Was Gina Carano vs. Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos a Bad Stoppage?
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
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Interestingly enough, there are some fans out there that truly believe that the stoppage of the main event women's bout between Gina Carano and Cristiane "Cyborg" Santos was questionable due to the fact that Josh Rosenthal stopped the bout with only one second left in the first round. A lot of fans feel that Gina should have been given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to continue. Meltzer sums it up:
Santos took over late in the round and with the clock ticking down, she was pounding on Carano. In a somewhat controversial decision, referee Josh Rosenthal stopped the match with less than a tick left in the round, and until Santos celebrated by jumping on the top of the cage, much of the crowd thought it was the end of the round as opposed to the end of the fight.The stoppage would not have been controversial if there were 20 seconds left in the fight. Clearly, a stoppage based on the pounding Carano had taken, under most circumstances, wouldn’t have even been an issue. The only issue is that there was one second left in the round, and at that point perhaps Carano should have at least been given the opportunity to use her one-minute rest period before the start of the second round.
Here's the problem, and I have a feeling that most fans feel exactly the same way. Gina was not only hurt badly from Cyborg's barrage of punches, but she was actually in the fetal position with Cyborg not exactly locked in a dominant position when you look back at the video. Cyborg did have somewhat of a standing mount on Carano, but as apparent from video of the fight -- Carano made no attempt to even move into a better position. If Carano was in the fight still, it wasn't going to be a huge problem for her to buck her hips, turn her legs, and start kicking her way out of danger from her back. Instead, Carano turtled and waited for the stoppage.
There are many fights that have occured this year that definitely warrant some criticism, but the stoppage on Saturday night was a good call by Josh Rosenthal. Not only was Carano not putting up any type of fight, but she wasn't really being held down in a top controlling position to stop her from moving. She quit because she was overwhelmed.
Ref cam image after the jump. See for yourself.
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Um ... no
He should have stopped it 5 seconds earlier. If anything, it was late. And look at Carano’s face in the GIF right after the stoppage … she doesn’t want any more.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Agreed the fight would have been stopped five seconds sooner had it been Cyborg getting pounded by Gina. She got the company showpiece benefit of the doubt.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
if gina would have jumped up and complained right when he stopped then maybe, but she wanted out. gina was always SO much bigger than her previous opponents, that she could just bully them around, as was cyborg. this fight settled who could take getting hit back just as hard and was just as strong. that was cyborg.
i watched the fight for the 1st time yesterday. Gina made some bone-headed mistakes. Like having mount (or knee on belly) and then just standing up….. That’s how you lose fights…mistakes, and that was a big one.
Stoppage was just fine. She laid there for half a minute afterward.
Gina also didn’t know how to execute a basic clinch game or take down, she’d lean back every time she got inside instead of pulling Cyborg in and pushing her hips forward.
I don’t know, I wasn’t overly impressed with this fight.
by Patrick Tenney on Aug 17, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that was her biggest mistake. Full mount, and she didn’t move to get hooks or anything. She was given a gift there, and decided to stand back up? Made ZERO sense to me.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think round time should have anything to do with determining if a stoppage was good or not. Rosenthal stopped the fight at the proper time, regardless of how many seconds were left in the round.
by Andy R on Aug 17, 2009 10:18 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
/\ THIS
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 17, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Definitely.
The last thing we want is for Ref’s to be checking the clock while trying to make a decision about possibly stopping a fight.
I doubt it would have made a huge amount of difference, but
one issue I think that Gina had was a huge amount of ring rust compared to Cyborg.
Interestingly enough, there are some fans out there that truly believe that the stoppage of the main event women’s bout between Gina Carano and Cristiane “Cyborg” Santos was questionable due to the fact that Josh Rosenthal stopped the bout with only one second left in the first round. A lot of fans feel that Gina should have been given the benefit of the doubt and allowed to continue.
Apparently not many…This is one of the most onesided polls I’ve ever seen.
Usually from a questionable stoppage the figther complains…not hear. I highly doubt Carano would have answered the bell for the 2nd if she’d taken on more shot..
Yeah, but this is the BE community. Definitely not a stupid bunch. I was referring to other communities I’ve skimmed over.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
True
I don’t browse the Sherdog forums for my own health…and the health of my computer.
I guess in a lot of ways the message boards are all we got, but at the same time I think they are a bad indication of what even the casual fan hears. Even the crowd didn’t seem to displeased with that stoppage. I knowin some ways we are message board guys (although I like to think we’ve been forced here because of a lack of intelligent discussion), but Colin Cowherd on ESPN radio (a guy who for years have been saying MMA should be covered) always kinda talks about how the message boards are filled with loons. I mean do we really need to dignify the crazies?
I’m not even talking about forums. I haven’t been on the Sherdog forums ever with the exception of back when Breen posted vid links. I haven’t visited MMAJunkie in roughly 2-3 years because their moderation is terrible.
