Is female MMA bad MMA?
by thetakeover on Aug 16, 2009 2:14 PM EDT
Email
Print
46-6P1Y7665 copy (via showtime_sports)
It is not a polite question, and it is one sure to draw cries of chauvinism, but after last night's Carano vs. Cyborg fight, I have to ask: Is female MMA bad MMA?
Consider:
In a fight for a championship belt, Cyborg TWICE pulled her opponent into FULL MOUNT (the worst possible position) -- something I have seldom (ever?) seen even in a men's pre-card match. This is pretty much the WORST THING YOU CAN DO. You have taken an offensively advantageous position--double underhooks--and used it to transition to a completely one-sided position for your opponent that is often a fight ender.
The only reason that in this case, it wasn't a fight ender (TWICE) is that her opponent, Gina Carano, DID NOT KNOW HOW TO KEEP THE FULL MOUNT POSITION. In fact, in one case, she GAVE UP THE FULL MOUNT BY STANDING UP. This is the mirror image of Cyborg's foolishness: Carano has gone from a highly dominant, fight-ending position into a neutral position which had so far proven to be to Cyborg's advantage!
This would be like watching a WNBA game where the players repeatedly threw the ball into the wrong basket, and professed not to know what a free throw was. You could use this as a Judo Chop clinic on what not to do.
What I saw last night looked like male mixed martial arts circa UFC 8. I am left to the conclusion that Carano and Cyborg are not particularly good martial artists by gender-neutral standards.
Yes, Mega Magu will be fun to watch against Cyborg and Gina. But then what? Is there some trove of highly talented female MMA artists that can arrive to give the sport legitimacy? At this point, the fanbase is smart enough from watching UFC that they can see the flaws in the game that were on abundant display last night.
If female MMA shrinks after last night, it may not be because Gina lost so much as the fact that neither her nor her opponent looked very good in the fight.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
67 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
We have seen someone pull mount before. I believe it was in TUF awhile ago. Still, you are correct when you say how bad that fight was. Everyone I’ve talked to about the fight said they were amazed at how sloppy it was to be a headliner and a title fight.
I think if you saw someone do it in TUF that just goes to reinforce his point.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
Exactly. That stuff shouldn’t be happening at the lower levels, forget title fights.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I've seen people pull guard ...
but pull full mount? There is no smart reason to put your opponent in the position to punch you in the face while limiting your own offensive capabilities to escape sweeps and week up-punches.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
I think you're over reacting about the pulling mount thing a bit much
I haven’t watched the fight but that happens a lot when someone botches a throw, especially when the other person counters with a body crush (see fedor vs hong man choi). It’s the same thing as when someone fucks up a judo throw and gets their back taken. Being a BJJ purple belt, I think Santos understands that mount is a bad position to be in. She just made a mistake.
As far as carano standing up from mount, I don’t know why that would ever happen. the play by play for this fight was confusing the hell out of me haha
by phantasma475 on Aug 16, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
botched throws
Yes, they were botched throws. I didn’t mean she was literally pulling mount intentionally. But what gets me is 1) clearly, her technique on the throw is awful 2) even after it didn’t work, she tried it again and got the same result.
This is sloppy MMA. It is bad MMA. And if this is the future of the nascent sport of female MMA, it is not a bright one.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
I doubt that’s exactly what she intended to do. Santos tends to bully opponents and attempt to throw them around rather than work for more proper take-downs. She has had far more success at this against smaller women, and it definitely stands out as a weakness in her game.
Cheick Kongo often tries to get off his back by essentially just pushing his opponents off of him rather than work for more proper scrambles and escapes. He’s a strong guy and has had some success with this, but against superior wrestlers it has been more impressive than it has been effective, and it stands out as a weakness in his game. Is Kongo bad for MMA?
I know there is a real difference between the stature of Kongo and Santos, both in terms of their overall visibility and their respective places in their divisions. Nonetheless, I hope this (admittedly flawed and limited) comparison sheds some light on how odd this point of view seems to this particular observer of MMA.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
I’ve seen better takedown skills from mediocre 16 year old high school wrestlers.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Are ill-informed MMA fans bad MMA fans?
