Will Brock Lesnar Become as Dominant as Georges St. Pierre or Anderson Silva?
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 2:04 PM EDT
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With the recent announcement, although still unconfirmed by the UFC, that Brock Lesnar will take on Shane Carwin at UFC 106 for the UFC Heavyweight title, it brings up some interesting questions regarding the division's stance as being full of potential contenders. Most notably, is the UFC bringing Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez too quickly to take on Brock Lesnar, or is it simply a strategy to set up more interesting fights at the top of the weight class?
Since Carwin would be taken off the UFC 104 card in the match-up with Cain Velasquez, it's been rumored that Velasquez will, in fact, take on the winner of the Carwin-Lesnar showdown after UFC 106. Many fans see this as an opportunity for Lesnar to crush both of the UFC's top heavyweight contenders in back-to-back battles, further solidifying Lesnar's stance as potentially the greatest heavyweight we've ever seen in MMA.
There are some great scenarios in almost any outcome to this formula. Lesnar defeating both Carwin and Velasquez in devastating fashion will only further build drawing power and interest from fans. It should also begin pushing some of the heavyweights below him into overdrive in terms of training and bulking up in order to truly give Lesnar a test. The big problem, however, is that we may have another dominating divisional champion that could be seen as certainly unbeatable, and it would be a tough prospect for the UFC to find new talent, even with the new season of The Ultimate Fighter.
If Carwin or Velasquez defeat Lesnar, it opens a plethora of possibilities. Carwin would take on Velasquez if he defeats Lesnar, or Lesnar defeats Carwin but succumbs to Velasquez. In any case, Lesnar would either take on another up-and-comer or get his immediate rematch. Frank Mir could potentially grab a rubber match out of that scenario along with the potential for Randy Couture to be granted his wish to take on Lesnar if he can defeat Nogueira.
If Lesnar does defeat both Velasquez and Carwin however, the prospects of someone new breaking into the upper-echelon of the division doesn't look too good. Here's the current schedule of heavyweight battles that we know about:
UFC 102
Randy Couture vs. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Tim Hague vs. Todd Duffee
Justin McCully vs. Mike Russow
Gabriel Gonzaga vs. Chris TuchschererUFC 103
Left Out: Frank Mir, Cheick Kongo, Heath Herring, Chase Gormley, Gilbert Yvel (rumored signing)
Mirko Cro Cop vs. Junior Dos Santos
UFC 104
Antoni Hardonk vs. Patrick Barry
Ben Rothwell vs.Chase GormleyCain Velasquez
UFC 106
Brock Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin
Rumored: Mir vs. Kongo
The most obvious choices would be Randy Couture/Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, and potentially Junior Dos Santos if he defeats Mirko Cro Cop. Mir will likely take on someone like Herring or Kongo, and Velasquez will probably wait out the outcome of the Lesnar/Carwin showdown unless the UFC actually lets him take on Mir.
The dilemna from my point of view is creating a bout that would actually test Lesnar. Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic about this, but Nogueira doesn't seem like the type of fighter that would last long at all in trying to grapple with Lesnar. Couture was able to do some things that we haven't seen before, and I'd be interested in seeing that fight happen again... but I'm still skeptical. Dos Santos has some solid stand-up, but Lesnar's size once again is a huge factor in that showdown.
Who else is left? A Mir rematch is possible for a rubber match, but he's stated that he'd probably want to add 20-30 lbs. of muscle before fighting him again. All of the other bouts in the division seem like back-and-forth battles in which none of those fighters would break away from the pack. I've always thought Gonzaga has the skill-set to present problems for Lesnar, but can he actually string together the wins to get to that position again?
Carwin and Velasquez would be sitting right below Lesnar at the top after their title shots, so there would be some interesting contender bouts and match-ups to draw new fighters into the contender mix. But the fact remains that there aren't a whole lot of options that present legitimate dangers to Lesnar, and he continues to improve with time. The UFC acquiring a guy like Gilbert Yvel is more of an entertainment value acquisition vs. an actual shot at contendership, so are there really any other possibilities?
It should be an interesting end of the year for the division, but we may very well come into 2010 with another UFC division that has a dominating champion that is perceived as "unbeatable" for a long time.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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there were rumors of Mir vs Kongo at 107 Before..
although i haven’t heard about anything since then.
I voted no
but not because I’m a Brock hater. His skills as a wrestler and GnP fighter are dominant. I just don’t believe he’ll ever be truly as well-rounded as GSP and Silva, thus always leaving the door slightly ajar for someone to dethrone him by capitalizing on his weaknesses. When I look at GSP and Silva, I scratch my head wondering what talents a fighter can bring into the cage that would swing the odds in their favor. With Lesnar we already know if someone is a dominant striker (Carwin?) or submission specialist (Mir), they stand a reasonable chance of winning.
Who said anything about well roundedness?
Dominance is not contingent upon style.
I STILL poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on Aug 20, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If well rounded was the key, then chuck and hughes wouldn’t be that dominant before. haha.
…and rzor, i don’t think we can call carwin a dominant striker just yet..
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 20, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
What I was trying to say
is that not being a well-rounded fighter will leave his potential for a dominant reign as champion vulnerable.
but
Weox3 already addressed that when he listed 2 past dominant champions who were anything BUT what one would consider “well-rounded”. Hughes and Chuck.
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To be fair...
thats the past. Modern MMA, a fighter needs to be at least passable in all aspects, unless they have some feature (for example, crazy big and strong) that allows them to be less than average at one or more aspects.
screw you!
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Sure, but...
…they were dominant in a time before fighters saw what it was to be TRULY dominant and what would be required of them.
During the Liddell and Hughes reign of terror, who in their divisions were as “well-rounded” as all the champs (aside from Brock) are today? Hughes and Liddell both fought the best in their divisions at the time but Hughes eventually lost to a superior athlete (in GSP) that would make trouncing him look EASY in their second and third bouts, whereas Liddell met someone who was able to beat him at his own stand-and-bang game (Rampage).
