Quote of the Day: Why Fedor Emelianenko's and M-1's Co-Promotion Requirement Could Ruin MMA
by Luke Thomas on Aug 19, 2009 4:52 PM EDT
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"This simply isn't going to happen and not just because of the money. UFC has learned the main lesson of boxing's decline: You need to give people the fights they want to see. That can't be done when every fighter is a promotion unto himself, able to avoid taking on an opponent if he doesn't like the terms or his chances. To allow Emelianenko to co-promote with UFC would just be to encourage Lesnar, St-Pierre, Silva, and anyone else who wants more money and more control to hold out for the same rights. And that would be crippling to a nascent sporting cartel.
Another lesson learned from boxing's fall is to maintain a small fleet of champions. Boxing has about 70 major championships in 14 weight classes; UFC has five champions in five weight classes, and in four of them, the champ is unquestionably the best in the world at his weight. This monopoly on legitimacy, earned as UFC rose from being one of many promotions to become something more like the NBA of MMA, is arguably UFC's most important asset.
Emelianenko's absence won't harm UFC at the box office—aside from perhaps 100,000 hard-core fans who use his name as a sort of Masonic handshake, not many people know who he is, and several companies have gone out of business while trying to promote him in America. Refusing to play ball with the Russian will also preserve Dana White's company-man system. But in a broader sense—the one in which the company is perceived as the only major league in MMA—it hurts not to have the world's best. The legend of the real world champion, and the idea that UFC's top heavyweight's claim to the title is hardly undisputed, smells a bit of boxing's alphabet soup.
More importantly, UFC's failure to sign Emelianenko is a sign of what lays ahead as MMA continues to grow as a sport and as fighters become ever more famous. For right now, the sport's champions may be happy to fight on commission, but they won't always be—fighters who draw like Mike Tyson are going to want to be paid like Mike Tyson, and rightly so. The heavyweight champion probably won't be the last fighter to complain about UFC's policy, and he won't be the last one who's able to do something about it. As for the champ himself? His Strikeforce deal will be up in about a year, and then we'll get to do this all over again."
-- Tim Marchman writing in Slate.com.
There are some misinterpretations of how key elements of the sport operate, but there are two takeaways here. Whether this actually helps Emelianenko become a ratings or PPV draw in the long run is questionable, but he has the ability to capture the attention of big print or digital media. Positioning him outside of the UFC only raises his influence and specter as it draws in the might of the Zuffa organization to bring attention to the mysterious Russian.
Second, Marchman's contention that the eventual drawing power/celebrity appeal that MMA fighters and champions could one day reach might prove problematic for the UFC and for making important fights. large scale fights happen is a salient one. One promotion with operational control has the freedom and resources to make matters simultaneously amazing, meaningful, difficult for some and rewarding for fans. When that power is less centralized, that's when negotiations and the interplay of parties gets interesting.
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MMA is still in its infant stages, and while it is growing and attempting to gather respect and attention, I think one voice is the best way to go. One organization with clear champs. It’s confusing enough trying to explain to newbies what the ground game is all about. The last thing I want to do is have to explain why there are a dozen champs in several different organizations, and what belt means more, etc.
For now, the UFC model works. It works for the UFC, for MMA, and the fans. Does it necessarily help the fighters? I dunno. If you ask Chuck, he’ll probably say it’s a good thing. Ask a UFC castout, however, I’m sure they’re inclinded to disagree.
I love me some Sexyama!
Why there won't be another Fedor
The reason Fedor is considered so mythical is due in no small part because of the organization he fought for……PRIDE, which was able to build him up because of his showings against the top talent available at the time.
For any fighter to be considered on Fedor’s bargaining level, they would need a recognizable legitimate organization behind them. As of now, its UFC and everyone else. With japanese organizations fairly unknown stateside, it is impossible to see another free agent at the Fedor level.
What will eventually prevent the GSPs and Andersons from becoming free agents themselves is the lack of a legitimate contender to the UFC. As long as the status quo is maintained, Fedor will simply remain an anomaly in the MMA world.
by cyke on Aug 19, 2009 5:54 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Good point,while there are a number of middle-weight, welterweight and light heavies outside of the UFC . . . there’s not enough to challenge a great fighter like say . . . Gegard Mousasi
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 19, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor loses all his leverage as soon as he loses in the cage or ring.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 19, 2009 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
Absolutely
The draw is that he is undefeated and everyone wants to be first to beat him. If he loses people will still want to fight him, but he won’t be worth nearly as much as the UFC allegedly offered him.
MMA needs 2 Heavyweights… like Pride had the UFC to compete with , hopefully UFC with have Strikeforce/Dream/M1 to compete with
it means better pay, more fights, and more options for fans and fighters..
fun!
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Aug 19, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It means less great fights. Look at the history of the sport. The fragmentations have only hurt top quality fights….
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
yes, history proves that a healthy number 2 means better pay and more fights to fans??
didnt fans get to see 100 on Spike becasue of competition from strikeforce and wont they see a free UFC card when Fedor fights for Showtime and didnt they see Silva destroy James Irvin for free becasue of competition in the MMA marketplace and dont fighters have bargaining power when there is competition for their services?
and doesn’t competition provide more jobs for fighters?
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
Competition has given us:
1. Fighters being left in the dark for 6 months + due to organizations going out of business and the contracts being figured out.
2. Fights being cancelled on fighters.
3. The best not always fighting each other. Can you say Couture/Fedor? Lesnar/Fedor? Liddell/Silva in their prime?
4. UFC 100 would be rebroadcast no matter what. The ratings are too high on these rebroadcasts for SpikeTV to not do them.
5. The UFC hasn’t had any true competition over the last 3 or 4 years, and during that time, fighter pay has increase dramatically. And main event pay has gone up expodentially.
Looks like competition isn’t really needed. Top fighters will always be compensated well because it makes good business sense to keep them happy. The rest will be making an honest living.
And if the UFC had access to all fighters, we are more likely to have a weekly show. That is a LOT of MMA.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
right...
I’m fine with UFC, as I’m fine with NBA and NFL.
I just wait if womeone will come out with an idea of CDA becoming healthy competion for NBA and signing half of a young talent:)
There needs to be something like Strikeforce, on a lower level, to filter a talent for UFC. Sorry Coker.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 19, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
There is a huge fallacy out there that Zuffa’s competition to drive them forward has to be another MMA company. MMA isn’t a product like car tires it’s entertainment, there will always be competition in the field of entertainment to push them to higher levels. Their competition is every sport in existence and every tv program out there that comes on at the same time as one of their programs. It’s one of the reasons that so called monopolies in sports do work, because it’s not really a market monopoly, even if they control all of one sport they still don’t control the audiences tv remotes and they can’t force anyone to buy their ppvs. There will always be a entertainment choice for the target audience and that is what will keep driving Zuffa forward not a competing MMA organization.
by who me on Aug 19, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Why does NBC put the Patriots v Colts on sunday night football when there isn’t another football game on? Why does ESPN always pick up the Yankees v Red Sox? Why does ABC option for Celtics v Cavs? Why would ESPN pay like $10 billion for the BCS rights?
RATINGS!
Not to go against the NBDL, or AAA baseball, it’s to go up against the Disney movie of the week, or Scrubs repeats, or a Freinds cast reunion. It’s to grab a market share from the general public, not a given sport’s die-hard fans.
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 7:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
1. when has strikeforce done this?
2.when has strikeforce canceled a card?
3. the UFC is preventing Fedor/Couture or any other big fights, no one else… do fans care if its a copro? or do you just want to see the fight?
4. OK? but you got to see it last week? why would they rebroadcast it if they didnt have too? except to counter program against the competition.
