Strikeforce Gina Carano vs Cris Cyborg Post-Fight Analysis -- The New Face of Women's MMA Is Intensity
by Kid Nate on Aug 16, 2009 12:38 AM EDT
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I'm told by the ladies that despite the loss, Gina Carano will still be the face of women's MMA in the U.S. I disagree. Cris Cyborg's victory will have a cultural impact and can't help but blunt the career arc of Gina Carano.
Cris Cyborg Santos will now be in desperate need for equally frightening and compelling challengers. With Gina Carano as champ, CBS could potentially feature her as a headliner regardless of opponent. With Chris Cyborg as the champ and no title challengers in sight, Strikeforce is desperate for headline fighters. When you consider that Nick Diaz is out for as much as a year, and Jake Shields is a demonstrated flop on CBS, you realize just how much Strikeforce has riding on the success of Fedor Emelianenko than ever as a pop culture figure.
As a fan, I can't help having a feeling of dissatisfaction. Had the welterweight fight between Jay Hieron and Jesse Taylor been on the live TV card I'd doubtless feel very satisfied.
Regardless, there is no doubt that the card delivered a night of top quality MMA. Cyborg and Carano both delivered with, forgive the idiom, balls out aggressiveness and heart. Both fighters landed hard shots and had good position. It was a short fight, but not a one-sided fight. Carano acquited herself and her camp very will, but she had no answer for Cyborg's power.
Gegard Mousasi has silenced this doubter. His utter dominance of Renato 'Babalu' Sobral for the Strikeforce light heavyweight belt sent a message to the MMA world. There is a reason that the UFC is spending so much time trying to poison the well for Mousasi -- he is the fighter in the M-1/Strikeforce/Electronic Arts camp with the most long-term potential.
I have no doubt in my mind that the UFC would sign Mousasi in a heartbeat, but since he's under contract with M-1/Strikeforce for a few more fights, expect the PR blitz against Mousasi to continue. The legal front would seem to have been silenced since the cease and desist order threatened by the UFC came to nought. As long as they can't sign Mousasi, they can use the EA games contract as a PR tool to send a message to less marketable fighters to stay away from the money offered by the world's largest video game company.
In heavyweight action, Fabricio Werdum easily won his tune up fight and now can be marketed against Fedor as a credible top 15 opponent. It will take more than this to get Werdum into my top 10. But the announcement of an opportunity to fight Fedor for the title of best heavyweight in MMA could pull Fabricio up into the official USA TODAY/SB Nation Consensus MMA rankings.
The Gilbert Melendez performance gets his career back on track. There is no better way to put some momentum back into your career than to get a revenge win. In their first fight, Ishida shocked Melendez, outworking and outthinking Melendez. In tonight's fight, Melendez showed he had learned the right lessons from the experience. He used his punching power and defensive wrestling to utterly dominate the Endless Fighter. Ishida was game and landed some hard shots on the feet, but going 1/7 on takedowns is how you lose a title fight. Gilbert Melendez has just made his inevitable rematch with Josh Thomson much more compelling.
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Cyborg is marketable, she’s like a female Wanderlei Silva.
Keep firing Assholes!
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead.
I think it fits perfectly. PRIDE FC Wanderlei Silva too.
"He built his whole reputation (as a) waffle house chef. They've been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes." - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
I agree - she looks a bit like Wanderlei
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I feel bad for Mousasi and Shields
They are top guys in their respective weight classes but almost every other good fighter is with the UFC. I mean Mousasi now goes to face Sokodjou and Choi probably that is like taking a step back. And what Shields faces Lindland? Both guys should be in the UFC along with Fedor but are not.
Speaking of Fedor:
I dont think he is gonna be the draw some do.I’m sorry but what because we saw a commercial with the AA KO and the rest of the names he has beat casual fans want to tune in. And how does a Mike Kyle win make Werdum top 15? Top 20 I guess but top 15? That’s a strech.
Oh yeah and Kid Nate why no love for Gilbert Melendez?
Cris
No h
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 16, 2009 1:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mousasi
Could you imagine Mousasi in the UFC 205 lb division. Fights with Rampage, Shogun, Silva, Lyoto, tons of possibilities.
