Looking Ahead at Strikeforce, Fedor Emelianenko Looms on the Horizon
by Kid Nate on Aug 16, 2009 8:26 PM EDT
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Coming out of last night's Strikeforce: Carano vs Cyborg event, we have some new hints about Scott Coker's plans for the rest of the year and his only star, Fedor. From MMA Junkie and Sherdog we know the following about their plans for Fedor:
- He won't be fighting Ricco Rodriguez. Coker denied that that had ever been considered. Likely opponents are Fabricio Werdum and Brett Rogers.
- Fedor will likely make his Strikeforce debut in November and he won't be fighting in San Jose.
Here's more on their event schedule from MMA Junkie:
"We'll have three 'Challengers' fights (this fall)," Coker said. "We'll have September, then we're going to have October, then we're going to have November. Then the big fights are going to be the Fedor fight, and then we'll do one more before the end of the year."
The September show has already been announced, as Tim Kennedy and Evangelista "Cyborg" Santos will headline a "Challengers Series" event in Bixby, Okla. The remaining dates have yet to be finalized, and Coker said both dates and locations are still being determined for the events.
But Coker's tentative plan would call for two shows each in November and December, an idea the Strikeforce exec didn't seem to mind.
Sherdog has more:
• Nick Diaz appears back on track to square off against Jay Hieron for the newly formed welterweight title. Last week, Diaz did not take a pre-fight drug test to ensure his re-licensure in the state before his scheduled bout with Hieron, forcing the promotion to scramble for last-minute opponent Jesse Taylor.
"We had a conversation with Cesar Gracie about the Nick Diaz situation, so I feel very comfortable that Nick will be back shortly," said Coker. "Jay Hieron came here to fight Nick Diaz, so we’ll put that fight together."
...
• With an alliance in place with Dream, Strikeforce could hold an event in Japan before the end of the year, said Coker.
• Coker said the promotion will up its ante to 18-20 events in 2010. At least 16 of those events will be held on Showtime, said Coker, fueling rumors that an option to broadcast events on CBS could be activated by the end of the year.
Big plans from Coker. I have to wonder where they will get enough fighters to fill out all these cards. The downside of the DREAM alliance that no one has mentioned is that it might cost Strikeforce access to the Sengoku fighters like Kazuo Misaki and Jorge Santiago who have fought for Strikeforce before.
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Hmmmmmmmm.....
They sure have a lot of big plans but not much in the way of details. I’ll be interested to see what they can actually pull off, it takes a lot of moolah to put on 20 shows in a year, that’s about the same amount as the UFC and they have two or three times as many fighters and one hundred times the resources. This isn’t the first promotion to have big plans like this but it would be the first to not fall flat on their face if they actually end up pulling it off. Count me skeptical but I’ll definitely be keeping my eye on them.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 16, 2009 8:34 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Well you gotta remember the challenger shows
If they put on a ton of Challenger shows then that adds up.
Realistically they have had 3 big shows so far and sounds like they want to do 5 before years end. I think it will be 4 big shows but we’ll see.
As for Fedor, does anyone really want to see Werdum/Fedor I give Werdum less of a chance against Fedor than I did Tim Sylvia and that is saying something.
i certainly don't mind seeing Werdum/Fedor
Werdum is one of the last top guys from PRIDE that Fedor never faced.
He didn’t set the world on fire in the UFC, but he did beat two tough guys — Gonzaga and Vera.
He’s top 15, I’ll take it.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Unless Overeem is still hurt by the fall, I don’t see any way you don’t grant Fedor an immediate title shot against Overeem. His (Overeem) belt means nothing unless his first title defense is against Fedor since Fedor has now signed with SF.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 16, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s top 15, I’ll take it.
Kinda sad when this is said about “the best in the world” fighting someone.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Werdum is a decent fighter, and Top 15…. But his style has no chance against Fedor. That’s the problem. It’s like a who cares fight. At least Overeem and Rogers have a slightly better chance on paper.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Same.
I’m not interested in seeing Fedor vs Werdum or Mir. He’d smash both guys in the same fashion he did against Nog, only neither of them has the chin Nog had. Everyone mocked the idea of Fedor fighting Ricco, but at least I can picture a scenario where Ricco pulls the upset off by working the takedowns and avoiding the subs for three rounds.
Was Frank Mir Top 15 when he fought Nogueira?
Was Brock Lesnar Top 15 when he fought Couture?
by madiq on Aug 16, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Especially when...
There was an open offer for him to face the immediate #2 & 3 right away with getting an instant title shot to boot..