I suppose I pointed this out for the fact that there are actually fans out there that believed it was a bad stoppage, plain and simple.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Over 90% of the people so far say no. For online survey’s…. That’s basically a slam dunk.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 17, 2009 10:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I was shooting for 99%, I'm pissed!
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
i'd like to point out
that while you and many other pundits predicted the carano outpointing cyborg, i made the “bold” (sarcasm) prediction that cyborg would overwhelm gina in the first… despite being a “noob” in your eyes.
battle 1 to amadeus, I’m on to you Roling.
Of course this wasn’t an early stoppage though, the picture on BE’s main page yesterday told all, Carano had too much ring rust, she has the talent to stop cyborg though given some cage time first
by Austin Martin on Aug 17, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
What did you see from Gina that makes you think she could stop cyborg? Imo, she can’t handle the aggressive fighters (she just covers up and turns her back), she can’t handle 5 minute rounds (I wondered why she spoke out against them, when almost all other female fighters are for them), she has been spoon fed opponents to this point (as she should have been, she is still very young in her mma career). I like Gina, but I see this as a Franklin/Silva scenario, which will never result in a different outcome.
I agree ring rust is commonly a factor, but I don’t see it as much of one here.
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If you read what couture said about her striking
her timing was definately off and she would just move to block punches instead of firing back… Gina is definately a worthy striking opponent for Cyborg, but she wasn’t aggressive enough.. It was obvious she had mentally defeated herself, which i think is a sign of ring rust.
despite what anyone says, Gina had control of the fight at certain points, and she was not completely dominated until the last minute and a half, she was just too tentative
by Austin Martin on Aug 17, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Man, I see your point and it is why I picked Carano, but you look at that fight and Cyborg’s striking was crisper, harder and way more effective. Gina has a very bad habit of just covering up turning away from her opponent. She may be able to get away with that against less dangerous fighters or with shorter rounds to “save” her, but I think she is just way out of her league here. She may be a very good, almost great fighter, but I see her having no more than a one in ten chance of beating Cyborg.
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i'd agree that cyborg would win 9/10 times
But i think it’s because cyborg is actually a “fighter,” who definately trained cardio for this fight, and who was the agressor. I think we’d certainly see a different first round if Carano could crack cyborg once or twice, but ultimately that one 5 minute round showed that Carano really has absolutely no conditioning. She MAY’VE been able to go one more round, and even thats a stretch
by Austin Martin on Aug 17, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL, who cares who I picked.
I picked every underdog on the card almost. I picked Carano because I truly thought she could outlast the onslaught. I was obviously wrong like many other people were. I picked Ishida because I like Japanese fighters, and I picked Sobral just so I could complete a parlay of massively epic proportions. I didn’t really think they were great picks, nor did I think Taylor was a lock by any means. This was just one of those events that I thought picking the upset bids would make it a bit more exciting to watch… and it did just that.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
i guess i don't really care
i’m just having another groundhog day monday at work and i want a cookie, a trophy, or a pat on the back. LOL.
by Austin Martin on Aug 17, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Let's share that cookie.
Actually no, you can have it all by yourself. I was 90% sure cyborg would beat her to a pulp very early, but instead on going with this bet, I put 200 on JT MONEY…
You don't look like a Tanaka.
thats a hard cookie to swallow
He’s a huge dude and fought a little less than a month ago, more people should’ve reported about how much two 20+ lb cuts in the span of a couple weeks would’ve hurt him… especially since he relies on bully wrestling
I think this did prove that Hieron has a significant edge over Diaz in wrestling… i hope nick works to correct this because i want him to be dominant in the SF WW class and eventually go to the UFC to challenge GSP
by Austin Martin on Aug 17, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure 3% is mistakes
Ohh I clicked the wrong button.
Great stoppage...
Gina definately wasn’t trying to improve position or fight back. I doubt Josh knew there was one second left anyways. He knew the round was comin to an end, but put Gina’s saftey first rather than worry about the clock. Maybe some other referees should take notes.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Aug 17, 2009 10:37 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I understand his point, but...
if the fight wasn’t stopped at 4:59, it would have been stopped between rounds anyway. Gina was beyond done, and just wanted to go home.
by mythbuster on Aug 17, 2009 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
stoppage
I remember once hearing a boxing ref saying that the time left should have no bearing on a stoppage. The ref is RIGHT THERE and if he feels the fight should be stopped, then he stops it. He has to make a split second decision, whether to give the downed fighter a full chance or to save him/her from permanent damage. Even though its annoying, I’d rather see a premature stoppage than see someone permanently damaged. But this stoppage was NOT premature, Gina was simply outfought and there was nothing to indicate it would have been any different next round.