Brock is still largely untested having relied on his massive bulk and ham hock hands to plow through his opponents. If he can beat Carwin on the feet I’ll be impressed – if he SUBMITS Carwin, well, then we can start talking about Brock in the same sentence as the other champs…
Apples and Oranges
You can’t compare because the heavyweight division has a weight variance of sixty friggin pounds. There should be a super-heavyweight division starting at 245, its ridiculous to have Lesnar, who’s dieted down to 265 fighting someone who’s healthy fight weight is 230.
Exactly
People have been saying this for a while, but I think it was ruled down lately. i don’t remember off hand but I think some commision was going to institute new weight classes (inc. super heavyweight) but it didn’t pass through.
Maybe someone who remembers more of it can do better than me at it,.
why is it unfair today?
Everything is perfectly fine when Fedor is beating giants or Randy is beating the shit out of Gonzaga and Sylvia, but the second the big guy wins we need a change?
by Phildo on Aug 20, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
source on that?
And source on him saying it when he was beating the bigger guys.
That’s my point. The only thing that has changed is that now the big guy is more athletic and has some ground skills.
If it was ok before brock, it should be ok during brock.
Exactly. Brock is seemingly being held to a different standard than every fighter on earth. Just because he appears to be a dominant force, doesn’t mean that rules need to be changed to level the playing field. He is the best fighter in the division and falls within the division standards. The onus is now on other fighters to learn to fight him.
It’s because Brock is the first of the new breed. It isn’t because people don’t like his hometown or the way he cooks or something. It’s because people see that the division is changing (through him) and it would be pretty silly to make “freak show” matches and pretend they are legit.
I’m not sure there is a “new breed” necessarily. Lesnar seems to be more of an anomaly. You don’t implement widespread change for an anomalies.
But he’s not an anomaly. In addition to Carwin, we are starting to see more and more people choose MMA over football or Pro Wrestling. He’s helped to shed light that big guys can compete, and they are starting to.
I don’t think we’re seeing guys bypass the NFL yet. It’ll happen eventually, but most of the NFL guys going to MMA couldn’t cut it in the NFL.
Not the NFL
but NFL Europe (like Brock did), CFL, amd whatever else. The many, many players who don’t make the NFL will see MMA as an career choice.
“I think Brock is a great indication of where the heavyweight division is going,” Couture said. "You’re getting these guys that aren’t just big guys, but they’re very, very good athletes.
http://mmajunkie.com/news/13265/despite-defeat-randy-couture-unprepared-to-put-a-wrap-on-career.mma
As you can see, my point runs alongside Randy’s and contrary to yours. It isn’t a simple matter of strength vs skill anymore. With more guys who are big, strong and athletic, it will leave a lot of fighters no place to go.
The sport is changing rapidly. Acknowledging that fact doesn’t mean that everyone is out to get Lesnar.
I see your point, but don’t necessarily agree.
Up to this point, we only have Brock as an example of the new breed of heavyweight. If one day there are 20 fighters in the UFC cutting from 290 and are as athletic as LHWs, then I could see a shuffle being necessary, and I’d be right there with you calling for change. Right now I just feel it is premature, seeing as the debate centers on one fighter.
I'll agree with that
I don’t think right now there are enough to form a super heavyweight division, but with the new TUF and, as I mention above, more big guys actually starting to consider MMA as a career option, I don’t think it will be long at all before we see a need for it.
Randy is simply pointing out that
there are now huge guys that are super-athletic as well. He is not lobbying for them to create another weight class for them. If there were 10 guys similar to Lesnar then I could see that happening, but for now we only have Lesnar & Carwin in the UFC that fit that mold & for now you cant place Carwin in the super athletic level that Lesnar is.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Yeah, but they should create a new weight class.
Why? Because now there is a precedence that heavyweights will basically need to be enormous to compete at the top level within the UFC. Guys who are around 230 will have a hard time cutting to 205, and there isn’t a middle ground. 206-230 wouldn’t be a bad idea, and 231 – 265 wouldn’t be bad.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Guys who are around 220 cut to 205 all the time. And those 230 guys have never had any reason to try.
You’re basically looking at guys the size of Frank Mir as the bottom end of the HW division. I don’t see that as a problem.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Aug 21, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He is not lobbying for them to create another weight class for them.
Not directly, but the implication is there. With heavyweights becoming top end scalers with athletic abilities, as Randy points out that’s where it’s heading, it will leave a bunch of fighters no place to go. Fighters who can’t cut to LHW, yet aren’t big enough for the 280+ pounders, will be screwed.
I do agree that at the moment it can’t really be done, but I can definitely see (and hope!) it becoming a reality in the near future as more athletes view MMA as a legitimate option.
Perhaps the subtext is there and I just don’t see it. It may be because I believe Randy would be more outspoken than that. Even if he didn’t come right out and say “Brock should fight as a super heavyweight/guys my size should have a cruiserweight division to compete in” I think Randy would word his thoughts in a way that would leave little doubt as to how he feels.
It looks to me that he was merely making a comment on a guy being big and athletic, not advocating creating new divisions.
by black dragon on Aug 21, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Let's be fair...
Randy wants a rematch (ie: $$$$$). I think his words are pretty clear, even tho he is smart enough to not come out and say it directly. He would be shooting down a huge future payday to do so.
I’m not sure how else it can be taken: The future of the division is big, athletic guys. Meaning, smaller HWs will have no place in it. Meaning, they will need somewhere to fight. It does sort of flow. :)
As Blackout said, dominance isn’t necessarily well-roundedness. For all we know, Lesnar could walk through a bunch of heavyweight contenders by simply using his power, size, and wrestling without really delving into the stand-up game that much.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s my thing… If a fighter is good at what he does, why should he feel pressure to add more tools to his skill set? Why should Lesnar learn Muay Thai or Judo when those things are not necessary elements to his truly dominant style and game planning? It doesn’t make sense to me that he should be criticized for that. If anything, his standing boxing needs to be sharpened; but he’s so powerful, it’s almost a nonissue.
I STILL poop rainbows.
Haha, imagine Lesnar as a Judo black belt. His judo throws would kill someone.