Any promotion that doesn’t have it’s title holders regularly defend their titles (outside of injuries) is kind of a joke in my opinion.. Diaz “manually” skipping a drug test because we all knew he would have failed anyways.. I mean that kind of says a lot about the worth of their champions.. If that happened in the UFC, said title holder would have been stripped immediately and the belt would have went up for grabs against the fill-in & existing fighter under contract.. I mean in a sense, that’s like refusing to defend your title, is it not ???
The fact they let Cung walk away from his fighting responsibilities to pursue his acting career and not defend his belt for over a year ?? I mean why not strip him and keep the belt in circulatoin to the fighters that are fighting for you regularly and are working hard to earn their shots ?? I think it’s a blatant slap in the face to the fighters underneath & it send the wrong message to the fighters coming up that all they have to do is have 1 good performance and then they can pick and choose what they want instead of what’s best for the sport..
When you put the whole thing under the microscope, you’ll start to see that it’s really not all that “together” over there and that just means you’re going to see the demise of another promotion that doesn’t really know what they’re doing..
It’s not just Cung Le, three of their belts haven’t been defended in over a year. If anyone is still wondering why the UFC wants exclusive contracts this is why.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 17, 2009 9:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Coker said the promotion will up its ante to 18-20 events in 2010.
They don’t have the money, fighters, or administrative horsepower to pull that off.
Keep firing Assholes!
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.
Very true. Unless it’s 8 to 10 Challenger series events, which in that case, who cares? Those events are typically bad.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL, you say bad...
They say profitable.
=)
The ShoXC events from EliteXC were better than their EliteXC big cards.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I inquired about the Sengoku thing at some point…never got a definitive answer, so I left it alone, until I knew for a fact. What’s probably most likely is that the Sengoku fighters who do fight for Strikeforce will do so in the US, far away from the watchful eyes of Japanese casual fans.
I Have Brought This Up Before...
But, Strikeforce has helped Sengoku out as well, in terms of loaning them fighters, so I don’t see a big problem. What I really hope is that Sengoku becomes friendly towards DREAM and Strikeforce.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Never happen. At least not anytime soon. DREAM tried to get them to merge, and Sengoku basically told them to screw.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
I am aware of it since I posted it. Nothing official though.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
1. A lot of other organizations have had big plans in the past, and they end up never happening. They might happen here, but I would rather wait and see. Plus, of those 16 events, how many will be Challenger Series, which typically give us 1 (maybe 2) fights at the most to care about?
2. The fact that Fedor hasn’t signed on for an opponent yet isn’t a good sign. Something tells me they are having issues getting somebody to fight him for the right price tag.
3. Co-promotions always fall apart in less then 6 months. DREAM is hurting in Japan with Sengoku getting the Gold Medal Judo guy.
I believe SF won’t make it. For the obvious reasons – resources. I have some issues with Coker and I doubt him. Although they might have someone behind them I don’t know about? They don’t even have ppv so how come they’ll pay fighers ? Fedor – ok, they can afford it, but I’m a bit worried they won’t be able to pay appropriate money to the guys who fight him + rest of them. They might end up a one trick pony. I firmly believe the only organization to accomodate Fedor, promote him, pay everyone good money and not go bancrupt is UFC. They have more ppv buys then people watching strike force on showtime. Probably 3-4 times as much. So I have no idea where the money for wages are coming from in SF
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 9:58 PM EDT reply actions
Ugh...
Showtime pays them a fee everytime they put on a show and they are owned by the same group who owns the San Jose Sharks and HP Pavilion.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
They don’t pay them that much. Not enough to pay for Fedor, his opponent, and the entire undercard.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I was not aware that Fedor fights on all of their events.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
When you aren’t making a lot of money per event, one big money loss event can set a company back for the year.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
But they are making money on every event.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Their record and history. It is not a coincidence that all fans and even Dana White himself praised Strikeforce for being the only profitable promotion other than the UFC in North America.
Oh, and I do.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no proof of this. They could even be running at a slight loss with their investors, with the expectation to turn a profit. Honestly, you have no clue.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly...
You have no clue…see, I can do it too.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not the one saying something with zero proof. You said M-1 will split the losses. I’m just asking for the proof. You have yet to provide it to me.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, you can go look at their gates and payroll info to get a good idea. If DANA WHITE is admitting it, I’d be pretty damn sure it’s true.