5. no competition? i guess counter programming elitexc and strikeforce and affliction was just for fun.
with strikeforce doing well, more fighters and fight related people are making a living, then if the UFC was the only game in town.
this is go on forever, monopoly vs competition… i just feel more people more good livings is more important than the UFC owning the sport.
i am a giant fan of the UFC, but i feel the sport is bigger then just one company.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
And the more orgs the more business you get and the more money you make with allelbows.com
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
So rather than allowing MMA to compete with other major sports, you’re content with constant infighting? When boxing was huge on TV they weren’t showing the Hector Leguillo’s of the world, they were showing the George Foreman’s, the Ali’s, the Sugar Ray Robinson’s. And all of them made a pretty damn good living.
Why would the UFC being a monopoly jeopardize fighter pay, job security or fans? If you don’t make it in the NFL, you get cut, and I don’t see anyone demonizing them for taking someone’s job. If you’re a good enough fighter, you keep your job, simple as that. If you get cut, go fight on Adrenaline’s next card.
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 7:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
1. Strikeforce isn’t the only other company out there. It should be obvious that they never had to cancel events due to going out of business due to the fact that they haven’t gone out of business.
2. Once again, Strikeforce isn’t the only other company out there, but they have had their difficulties in getting fights to happen as planned.
3.That’s a very complicated issue and you know it. It’s not just the UFC keeping it from happening it’s a product of how the business works. Having multiple organizations increases the problem in this area.
4. Spike TV broadcast what it wants when it wants and they do it for one reason, to get television ratings. Lets not act like Zuffa calls Spike and forces them to counter-program those timeslots, it’s a product of how television networks work.
5. Everything that shows on tv is counter-programming for everything else on tv at that same timeslot. The whole point of putting shows on tv is to get people to watch your show instead of the other guys. It’s not just about other MMA orgs having shows it’s about Spike TV wanting viewers to chose to watch Spike TV. There will never be a situation where there is no competition because in the entertainment industry it’s all competition with everything else. You think the NFL rest on it’s laurels just because they are a functioning sports monopoly? No they push it as hard as they can every year because the goal isn’t to control one sport it’s to get as many viewers as possible and that challenge never ends.
You are just way oversimplifying the monopoly vs competition issue here, these things are just a lot more complicated than that. Of course there will always be multiple organizations, Zuffa doesn’t want to control the entire sport they want to control the top of the sport, they need lesser orgs and feeder leagues, not to mention it’s also good for them if fighters that get cut can fight somewhere else and continue to evolve (plenty of guys get cut and come back later, heck that is pretty much the pattern). There is lots of room for other organizations out there, the only issue with competition comes when someone tries to take market share away from the UFC at the top.
by who me on Aug 19, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I would love to see The UFC at the very top, and then Strikeforce & DREAM working as a feeder system.
These organizations are very much needed to cultivate talent, but not just to compete with the UFC.
For this very reason, I wouldn’t be shocked to see the UFC create their own farm system through a weekly TV show. It’s their only choice. Any other company who find moderate success all of a sudden gets big balls and tries to compete. They can’t risk that….
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
FYI...
Liddell and Silva did get a chance to meet in a Pride Final Conflict 2003 but Liddell was KTFOd by Rampage.
yeah, i was going to mention that… was that the last time UFC shared a fighter?
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
why would they continue to share?
They had a deal with Pride to get them to send people back, and they never came through.
Hence the problem with co-promotion. It likely won’t be long before DREAM and Strikeforce suffer from the same issues.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The competition was a means to destroy the competition. Strikeforce will be the last promotion that emerges and tries to challenge the UFC. Every time a compeditor goes under the UFC consolidates their base.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
UFC has actually gotten stronger with each company that has failed underneith them. They have gained more top fighters, and gained more market share.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
“Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.”
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I see this whole thing as Rome being the UFC and Pride being Carthage. The 3rd Punic war has just ended, Rome is the undisputed superpower in the Mediterranean basin, and some random Gallic tribes (Strikeforce/Dream/M-1) are causing shit on the northerm borders, just asking to be invaded.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You must have a B.A. in History
because I just see companies wanting to make shitloads of money.
But I guess now we know what’s going to happen with the UFC, since the Roman Republic doubled in size in the decades after the Punic Wars (do you capitalize Punic Wars in English?)
Also, who would that make White be? I’m guessing Marius
The Romans never salted the earth at Carthage. Carthage was a very productive grain producing area, it would serve no purpose to destroy something you spent a hundred years fighting for control over.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
White = Augustus
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
My bad
I didn’t know we could pick Emperors.
White=Caligula
If the UFC is Rome then they should worry about Strikeforce/Dream/M-1 or should I say the Vandals/Visigoths/Burgundians?
Nah. Rome is still expanding
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
It’s funny because I was thinking of the UFC=Roman Empire analogy a little while back, but lately I’ve been thinking that Coker is Lawrence of Arabia. It’s a strange theory/feeling I’m working on, but in a couple of years from now we may look back and surprised that the UFC was #1.
And the reason for it is that all the major stars have long-term contracts with the UFC.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
How so? Just because those guys have long term contracts doesn’t mean the UFC has to keep them long term. It’s a performace based sport, if you aren’t winning then they are going to let you go.
What I mean is, and this is just me throwing a wild idea out there, is that if this is a WAR between Strikeforce and the UFC then Coker has to fight it on his terms, not the UFC’s.
Little known fact but the underdog wins a lot in war. David beat Goliath, the Americans beat the British Empire, the Mujadeen beat the Soviets, we lost to the Viet Cong. But what they have to do to win is not fight the favorites fight.
Americans beat the British because the British barely cared. No way where they going to send their entire army over here for a war.
Coker has no real major source of income like the UFC does. He can be outbid for most fighters.
How does he win that?
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
And typically in business, the big company swallows the little one.
And in war, the bigger more advanced army almost always wins.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If you fight their fight.
You are in a fight with a major empire what do you do?
Make him defend everything. The Arabs didn’t go right at the Ottoman Legions they hit his weak spots – the trains. The UFC wants to buy up most fighter contracts so they can’t fight for you, let him. He has to buy 10 times the contracts you do. You just make sure you get a select few so you can argue you have the talent that worth watching. You don’t have a star, build them up. You are going to be on TV (CBS) getting more exposure than the UFC. If they want to buy your new start away from you let them, all they are doing is driving up the price of all the other fighters on their roster.
No.
The UFC will not drive up the price of the rest of their roster at this point. Let’s say Diego Sanchez is making $60k/$60k….. And then they offer Jake Shields $75k/$75k. What is Sanchez going to do about that? Leave the UFC? There aren’t many options for that.
Not to mention it is highly likely that the UFC has the room for payroll expansion.
Lastly, CBS does not equal revenues. CBS will get most of the money from the advertisers. In order for Strikeforce to compete with the UFC, they need to get on PPV. And they have nobody to sell to the public that will work. even CBS exposure won’t help because they will have given away the fighters for free…. so who is going to pay for them afterwards?
The UFC just had two PPV’s in a row that combined for about 2.5 Million PPV Buys. They get about 50% of the revenues. That’s $56 Million. Obviously they have payroll and expenses…. But I wouldn’t be shocked if they came out with a cool $10 Million + profit from those two events combined. Nicely put, they have a huge bankroll to use as funny money. Strikeforce does not.
And you can’t build a MMA organization when your talent is being poached every two years.
In closing, Scott Coker doesn’t even have time to figure out who is going to be on their next card right now. I highly doubt he has the brain power to compete with Fertitta.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we go with the analogy that the UFC is an empire then they too have weaknesses.
1) They want complete control so they will have to bare all the costs
20 They have to show they are number 1. They can’t let anyone else lay claim to that title and will have to spend to defend that position.