Yes, Mega Magu will be fun to watch against Cyborg and Gina.
Seriously.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
The Mega Magu thing was a joke. I know they are in different weight classes (not that it has stopped Gina and Cyborg before).
But she is an example of someone whose strong technique could add some shine to women’s MMA if it got a larger audience. What we saw last night was bad technique.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Yes, the fight was sloppy. So was Brett Rogers vs. Abongo Humphrey, and Mike Whitehead vs. Kevin Randleman. The reason that they were fighting for the belt was due to the reality that the 145-pound division has not been established yet, and these are the two best-known female fighters in the US. Both women are essentially prospects, but to make he fight worthy of headlining, a title was thrown into the mix.
Female MMA, right now, needs depth, and it needs time to develop. In the meanwhile, there will be a less technical displays. The challenge for Strikeforce is to have enough female fights that one bad fight doesn’t completely dominate fans’ perceptions of what female MMA is.
by madiq on Aug 16, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I agree,
The thing is, it has really only been a very recent development for mens mixed martial arts to have deep divisions and clear title hierarchy. People fighting out of weight-classes and otherwise questionable matchmaking was simply de rigueur until a certain threshold of talented guys of various sizes developed. (In fact, one can still see this in action today as the formalization of the lightest weight classes has sorted out just who is who and allowed some guys to fight at their preferred weights.)
There is a real question, however, of whether female MMA will ever become deep enough to match the “matured” state of mens MMA (I put this in quotes because the process of establishing the weight classes is ongoing) . It might very well not, but I don’t think that makes it “Bad” MMA, anymore than I thought earlier stages of men’s MMA was “Bad.”
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
This
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Aug 16, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Female MMA isn't bad for MMA...
It just wont get the kind of support & following that they’re trying to push on it… It’s like a novelty item.. Sort of like the XFL or any females sport thus far.. It will generate a mild amount of interest in the beginning & then fall back into obscurity from the mainstream appeal..
Not that this is a bad thing either.. It’s just that the American Mainstream audience has not nor ever will be enticed or turned on by womens sports.. The sad truth is that the level of competition in womens sport does not equate in comparison to mens athletics.. Not because there aren’t great women athletes, but that there aren’t “enough” great women athletes to support it on a wide scale.. They’re not physically capable of doing what men can do while still being overly attractive and physically appealing..
The women that garner attention and appeal or the ones that “look” like hot women.. Regardless of what their capable of doing physically.. Mainstream America is disinterested in what women can do physically because that’s not our perception of what a woman is.. So the only cross over appeal is to have a very good looking woman that can also be competitive in her realm of sport.. but it still falls back on the fact that the majority of the women are not good looking “athletes”.. Combine that with the fact that the dominate women dont usually have an appealing physical appearance & that there isnt enough “good” quality women athlete’s in comparison to men’s standards..
Not that this is a bad thing either.. It’s just that the American Mainstream audience has not nor ever will be enticed or turned on by womens sports.. The sad truth is that the level of competition in womens sport does not equate in comparison to mens athletics.. Not because there aren’t great women athletes, but that there aren’t "enough" great women athletes to support it on a wide scale.. They’re not physically capable of doing what men can do while still being overly attractive and physically appealing..
Maria Sharapova…sigh…
Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 16, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
To clarify
I am not saying female MMA is bad for MMA.
Nor am I against female MMA. I too think the sport needs more time to develop and shows a lot of potential.
But last night was it’s moment in the nationa spotlight, for good or for ill. And I’m saying, watching that fight, it didn’t look like two high level martial artists exchanging techniques in a game of human chess. It looked like a bigger girl beating the crap otu of someone who had no idea how to properly defend herself.
That alone is bad for female MMA. It is a missed opportunity and may end up doing more harm than good.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Sometimes that's simply the way a fight goes
But last night was it’s moment in the nationa spotlight, for good or for ill. And I’m saying, watching that fight, it didn’t look like two high level martial artists exchanging techniques in a game of human chess. It looked like a bigger girl beating the crap otu of someone who had no idea how to properly defend herself.