I’m not saying that will continue to be the case in the future, however.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Dana White never said they turn a profit. Nor has he ever admitted to seeing the balance sheet.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
They are not in the red. It has been reported many times they make, not lose, money on their shows.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You said they are making money on EVERY event. And still you have yet to prove it.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. You’re really stretching now. Sup, you’re probably best off to just stop now.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Nope, I’m just proving MMASuremacy doesn’t know what he is talking about here. He clearly stated they make money on every event without being able to back it up.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Because I am questioning his responses? That’s funny. If he had a true sense of reality, he would be able to prove to me what he has said.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
the funny thing is that some people still make an equasion: “they say they are profitable” = “they are profitable”. Means I’m profitable because I say so:) They might be or might not, but what they say is proving nothing…
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you this cynical with everything in your life? You’re never going to see a balance sheet. They’re not a public business. But everyone knows, and admits, they’ve been profitable up until now. Trying to deny it is pretty pointless.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
In my line of work, I have seen the balance sheets on 100’s of companies. You would be amazed at some who you would think would be turning a profit but are either barely breaking even or being subsidiazed with the assumption they can turn a profit later.
Like I said, you have no proof of which type of company Strikeforce is.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I get what always is saying
No one knows if or how much money Strikeforce is making.
I think the thing is how many times do you hear a company is doing well and then bam out of business.
Pride was doing well.
WFA was doing well
IFL was doing well
Affliction was doing well
Now is Strikeforce in the same boat I doubt it but no one knows for sure.
I think the reality is when Strikeforce decided to sign Fedor things got a lot harder because up until then the UFC left them alone and now you have to deal with all that the UFC is gonna throw at you.
Exactly. For all we know, the guys who own the Sharks are subsidizing Strikefore small amounts of money every year. They could be doing it because they bring good business to their arena. They could be doing it because they think they can make money off of it later down the road.
The fact that anybody on here claims Strikeforce is making money every show, or even half their shows is talking out of their behind. Guys like MMA Supremacy act like they know everything, but likely don’t know anything.
Like i have said, I don’t know Strikeforce specifically. But I have seen enough private companies to know that things aren’t always like they seem once the books are opened up.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Guys like MMA Supremacy act like they know everything, but likely don’t know anything.
Guys like AlwaysRelaxing act like they know everything, but likely don’t know anything. Funny how you attack certain statements but don’t know enough about them to know what you are talking about.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Arguments involving Supremacy usually end up becoming circular.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 17, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
As far as I’m concerned AlwalysRelaxing said that he does not know, and the whole argument is coming from the fact that your only prove that organization is profitable comes from the fact that it’s boss said so – it’s pretty ridiculous
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions
truth:) everyone seem to be doing well before they’re out of business. This time I wanted to say something like: “i wish them all the luck to make it”, but then realized that actually I don’t.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh believe me you had people on mma message boards claiming how well Affliction was doing and how Tom Atencio was signing Fedor through 2012 so they had to be doing good.
I saw people talking about Affliction 4 and guess what Affliction 3 never even happened.
Sorry
I subconsciously filter out a lot of what I hear, just because the majority of online MMA fans tend to be… uninformed. So when I said I don’t think anyone thought Affliction was doing well, I was referring to the sources I trust.
I oversimplified, my bad.
Yea, 3 of your examples aren’t any good, because they were bleeding money from the start and everyone knew it. Pride WAS profitable, but was killed by scandal.
As for SF, it doesn’t take much time to look at the public stats that are put out. Gate vs. salaries. Yes, that doesn’t cover the whole equation, but with a sweet deal on the HP Pavilion (which is obvious), it doesn’t take an economist to show they’re making money.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Tim Burke on Aug 16, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So we have 2 out of probably 50 variables to the equation. Important variables, but still far from the actual picture.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
You really don’t have a clue. No business is that simple, even small businesses. The costs of running any business are much higher then most MMA fans realize.
Let me give you a few small ideas of why not:
1. You have 11 employees. Let’s say Coker makes $100,000, and the other 10 make $50,000 a year. That’s $600,000 in salaries a year. That doesn’t include medical…. So let’s say closer to $700,000.
2. Pay for hotels of the fighters, medical insurance, bonds for the event, small fees here and there. Don’t forget flights.
2. Don’t forget renting a small amount of office space too.
The list goes on and on…. I wouldn’t be shocked if he needs to clear $100,000 per show just in fixed costs. And that is likely VERY low.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Its funny that your screen name is AlwaysRelaxing
because you seem pretty uptight in this whole thread. Enjoy the shows, let Coker worry about the $$$.
I have no idea why some of you guys get all worked up over these things. We are the fans not the accountants.
sigh
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Aug 17, 2009 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Whatever beer monster!!
Look people did not say those things maybe Affliction but even Affliction people were saying how 100k buys for Affliction 1 and 200k buys for 2 were enough to keep Affliction in the black.
As for the IFL, I know you must be kidding. The IFL was founded by Kurt Otto and Gareb Shamus, both who had finacially deep pockets then it went public making even more money and finally it had the first primetime mma show on network tv so no not everyone thought the IFL was doomed.