If you’re Strikeforce, the only way you can win is staying away from trying to play the UFC’s game. That’s why I think the co-promotion with Dream is great for them, especially if they can start broadcasting those events on Showtime.
1) It costs little for Showtime to produce
2) They give their fighters a chance to get an extra pay-day
3) They can air events and build up new fighters with their audience.
That’s a win for them, since they can now produce and promote a fighter and less cost then the UFC has to spend to buy them away.
Co-promoting means they will be getting fighters on one off occassions, making it nearly impossible to build them up.
All the UFC has to do is steal 6 fighters, and Strikeforce is crippled:
Brett Rogers, Alistair Overeem, Nick Diaz, Jake Shields, and Gilbert Melendez.
Lastly, the UFC doesn’t have to break the bank to bring in new fighters. They can steal them away well within what they can afford. You example would work if the UFC had to over reach to steal fighters away. They really don’t.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, but I’m also thinking there is more to co-promotion than just letting each of them use their fighters. I’m thinking, since I remember hearing that Dream wants to scale back it’s number of shows per year and Strikeforce wants to show more per year, they would air each others card cutting costs and building up fighters which could come over to fight on Strikeforce at a later date.
Co-Promotion never works in the long term. Like ever.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Here is what really is going to happen. The UFC is going to make strong offers to anybody Strikeforce wants to keep. Strikeforce HAS TO hold onto a few of them or they become irrelevent. Therefore, they will overpay for a few fighters.
If they sign nobody, they lose all talent. If they sign a few, they can’t afford it. If they sign all, they really can’t afford it.
You are acting like this is war. This is business. The bigger companies almost always win.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
But the few they keep they only have to pay a little more than the UFC to keep them. But everyone else in the UFC is going to want to get what they’re getting.
First, they have to pay them a lot more to make up for the lack of exposure they’d be getting bynot being in the UFC, and lack of exposure means lack of sponsors.
Second, the UFC would never outpay enough to blow up their business model When Affliction offered AA 1.5 mil guaranteed to fight Edor, they let him walk, they knew AA couldn’t generate 1.5 mil in a fight, so they didn’t try.
by Phildo on Aug 19, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What?
The Strikeforce fighters will be on CBS and Showtime. Plus their sponsors won’t have to kick in 100K to Strikeforce to sponsor them.
I’d imagine that Sponsors will be more than happy to compensate the fighters of Strikeforce.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
IF they get on CBS.
There’s no way anyone fighting on Showtime can sniff what a Zuffa fighter gets on Spike or PPV.
CBS will help with their 4 cards a year, but I honestly think people are way jumping the gun on that.
PPV and Showtime
Non UFC 100 PPV’s have been doing about the same viewership as Carano/Cyborg just did last weekend.
If Strikeforce does 4 CBS shows per year. That should be every bit as attractive to a sponsor as what the UFC could provide. Just sayin
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
4 shows on CBS would be attractive to sponsors, but not to the fighters.
If a fighter got a contract that guaranteed all his fights would be on CBS, then they would get more exposure than a UFC fighter, but that’s dreamland, no one would get that contract, no one would give that contract (not to mention strikeforce telling you you’re going to be on TV is subject to change up until the last second, apparently)
In general, UFC fighters have much higher exposure than Strikeforce fighters, CBS or no CBS, and that’s what sponsors want, exposure. Especially when you take into account all the random UFC shit that’s on Spike. being on a huge PPV with the possibility of multiple replays on spike is worth more than being on CBS once and then multiple replays on showtime.
What was the UFC's profile 3 fights in?
Naturally the UFC would have a higher profile TODAY. Strikeforce has been on Showtime for 3 months. Every show has drawn a bigger audience.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
That isn’t relevant to their profile today, which is what will matter to the fighters and the sponsors.
by Phildo on Aug 20, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But the UFC doesn’t lose when they spend money to buy the fighter away.
That’s why their business plan works. They can afford to outpay Strikeforce and still make money. If strikeforce builds a star and pays them more than Zuffa can afford, Zuffa will let them go (just like they did with Strikeforce).
by Phildo on Aug 19, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Phildo is correct.
At the end of the day, Strikeforce doesn’t make enough money to keep their stars. And Showtime has never been able to create high PPV Ratings for any of it’s programming.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re probably right. I’m talking more a hypothetical about how you would win. And I’m saying don’t go directly at them. Let the UFC spend. They’re a new company (successful as hell), privately held. Not some massive conglomerate. They have finite funds.
But they aren’t going to overspend.
You’re whole theory here is based on them overspending, but we have an example less than a year old that shoots your theory in the foot.
They just let Afflcition spend way too much money and drown themselves, why would they do anything different to Strikeforce?
Everyone always comes up with these theories of how org X is going to kill the UFC, can’t we just look at the facts and history and see that it’s not that easy?
1). Who said the UFC wanted complete control? They don’t want to own the sport they want to own the top of the sport, two very different things. Strikeforce is wanting to do a huge number of shows next year, that cost money and takes having a significant roster of marketable athletes and that cost.
2). Everyone so far has claimed they are number one, that doesn’t become an issue until someone proves it.
Look at EliteXC on CBS, they had two good shows and one bad one (and really when you get down to it the good ones weren’t great, ICarly on Nick crushed everything EliteXC did with a episode on MMA). When they weren’t pushing Kimbo CBS wasn’t drawing viewers. The UFC didn’t have to prove anything they just had to wait for the house of cards to fall apart. MMA didn’t draw on network TV, KImbo Slice did.
Oh and what does Showtime have to do with the Dream-Strikeforce alliance? Doesn’t Dream have a tv contract with HDnet?
The co-promotion (before it falls apart) will help Coker get fighters into TV slots. It won’t do anything else for his product. Why would you put a fighter on CBS or Showtime that you don’t have the ability to promote his next fight? That makes no sense.
They don’t even have one fight announced for their September 25th ShoMMA card. They don’t even have their act together really.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m assuming that they’ll manage to break that HDnet contract somehow and air their co-promoted events on Showtime.
And you and Phildo and Always relaxing are always nailing my wild ideas so I’d like to know if you guys could posit any realistic theory on how Strikeforce could compete with the UFC?
They need to stop signing guys like Fedor. Don’t go on PPV. Basically, don’t be a threat to the UFC, and become a defacto feeder system.
Anything less then this, they are likely to get wrecked. Might not go out of business, but likely will lose most of their fighters.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
No I have no idea how Strikeforce could compete with the UFC, I do see how they could fill an available niche and even thrive but at this point going after UFC market share goes against that.
People want to toss around all sorts of historical events for comparison, instead I would put out that currently Zuffa is Coke-a-Cola but instead of Strikeforce being Pepsi they would be RC cola. The industry leader has way to much of a lead and the cost of cutting into that would be prohibitive but there is a very strong niche market to latch onto for long term survival and manageable growth.
The one thing Strikeforce has done up to now that has really worked for them is stayed out of the org wars and concentrated on their own survival and growth. I’m not sure why they would want to toss out what works and go into something so financially dangerous? To jump on Zuffa you have to have deep deep pockets, and the ability to absorb massive losses for what will probably be years to even stay in the game. There is more than enough room for both to exist but there can only be one at the top, going for the top is an all or nothing move that they just don’t have the backing or the infrastructure to pull off.
They shouldn’t be competing with the UFC.
The hole in the MMA world is good second tier organizations. They were making plenty of money doing that.
if they wanted to become a big boy, they should have waited until they got better exposure nationally before going after the big fish (fedor). Fedor’s costs are too high to be a good local show/2nd tier national show.
I would also say, don’t get in the way of the UFC signing a fighter that the UFC wants.
Strikeforce has gotten in the way of the UFC signing Cung Le and Gegard Mousasi. While they didn’t exactly get in the way for Fedor, they did give him another avenua to pursue.