But anyways… I fully agree. A lot of people are still on the premise that skill beats strength any day of the week, but Lensar’s strength is so much more than most heavyweights… it might actually break that theory. Until someone really gains the power to match him and has the technique to boot, it’s a tough call.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
carwin might be able to match brock’s power, so even if i think brock takes that fight, it makes it real interesting…
also, if carwin gets manhandled easily, i wouldn’t know who (in the UFC’s current roster) would give brock a run for his money..
I don’t think nog can do it either.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 20, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Carwin is a legitimate challenge, but after that… I have no idea unless they acquire Fedor.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think most people think skill>size all the time. Obviously, since no one is calling for the abolition of weight classes.
And I think the critique of Lesnar that has to be made is that the reason he looks so dominant is that he’s basically a super heavyweight who can cut just enough to get in the ring with guys who are 30 pounds lighter than him. He’s manipulating his weight so he can just bully lighter fighters. The HW division is the size of 3 normal divisions, so he has plenty of victims.
Basically if they made a cruiserweight for 240-265, well, he wouldn’t have Mir or Herring or Couture to sit on anymore.
To put it another way, when I watch Anderson Silva fight, I feel like I’m watching one of the great martial artists of my lifetime. When I see Lesnar fight, I see a ex-steroid user use raw muscle to tenderize substantially smaller dudes. I see a bully. Yes, he uses some solid technique to accomplish that, but he’s still mostly just a genetic/chemical mutant. It’s like putting a cave troll in the cage. Or putting say, Wanderlei Silva in the cage vs. Urijah Faber. Sure, he wins, but is it really sporting?
I want to get on top of my wife and drink a Coors!
LOL..
You do know Herring & Mir are both over 250 lbs right ?? Sitting at about 255 on average for each..
Also Mir cut to the lowest he’s ever been in his entire career for his last fight with Brock but still weighed in at 244..
Anything above 230 lbs is really irrelevant because not many 230 lbs men can move at the speed and have the gas of someone that cometes at 170 lbs.. Lesnar is not taking advantage of anything in regards to weight. He’s taking advantage of being the very few unique guys of his size and weight that possess true athletic ability and are NOT competing in the NFL…
Right, but you’ve got to look at the distribution of human sizes. The fact is, there’s not that many people who are that big, and there’s even less of them who choose to compete in MMA, and there’s fewer still who have the skill set that Brock does. So even if his primary advantage is his size, that’s still a VERY valid advantage that should factor into his dominance.
Yeah and Lesnar weighs what? 280 when he gets in the ring? And it ain’t fat.
He’s the Semy Schilt of MMA. He’s way larger than everyone else and moderately competent, so he can generally win against his much smaller opponents.
And that’s fine as far as it goes. Yes, its all fair that he uses his size and agility to do what he does.
But if we continued to use the 15 pounds per weight class, NOBODY he has fought would be in his weight class. To my mind, that takes a lot of credit away from him as a fighter. If he beats a few guys his own size, I will have my doubts.
But your theory is flawed because...
As has been pointed out numerous times before, there ARE NOT any fighters of his size and weight out there capable of competing at the level he does..
Who would you have Lesnar beat on ?? Tim Sylvia is VASTLY bigger than Brock.. Brock is not the “biggest” HW.. He is a BIG HW but has 4 times the athletic ability of his counterparts.. It was all fair because the big gyus were slow and gassed & couldn’t do the things Brock is doing now.. But now MMA is growing and is attracting the better athletes and now it reverts back to Size>Skill because Athleticism is the big factor now… Athleticism is the fundamental ingredient for size>skill… It’s the big equalizer…
Carwin is basically exactly
the same size Lesnar is! I have no idea about their strengths comparitively, but their size is pretty much identical.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Exactly..
Brock is “not” the biggest HW by far… He isn’t some HUGE giant that just rolls through his competition..
Herring is “NOT” a small HW.. He stands 6’4" & 255 lbs.. Thats a HUGE man.. Tim Sylvia stands 6’8" & wiehged as much as Brock, but no one was complaining when he was beating everyone, because they all knew he would eventually lose to someone with equal size or the ability to beat him on athleticism alone..
Brock is just abnormally athletic for his size.. He’s that guy that excels due to god given athletic gifts.. Size doesn’t mean much nor does strength when your comparing a guy with “natural” athletic" gifts as apposed to someone who just gets by on size..
That’s because Sylvia’s strength was striking… where there is WAY more of a chance of being caught than in the wrestling department at that weight class. That’s why noone thought he’d ever be that dominant.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Sylvia strength wasnt striking ...
It was his size and reach.. Anyone who weighs 250 lbs or more is gonna have naturally heavy hands on sheer weight alone.. He also has a vastly long reach and being so tall helped him fend off the on coming shots from shorter fighters..
Sylvia has always had major holes in his game.. It just took the time for the sport to attract the “real” athletic HW’s for these guys to be dethroned ..
I’ll say it all day long.. Athleticism outweighs all when you’re on an even playing field..
Sylvia’s strength wasn’t his striking, it was his size and reach.
What do you think he was doing with that size and reach? :\
I still don’t agree. You’re saying that since Tim Sylvia is bigger than Brock Lesnar… that Brock’s pure athleticism is the reason why he’s the better fighter?
Sylvia isn’t heavy-handed at all anymore as proven in his more recent performances, and that’s likely attributed to his hesitance to let his hands go and his style.
Furthermore, the fact that Sylvia’s main gameplan is to stand does affect the question at hand. Sure, athleticism plays a role, but Brock has a vast wrestling background whereas Sylvia does not. All of that plays a factor.
I agree, that on a level playing field in which two guys have level backgrounds and skills, it does matter… but there aren’t many fights when two huge HWs are on similar playing fields.
Even in Carwin vs. Lesnar’s case… Carwin isn’t the wrestler that Lesnar is at all. It isn’t that even. Size-wise yes, but experience in specific skills matters a lot.