As for the WFA they again had huge finacial backing. Enough to sign superstars Rampage Jackson, Bas Rutten, and Matt Lindland and were about to sign Tito Ortiz barring a last second Miracle from Lorenzo Fertita.
The idea that everyone knew these organizations were gonna die is laughable.
As for Pride yeah they were doing finacially well but even a week before the Zuffa purchase they were telling media they were not for sale.
Finally gate vs. salaries- You do know you only see reported salaries correct. It was reported that Fedor only made 300k off of Affliction 1 and 2 and Brock only made 400k from 100, laughable. So yeah to say compare gate vs. salaries doesnt really work when people are paid more than reported!!!!!
Deep pockets mean nothing when your business model is flawed from the beginning. Everyone knew they’d fail because they were bleeding money, like I said. They went national with an unsound business model, and “deep pockets” weren’t going to be enough to save them. The UFC bled money too for a long time too, and everyone thought they were doomed. They managed to turn it around. None of the others did.
And no one with any knowledge thought Affliction’s 100k buys was going to keep them in the black. No one. The estimate to come close was 250k buys.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
The point is
Just because you thought everyone of those companies were doomed to fail didnt mean everyone else did.
You think the people that bought IFL stock thought it was doomed or you think Tom Atencio or Gareb Shamus went in to lose money.
Simply put it’s not just a gate vs. salaries deal. As always relaxing pointed out employees dont work for free there are a ton of costs, reported salaries are not always what a fighter makes.
It’s easy to say that you know a company is making money because you see gate vs. salaries but the reality is any company can be losing money even the UFC and if they’re a private company they dont have to reveal squat.
What you and everyone else knows is what is reported on the internet. Well guess what it was also reported on the internet that if Barack Obama was elected president that all white people would be made slaves so you cant always believe something just because it was reported on the internet.
I didn’t say I knew that they were making money for sure based on the public numbers. I said it was a good indication that they were.
And people always use the “don’t believe everything you read on the internet” when they don’t have anything else to back up their side of a discussion. It’s played out.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Your right you didnt say they were.
MMASupremecy said they were making money on every event and when always relaxing asked him for proof you began to throw out the whole gate vs. salaries comparison and tell people that “it doesn’t take an economist to show they’re making money”.
All I’m doing is showing the other side of the table. It’s not as simple as gate vs. salaries and when a company is private no one knows for sure if they are making or losing money.
My whole point is Strikeforce could be doing really well or these first 3 major shows could have been a set back we dont know and I dont act like I know.
The only reason I even brought anything up is you and mmasupremacy acted like always relaxing was stupid because he asked for proof of mmasupremacy’s statement that Strikeforce makes money on every show. It’s not supid it’s a simple question and it sparked a debate about how much money it takes to run a mma organization.
dead right
There were very many people who failed trying to judge situation using externals.
At the same time it’s very naive to say that someone is making money because he says so. There is endless string of evidence supporting completetly opposite theory.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Strikeforce, on the whole is on the green. That was my whole point. Whether they stay that way remains to be seen, but there is reason why Showtime made a deal with them after the whole EliteXC fiasco, and that is that they know how to run a business and they weren’t going to put themselves in giant hole like EliteXC did.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 17, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again, you don’t know if they are making money. Every company will give the perception they are, but there is still zero proof of this.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 17, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Except the people claiming they make money are not associated with Strikeforce, but come from media outlets and other resources like Dave Meltzer.
We also have quotes like this from their past events:
A crowd of 16,326 generated over $1.1 million of live gate revenue for the "Shamrock vs. Cung Le" mixed martial arts mega-event at San Jose’s HP Pavilion on Saturday, March 29th.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 17, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s true they’ve made money in the past, but the game has changed in the last few months.
I’m not saying they’re going to be bankrupt in a year, but Showtime and CBS weren’t paying enough out to keep Elite on it’s feet, so there is some evidence that things may be different now that they have different TV deals and are stepping up in the salary/promotion department.
There’s no solid evidence that they’re losing money this second, but it’s not a 100% fact that they are doing as well as they were doing (per show and relatively speaking) because they are doing different things.
And Showtime is highly unlikely to burn cash on a MMA company to help them pay the bills. It’s all about steady profits for these TV Stations. Being part of a large conglomerate, they can’t take as many chances and randomly help Strikeforce out if they are being outbid by the UFC. CBS has shareholders to report to.
The UFC does not. Which is one of the benefits of being a private company. They can have uneven revenues for a year or two to fight off competition, and they don’t have to worry about angry stockholders.
Advantage Zuffa
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats because they have two completely different deals.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t XC actually pay CBS to get on their network? Or am I way off there?