It would be like a AAA team not letting the MLB team have a player. Really kind of stupid.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
OK a hypothetical for you three:
Five years from now the UFC has cemented it’s place as the one true MMA org. It’s the NBA, the NFl, MLB of MMA. All the great fighters are there. Gegard, arguable the the top pound for pound heavyweight meets with Zuffa about fighting Cain for the HW title. They offer him $1 mil and tell him the fight will generate 2.5 mil PPV. Would that be fair? What leverage would Gegard have to ask for more if there was no one else to fight for? What reason would the UFC have to pay more if there is nowhere else he could go?
The UFC has never been unfair to their fighters when it comes to money. Can’t see that changing.
And there is always the risk of a competitor coming into the sport. Entry in MMA is easy (staying in business is not). So there is always motivation to keep your stars happy with good pay.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 20, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m a little confused? If no one should compete with them why would they have to worry about competition?
And they’ve never been unfair? I thought Keith Jardine only getting $10,000 to fight Wanderlie was a little unfair.
He was being paid more than that and has said he has no complaints with his compensation.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
the list of people complaining about their money in the UFC has shrunk significantly.
Roger Huerta can’t complain for Jardine because Huerta doesn’t know what Jardine is making, that is why the UFC keeps the real salary numbers under wraps.
The UFC will keep raising salary to keep the best athletes in the sport. They will pay their fighters what is fair. There was no real competition 3 weeks ago and they offered Fedor a shit ton of money, more than anyone else could. If they don’t pay the athletes a fair amount, someone else will come along and start a company and steal their fighters.
Look at the people who have complained about pay. Randy, came back. Tito, came back. Why did they come back? Because the UFC offers the most money. How can the org that pays the most money be cheating their fighters? It’s supply and demand. If there was more demand than what the UFC pays, someone would be able to pay more than them successfully. But since no one is able to pay more than them, they are paying the right amount. Why is this so difficult to grasp?
Actually no most of the time the underdog loses the war, there are a lot of different kinds of strengths besides brute strength.
David vs Goliath-Bible Parable
America vs British Empire- Well the Americans and the French(and the Dutch and the Spanish) and the fact that the the war actually took place thousands of miles away from where British military might was based.
Mujadeen vs Soviets- Well the Mujadeen backed by massive US logistics and support.
US vs Vietnam- Might of been a different story if it wasn’t for the fact that it wasn’t an actual war.
As far as this entertainment industry tussle instead of world history I’m not sure where the difference is from not fighting the favorite’s fight? This isn’t military strategy it’s basic economics.
The political scientist Ivan Arreguín-Toft recently looked at every war fought in the past two hundred years between strong and weak combatants. The Goliaths, he found, won in 71.5 per cent of the cases. That is a remarkable fact. Arreguín-Toft was analyzing conflicts in which one side was at least ten times as powerful—in terms of armed might and population—as its opponent, and even in those lopsided contests the underdog won almost a third of the time.
What happened, Arreguín-Toft wondered, when the underdogs likewise acknowledged their weakness and chose an unconventional strategy? David’s winning percentage went from 28.5 to 63.6.
And as for entertainment analogy look no further than the UFC. When they couldn’t get coverage for their sport what did they do? Make their own reality show.
So you redefine the terms and you can change the statistics. A favorite tool of political scientist.
Not sure where that changes anything for Strikeforce in this situation though. Your analysis seems to revolve around them making Zuffa overpay to get everyone but that would be stupid (and something that Zuffa just doesn’t do), the inverse is that if you want to play on Zuffa’s level then you have to outspend Zuffa to lure the names away. Strikeforce is wanting to put on 20 shows a year, that means that if they want anything near comparable results over a comparable number of shows they are going to have to have comparable roster’s and comparable advertising and follow comparable income streams. Letting the other guy spend himself out of business isn’t a Zuffa weakness it’s what they have repeatedly done to other organizations, why would they fall into the same trap when they aren’t the one’s who have to overspend to get the needed talent to compete?
I looked up some stuff on this guy you cite. He is even claiming we went from victory to defeat in Iraq. I think he has a different definintion of what “losing” a war really means.
The Nazi’s LOST WW2. So did the Japanese. They were decimated. Under this guys definition, we would have lost Vietnam too, which is not the case as we have only become strong since then.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I don’t really like the guy but he has some good stats to throw around.
But I will disagree with you on Vietnam. By are own definition we lost. And a lot of Nations grow stronger in defeat. The British lost the 100 year war and in hindsight it was a benefit. They turned they eye from continental Europe outward and created an empire.
The Arab Bureau...
destroyed the Ottoman Empire, not T.E. Lawrence…
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 10:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
more competition the better....
why only 2? I hope m1 will grow in power, Dream will become huge, Belator will start regular promotions, someone will come out with serious money and revive IFL + Donnie Trump will pump a few million to make dozen more afflictions.
This way we’ll have 5 promotions – it’s always better. Healthy competition
by UniversalSoul on Aug 19, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This way we’ll have 5 promotions – it’s always better. Healthy competition
yeah great idea.
Hello WBC WBA IBF and WBO of the MMA world.
by pr0cs on Aug 19, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
What big boxers haven't fought each other?
Every boxer of note has fought each other over the last 5 years.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I laughed really hard when he described Fedor’s name as a masonic handshake amongst hardcore fans. If i ever meet someone in person who tries to say they are knowledgeable about mma i always ask who the best HW in the world is and if they dont answer Fedor i dont bother continuing the conversation.
Slate.com as long been a defender of MMA. Back in 1999, they published a series of articles saying it should be a great American sport.
Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 19, 2009 6:01 PM EDT reply actions
I wish M-1 would go out of business already.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
The way M-1 operates it looks more like a money-laundering operation than a business.
They want to co-promote, so they’d spend a bunch of money (which they got from somewhere), and then after the event get a bunch of legitimate revenue in return.
This is the only reason I can come up with to explain their irrational insistence on co-promotion. It doesn’t earn them anything extra; all it does is accelerate that rate at which money flows through them. That’s perfect for money-laundering.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Aug 19, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Luke beat me to this
I’d have posted these two paragraphs:
The most important effect of MMA’s salary silence may be that it perverts the idea of pay-for-performance. Much as in boxing, a fighter’s earning power is tied to public appeal rather than athletic success. Emelianenko’s main rival for the title of best pound-for-pound fighter, middleweight Anderson Silva, has generally not drawn well for UFC. Frauds like middleweight Michael Bisping and has-beens like light heavyweight Chuck Liddell have greatly outdrawn far superior fighters. Emelianenko, the sport’s long-reigning exemplar, might feel like he deserves a load of guaranteed money. But that isn’t how UFC works.
Whatever the virtues of this system as an engine of profits, it concentrates enormous power in the hands of the promoter. This is a problem for White, who tends to come off as a capricious megalomaniac. He’s spewed vicious attacks at reporters, publicly feuded with top stars like Tito Ortiz and Randy Couture, and essentially blackballed certain fighters from the company for no evident reason. He makes up for it by putting on great shows and doing right by brawlers like Liddell, whom the UFC president forced into retirement after it was clear he would endure further brain damage if he got back into the cage. White is a decent man and a hell of a promoter in a grand American line of carny barkers, more Bill Veeck than Vince McMahon. Still, the UFC system, and White’s excesses, don’t sit well with Emelianenko. “The UFC attitude towards fighters is not a good one,” he says. “They don’t treat them like human beings.”
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
"The UFC attitude towards fighters is not a good one," he says. "They don’t treat them like human beings."
So was the footage all faked on the Dana video blogs when Dana and the rest of UFC management hug, joke, and shake hands with their fighters? Very inhumane treatment these from Dana White.
by cyph on Aug 19, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
actually
a lot of that stuff looks very forced and awkward with some fighters… and you think you’re seeing 100% reality on a Dana Vlog, c’mon.