If it was Carwin vs. Lesnar, and neither guy knew what the hell they were doing… I would say athleticism mattered OR both guys were NCAA D-1 champions with similar striking, I would say athleticism mattered.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
What’s the difference between DI and DII?
(I’m from Europe, so i’m not familiar with it…)
by dancingChicken on Aug 20, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, for one….
D-I schools will recruit the best wrestling talent in the country out of high school while D-II can’t compete with that type of recruiting.
In turn, those schools all have the best wrestlers, and they all train together… getting better and better and better. D-II schools won’t have that luxury.
Progressively, over four years of college… D-I guys are going to be ridiculously challenged in competition against the best wrestlers in the country.
You get the idea.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Basically like 2 divisions in soccer.
Division 1 is the premeir league, division 2 is the league right below that.
Well, then it’s quite a big difference…
by dancingChicken on Aug 21, 2009 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s not exactly the same type of thing.
Schools don’t get moved up and down based on merit, it’s based on school size and athletic budgets, so the better athletes usually end up in division 1 because they have more money to spend on scholarships.
I was just trying to find an example that a european could understand. In terms of skill it might be closer to the difference between 2 lower level leagues in a country’s soccer system, but the theory is similar.
Thanks. I knew about school size and budget, but was wondering how different the level of competition is between those divisions…, like would DII Champion be competetive against DI champion…
by dancingChicken on Aug 21, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s hard to tell in wrestling, since it’s an individual sport, but in the team sports they probably wouldn’t stand a chance.
In team sports most teams can’t compete, but with something like Wrestling could be different because it’s an individual sport, and some individuals from lower divisions have gone on to have successful careers in the major sports.
In general though, if you just had Division 1 champ vs Division 2 champ, without knowing any other info, the division 1 champ would probably be a big favorite.
In individual sports the ELITE guys in division 2/3/NAIA etc. usually have D1 talent and just slipped through the cracks for one reason or another. Guys like Shane Carwin, Matt Hamill, Jon Jones and Bobby Lashley were all D1 caliber athletes even though they didn’t compete in D1.
You find the same phenomena in team sports as well, but it is not as pronounced since they have to carry their teammates. Every year, the NFL/NBA/MLB find a few gems in the small college ranks, but that is it. There are some good athletes at that level, but no depth.
Dude, look at them in the ring and tell me Lesnar isn’t way bigger than everyone he fought. He’s wider, thicker, and taller. The mofo has a really big size advantage. And remember, the weight classes seem to indicate that 10-15 pounds is enough to constitute an unfair competitive advantage. Lesnar has two to three weight classes between the guys he has fought so far. I mean Couture can cut to LHW for Christs sake.
He is much bigger
People think that because he cuts to 265 that he is 265, but he bulks back up to 280+ after weigh ins. This is true for all weight classes, tho, where people cut to try to get a size advantage. The difference is just much larger with the big boys.
Bob Sapp is bigger than Lesnar..
& weighs in at 330 lbs.. How did his fight with Nog go ??
Size only outweighs skill when athleticism is the great equalizer.. In the case of Brock, that’s just the case.. Tough shit for everyone, deal with it..
You gonna tell Jordan to stop dominating the NBA because he was a better athlete than every other player of his time ?? He redefined the game because he was so dominate and wasn’t a big man.. With Brock you have a guy that has the gift of size & strength with the addition of athleticism..
Lesnar has perfected advanced Lay n pray. He gets away with it because of his tremendous size, strength, and athleticism.
I prefer my fights to be guys who deploy crazy skill & athleticism to defeat people their own size. If you like watching Lesnar do super lay n pray, fine. I personally will not be too interested in buying his cards unless there’s something else I want on it.
It ain’t lay and pray if the opponent gets turned into tomato paste by the end of R1.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
Thats where his immense strength comes in. Unless you think those shots he was giving Mir would normally turn a guys face into hamburger that quickly.
Wait a sec
So Brock is actually a lay n’ pray guy because his punches, if thrown by a normal heavyweight, wouldn’t smash someone?
Really?
Hahaha
Some of the arguments about Lesnar are so bogus, they’re hardly worth humoring.
I STILL poop rainbows.
When did vicious GnP become LnP?
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by Richard Wade on Aug 20, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s disappointing.
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by Richard Wade on Aug 20, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Carwin in his last fight was 259lbs, so there’s still 25lbs difference between them
by dancingChicken on Aug 20, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
… and Brock has weighed in as low 262.
Or are you implying that Carwin doesn’t cut weight?
In which case, you are wrong.
It all depends on if Carwin actually cuts.
If he doesn’t, then Brock is about 25 lbs. bigger at fight time.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Weight cutting is no different for anyone..
If you make the limit then you’re within the guidelines of the rules in place at that time..
I say tough shit.. deal with it.. It takes a lot of sacrifice & discipline to cut weight & still be effective.. Carwin admits that he too walks around at 280-285 between fights.. He does cut weight too…
What the hell are you talking about?
It’s like you made an argument out of thin air. I was just stating a fact that Lesnar would be 25 lbs. heavier if Carwin didn’t cut.
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by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
That wasn’t directed at you.. replied in the wrong spot because the post’s were coming in too fast at that time..
I was agreeing with you
Carwin always weighs in under 260lbs, so i was guessing that he doesn’t cut. (isn’t it stupid to dehydrate 6 extra pounds?)He looked the same size as Gonzaga.
Carwin himself states that off season he walks around at 280…
by dancingChicken on Aug 20, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Carwin might “cut” weight, but not the same way Brock Lesnar does. Both men have admitted to walking around in between fights near the 300lb mark, but that’s where the similarities end. Carwin cleans up his diet and loses fat so he doesn’t have to dehydrate. Brock dehydrates and rehydrates. So on fight night Brock is the larger of the two men.
Who cares?
Bodyfat doesn’t contribute to strength. The single most important thing in generating power is actually tendon strength, and you don’t lose that when you cut. Carwin has the tendon strength of a 300 pound man because he has spent most of his adult life as a 300 pounder. Ditto for Brock.
Here's the only real difference between them..
Carwin has strength…
Lesnar has power..