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
I don’t think they paid CBS but they got almost no compensation for the shows.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
Pro Elite
had to pay a retainer fee so in essence they did pay to be on the air..
They received zero compensation because they didnt make anything on their events.. They were in the red because they spent too much money trying to buy up smaller promotions..
Strikeforce’s record and history isn’t as important because Coker and Showtime have changed the way they promote fights. Before Showtime was a regional promotion with regional draws and stars. Now they are trying to compete on a national level. Past history isn’t going to be an accurate barometer of future success in this case.
Yes, we don’t know the future, but my point was that they were/are the only North American promotion able to make money off of their shows.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 17, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
More statements with no proof.
Only Coker and the owners know for sure.
All companies will say they are making money because it gives the perception of success. Doesn’t mean it’s true.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 17, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Again...
I have already replied to you in other posts, though you seem to ignore it, that the Showtime deal was a GREAT deal for them.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/blog/2009/03/strikeforce-deal-with-showtime-and-cbs.asp
Not only that, they have always had great gate numbers with low payrolls and expenses because their management company owns the group of arenas they do shows in. The recent sponsorships (Rock Star, EA Sports, Full Tilt, etc) also add in to their revenue stream. There is more evidence that they are making money, which many people within MMA have stated than there is evidence that they are losing money.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa anyone? Or have they been taking a loss on every event since UFC 31?
by Screwface on Aug 17, 2009 2:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Context and reading comprehension my friend.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 18, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
And it is also the reason SF set up the Fedor fights as co-promotions, which means they won’t have to bear the losses. They will be split between the two parties.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Once again, how do you know this? How do you know how the deal is structured?
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Its called reading, researching, and comprehension.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Show me what you have read that proves this.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Since you’re unable to do it, I’ll bring the info to you this one time.
As co-promoters, Strikeforce and M-1 Global will share in the profits – or losses – of the three contracted events that feature Emelianenko. But unlike the now-defunct Affliction, Strikeforce will still operate a full slate of proprietary events in which M-1 will not play a role.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
That article is filled with Scott Coker quotes. What you provided is not a Scott Coker quote.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
So Junkie writes an article filled with Coker quotes, and the subtext between the quotes is going to be wrong? You’re grasping for straws now.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Morgan is one of the worst writers. And him saying something and having a direct quote are two huge differences. If it came directly from Coker like that, he would of been able to put a quote on it. Many things get misinterpreted in the translation.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
even if it’s true doesn’t mean they are safe:) Because they’re in the eye of the tornado now…. And M-1 imho is the worst partner to work with I believe.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. Look around a little bit. The info is all over the place, including on this very website.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Co-promotion can mean many things. Show me. Show me how the deal is structured.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks...
I suspected Showtime is paying them something, but don’t know how much. It’s more profitable for showtime to put some movie or serial at the same time (as Strikeforce has in between 250-500k viewers) – that means they must have some long perspective plans. What I mean, and what Dana said praising them, was that they were putting smaller shows, and had less prominent fighters, and growing slowly but surely. Now they went from being “local show” right on a big stage, claiming they’ll put 20 events – it’s completely different ballgame, so it’s either they have some significant sponsor, or they’ll fail in my book. They just got into direct competition with the UFC. It’s interesting to see what will happen, and I’m thinking “what’s best for sport as a whole”?
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
They have to do that, it was part of the contract with Showtime to host about 15-18 shows a year. It was calculated that Showtime is paying around 500K per show.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
How dare Strikeforce put on all these free events on TV. I hope they fall on their ass and all the fighters end up on Welfare.
Boo free MMA.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
The old, “anyone who questions if an org can make money hates free mma gag.”
Get over it, you can enjoy the show and still question if they are going to make money/last in the long run.
It's not really out concern
About the financial situation of Strikeforce.
They have been around, making money for 20 years. I’d assume they know what they are doing.
I just wish everyone would stop all the doomsday shit with Strikeforce. More jobs,money and content is better for the fans and fighters.
It’s not even logically open for debate.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Aug 17, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s not better for the fans. If Strikeforce wasn’t around, we would have Mousasi, Shields, and a few other solid fighters in the UFC.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 17, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Because...
Mousasi didn’t sign with DREAM first?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 17, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
and one more thing - fragmentation is not good for this sport
….. In my honest opionion. One big organization with the best fighters is what makes mma different from the dying boxing. If there will be 3-4-5 big, equal bodies we’ll have the same ibf, wbo, wbc, wba, ibo kind of crap that’s killing boxing. wondering who would beat who if they ever fought, but they can’t because of the contractual obligations. Seriously – I hope SF, Dream and whatever will fail and return to the shape they were before. I like to watch NBA because I know there is virtually everyone who counts there. There is no point to have multiple organizations with their stars
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:03 PM EDT reply actions
you and I sir,
seem like the only two people on earth that understand this.
by cagefightonacid on Aug 17, 2009 3:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it’s good to know I’m not the only one:)
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Both wrong
The problem isn’t the fact of mutltiple healthy organizations. The more profitable, well run orgs out there. The better the money. The more content thats available. The more opportunities their are for up and coming fighters.