Yes because they really gave a shit about what the couple of thousand people who watched those though about their interpersonal relationships with the fighters. There were a bit of behind the scenes and a bit of marketing for the events but honestly people seem to be reading way too much meaning (good or bad) into them.
For the record I never noticed anything at all being forced or awkward in there, if anything everyone seemed to be very chummy and a bit goofy. Of course it wasn’t 100% reality it was 10 minute video clips, you can’t get to see everything that really goes on in 10 minutes, but that doesn’t mean it was all fake either.
I wasn't implying
that it is fake, I’m saying that some of the fighters probably think DW is a giant dick and it shows a little when he walks into a room and his favorites chumming it up and others shake his hand awkwardly cause he’s the boss and immediately bolt out of the room… and its edited, not in the sense that its manipulated but in the sense that you’re only gonna see what DW and crew want you to see.
Of course it’s edited, it’s only a ten minute clip and of course they show what White wants shown it’s clips that are about him, he knows when the cameras are there, hell he is talking directly to them. Did anyone ever think it was anything different?
As far seeing guys acting awkwardly or immediately bolting to get away from him I don’t remember seeing any of that. I’m sure there are guys who are uncomfortable with a camera shoved in their face though so unless you know what they are thinking you don’t know why they are reacting the way they are reacting.
editing!!
did you get to see Dana and Brock’s talk after 100??? thats right.. editing!
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
Nobody saw Dana and Brock’s talk.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You say that like it is a bad thing or something rare.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
So was the footage all faked on the Dana video blogs when Dana and the rest of UFC management hug, joke, and shake hands with their fighters? Very inhumane treatment these from Dana White.
no. homeboy was just using VLOGS has evidence that everything is hug, joke, and shake hands with fighters.. when vlogs are just a marketing tool.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
I can’t take someone serious who is not objective. And, by virtue of you being a Strikeforce employee, you can not be objective.
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 10:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
And it is nothing personal. If anyone from the UFC, or DREAM, or Sengoku were on here bashing Strikforce, I’d feel the same way.
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 11:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Fedor has very little main stream appeal. He doesn’t look tough. He doesn’t speak English. People who know the sport know who he is. He just isn’t a draw without the UFC.
It is highly unlikely that the sport will go towards the boxing model. Once Fedor loses, the guy who beat him will eventually make it to the UFC. At this point, no fighter can leave the UFC without being perceived at avoiding the best. Boxing never had this, so it was easy to just make a second title.
If all the Top 10 guys fight in one organization, even if the champion leaves, he will have nobody to fight. Which means the fighter has no leverage.
To further my point, what we are going to see with Fedor over the next year is…. All of his potential opponents will likely be signed by the UFC. When Fedor’s contract is up in a year, he might have nobody left to fight. Heck, that could happen even sooner. And what happens when he is the only relevent Top 10 or Top 15 guy outside the UFC? Very simple…. He becomes pointless, no matter who tries to promote him. This is already happening to Mousasi & Shields. Shields already moved up a weight class, and Mousasi will likely to just to get fights.
Even Tito Ortiz realized at the end of the day that the FANS wanted him in the UFC. And the big fighters were in the UFC. This public pressure is more so then you realize. Fedor’s manager is just too corrupt to care. That won’t always be the case.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You may be wasting too much energy pushing your points once and again on every single post that even mentions strikeforce or Emelianenko. Most people are already on the UFC´s side on this one. It seems to me that you are arguing with yourself.
Just because something is said often does not mean it shouldn’t be said.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 19, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If you have nothing to add to my post, then just don’t respond. It’s as simple as that.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hmm, Dana writes for Slate?
“To allow Emelianenko to co-promote with UFC would just be to encourage Lesnar, St-Pierre, Silva, and anyone else who wants more money and more control to hold out for the same rights. And that would be crippling to a nascent sporting cartel.”
This would only be true if Lesnar, St.Pierre and Silva started their own promotion business that didn’t specialize in the American market, in other words a terrible analogy. More options, rights and money going to the fighters would not be crippling to the UFC, it would hurt their bottom line minimally. IMO you can’t blame the UFC for their position but likewise you can’t blame M-1, some company is going to have to take risks and step up if there is going to be some diversity, and what’s wrong with diversity? I don’t think co-promotion is good all the time, but if M-1 can bring a little more to the table down the line, co-promotion would be good for mma in general every once and while.
Huh?
What does M-1 bring to the table besides Fedor? That awesome Red Devil team?
And if the ufc did agree to split half the profits with M-1, George St. Pierre, Anderson Silva, Brock Lesnear, etc. couldn’t immediately set up their own promotions to do exactly the same thing? Put down the crack pipe my friend.
by pwdminotauro on Aug 19, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
What does M-1 bring to the table besides Fedor? That awesome Red Devil team?
This is precisely the point. The UFC has very little, if anything, to gain from promoting with M-1. The only M-1 fighters I can think of that should be in the UFC are Fedor and Mousasi. M-1 has nothing else to bring into the relationship. Why should Zuffa waste resources building up two fighters for a potential competitor? Zuffa and M-1 are both for profit businesses. They care about making money first and foremost.
you obviously
didn’t read far enough champ, I said I could see why the UFC made the decision not to co-promote, but I can also see M-1’s reason for asking for it, even if they only have Fedor… its business and you have to have some balls if you’re gonna make some impact.
Put down the UFC pom poms. You UFC drones are so short-sighted. How long is a career in MMA and how quickly can all the rankings change? You don’t think in a couple of years M-1 and Strikeforce and a deal with Showtime can garner some talent and interest. Coker is a good business man and they’re not necessarily trying to compete in the PPV market. There’s thousands of up and coming fighters… you groupies can’t see past the next episode of TUF.
I’m all for more options for fighters and fans.
"what’s wrong with diversity?"
Nothing, if you actually have something to offer other than one fighter. But since no other promotion can a) pay as much as the UFC can, b) provide the kind of exposure the UFC can and c) provide better fighters than the UFC can then this seems like an unlikely scenario.
I don’t care about competition in sports. The NFL, MLB and NBA put the best in the world against each other. That’s how it should be. As MMA gets bigger and the higher-tier athletes all achieve Liddell-like levels of fame then the pay will follow.
by ihateemo on Aug 19, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The NFL, MLB and NBA have teams competing with each other….AND a union.
If you are a decent player…one team can cut you and you’ll end up on another team under the league.
UFC is a 1-team “league”.
Them being the only org paying livable wages is bad for fighters.
Strikeforce, Dream, Sengoku…they’re all needed as mid-level orgs for good fighters to make good/decent money if the UFC tries to lowball them.
by MickDawg on Aug 19, 2009 8:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Correct, they are needed as MID-LEVEL organizations. The problem is when they try and compete with the UFC…. When they do that, they hurt the sport.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only thing I have to add to that is, if you are not good enough to play in the NFL (UFC) like any number of drafted players (see Leites, Thales) then there are plenty of mortgages and used cars to be sold in the world.
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 11:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
People act like the UFC "lowballing’ fighters is a very common thing with the UFC, while completely ignoring the fact that everyone who has tried to pay fighters more than them is now out of business.
It would be nice if more people could make a living wage fighting, but the market doesn’t support that right now. The market supports the 25th guy in the dugout on the Tigers making 390,000 a year. It doesn’t support that many fighters making a living wage.
When the market increases, salaries will increase, it’s capitalism.
Oh, those poor fighters
Lots of people want to be professional football players too, but there’s no reason for lots of smaller satellite leagues to exist just so people can make money doing it.