Change “girl” to man, and you’ve described Lesnar/Mir II pretty aptly. Granted, some people think fight was bad for MMA as well, but I don’t cut them much slack either.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
Except viewers also saw eight other men compete in the 100th iteration on the spectacle. Not so for women’s MMA.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 16, 2009 5:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's the same sport.
If a card had one HW fight and it was sloppy, would you be seriously entertaining the possibility that HW MMA was bad MMA?
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
Most of it is compared to lighter weights. Lack of depth. Arlovski is similar skill set to Marcus Davis except he gets knocked out more.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Well at least "the fanbase is smart enough from watching UFC that they can see the flaws" in the HW game.
Seriously though, this is one line of argument that I am sympathetic to—women’s MMA is rather shallow, and the 145lb “division” is particularly so.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
Yes, I think that the shallowness of the field is most of the problem. I am not saying females are not capable of great MMA—they are, and there are examples to point to. What I am saying is that what is being marketed to us is bad MMA that we would not accept if it was by men, and that itself is sexist.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Not quite. Brock’s positional control techniques were actually pretty impressive. He was able to keep Mir’s hips and head stationary while employing striking from the ground. It would have been a description of the way Lesnar fought in the first fight but look what happened when he did that.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
This
is the truth. I hate when people say the Lesnar/Mir 2 fight had no technique. There’s a whole video out there that was posted on MMAforreal.com showing all the techniques Brock used in that fight to control Mir.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 17, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I think there are a couple of flaws in your analysis.
1) Just because last night’s fight was for a title, it wasn’t necessarily the two most proficient, or best, female fighters in MMA. I think Luke went over the way Strikeforce was marketing this match on MMA Nation a while back.
2) There have been many female fights where the women involved showed significant amounts of technical proficiency (i.e. La Rosa vs. Kobold for the Bodog championship).
I also like to point to La Rosa vs. Baszler as another good battle. Hell, there was a lot of skill displayed in Baszler vs. Kaufman a little while back. Gina has displayed a lot of skill, especially in the striking department. Sure, Cyborg got herself into some bad positions, but she showed some damaging ground and pound and some slick sub attempts.
You can’t use one fight as proof that one gender or promotion lacks skilled combatants. The women are behind the men, but most also don’t train anywhere near full-time. The money just hasn’t been there. I don’t ever see there being as many truly well-rounded female fighters as male. However, the evolution of the sport must simply run its course before we can make any judgments. Certainly, one fight isn’t going to make or break the sport even if it did include Gina Carano losing.
Problem is, casual fans have never seen those fights, and that’s not changing anytime soon
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 16, 2009 5:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I thought the question was: “Is female MMA bad MMA.” It’s not. It’s just a matter of putting the more technical product out as well.
by Cannon Jacques on Aug 16, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
the thing that bothers me most about this fight
is the farce that gina is some kind of technical striker
She is a very technical striker
Her front kicks are fantastic, and she throws straight, compact punches. Her footwork and movement are normally very good, and if you’ve ever seen her hit the pads (i’ve been mere feet away while she and Tompkins work), the hits and kicks like a mule.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Aug 16, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Man this is just brutal, nothing like women’s MMA to drag out the embarrassing comments and posts. Are you sure you don’t want to analogize any more fights to domestic beatings?
I don’t think there is anything wrong with having an honest disagreement and there have been many male fights given harsher analysis. The fact is, last night’s fight exposed some serious weaknesses.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 16, 2009 5:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
You’ve been on a kick all week talking about this fight as a domestic beating. I’m not sure why this is, perhaps it’s issues buried deep in your mind or you truly see women fighting in that light, but it raises significant questions about pretty much everything you post on the subject.
by Michael Rome on Aug 16, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the reason I made that analysis and comparison because that is what many people in America think of when they see a beat-up woman. Not so for men (they think bar fight, or, increasingly, MMA).
So, although I think you are an excellent analysis of MMA, I do not think you’re a particularly good psychologist! Stick to calling the fights instead of psycho-analyzing members of a message board.
As a hardcore fan of MMA, I would love if the sport could flourish. But from what I saw last night, it is not ready for prime time. It looked like, to coin a phrase, “human cockfighting.”