The real problem is the fact that Zuffa will never Co-promote.
What would be the problem with a New Years card every year where the UFC/Strikeforce champs meet? Like a Super Bowl if you would!
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
hmm - it's always dangerous to say "never"
So how come you say they’ll NEVER co-promote? I know I’m one of a very few, but I believe that DW will do whatever will be best for this sport in the and of the day. His personality is sometimes difficult to deal with, but at the end of the day this guy is a fan. This is making Zuffa different from the other organs, and as long as they contiue this line, they will be different. There is quite strong conflict of interest now and personal pride has been in play – the whole Emelianenko thing. What I firmly believe, Emelianenko signed with someone else primarly because of his personal problems with DW + mobsters surrounding him. If Strikeforce won’t destroy themselves, M-1 and competition from UFC hopefuly will do this. And great Fedor eventually will either fight in the UFC or tomato cans in Japan. M-1 will go bancrupt and Strikeforce will fold to it’s shape from before this silly conflict. This is my take on things – I always can be wrong of course. Only time will tell. As per fragmentation – don’t try to blame Zuffa for everything because they made it all possible and they’re making the rules for now. Zuffa will co-promote if will have to – so far they never had to, and there is no point for them to let some scum of the earth like russian m-1 live of their hard work
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Co-promotions never work. Each company has different sources of revenues which means different reasons for doing what they are doing. Those two things almost never merge properly.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 17, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
you're missing the point
you’re not being realistic. multiple orgs dilute talent, end of story, co-promotion is ridiculous.
by cagefightonacid on Aug 20, 2009 3:25 AM EDT up reply actions
According to Buentello's manager...
SF wouldn’t offer the kind of money other fighters were asking for to fight Fedor.. So they’re headed back to the UFC..
I take it SF isn’t going to be offering the 500K plus paydays for a fighter to take on Fedor ..
Which means they might lose Overeem, Rogers, or Werdum BEFORE they get a chance to match them up with Fedor.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The only one I could see them loosing in the process would be..
Rogers.. He’s undefeated and looking to make a name for himself.. He’ll jump at the chance to get the lime light payscale and opposition..
Rogers.. He’s undefeated and looking to make a name for himself.. He’ll jump at the chance to get the lime light payscale and opposition..I dont think the UFC want’s Overeem & Werdum… They cut Werdum because he wasn’t worth the money they had him under contract for and he didnt want to take less (which he ultimately did in the long run)..
Rogers.. He’s undefeated and looking to make a name for himself.. He’ll jump at the chance to get the lime light payscale and opposition..I dont think the UFC want’s Overeem & Werdum… They cut Werdum because he wasn’t worth the money they had him under contract for and he didnt want to take less (which he ultimately did in the long run)..Overeem is to injury prone for them to make a serious play at the moment IMO.. He isnt worth what SF is paying him because he cant stay healthy long enough to be effective and the high pace of the UFC stream might prove to be too much for Overeem.. He’s like the Grant Hill of MMA at this point.. Big contract, low performance… lol
by MMAuthority on Aug 16, 2009 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
They will go after Werdum & Overeem. Not because they like them as fighters, but to hurt Strikeforce.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Werdum just left the UFC and still has multiple fights left with Strikeforce. Overeem still has fights with DREAM and Strikeforce.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is one of the things Affliction was criticized for, blown up payroll.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Now the minimum wage to fight Edor is $800 000.
Keep firing Assholes!
Evil always triumphs because good is dumb.
Under Affliction, which is why they no longer promote fights.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is exactly the problem. The UFC knows this. They know approximately what Strikeforce’s financial limitations are. Therefore, they just have to dangle larger contracts in front of Buentello, Werdum, Rogers, and Overeem…..
And Strikeforce has two options….. Match the offer and overpay beyond their means. Or not pay, lose a fighter, and be out of solid challengers for Fedor.
Either way, they are screwed.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Not screwed at all. They would be screwed if they started having Affliction like payrolls,which they don’t.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
So if the UFC goes to Brett Rogers manager and says: "Your fighter gets $500,000 a fight if he signs with us. It’s a 4 fight deal. That’s $2 Million.
And then Strikeforce says…. We will give you $100,000 to fight Fedor. We all know he isn’t fighting Fedor. Which means they lost an opponent.