Lesnar is far more explosive and accelerates in short powerful burst’s.. He’s fast and powerful..
they both do
Carwin has been a wrestler/ football player his entire life. He has done the exact same working out as Brock. There is no way to tell that one is more explosive than the other.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I have watched them both fight and Carwin certainly moves around a lot slower than Lesnar does. Just because they both trained and competed in the same sports doesn’t make them comparable as athletes. Brock’s DIV I title vs. Shane’s DIV II title speaks to that.
i’d give you that maybe his 40 yard time may be faster, but that has nothing to do with the explosiveness of your core or punching power, which i thought was being debated. I would agree that he seems to have better footwork and moves faster
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
If you want any proof of how well BROCKLESNAR moves on the ground, just watch the Mir 1 and Herring. Very slick and fast moves.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
true, he definately rotates position very fast. But then again, i really haven’t gotten to see much of Carwin considering he has less than 13 mins of total cage time
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shane Carwin KOs everyone too fast to make a serious comparison.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
by Ubernoober on Aug 20, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
DING DING
Finally a voice of reason :)
All this speculation on who is better at what, when all we’ve seen at most is 2:11 of Carwin fighting. All we know is that he has the ability to finish people very quickly and effectively. Other than that, its trying to compare apples and we dont know what else yet.
WHATEVER HAPPENS
Am i the only one giddy about this? today is like christmas.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You have the composure of a 12 year old girl.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
you give me too much credit sir.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But we do..
Go watch his wrestling matches..
Shane is definitely a great threat.. But there is no comparison between Lesnar & Carwin outside of comparable size..
The arguement could be made in that Lesnar fought vastly superior fighters than Carwin and hasn’t had the opportunity to land a big one shot on the button because his opponents didnt stand in front of him like Carwins opponents have..
What are you talking about?
First, you say that athleticism is what makes Brock great because Carwin and Lesnar’s size is roughly the same…
But then you dismiss the fact that Carwin’s wrestling is inferior to Lesnar. It’s not a myth, it’s fact.
Yes… Lesnar is quicker on the ground, but he also has faced VASTLY better competition in college in the wrestling department versus what Carwin faced.
And then you say this….
Shane is definitely a great threat.. But there is no comparison between Lesnar & Carwin outside of comparable size..
Then how the hell can you say that Lesnar wins because he has more athleticism. He could basically win because he’s a better wrestler with more experience against better competition. That doesn’t necessarily mean more athleticism. For all we know, Carwin could make a monumental wrestling mistake during the fight, and Lesnar capitalizes. That’d be a technical win, not athleticism.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
could also argue
that couture is more athletic than lesnar, just not as strong. Its really a roundabout argument, because there’s no definitive way to tell.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
You quoted my statement but..
That’s what I was referring to.
Lesnar is the far more better fighter in almost all aspects (outside of arguing size and punching power)
His athleticism is what makes him so dominate.. Not his size.. Athleticism is a broad definition of lumping in his “speed, agility, & strength” into one word..
There are plenty of guys his size and as strong or powerful in a sense.. But what set’s him apart is his total athleticism with those comparative traits with others his size ..
I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I understand your point.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say that explosiveness has more to do with hand speed and not punching power. I would give hand speed to Brock. Punching power? I honestly couldn’t tell you. All I know is that Shane has knocked people out with his comparatively slower punching where Brock has not.
Explosiveness
has to do with the amount of energy garnered in a short distance combined with the speed of acceleration..
Brock just has a lot of fast twitch fiber muscles and generates an enormous amount of power with his mass in a short burst..
That stands for more than hand speed, it combines total weight & how he manages to move it in the amount of space he is given..
There is in comparing their functionality
It’s evident how quick Lesnar goes from A to B..
Carwin while being similar in all things considered doesnt exactly accelerate and adjust functionality the way Lesnar does..
Ugh…
In the wrestling department (i.e. ground game), I’d agree with this assessment, but Carwin shows big power in his hands. A short right basically crushed Gonzaga.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Despite his size and strength advantage, Brock’s chin may be questionable. Mir hurt him in the beginning of the 2nd round at UFC 100 (straight left, jumping knee), and prior to that, Randy had him reeling in their fight. A heavyweight Anderson Silva-like fighter (or, dare we say, Anderson himself?) could beat Brock.
I think that knee would’ve put a lot of guys to sleep..
and about Silva beating brock? Hendo was able to hold him down for a round.. Imagine what a 280 lb wrestler like brock can do to him.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 20, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
I think Lesnar versus Silva is a ridiculous fight for the mere fact that Silva would never come in at an ideal weight to take on Lesnar. Even if he could land a few surgical strikes, it’d be unbelievable if he could actually stop Lesnar from taking him down and doing whatever he wanted to him.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Machida has also talked about one day wanting to fight Lesnar, IIRC. I guess the question is would he be able to shrug Lesnar off like he did Tito whenever Tito tried to take him down? I suspect not, but I think he’d have a better shot at Lesnar than Anderson.
There is some differences there though. Silva doesn’t have that overly active evasive maneuvering that Machida employs, but he does avoid the takedown rather well due to guys being completely scared shitless to wade in his reach.
If Machida was quick enough, that’d be an interesting fight to see, although one mistake and he’s on the ground.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Anderson Silva...
has said he might move up to heavyweight. Given that he won’t go for the title if Machida continues to hold, there seems to be no point from the UFCs perspective to let him clear out all the contenders at LHW. His striking and control of distance in preventing a takedown might prove to be a big problem for Lesnar. What a fight it would be! Though I would like to see St Pierre vs. Silva at 185 or maybe even a catchweight.
Spider
I think the main point of letting him clear out all of the LHW contenders would be because it would be entertaining as hell to see him clear out all of the LHW contenders. The weight class is much more competitive than Middleweight.
by Zou want a piece? on Aug 20, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Currently the UFCs LHW is stacked. The UFC is all about business and it makes terrible business sense to let someone clean out a division if he has absolutely no intention of taking on the champ. Then the champion has no genuine challenger and everybody’s screwed – the fans, the UFC, the contenders and the champ. Everybody but Silva :P
I think everybody's getting ahead of themselves....
with respect to Lesnar. He may or may not be as dominant as this article suggests, but predicting a fickle sport like MMA three or four fights into the future is not at all a good idea.