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Also, you may not like my analogy, but you must admit this was a stunningly accurate prognostication of how the fight would go.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
There is very little honest about making statements as ridiculous as the following:
What I saw last night were two ladies who have been pushed really hard by a network (Showtime) and promotions (EliteXC & Strikeforce), that completely lacked true fundamental fighting skills. To praise this and act like it is okay for a pay TV station to put this on just for the ratings is pathetic
You don’t like women’s MMA? Fine, just admit it.
You don’t think women’s MMA will ever be deep enough to hold your (or anyone else’s) attention? Fine, make that point.
You don’t think Carano and Santos are as skilled as some people make out? Ok, make that point.
All you’ve done is taken fact A: “the fight was on the sloppy brawl side of the fight spectrum” and jumped over to conclusion Z: “Is women’s MMA is bad MMA?” [The answer implicit from your column being “Yes”]. Then you feign surprise when people disagree vociferously and claim you are only trying to have an honest discussion.
Poor show all the way around.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
Not sure what you’re talking about, but it appears as though you’ve comfused a commenter with the original author of the post (me). I didn’t say the quoted phrase above.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Yeah that was a complete screw up on my part
I saw one post I wanted to quote as my example, then I saw a far more exciting one, but it was by AlwaysRelaxing.
I really do apologize for that, because that sort of mistake doesn’t help the discourse at all.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
Dang I committed a far far worse error, that quote wasn’t from you at all.
My sincere apologies—though I still disagree with you vigorously, I went ahead and put words in your mouth from another commentator, and that’s not good at all.
(quote was actually from AlwaysRelaxing on this post)
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
by capital L on Aug 16, 2009 5:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for admitting the mistake, something that needs to be done more often…especially by refs other than Yves Lavigne.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
It was such a stupid mistake though.
I was just so eager to push back on this that I grabbed the most inflammatory comment from a separate post that I was bickering on, and it wasn’t even the same commentator. Weak game—like pulling mount.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
Thank you for correcting the record. I am not AlwaysRelaxing, though on this point, we have similar (but not identical) views.
I think what we saw last night shows that women’s MMA is still somewhat in the dark ages. That even the top practitioners are fighting at a level of UFC 8-10 or so. If you put that on TV now, people would be appalled. It’s only because the sport has reached a somewhat high level of TECHNIQUE that people are willing to accept it as a sport, rather than human cockfighting.
I do believe there are great female MMA fighters out there. But there are not enough of them, and not enough of them are marketable to create the infrastructure needed to really grow the sport properly.
Let’s me honest—last night was not good for female MMA. Just listen to the way the announcers tried to talk themselves out of what their lying eyes were seeing.
Rather than be P.C. about it, I wanted to hear people’s reactions to what is happening in reality. I know most of us WANT female MMA to succeed, but did last night help the cause? I would ultimately say no, and this post is my explanation for why. Not because the sport needs a pretty face like Gina, but rather because last night exposed the fact that even some of the top female MMA artists AREN’T VERY GOOD.
If you saw that exact same fight, but it was men, where would you rank those two fighters? And if they were sold to you as “the best” the sport had to offer, wouldn’t you feel that perhaps that sport wasn’t worth much?
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 16, 2009 5:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The divisions are shallow, the matchmaking is spotty, and the talent is mercurial. All of these are legitimate concerns. However, these all applied to mens mixed martial arts as well until surprisingly recently. Whether or not women’s MMA ever grows to the degree that mens MMA has, I don’t find it all odd that the most interesting bouts should be presented on fight cards.
I don’t believe that a sloppy title fight harms women’s MMA. I think that Carano losing might harm the drawing power of women’s MMA on TV, but only in an opportunity cost sense—that is to say that she might be a better draw than Santos. This being a sport, however, sometimes the better draw loses.
As far as your last question goes: Lesnar/Couture, Mir/Nogueria, and Lesnar/Mir were all rather sloppy affairs. The latter two were more or less completely one-sided. All 4 athletes involved were portrayed as the best the sport has to offer, indeed two of them as near legends. The losses hurt the stature of the losers. The wins were good for the winners. I feel that perhaps the sport is doing ok.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
I would totally disagree with you that Lesnar/Couture, Mir/Nog/ or Lesnar/Mir were sloppy affairs.