Isn't there a 10 second bell
So the ref would know its pretty close to the end of the round.
see my response below...
there is a 10 second clapper (or buzzer depending on the state/setup) but it is to notify the cornermen to get ready to get in the cage and handle the fighter as well as letting the ref know to get in position to separate fighters at the end of the round…but it isn’t supposed to change his behavior.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 17, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Good Stop
I finally saw the footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW6aLvF0vRc
Wow – Carano looks wayyyy overmatched. I’m sad to see that.
Definitely a good stoppage. It almost could have been stopped with a little under 2 minutes left. Santos was pounding her and Carano was turtling then. Hell, Carano looked beat a minute into the fight.
I wonder if she got rocked in those early flurries. If not then she did a terrible job of conditioning prep for the fight or she doesn’t have the psychological makeup to be a champ. Just a very poor performance overall. She “gave up” well before the stoppage.
Reminds me of Anderson and Forrest. Love Forrest and Gina, but they didn’t belong in the same cage as their opponents. I hope they can find some competition to push Santos – gonna be tough.
THanks for the link
It allowed me to see, at the 1:01 mark, “Now Cyborg get’s her back and goes for the guillotine!”.
I do miss Rogan and Goldie sometimes.
Rounds are 5 minutes. If rounds were 4:59, it would be a different story. Gina was out of this fight early, didn’t have the 3 minute rounds to keep her from getting finished and was completely outclassed in the cage.
I’m sorry, and this is in no way bashing, but Gina was out struck, out cardio’d, out game planned and thoroughly beaten. Cyborg showed what women’s mma should be and that they deserve to have 5 minute rounds just like the guys. Gina showed that she is not on that level yet.
The stoppage was spot on and I would question one’s motivation or intelligence in thinking otherwise. Either you don’t understand the game well, or you just want to see the train wreck continue.
www.knees2thehead.com
Check it out!!
Gina Quit
Stopping a fight when someone quits is fine, no matter how long is left on the clock.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Aug 17, 2009 11:05 AM EDT reply actions
i agree
when someone is turtling up and still taking punishment, instead or moving around and trying to improve position, they’re finished.
I really don’t see what the argument is though, even Carano didn’t think it was a bad stoppage… If she complained, I’d see at least grounds for debate, but she didnt complain, in fact after the stoppage she was still laying on the mat and medical personell had to help her… if that doesnt warrant a stoppage what does?
by Austin Martin on Aug 17, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Turtling up and waiting for the bell is not intelligently defending. As to whether the one extra second would have really mattered… probably not.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Aug 17, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions
every second of a fight is supposed to be treated exactly the same by the ref and judges. A punch landing with 2 minutes left should count the same as that same punch with 2 seconds left for the judges and a stoppage with 2 minutes left should be handled the same as 2 seconds left by the ref. It would be a BAD JOB OF REFFING if he let her go. The 10 second clapper is there to let the ref know to get into position to separate the fighters at the end of the round, not to let them know they should change how they’re handling the fight.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 17, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions
Definitely a good stoppage
I would have liked to have seen if Cyborg could have kept up that pace through the 2nd round, but that probably would have resulted in Gina being in a hospital.
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Not only was this a good stoppage, it was a great stoppage. Some refs would have thought to let it go past the bell and give Gina the chance to rest and see what happens. Rosenthal waited just long enough, right after Gina curled up and Cyborg started throwing power shots, he knew it was enough. The worst thing that could have happened was right as the bell sounded Cyborg made Gina look like Babalu and flattened her with GnP…that just wouldn’t look good at all, especially when it could have been stopped.
Almost 10% say bad stoppage, but if Rosenthal let it go and Gina quit in between rounds, or went on to get pummeled even worse…there would be a lynching party after him right now. The same 90% saying good stoppage, would be pissed that he threw a fighter’s safety to the wind and just let it go on.
Bravo Josh, Bravo.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 17, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions
Hmmm...
What if it was the last second of the last round? I would like to think that I would say it doesn’t matter, but a larger part of me would want for the ref to let the round end than it would here.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
All the cool kids win at 4:59
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 17, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
It seemed like to me Gina quit.
She kept making mistakes like giving up mount to stand up, etc. and she was being destroyed on the feet. I don’t know exactly how many of Cyborg’s punches were getting through, but Gina looked like she was being overwhelmed. Part of me wanted the ref to let it go to the end of the round, but really, she made no attempt to get out of the situation. One second or thirty, doesn’t really matter, cause I think she was done at that point.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 17, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That spasm after getting hit between her arms is eerie.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 17, 2009 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That was so nasty. I can hardly watch women's mma because of stuff like that.
I can’t watch a pretty girl’s face get smashed in and her spirit broken like that. She really wanted that fight to be over, and that punch that connected looked like it destroyed her whole world.
Kid Nate
But to be fair, I had shitty wording in the question to begin with….
But let him have it anyways…. NATE IS WHINING!
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 17, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Short answer – No.
Long answer – Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
by brad23 on Aug 17, 2009 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Is that a Zero Punctuation reference?
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 24, 2009 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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