If you’re a good fighter you’ll make money in the UFC. If you’re not a good fighter or you aren’t making the kind of money you think you should be in MMA, perhaps you should get a real job.
by ihateemo on Aug 19, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That answer reminds me when I was in college and people would complain about college football players bitching about not getting compensated for all the money they bring into the campus. “I would just be happy to play in college.”
Yes you would be happy with just that, because you’re not good enough to play college ball.
I would of happily played a game in college(any game) in exchange for getting to go to college for free. Heck if I just recently finished paying for my college, I’m 40 years old. The scholarship is the compensation. What is really a shame is all those college athletes that don’t take advantage of the educational opportunity presented to them.
Of course the general premise above is still correct too, being a MMA fighter is a privilege not a right and there are no guarantees that anyone will be able to make a living doing it. It is a mistake to treat being an athlete as a typical career because it isn’t.
by who me on Aug 19, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ve been comparing the UFC to the NFL which is unfair, it’s more like the PGA, I know a lot of people who play golf who would love to be able to do it for a living, but they suck, so they can’t.
by Screwface on Aug 19, 2009 11:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
inchoate – only partly in existence; imperfectly formed; “incipient civil disorder”; “an incipient tumor”; “a vague inchoate idea”
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/inchoate
That’s your $10 word of the day.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
Just as well you should learn some new words, you megaly!
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
ha
That post was meant to be a reply to the post above it where SES 84 mentions Luke’s “SAT” words.
He used the word “inchoate” in the Marquardt article, and that post made me think of it. I read a lot, and have never heard that word before that article.
Why a monopoly is bad
1. Purses will be lower
If there is only one organization who"Nate’s the new #1 challenger". And what will Dan do if there is no one else to offer competitive wages? Shut up and take it.
2. The UFC will have undue influence over fighter rankings
Everyone wants to compare the UFC and MMA to the NBA and NBA, but there are several big differences: in those a playoff determines who’s best, There is no dodging who’s number 1. But how does the UFC pick it’s number 1 contender? I don’t know. I don’t know how Brock got to be #1 (I’m not knocking him being #1 I’m just asking how he got the title shot). I don’t know how Shogun got to be #1. Actually I do know, the UFC picked them because they thought they could sell a card. And this, to me, is a problem. If the UFC wants to they can make anyone a contender. If they don’t like you and you’re not charismatic, they can put you on an undercard. At least in the either major sports, the winner goes on. If not would Orlando have made the NBA finals last year? Would Florida have won the World Series in 2003?
And we don’t even have checks and balance with the commentator because the UFC picks the announcing team and produces all the programming, unlike say, the NFL were the station picks the broadcaster and they are free to say what they want with minimum interference from the teams. Will fans be complaining in the future if they don’t even know the best fighters are being stuck on the undercard or pushed out, while their “analysis” tout some TUF winner as the best thing in the world.
Shit I have to get back to work, so I want have time to finish my rant.
by John Nash on Aug 19, 2009 6:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A UFC monopoly will make MMA one of the biggest sports in the world in the shortest possible amount of time.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
This!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 19, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
So?
That’s like rallying for a transnational corporation that builds cars and pays their workers shite, simply because you like cars.
by bleve_ on Aug 19, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Zuffa pays more and more consistently than anyone else.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, but does it match up with other major sports. I don’t mean do they pay as much as pro baseball or basketball, but do the fighters make a percentage close to what players in other sports make in relation to revenue?
I think the only way that happens is if a Fighter´s Association is formed.
Dana White would give the most bleeped out interview the day that happens.
I would love for a union or association to form, but I don’t see it. What leverage do the undercard fighters have? At least in team sports the 5-11th guy on the football field has value. Ask the QB after he’s been sacked 10 times how much he appreciates his linemen. But in an individual sport? I’m not holding my breath.
The union won’t happen. The best way to stop a union from happening is to keep the workers super happy with bonuses and benefits (Honda).
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
The Honda analogy is more relevant to MMA because they rely on semi-skilled and skilled workers to stay in business.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Retail work shouldn’t be unionized. It’s a brainless, easily replacable job.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The best way to keep a union from happening is don’t employ your workers. Keep them isolated as independent contractors. Keep everyone in the entrepreneurial contractor mindset rather than the fraternal employee mindset. Make your workers think of each other as the competition rather than brothers-in-arms.
I don’t know what they make as a proportion of the gross margin of Zuffa’s operations because Zuffa is a private company and there are all of these “undisclosed bonuses” flying around.
I can say for certain that the pay is better than it was 5 years ago, and in 5 years from now, the pay will be even better.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
You’re right, because of Zuffa pay is up and will continue to rise in the foreseeable future. But what is the fair amount? And what point is Zuffa taking too much of the pie and the fighters, no matter how big their crumbs, are not getting enough?I don’t know, I’m just musing about it.
The fact that everyone who has paid more than Zuffa is no longer promoting fights should help you answer that question.
But is that because of pay or because they didn’t have the revenue that Zuffa had to make it work? Supposedly Affliction’s payout was based on only 350,000 PPV buys. If they had hit that they would have broken even.
And if they would have hit 7 million ppv buys they would have made a ton of money.
They made bad projections, so they paid too much.
Yes, but what would those card have done with the UFC logo on it? How many PPV they have sold if everyone thought it was the UFC? It reminds me of an experiment Fox did when they released the animated film “Anastasia”. Before screenings they added the Disney logo, and the ratings by the test audience was through the roof. When they put their Fox logo back on, it got a so-so rating from the audience.
So your giving an example of why the UFC should get the bulk of the credit and the proceeds because it is their name being on the product that makes the most difference in earnings? Is that the point you are trying to make?
by who me on Aug 19, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorta. What I’m saying is two things:
1) People are watching the UFC not MMA. It doesn’t matter the card you put together, people aren’t going to watch it unless it’s the UFC (at least so far. I have hope for Strikeforce).
2) If Affliction can pay those large wages and break even at 350,000 ppv why is no one asking why UFC wages aren’t as large?
UFC wages are as large for the top fighters, the one’s who drive the PPV buys.
Why do people think Randy came back? Why did Randy leave?
Both those questions have the same answer.
What’s interesting to me is how much the economics of mma is more like the movie business then the league sports. Pay in Hollywood is based on how many butts you get into a seat, but in sport it’s based on performance (At least projected performance in the case of rookies). Barry Bonds was not loved, but made as much as anyone.
Now endorsements, I know, are a whole different thing.
Again, that’s wrong.
Why does the 300th best baseball player get paid more than the best lacrosse player?
because baseball puts more asses in the seats.
When MMA gets to the level that “mma” or “ufc” puts enough asses in the seats to pay entirely based on performance, they will. But when Rich Franklin sells more than Anderson Silva, he’s going to get paid more, it doesn’t matter how many times Anderson knees him into oblivion.
Luke Walton is a much more popular player than Ron Artest in LA and he’s not making as much. Why? He’s not as good. Does he make more in local endorsements? I’m sure he does.
again, comparing to one of the big team sports is a stupid comparison.
They make enough money to pay based solely on performance, the UFC does not.
There are guys even in team sports who make more money than their skills merit because they draw well.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Aug 19, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s still based on how many butts are put in seats in every sport, in the big team sports the main reason they concentrate on performance is that winning teams draw bigger crowds. In professional sports the end goal is always to make money.
Of course that also works in MMA, fighters who win draw more fans and thus make more money and anyone wearing a belt naturally draws more attention. It’s all interrelated.
That’s a 100% true. And since there motivation is to win they compensate the better players based on performance. I was just comparing how the fighter’s pay seems more like a Hollywood movie then the other major league sports.
When was the last time a player in the NFL or NBA got a cut of the gate?
1. It does matter what card you put together, if it didn’t then every single card would sell the exact same number of PPV buys. Of course the UFC doesn’t hold the US viewership records for the sport, crappy ass dead EliteXC does, so it’s obvious that a lot more goes into this stuff.