Besides, Big Nog beat Sapp who is a hell of a lot bigger than Lesnar (~330 lbs), pure muscle all roided up. I’d guess he’s Admittedly his cardio is terrible and Lesnar is a much better wrestler, but after the match with Carwin that’s the fight I’d most like to see.
Also, very unlikely, but if we get to see the CroCop of old, with awesome takedown defence, come back, I’d love to see CroCop vs. Lesnar.
sapp and lesnar are COMPLETELY different fighters..
and i think Dos Santos ends crocop’s night early.. Watch his last fight, it really isn’t as impressive as most people think it is.. If he fights like that against Dos Santos, he gets put down in the first.. I guarantee it..
plus, even if cro cop improves on it, he won’t get the takedown D necessary for him to stop a lesnar takedown.. Gonzaga man handled the guy before landing that headkick.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 20, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed that Sapp and Lesnar is a far fetched comparison at best, but my point is that Big Nog can and has overcome a size and strength difference. The key difference will be the skill.
As for CroCop, I said hope. Take a look at his fight against Coleman and tell me that isn’t some serious takedown defence. If we do see the fighter of that time and not the one who got taken down at will by both Overeem and Gonzaga, it would be an awesome fight.
CC had great takedown defense back in PRIDE, but he has yet to truly show it in the UFC. I think we would need to see it before actually believing he could give Lesnar trouble.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Stopping a Lesnar takedown might be a bit harder than a coleman takedown.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Well, Coleman, back in the day, was ridiculously huge. I mean, the guy has muscles growing out of muscles on his shoulders. But yes… I think Lesnar still dwarfs him from back in the day in terms size and strength.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Mainly because..
PRIDE lacked an abundance of BIG wrestlers.. Outside of Coleman they didnt really have a “wrestler mentality” fighter.. Barnett is still more of a stand up fighter than a “pure wrestler/grappler”..
The UFC has always been notorious for attracting the “wrestlers” because it has shown to be the favored discipline for many great fighters’ base..
The predicting portions of this piece are merely a way to set up some discussion. Obviously, you’re coming from a point in which you think it’s pointless, but it definitely is something to look at.
As for Nog versus Sapp, that battle back in PRIDE was pretty epic. Sapp doesn’t have even close to the wrestling that Lesnar has, but Sapp back in those days was much more mobile and a better fighter than what he is today. Still, Nog versus Lesnar just doesn’t intrigue me at all. Nogueira is notoriously a defensive jiu-jitsu guy, and I think Lesnar’s power in top control would crush him quickly, but that’s my opinion.
Am I the only one who thought Cro Cop still looked a bit… not like his old self even against Mustaph Al Turk? He just seemed slower.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
yep..
a lot slower..Al turk even tagged him a couple of times… and i don’t know if it’s because of the surgery, but he threw wayyyy lesser kicks than he usually does..
I think dos santos murders him if he comes out the same way.
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 20, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
IMHO...
and I may be way off about this, but I thought CroCop was waiting for an opportunity to launch his LHK to please the crowd that I’m sure had a significant number of Croatians. It was quite obvious, he was least worried about Al-Turk’s striking.
If all he’s going to do is wait to LHK people all day long…. I’d consider him a non-contender.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
That is true...
but I think (again, hope) that CroCop wasn’t taking Al-Turk very seriously.
When they give Lesnar a real heavyweight, he’ll lose. And it won’t be to Carwin/Velasquez/Kongo/Couture. The only ones I can see [possibly] beating him are Nogueira (in typical Nogueira fashion), dos Santos, Cro Cop, Fedor, Arlovski and Overeem (obviously most of those fights won’t happen).
I mean, Lesnar even admitted that he was dazed by Mir’s minor striking onslaught in their second fight. He’s still powerful enough to beat the lower quality heavyweights (which are who he will spend the majority of his UFC time fighting). His stand-up game is worse than Bob Sapp; his non-wrestling grappling skills are worse than Pat Barry. All Lesnar has going for him is nepotism, takedowns, and a dick on his chest that is similar to a giant bug zapper, except he attracts fan boys instead of bugs. And when Lesnar goes down, all his fanatics will go with him.
Just like Kimbo.
Completely disagree, but im eatin so it will be a minute before i tell you why :)
by SouthAlaBamaRampage on Aug 20, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how Nogueira beats Lesnar. What’s he going to do? Consensus argument would be that he defensively submits him from the bottom, but Lesnar’s power is going to likely be immense in comparison to Nogueira IMO. I think Nogueira gets can-crushed, to be perfectly honest.
Cro Cop still looked slow, and you could conceivably look at his fight with Gonzaga and get an idea of what could happen on the ground. Lesnar could take him down at will IMO. CC has a lot of improving to do. That Al Turk fight, as great as everyone likes to think it was, wasn’t that great. He still looked a bit bulky and slow.
Fedor is a legit fight, but will it happen? Arlovski… I don’t see it. Overeem may possibly be a guy who could do it with his immense muscle mass, but… the jury remains out on him until he fights again.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with Leland
I don’t see any way that Nog can beat Lesnar. It isn’t that Lesnar is a better fighter, it’s that he is just too big for his ability.
Randy said it best:
“I think Brock is a great indication of where the heavyweight division is going. You’re getting these guys that aren’t just big guys, but they’re very, very good athletes.”
It’s no longer the small skilled guy vs the big strong guy (Nog vs Sapp for example). Now the big strong guys are getting skills too, which leaves the smaller heavyweights no real place to go. I think gone are the days where a fighter can make LHW and HW and be successful at both.
by mythbuster on Aug 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You chose the most arbitrary aspect of my argument to counter. I said it was possible for Nogueira or Cro Cop to beat him, not that they necessarily would.
I just think there are a lot of unaswered questions at HW that need to be addressed in the coming years. I just feel that things won’t always be quite so positive for Brock in the future.