Where does he go next in strikeforce? Rematch with Bablu? too soon for that. Feijao wouldn’t be bad but he just lost to Kyle. So who’s next?
by TannerMatthews on Aug 16, 2009 12:50 AM EDT reply actions
Well unforunately Fedor(exhibition sparring), Sokodjou and probably Choi, which I dont think are good tests at all.
After that maybe Lil Nog or Ricardo Arona. Last thing we need is a Babalu rematch right away. Yeah maybe if Feijao can string together a few wins.
But most want to see him in the UFC.
Shameless
“Fabricio Werdum easily won his tune up fight and now can be marketed against Fedor as a credible top 15 opponent. It will take more than this to get Werdum into my top 10. But the announcement of an opportunity to fight Fedor for the title of best heavyweight in MMA could pull Fabricio up into the official USA TODAY/SB Nation Consensus MMA rankings.”
That little sneaky attempt to discredit Fedor and the entire MMA ranking community is pretty slimy, not to mention empirically indefensible.
Stay classy, Kid.
The dumb backdoor assertion that the very possibility of fighting Fedor leads to a bump in one’s consensus rankings. It flies in the face of the evidence (seriously, check the ratings archives and the movements), and it’s insulting to all the sites that make up the consensus rating.
It's true though...
and it’s not just with Strikeforce, it happens in the UFC. A title shot gives you a boost in the rankings.
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Evidence?
You’ll be wasting your time looking, but it won’t take very long. There is none.
Read below!
Barnett at #2! Mir’s sudden rise up after beating Brock…
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
And it’s not just where they move after signing on for a title fight. The rumors and having other people tied up, and being placed in a contender’s match makes them move up.
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
OK
Read below yourself, genius. It’s been explained.
And you’re really stretching now.
LOL..."Genius"?
No calling anyone a genius you fucking genius!….lmao
I love this site!
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
Yeah, I’ve been called much worse on this site and the other guy didn’t get warned. But it’s their site and I’m all for increasing civility.
we're trying our best to deal with the rapidly growing community
with current staffing levels we can’t be in every thread and every moderator has their own limits.
we’re working on adding more moderators from the community and standardizing the rules further. your patience and continued feedback is appreciated
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
No, you are right. Barnett beating Gilbert Yvel really sold me in him being at #2. Just look at how fast Vitor Belfort has moved up the ranks… after beating who?
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re complaining about Barnett at #2 but yet you haven’t offered your opinion of who SHOULD be #2. So if Barnett wasn’t, WHO WAS?
I didn’t I was supposed to be listing the rankings at that time. Sorry. But, if one doesn’t believe that promoter/fan hype doesn’t impact where they are at in the rankings, then that’s just sad.
One reason why people hate on Zuffa and the UFC is because of their hype machine, and getting people to believe how good some fighters are. Example: building Cote up to face Silva. Do you think he didn’t get a bump in the rankings at that time?
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure Cote got a bump from the title shot but Barnett being #2 was not mainly influenced by “Fedro Title Shot”. He was the legit #2
I just don’t think Barnett should’ve moved up that high, due to others losing around him to higher ranked people. He moved up with inactivity and then his win over Yvel granted him the title shot. He is top 10 for sure, but moving up because he’s not fighting? The hype train then was in force to get him at that #2.
I guess this brings up the big question. If you are #2 and you lose to #1, how far do you drop? Does it matter if you get caught (Arvlovski) or get dominated in a decision (Fitch/Alves)?
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Why was he #2? He fought nobody since losing to Nog.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
He fought low ranked opposition and didn’t lose. Randy, Lesnar, Werdum, Arlovski, Gonzaga etc were at least fighting ranked opponents.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Randy is 46 years old and like 16-9. Werdum got uppercutted into unconsciousness. AA too. Gonzaga lost to Old Man. Everyone else was losing.