For Strikeforce to keep Rogers, they will have to increase their payscale.
I used simple math so you could understand.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, seriously…stop. All of these guys have multiple fights left on their contracts. This is not going to be happening anytime soon for any of the guys you keep talking about.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Zuffa’s model has never been to over pay and outbid other promotions to steal a bunch of fighters away from other promotions. By doing this to attack Strikeforce, they will be screwing up their own business plan as well.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really. As is with most new businesses, they are likely not paying out their maximum. Start low with the expectation that it will increase in the future. That’s business 101.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL..
No… Zuffa’s model has been to buy the entire promotions thinking they were getting the fighters as part of the deals..
by MMAuthority on Aug 16, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Thinking is the correct word, which wasn’t the case.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
you've got the point.... but there is something else I don't like here
It’s the fact that the situation is gravitating (for the moment) to these we have in boxing – multiple organizations (in boxing these are “sanctioning bodies”) that are fragmentating the sport and leaving people wondering “who’d win if they ever fought”.
Zuffa won’t give too much to Rogers I believe though – Fedor himself might drain Strikeforce
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Well that's the point..
Affliction blew up the payroll to unrealistic numbers and now the fighters don’t want to take less than what others previous got for equal work, equal pay…
It’s sort of a stalemate at this point..
by MMAuthority on Aug 16, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you know why the payroll was blown up? Because that was what was required to get the fighters away from the UFC. The UFC has the money and revenue to outspend the hell out of every other promotion combined if they have to. Unless the fighter cares about something other than money, Zuffa sets the payscale.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
The UFC let Affliction hang themselves. They knew they couldn’t afford the fighter salaries, so they didn’t even try to match it.
With Strikeforce, they aren’t as stupid, so they need to do the reverse. Except the UFC likely has the buffer in their profits to make it happen. At least with current PPV business the way it is.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa would much rather let Strikeforce overpay for their fighter than outbid to steal them.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 16, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe Zuffa will play some poker with them to drain them financially – create a threat of paying more, and making it known to the fighers, which will make them demand more from SF. Just an opinion. there are some downsides of such actions – like rising salary standard overall and making Zuffa fighters try to demand more. So not sure if they’ll do this. But if I were White I’d consider this option
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa will not offer to pay more than they can afford to.
They didn’t play ball with people who were going to go to Affliction because they knew Affliction was paying too much, and it would be stupid to risk everything to hurt someone that’s going to go down on their own.
Strikeforce isn’t paying Affliction money, they really aren’t even paying Zuffa money, so they can outbid Strikeforce for many fighters without breaking their bank accounts, or their business model, so they’ll do it.
And if Strikeforce decides to match them on a specific fighter, it will hurt Strikeforce in the long run. At least if they do it more then once.
It’s like 2 poker players going heads up. Only Zuffa has a 10:1 chip stack advantage. They can afford to bluff and lose a few chips. One bad move by Strikeforce, and their chip stack is greatly diminished.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
one more thing – it reminds me of the cold war a bit. If payroll goes up the winner will be the organization with best resources. So whatever will happen – Zuffa should crush them if they’ll really go for it
by UniversalSoul on Aug 17, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m interested in seeing who gets the task of being Fedor’s first opponent in a cage. I actually think Fedor is a lot more dangerous in a cage than in a ring.
I’m curious as to why he would be more dangerous? Do you think he would change his fighting style? I think he is probably equally dangerous whether in a ring, cage or back alley.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
I just think his style is more productive from a cage standpoint rather than inside of a ring. His success in a ring is just a testament to his raw skill.
IS IT ???
Because to my knowledge he has never had to deal with the threat of a big wrestler throwing elbows to his head when they have him pinned down..
It’s a very dynamic part of the game that he has never had to deal with so it makes the ground game a little easier IMO.. If there is no threat of elbows it means that it’s pointless to even try to pin someone down and look to damage them in the short range on the ground. Therefor they have to “open up” on the ground to enforce damage which also means opening up opportunities for the guy on the bottom to shoot for sub’s and escapes.. He doesn’t have to worry about trying to transition when someone is pressed up against him chest on chest and dropping short hard elbows that are notorious for opening up cuts and potentially altering the path of the fight in one hit.. The effects psychologically it can have on a fighter if cut bad can often times turn the tide of how a fighter fights during the coarse of the fight itself..
Also ...
The ring slows the fight pace down on the ground.. It gives someone in a disadvantageous position a way to stop the progress of his opponent and give them a few seconds to rest as they move and restart on the ground..