I don’t think it’s even possible. I mean, there is a chance obviously… just like there’s a chance I’ll marry Arianny Celeste by the end of the year.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t expect anybody to agree with me. I think Lesnar is good, don’t get me wrong. He’s just over-hyped, and the recipient of convenient match-making. If he had built up a record and standing with fans like guys like Jon Fitch and Machida have had to do, I’d be less abrasive about my distaste. But fact is, people see a lot more in Brock than is actually there. He’s a powerful dude and probably has some of the best wrestling in MMA; nobody is arguing that. I just think he’ll lose, and it will happen when he’s actually given a competent opponent that doesn’t play into his strengths. This Carwin fight is a joke; Shane was losing the fight against Gonzaga and was arguably hurt by Gonzaga’s punches before ending it with a back-stepping hook.
Point being,
I’m not saying there’s a better match-up or a more deserving HW at this particular instance in time, but Brock’s time will come. He is nowhere near the fighter than Anderson, GSP, Fedor and BJ are. I’d include Machida (who I am a fan of, despite my continued belief that he will lose to Shogun :| ) but he’s gotta prove himself a bit more to be on this list. Maybe someday Brock will be that good, but he’s not even 15% of the way to Anderson, in my opinion.
The question isn’t whether he is the fighter that Anderson Silva, GSP, Fedor, or BJ are… because he isn’t in terms of well roundedness or skills. But… he is very, very good at wrestling, and his power coupled with that could make him AS dominant as those names… without the actual skills.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
GSP & A-Bomb are more than just wins
The depth of their competition (esp. w/Anderson’s 205 ventures) will be stronger than Brock’s. this alone makes them seem more dominant to me.
look at the record of jon fitch before he fought GSP
I don’t know about you, but i’d rather see a guy come in and fight top guys off the bat than fight several low-mid level fighters to get to the top..
by Anton Tabuena on Aug 20, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Point Blank..
If Carwin doesn’t catch Lesnar with that one punch and win then there is Nobody that can defeat him currently in the UFC. I even think Fedor would have a ton of trouble with him.
If you want to beat Lesnar, clone a fighter with Kongo’s Striking, Cain’s Wrestling, Nog’s BJJ, and Randy’s Gameplanning and Savy.. and then you Might defeat him.
by SouthAlaBamaRampage on Aug 20, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions
Besides before coming back to MMA I’m sure Brock hadn’t wrestled (the martial art) in years given the time he spent in the WWE and dabbling in the NFL. Maybe that will have an effect when he comes up against a good wrestler that is his size.
So the amount of time he spent not wrestling is going to outweigh wrestling he’s done in the last few years training to be an mma fighter?
I’m saying it’s possible his skills have diminished. We haven’t really seen much of Lesnar’s wrestling in recent times against legit wrestlers that he doesn’t have a huge size advantage over. I think people are underestimating Carwin’s wrestling.
Did you not see the Mir fight?
Everything he did in that fight on the ground that wasn’t punching mir in the face was wrestling. Mir isn’t a wrestler, but he’s a ground wizard.
He also dominated Herring on the ground for 3 full rounds.
Mir is a ground wizard, but has pretty poor wrestling. Herring too is more of a striker than a wrestler. Nobody would completely forget how to wrestle given he probably did that day in day out for a good ten years. But what I am saying is that in a pure wrestling match the Brock Lesnar in college would probably out-wrestle Brock Lesnar of today.
Those years off shouldn’t have an effect. Carwin last wrestled in 1999 to win the Div. 2 title (Brock last did that in 2000), worked at an office job and dabbled in MMA starting in 2005, without fulling training until recently. He’s only had roughly 12 minutes of fight time, not much wrestling happened. While Brock has wrestled with Herring, MIr, and Couture. Carwin is arguably the next best wrestler in the UFC right now, so if he won’t be ale to, doubt anyone else will give Lesnar that problem.
Wait a second…
Next best wrestler in the UFC at HW, I assume? Credential-wise? Because he certainly hasn’t shown great wrestling in the cage.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I was debating the best wrestler, credential wise, in the HW division and curious as to how Carwin’s Division 2 championship compare to Velasquez’s All American status and Pac-10 championship? Velasquez has shown great wrestling in the cage, while Carwin hasn’t shown much. Also, who else has top notch wrestling in the HW division?
The guy with the best chance imo is Gonzaga so hopefully he can put together a couple of wins to get a title shot.
Also this is a little off topic but does anyone know if Gonzaga is training at Xtreme Couture permantly now or just for the Tuchscherer fight?
fightlockdown.com
Depends…
Gabe could probably easily bulk up to 265 as he usually comes in heavier anyways, and at that weight with his jiu-jitsu skills… it’s always a possibility. I would generally agree with your assessment though.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
There isn’t that much of a correlation, although at that high of a weight, there probably is more of an impact. Gonzaga weighed in at 257.5 against Carwin though, so it isn’t really going to affect his striking speed at all. If anything, it’ll affect his gas tank, which in turn will make his striking slower as the fight progresses.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Gonzaga is short, like the height of a welterweight, Brock would have a HUGE reach advantage. He may be listed as 6’1" but my driver’s license says I’m 175 pounds.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
I guess Gonzaga was on heels in that picture:
by dancingChicken on Aug 21, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Gets pulverized.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
I dunno… with the right amount of steroids
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/rankings/heavyweight/detail/730361
I think Josh could take Lesnar
He has the right combination of size, strength and skills to beat Lesnar to a decision.
I think people are going to be shocked by the beating Brock will give Carwin. Carwin hits hard, but I’m not overly impressed with his defense and footwork, which are the exact things he’s going to need to avoid taking damage and being taken down.
