 fights, Wand 43 and Couture 25. Thats a big difference.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it doesn't?
are you a doctor? you don’t these guys dumping each other ot top of each others heads for years causes any can of trauma or that any guys got concussions? i mentioned in my post that BOTH fighters have taken their fair share of lumps. yes nog has had had more fights,(not all of them were wars) but there is alos a BIG DIFFERNCE in age as well that can not be discounted. i think everything is pretty much even between the 2 fighters and the best fighter will win come sat night. NO EXCUSES!
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you a doctor bdw?
to make that claim and to discredit ludakrish’s, you would have to follow your own rationality. There was an article by a real doctor on mmajunkie regarding this, in which he agrees that getting hit in the head continuously will decrease someone’s durability, and I haven’t read anything regarding wrestling where they don’t get hit in the head…
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that doctor, dr benjamin was speaking of boxing, not MMA.
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you don’t think the same rules apply here?
Do you get struck in the head in boxing? do you get struck in the head in MMA? that’s just real simple common sense now, come on…
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
@bdw
How many wrestlers have you heard of with Parkinson’s? And how many boxers? It is a fact that repeated head trauma, which would be way more in sport that allows striking (eg. boxing, MMA and NOT wrestling) causing brain damage due to repeated concussions. Do it long enough and you’re Muhammad Ali.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nog is not a boxer!
how many mma fighters or bjj practioners have you heard of with parkinsons. Ali is a very bad example, comparing the amount of hits ali took to the head to the amount nog took is asinine.
@ORCUS-LUDAKRISH- i’m not discounting any of big nogs accomplishments, i am very aware of his wars in pride, rings etc, and i was very impressed with his stint on tuf. he was by far the better coach than mir and carried himself with a great amount of pride and dignity, but we can’t go back in time and have these guys fight when WE believe that they were at their peaks. both fighters are legends. it does seem to me that some nogs fans have a built in excuses IF he loses to randy (same can be said for some of randy’s fans). I’M NOT BUYING IT! the best fighter will win and like i said above, i don’t want to hear about nog’s beatings in the past or old man couture’s age -NO EXCUSES!
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we can agree on that, the best man will win. But to say the staph infection (which have been confirmed by UFC) did not have any impact on his last fight is pretty crazy as well. But lets get over this, there is nothing wrong with either fighter and this will be a good fight with Nog taking the win! (sorry, I am biased remember :P).
One last thing though, boxers are much more vulnerable to long term injuries than MMA fighters, but this does not mean that an MMA fighter cannot be injured long term, it’s just that their endurance is subjected to a much smaller scale than boxing. Getting KO’d multiple times will make a fighter’s chin weak, regardless if it’s in boxing or mma.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough
whats in the past is in the past, may the best man win. :)
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JEEZ MAN!
Nog has 38 MMA fights and the last time I checked MMA allows striking to the head. Not to mention that Nog fought somebody whose name rhymes with Blaydor Jemelyaninko 3 times.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
well, ali fought guys like liston, frazier,norton,foreman, and shavers on several occasions who did nothing but striking and specialized in it it, especially to the head.
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One last thing though, boxers are much more vulnerable to long term injuries than MMA fighters, but this does not mean that an MMA fighter cannot be injured long term
Props to orcus ~ 4 posts above.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many mma fighters or bjj practioners have you heard of with parkinsons
How many MMA fighters do you know have had a full career? MMA has only been around for the past 20 odd years. And how old is Muhammad Ali? A combination of genetic disposition, toxins, and head trauma. Also the average age of appearance of syndromes is 60.
BJJ, like wrestling, is a much safer sport in terms of head trauma. I have myself actively practised/dabbled in boxing, karate, wrestling and BJJ (last 2 combined) and can tell you from first hand experience that a big takedown will knock the wind out of you and maybe you’ll bump your head on the mat, but it’s nothing like getting kicked in the head in a full-contact karate match.
by ludakrish on Aug 21, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ali is around 60 and has looked the same for about the last 20 years. hopefully this wont happen to nog. and yes we don’t know alot about long term affects of mma, but most doctors indicate that it is a much safer sport than boxing, as far as brain damage is concerened. i stand by what i say above that all things are as equal as they can be between the 2 fighters. i gotta go now. i’ll come back sat night after the fights though b.c i am picking randy by dec, so i’ll eat my crow then IF Ii have too. out!
by bdw on Aug 21, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, I hope you’re being sarcastic, it’s hard to tell with forums sometimes.
by orcus on Aug 21, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This debate is exactly why this is a great fight.
I just put down $3K on Couture – fake dollars of course!
I just hope my 3-way underdog parlay works out…
by MMAEruption on Aug 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The only people who need to be silenced are the Nog worshippers still making excuses for him getting destroyed by Mir, it happened all the excuses and crying won’t change the facts.
by Raker on Aug 22, 2009 12:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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