Lesnar/Mir 1: You had technique beat raw power when Mir snatched a kneebar.
Lesnar/Couture: Size proved superior to a wily veteran, and Lesnar showed standup skills.
Mir/Nog: Mir put on a bloxing clinic to KO a man who’d never been KO’d before.
Lesnar/Mir 2: Lesnar showed major improvement at avoiding guard and showed that power+technique=unstoppable.
You would be hard-pressed to find a recent UFC championship fight that looked slopped the way Cyborg/Carano did. Can you imagine if Anderson Silva gave Forest Griffin the full mount TWICE and still won? That’s what we’re talking about.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
I totally agree. The female MMA fights I have seen have been sloppy affairs where fighters gas quickly. The fact that there are excuses as to why women’s MMA is in this position (not enough fighters, early in the sport’s history, no one is training full time, etc) doesn’t change the point that right now female MMA as a whole is very much technically lacking. Does that make is less entertaining? That really depends on the fight but I tend to find local MMA action and the fights on TUF much less entertaining because of the lower levels of skill exhibited.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
The problem with this post is that it assumes that the Carano/Cyborg fight is somehow representative of women’s MMA, rather than simply its most high-profile fight to date. Criticize Strikeforce for hyping Carano and Cyborg as the two best women in the world—that’s legitimate. Criticize our culture for making it all but guaranteed that a women’s MMA bout would never headline a major card until one of its participants had been in Maxim magazine—that’s legitimate too. But don’t tar all of women’s MMA with the Carano/Cyborg brush, particularly when it took place in a weight class basically created for those two fighters.
Cyborg’s used that throw pretty effectively before to get to side guard and wail on opponents. Carano was just the largest woman she had tried it on. Plus the adrenaline/whole wanting to bitchtoss Gina thing explains why she tried it again (coupled with the usual outcome being a pretty good position). Carano did not stand up from full mount, Cyborg had already worked her back into half guard both when Carano stood up – which shows how poor positionally Carano is on the ground at this point. She probably feared Cyborg’s better grappling/ground and pound and did not want to end up on the bottom against her. I agree that it was stupid and didn’t work out but if she had stayed down there and gotten reversed the tune would be a bit different today.
Definitely a sloppy fight, pretty exciting to watch though. They went right at each other.
Everybody fightin' bout a spoonful...
Cyborg had already worked her back into half guard both when Carano stood up
You sure about this? I remember it differently but didn’t record the fight so I can’t check.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
thetakeover:women's MMA as MMASuPreMaCy:Zuffa
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 16, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Bwahahaha!
Wow, I’m officially famous, if I’ve generated the kind of reaction MMA SuPreMaCY often does.
I am not opposed to women’s MMA. I in fact wish it was unformly great and admire it when it is. But what we saw Saturday night wasn’t great MMA—it was barely MMA at all.
I was just struck by how so many people, both here and in the announce booth, were bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging the truth of the situation. If the highest profile, championship bout that is supposed to establish women’s MMA turns into an ugly, sloppy, disaster, it’s worth our critical eye to analyze that and determine what it means.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
It’s just a young sport.
The same thing happened (or, is happening) with freestyle wrestling in North America. Ten years ago, female wrestling was bad wrestling. Even in the gold medal matches of major competitions. Now that it’s matured a little, it doesn’t look half as bad.
It’s just an age thing. As new as MMA is, women’s MMA is even more green.
by Ask Jeebs on Aug 17, 2009 12:35 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I also wonder if the weight issue won’t be far more critical in women’s MMA than men’s.
With shallow divisions, and far fewer “big” women to choose from, a 145 pounder like Cyborg might be the equivalent of Brock Lesnar for women. That is, she may go into every bout with a weight and strength advantage insurmountable by technique.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
Brock has a loss, so his weight and strength was not insurmountable...
Embraces Brock’s testicles
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Aug 18, 2009 4:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