But I’m not going to count out Carwin, it should be a great fight.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
Depends on what you define as great…
There is a solid chance Carwin gets lambasted by Lesnar quickly.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If Lesnar lambasts Carwin right out of the gate, I’ll count that as pretty awe inspiring.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
I prefer wars as a definition of a great fight versus completely lopsided beatdowns.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Wars are nice, but sometimes seeing someone so dominant like Anderson Silva against Forrest is more memorable.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
By more memorable… you mean, you were laughing histerically. Just admit it. LOL
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel bad because i like Forrest so much, especially after reading his book, bu yeah… that fight was laughable.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really cause Forrest is one of my all time favorites, andI only got to make fun of subo for 24 hours before he got himself banned.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
Would you say that Anderson dominated Forrest moreso than Lesnar/ Mir?
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Big time.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
What Silva did to Forrest
was impressive, but stopping someone quickly & someone throwing their opponent a serious beatdown until the ref has to jump in to save them is way more dominant IMO.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
And he turned Mir's face into the elephants man
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean seriously.
Do you think that Mir was in any shape to get up & run out of the ring after that beating he took? lol
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
he would've been running away from Brock
if those security guards hadn’t formed a soccer wall
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to disagree, but at least Mir landed that one knee. Forrest ran into punches.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
And don't get me wrong,
Silva is the man & was dominant over Forrest. But Mir landing one knee does not diminish how dominated he was by Lesnar.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Silva generated more gifs.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
lol,
yes there were plenty of running man gifs going around after that fight. But if I were more skilled in that aspect I could have given them a run for their money! lol
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I guess thats what it comes down to, They dominated in different areas but pretty equally opened cartons of whoopass
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
There are numerous fights still possible in the heavyweight division that, although the hardcore MMA followers would not view as an interesting match up that is not one sided, the mainstream audience would still pay good money to see. There’s a big difference between being dominant in a division because of one’s skill-set is insurmountable by other contenders in the division and being dominant because of the name value behind the fighter. Even if Lesnar is by far the most dominating fighter after finishing Cain and Shane, other big match ups with other big name heavyweights such as Couture, Nogueira, Cro Cop, or even Bobby Lashley would draw big. The majority of MMA fans don’t make judgments on the competitiveness of belts by comparing skillsets, but instead looks at a fighters record, image, and name recognition.
We aren’t talking about name value here. That’s obvious. We are talking about Lesnar beating anyone who comes.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Carwin could be Lesnar's biggest test to date,
but if a guy of Carwin’s size can’t do it when who in the division currently can? I understand the UFC wants to make interesting matchups, but it seems kind of silly that Carwin gets Lesnar & then Cain gets the winner. I would think that these two top contenders would face each other first & then the winner gets Lesnar.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I voted no too. Not that I don’t think it will happen, but I do think that Carwin has the chance at winning or making it a real war. People make too much of “is it too soon for Carwin”. If he gets creamed by Brock, no amount of tune-up fights is going to get him ready for the schlacking Brock brings. If he grinds him out and loses a decision or back and forth then he’s proven to himself that he can compete. He can focus on the aspects of his game that need refining so he can up Brock next time. His next fights will be more productive and he’ll be up for a title shot again in 2-4 fights depending on the landscape at the time.
One fight with Brock now is worth 10 tune-up fights in terms of experience. Velasquez I think needs a little more experience.
velasquez
looked too vulnerable against Kongo. I do think this fight sets up an upset special thought, i wanna predict early
Carwin by TKO
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
People make too much of "is it too soon for Carwin". If he gets creamed by Brock, no amount of tune-up fights is going to get him ready for the schlacking Brock brings.
How is that accurate? No amount of tune-up fights? What about a vast amount of training in the wrestling department or in his striking? He could technically become very proficient at the sprawl, stopping Lesnar, and then throwing his own massive meathooks at Lesnar. I mean, a lot more training will help.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Your quote of me misses my point. If he’s way below Brock’s level and he’s gonna get smoked, a little more training and a few more fights isn’t going to change that (in my opinion). He’s been wrestling competitively for at least 10 years now, and training MMA for a couple, is a few more months of training and fights really going to have the same experiential quality as actually fighting the guy? I mean no one has even made it past minute 2 of the first round. So it’s a fine time to see where he’s at. No matter the outcome, he’ll be able to make the best of it and look towards next time.
I suppose your right in that training could help his stand-up, but what the Hell, there’s always going to be something that needs to be improved. Let him work these next few months on everything he thinks he needs and then bring it to the fight at 106.
Honestly, he needs to work on takedown defense and sprawl. Then explode those hamhocks he has of his own into Lesnar’s face. That’s the best strategy in my mind. Putting Brock on his back would be interesting though.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 21, 2009 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree with this
The way to train now is to get in some mammoth and awesome wrestlers i.e. the NCAA Brock Lesnars of today and have them go at him all day long. When he’s confident he can keep the fight standing then he can start exploding his striking into Brock’s face. Brock’s striking isn’t great…..
Don’t think anyone could put Brock on his back.
But if he dominates Shane completely, I’ll answer yes to that poll question. I don’t think Couture will be winning anytime soon. I suppose Nog has a bjj’s chance in hell. Otherwise I think Cro and Dos Santos’ punches would just bounce off that huge skull of his.
Nog isn't big enough to counter the power though
If anyone is going to win due to BJJ advantage, its either Mir or Gonzaga, who have the size to combat his power
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
When Shaq gets in the cage it’s gonna be curtains for Brock. He’s gonna use his basketball skills to shimmy around Brock and submit him.
There are already huge rumors that he apparently beat De La Hoya on Shaq Vs., although they give Shaq ridiculous advantages. Like he had to go 20 yards on Roethlisberger instead of 40. Of course, De La Hoya is fucking tiny in comparison to Shaq too.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
how many Q's do you have?
Don’t worry about it. Shaqtus.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Huh?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
the espn commercial with stuart scott on the bus, doing scrabble with shaq. obscure reference.
by Austin Martin on Aug 20, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhh…. okay. Now I’m getting it.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't worry about it.
Stuart Scott looked legitimately scared.
by Screwface on Aug 20, 2009 3:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Leland, there are actually videos of Shaq vs Oscar.. The size difference is huge and they have head gear on and all that
by SouthAlaBamaRampage on Aug 20, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll have to check them out.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 20, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
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