2. Do we actually know if that was their break even point or was that just another one of the many stories going around? Affliction’s problem wasn’t just that they paid too much it’s who they were paying for. They were paying top dollar for fighters who were either unproven as US draws or had already been shown not to be good draws. They also did a real crappy job with their advertising.
For that matter how do we know that the UFC wages aren’t as large or larger? The athletic commission payout reports are pretty worthless and we do know that fighters with PPV percentages make millions off events (and it’s not completely uncommon to have more than one fighter with a PPV cut on a event).
Then there is also the point that they aren’t in this to break even they are into it to grow a company, Zuffa doesn’t just sit on the money they are constantly reinvesting and growing their product. That puts them in a very different situation and business plan than a group like Affliction MMA. Zuffa’s expenses are way beyond just those associated with any individual event.
by who me on Aug 19, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
EliteXC holds the record only because it was on network tv. I will guarantee right now Strikeforce will break that record next year.
But the Zuffa expenses are just like the fighters pay – behind the scenes deals so we can’t know how much or how little there is.
We do know that things like expanding overseas are very expensive over a long time frame though, we don’t know what their expenses are but we do know that they reinvest more money into growing the industry than anyone else does too, their operating cost aren’t just limited to the expenses of individual events.
We don’t know the revenue numbers so we can’t tell, but we do know that the revenue numbers are nowhere near wiat the big sports making.
Also, the UFC has expenses that the other sports don’t, so even if we knew the revenue numbers, a straight salaries/revenue ratio wouldn’t really be a fair way to compare things.
I'm just curious
what kind of expenses are you talking about?
Not even close
The NFL, NBA and MLB have unions and Collective Bargaining Agreements that pay the athletes between 40 and 60% of the Total revenue.
The UFC is probably closer to 10-15% to the fighters.
Not a great model if you are trying to attract top level athletes to your sport. That is why they want to kill the competition. To keep costs down.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Eh
“If the UFC wants to they can make anyone a contender. If they don’t like you and you’re not charismatic, they can put you on an undercard.”
And what’s wrong with that? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the top 10 P4P rankings all happen to be very charismatic and/or exciting fighters. Silva, Fedor, St. Pierre, Machida, Torres, Brown…boom.
Also, I don’t know if you noticed this but most fighters fighting in other US promotions (ie. Strikeforce, WEC) make less money than most fighters in the UFC. Hell, no name undercard fighters in the UFC routinely make thousands more than no name undercard BOXERS.
1. Why do you assume they will automatically be lower? No one can pay even close to what the UFC pays currently yet fighter pay continues to rise at a constant level. Also if we get to a situation where the UFC is the only serious organization out there is when you get to the point where the fighter’s union (that people keep whining about) would finally become feasible to come into existence. There are other checks and balances out there besides competing organizations, including ones that don’t cause the same problems this kind of competition does. Yes this could potentially become a problem but it’s a lot more complicated of a situation than people make it out to be.
2. Um how would competing organizations change that? Having multiple belts and multiple organizations pushing different fighters doesn’t clear up the rankings situation it makes it even more of a mess. Heck the best way to determine fighter rankings is to have the best fight the best and that is one of the biggest drawbacks from having multiple organizations. Your cause and effect here aren’t related and your playoff example doesn’t work at all because if there wasn’t a monopoly in those sports then there would be no true playoffs there either. The issue of monopolies and fighter rankings really aren’t related.
You might be right, multiple orgs might limit the growth of the sport. And right now pay seems to be shooting up with the UFC moving into monopoly territory. But I don’t think one org will increase pay as dramatically as it’s profits will be. And I am also not holding out any hope for a fighters’ union. Unlike team sports, the lesser tier athletes do not have enough pull to force any concessions.
It’s a very complicated issue that people seem to want to try and boil down to how coal companies worked 50+ years ago. I’m just waiting for Fedor to break out singing 16 tons at press conference. To be honest I’m particularly on one side or the other (I do enjoy Strikeforce’s product) I’m just pointing out things that people seem to want to overlook in this discussion.
Why should percentages be the issue?
Bottom line is, fighters would be making more money than they are now, and it would certainly be in the UFC’s best interests to ensure that all fighters on their roster can afford to train full time. Maximising the quality of the product etc.
Who cares if they are paid a consistent % of UFC revenue? Are employees of many businesses paid a consistent % of revenue? As long as it is enough to make a living fighting.
Also, I don’t see how having more than one org is going to ensure salaries are held at a consistent % of revenue either.
A point to consider with regard to the union is how many of the lower tier fighters train with the top tier ones. Members of the same team in a sense. If all the fight camps banded together a union is very plausible (in a UFC monopoly). Not participating in training camps could be analogous to QB’s getting sacked when their offensive line takes an easy day at the office…
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Aug 20, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Stop pointing out playoffs in other sports.
What if the Cowboys and the Giants are the best 2 teams in football.
Will they ever get to play in the Super Bowl? No. Why? Because they have to be in the same division so they can play each other twice a year because those games get great ratings.
Stop acting like the playoffs in other sports are perfect examples of competion. Every sport makes tons and tons of decisions based on the almighty dollar, the UFC is not alone in that regard, it’s just more obvious because they’re newer and it’s more obvious because it’s an individual sport.
I was just using the playoffs as an example because it’s a fairly transparent way in which a champ is crowned. But you’re right it doesn’t correspond 100% to an individual sport. My point was that there is no outside body determining the rankings of fighters, so there is no clear cut way to ascertain who should get title shots.
A regimented contendor system would get in the way of fights that fans want to see.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
by Ubernoober on Aug 19, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know but as a true sport shouldn’t it be focused more on seeing who the best is, instead of who the fans want to see. I know everyone wanted to see Cleveland or the Celtics vs, the Lakers, but we got Orlando. Not what was demanded, but should a fighter like Lyoto have to wait until finally there is no other challengers left before he gets a shot?
Alternate reality: Rampage decides to fight Rashad, so Lyoto doesn’t get a shot right away. After what Anderson did to Forrest, would the fans have demanded that the Spider jump ahead of him? How much longer would have Lyoto had to wait?
i would have no problem with Rampage Jackson, former champion who lost his belt in a close decision, coming off 2 victories getting a title shot before Lyoto Machida, who while undefeated, did not have a great resume in the UFC at that time.
by Phildo on Aug 19, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wouldn’t that be solved by having an MMA media poll?
by Screwface on Aug 20, 2009 12:01 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
“Solved” in much the same way the BCS “solves” the problem of crowning a champion.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Aug 20, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions
This.
And especially in the mma media.
Some sites are OK, but there’s a large portion of the mma media that doesn’t exactly get along with Zuffa. There’s also a bunch that are just incompetent, especially when it comes to matchmaking and the business side. Handing over matchmaking responsibilities to them would be one of the dumbest things Zuffa could do.
Sometimes you just have to jump at the money.
The only thing that would have happened to Lyoto in the meantime is that he’d have won another high profile fight, probably against Shogun.
Not a bad deal for Lyoto.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
Fun fact
The only people in MMA who have higher Google trends spikes than Machida after beating Evans are Lesnar and Kimbo.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Lyoto is the Karate Kid.
Keep firing Assholes!
Romans, be it your duty to rule the nations with imperial sway … to impose the rule of peace, to spare the humbled and crush the proud.
Was having this discussion with blackout, Lyoto IS the main character of a martial arts movie.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
did outside bodies draw up the divisions or design the playoffs in other sports?
The only one that does is college football, and that is probably the most retarded system of all.
The closest thing to true competition are sports like tennis, golf, bowling, etc where there are pretty much open tournaments every week. Those would be nice, but it’s not practical in mma due to the physical toll each fight takes.