In the cage (with elbows), it means when you get pinned up against the fence, you’re stuck there until you figure a way out on your own.. If a bigger stronger guy gets you pinned up against the cage and starts dropping fast heavy elbows looking for cuts.. you have to slow your offensive game down and also be mindful of that particular part of the game and if you can’t get out, then the fight could be ending for you.. 1 nasty cut from an elbow over the eye & the fight is over.. Elbows are also very hard to defend against with great success.. You can dodge one here and there but eventually you’ll get tagged if it’s trying to defend a barrage..
Because to my knowledge he has never had to deal with the threat of a big wrestler throwing elbows to his head when they have him pinned down
This is all completely irrelevant since Strikeforce does not allow elbows on the ground
by StevenGiles on Aug 17, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
lol..
exactly… So how can he judge that Fedor is going to be “more” dominate in a cage ???
The true rules of the cage dont apply in this case there for it is a moot point he is trying to make.. The true cage rules allow for elbows & that’s a very dynamic part of the game in this day and age and when you take that away.. It makes it a little easier to compete against IMO..
It basically puts the ground fighter at another advantage because he doesn’t have to learn to defend against them and it leave more room to work for submissions without the threat of being pinned down and smashed on with the most effective short range weapon on the ground.. the elbow..
by MMAuthority on Aug 17, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the reasoning behind no elbows is actually
To stop lay and pray wrestlers from sitting in someone’s guard for 3 rounds. It puts more emphasis on passing guard and going for Subs.
Hence why Japaneese promotions (who don’t allow elbows) tend to have more Subs and less decisions.
Finish fights. Thats what I’m about.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I am looking for the study, and I think Fagan might have it, but someone looked at Pride vs. UFC and determined that they had almost the exact same decision rate.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
According to sherdog
Pride:
600 fights
31.33% submission
34.33% KO/TKO
31.50% Decision
2.83% Other
UFC:
1,187 fights
31.34% submission
37.49% KO/TKO
29.74% Decision
1.43% Other
The original cage was in the UFC
The rules in place for the UFC are unified by all athletic commisions..
The UFC allows elbows.. Thus they are the “true” rules for the cage.. It’s a specific tactic that’s utilized in a cage ..
I don’t necessarily call someone throwing elbows as someone who is LNP’ing.. They don’t use elbows for the simple fact that the increase the amount of cut’s in fights and cut’s lead to stoppages.. I know plenty of fighters that have been in PRIDE & other various promotions that have LNP’ed too..
I recall many fights being ended with elbows… Tito has knocked guys out from ground and pound using elbows, A. Silva knocked out Tony using a flying elbow, Diego Sanchez one his fight against Guida with the use of his elbows from bottom.. Elbows are a very tactical weapon utilized in MMA. They are one of the most utilized weapons in a short game due to the density of the bone and the fact it’s pointy.. You dont need a lot of room to make an elbow effective.. 6 inches of space and that bone could split you or rock you senseless.. It makes ground fighting a little more dynamic in comparison to a real fight.. a real fight means once it hits the ground, you have to protect yourself from every angle.. Sure great submission grapplers can pull off submissions, but it levels the playing field when the grappler has to also worry about getting busted up in the short range.. How effective is a fist from full guard ?? not very effective because the man on the bottom will be holding your head down and preventing you from creating the space needed to generate enough force to do what an elbow could do with 6 inches of space..
Submission grapplers need room to open up as well.. Hard to pull off a sub when you get get enough space to move your hips ?? By forcing the guy on top or bottom for that matter to open up to create space for force it also opens up the space needed for the submission counter.. When you have to worry about getting pinned against the side of the cage and no room for position while also being mindful of the oncoming elbows .. It makes it a totally different fight for both fighters.. A great wrestler with size, strength & a solid base now has the ability to pin you, shut your submission’s down and force you to fight another way.. All while protecting yourself from a weapon that can’t really be defended by blocking..
by MMAuthority on Aug 17, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You can use elbows in strikeforce or Dream
You just can’t use downward elbows to a grounded opponent. (i.e. Laying in guard and using elbows in lieu of a pass)
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
This isn’t a BJJ competition, I don’t care if people pass guard.
If you don’t like getting elbowed in the face, don’t let the guy elbow you in the face.
Removing elbows is a thing that doesn’t make sense to me, maybe in a 1 night tournament to prevent cuts and make it easier for the winners to advance, but otherwise, let them fly.
by Phildo on Aug 17, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's Mixed Martial Arts not Mixed Martial Dry Humping
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I think no elbows leads to more LnP personally. I know people rag wrestlers for being boring, but if you give them less tools to finish the fight, it only leads to more LnP in my eyes. If you can take someone down and elbow them its another tool you can use to pass someone’s guard and of course cause damage. If someone is in your guard and elbowing you in the face you want to do something about it, you don’t just let them do it.
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