Even then, seedings can be manipulated to ensure certain players are not able to play until certain times.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Aug 20, 2009 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions
You forget about competition.
If the UFC keeps purses lower, that lowers the barrier to entry for other promotions.
This is just like how companies in strong economies need to give their employees raises or the promise of bonuses to prevent them from leaving for better offers.
If the UFC drops the purses too low, competitors will appear.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
by Llewdor on Aug 19, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Never thought I'd say this
I’ve gone from PRIDE/Fedor fanatic to just being sick of his face.
by judonerd on Aug 19, 2009 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Lets say Strikeforce eventually goes out of business and UFC finally gets to be the only major promotion left in the US. Huzzah, am I right? Well, maybe…if Dana could get teammates to fight each other. I see no point whatsoever in Lil Nog going to UFC if he won’t fight Anderson or Machida. I see no point in Anderson going up in weight to “challenge himself” if he’s never going to really go for the belt just because Machida has it.
I dunno, there should be something in the contracts that state they have to fight teammates if it comes down to it. Like in the Jardine and Evans talks a while ago. If Jardine would have KO’d Rampage then he would have HAD to have fought Evans even though they say no. This is my only beef. Personally I would LOVE for UFC to be the only major promotion. Add the WEC weight classes and a 195lb title as well and I’m good to go. :)
I can hear Kenny saying “I WANT MIKE BROWNS BELT!!!”, now that he’s basically gonna be a gatekeeper at 155.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Eh?
What’s the point of signing good fighters who put on good fights, even if they’re friends with the champion?
I assume you don’t need me to answer that one for you.
(Love your sig quote, never heard that one before, haha!)
I know what you’re saying but eventually…
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 19, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
A UFC monopoly may be great for MMA’s popularity. But is is great for the sport? Is it great to one very opaque organization dictate everything? And will it be great for the fighter. knowing they are only making a fraction of the revenue?
I think it would be great if that one org is UFC with Dana and the Ferttitas. I think eventually they would compensate the huge megastars once their profits go even crazier because of it. I can see a fighter like GSP making 4-5 mill per fight and the n00b base pay being 30k and up. Bonuses at a constant 100k for every event not just UFC 100.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 19, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if they don’t have to. And maybe they will start paying they a lot more, but is it fair to pay someone a million when you make a hundred million of them. If we are saying the UFC is the NFL or MLB then the fair compensation to the fighters would be roughly 50% the revenue. If we are conservative then UFC 100 made the UFC about $60 mil. What was the payout? Even throwing in $6 mil in PPV bonuses it wouldn’t have hit $10 mil. A little low.
The UFC gets maybe half of the money per PPV buy. They have expenses, venue, advertising, personnel etc. Fighter payroll is only a part of that.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I assumed they got the same as boxing, which for Mayweather-De La Hoya was 2/3. Also, the NFL and NBA also have expenses, but both of their pay is based on revenue. And in the NBA’s case it is closer to 60%.
The other leagues have way less expenses than the UFC.
They don’t have to produce their tv shows, most teams own the arenas, so there’s one less thing to worry about. The insurance they pay is lower because the sports are perceived as less dangerous, they have to spend less on lobbying/legal fees the government because the sports are legal.
The UFC is less than 20 years old. To expect it to pay out the same percentage of revenues as leagues that have been around for 50 to over 100 years is silly, especially when those leagues treated the players much worse than the UFC has when they were in their beginning stages (even until very recently, relatively speaking).
Heck, a lot of teams get state dollars to fund their new stadiums. Which to me should be illegal, but that is a discussion for another time.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 19, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The big sports leagues have very complicated systems of profit sharing and product marketing that allows them to pay what they do. They are an example of how things can work once you get established at the top not what it cost to get to that point. All those leagues have long histories of athletes being way underpaid and it to generations for them to grow to the level and structure they are currently at.
Hmmm. it’s very strange question you asked, because it’s like asking if the popularity will do any good to the sport and for the good of the fighters. And in the last line you suggest that they should make all of the money?
And on the other hand – how do you know how much they are REALLY doing. Because as far as I’m concerned they make much more than official numbers.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 19, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know what they make. I’m trying to make educated guesses based on what’s been published. Truth I’m talking out of my ass.
Boxing has about 70 major championships in 14 weight classes;
Como what? Damn, no wonder Boxing is tanking. That is ridonkulous!
They are about to have 71 with the new WBC “Diamond” Catchweight Superfight Title.
*rolls eyes
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
m-1
If someone looks carefuly at what M-1 is doing, and what their demands are, and how they try to trick their fithers imo – then you’ll have de-ja-vu. It’s Don King in form of russian mobsters – nothing more. There is no way in the world promotion like M-1 will do any good to anything exept for their pockets. Dana is a bit crazy and megalomaniac, but he makes good fights happen. And the point about “exciting” fighers being treated better then better but a bit boring….. It’s actually what makes it different than boxing. In boxing it don’t work exept really very rare exeptions. If you look at the top of heavyweight division – and all these eastern block boring to death guys, that make million of dollars, you’ll see the difference. And thats boxing, where one lost fight will make you out of the picture, no matter how exciting you are, because it’s about ranks. In UFC if you lose in good style – you’ll get your chances. In boxing happens just for the best known and very top guys like RJJ, Cotto and couple others. And this is boxing were you get all this nonsense fights when champs and top contenders are fighting tomato cans. No thanks – I wish russians will quickly be out of business, for the good of everything including my wellbeing:)
by UniversalSoul on Aug 19, 2009 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is why the UFC has a champions clause
The subject of the article is exactly why the UFC signs its promising fighters to “6” fight contracts and never lets a fighter fight for the championship on their last fight. Champions by and large get the most attention as well which is why the infamous “champions clause” is part of the UFC’s contract.
If a fighter wants the UFC hype machine, the PPV buy bonuses, and all of the sponsorships that come with being a UFC champ they simply have to play ball.
Sure some could go the way of Andrei Arlovski and collect a few nice fat seven figure paydays but then what? If you lose and lose badly like Arlovski you’ll find yourself fighting for relative peanuts.
Fedor and M-1’s co-promotion requirement will not ruin MMA because “co-promotion” is not a viable business model… If it was Tito Ortiz would have done it – GSP would have done it – Lesnar would have done it, etc…
Fedor can sell 250k ppv’s with his “co-promotion” business model and they would still make less money than GSP, TITO, Lesnar, etc…
This is how the UFC pay structure is set up… and as the fans increase the pay structure will increase accordingly to reflect the “phantom scenario”… today its 250k buys – tommorow it will be 400k, 500k, etc…
Strikeforce’s ratings should not be taken lightly… the fight has officially been taken to the second round. This fight wont end until theres a winner and theres a loser.
Zuffa can raise ppv prices from 44.95 to 49.95 and it will make zero impact to number of buys… but guess what? That’s more than 30 mil to the bottom line per annum. This simple move alone can bankroll the entire battle plan.
The kill orders are in place…
by mmalogic on Aug 20, 2009 8:33 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
disagree whole heartedly on your last statement
uffa can raise ppv prices from 44.95 to 49.95 and it will make zero impact to number of buys
this will hurt the UFC’s new fan base. the difference between $45 & $50 is a big step mentally. alot of the new fans don’t necessarily have a big group of friends to watch UFC with and incur most to all of the cost themselves.
hardcore fans wont be affected, probably half of the hardcores steal the PPV anyway, but for the rest of us who actually support the sport, it gets a little annoying in a down economy that the UFC would raise its prices.
the UFC PPV price and merchandise price is becoming elitist. i would gladly buy event posters, but it’s almost impossible, and the rest of the items are untouchable as far as price goes. that skeletal metal is bull shit. its a $15 peice of medical equipment sold for $75…. come on.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
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