He’s 1-1 against Nog and 24-2 against people not named Cro Cop. He also beat Monson and Aleks. The best argument would be for Mir since he beat Nog decisively but w.e, the past is the past
For me, fighting and losing against the best is better than not fighting the best and not losing.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Rankings are more about opinions than results sadly. And the people who have been rumored to be Fedro’s opponents got nice big jumps in ranking.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
No they haven't
It’s simply not true. You won’t find any examples of fighters moving up without winning or without someone ahead of them losing (or being dropped for inactivity). You’re making a claim of fact, and it’s provably false.
Read the thread
Or I’ll tell you what. Since you don’t seem to be embarrassed about making claims like that in public with no evidence, you name a guy that you think got an unearned bump, and I’ll do the work for you.
Look at the rankings of Thales Leites over time, he definitely got a push from fighting Silva, and even after the terrible performance still stays highly ranked. Make sure to look at how the individual websites ranked him. Title shots affect rankings.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
As the guy below me pointed out, we were talking about Fedor. However, Leites was ranked 13th before the McFedries fight, didn’t seem to be helped by the win and was ranked ninth before he fought Anderson. A couple of the guys ahead of him lost, but, yes, there was a small bump that isn’t easily explained — maybe one or two spots.
I actually have an easier time believing that something like that could happen to a UFC challenger than a Fedor challenger because of the greater influence and promotional skills of the UFC.
Fair enough, and looking into it HW top 5 is more about not losing than fighting and beating quality opponents. Which I really have a problem with, but rankings are annoying things. They are opinion based and everyone has a different one.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Going through the archives, I see that Cote’s consensus ranking spot when he got his title shot was No. 14. And that was after he beat Almeida.
In case you don’t trust me:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2008/9/23/620157/bloody-elbow-september-mma
I don’t think Cote was ever top 10, but he beat Almeida. That lead to a title shot and should have led to an increase in his ranking. And sure hype can play into a ranking (best example is Velasquez, who might not be top 20 if it weren’t for the hype). The thing is that it’s not like Barnett was getting that much hype.
As Richard might say...
“Barnett’s moving up due to inactivity.” He’s said something to that effect in the past.
by Cannon Jacques on Aug 16, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
actually
the rise of Patrick Cote after getting his title shot is the best example. Better than Barnett who basically watched the division crash around him — the guys who beat him in PRIDE all lost — Big Nog, Cro Cop. And Brock and Fedor cleared out the guys who had been tops in the UFC for the last few years.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
As much as people criticize it, Barnett at #2 made sense at the time; not because of his accomplishments, but rather, because of the rest of the top of the division’s lack thereof at the time (Brock hadn’t beaten Mir yet, Nogueira had just lost to Mir who was practically unranked at the time, etc.). Heavyweight is like that.
lol
One thing I’ve learned from compiling the rankings for the last many months is that hype drives the rankings as much or more as any other factor.
Would be interested in seeing some quantatative analysis — Richard? Fagan? Leland?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
also
I’m not trying to bash those doing rankings, I just think its essentially an impossible task.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You guys can truly have the “rings” version of mma rankings if you would just get the true students of the fight game and create a panel. Not Fanboys but true students of the fightgame. Luke thomas and Jordan Breen types.
i've already debunked the panel argument
its an appeal to authority, a well known logical fallacy.
The truth is that the most knowledgeable mma analysts are generally to busy to really lavish the attention that rankings merit.
the guys who are underheralded but more work into their rankings do just as well.
ranking mma is simply too complicated and has too many variables to ever be an exact science. once you’re in the land of opinion, you’re in the land of opinion and my years in PR and politics has taught me that quantity is the only thing that turns opinion into data.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Indeed, MMA rankings are often very hype driven, the B.E. consensus rankings included. Just take a look at where Cain Velasquez is right now.
Anyway, to respond to something actually in the post, I personally (in my just-for-my-own-amusement rankings) do have Werdum in the top 10, right above Shane Carwin.
I'd love to see that
I tried it myself, and did not find that effect, but maybe someone can take a more thorough approach and turn something up.
Lil nog? Is he signed with Strikeforce? I thought i heard a rumor that he signed with UFC after this Bitetti combat fight.
Sokoudjo would get killed by Mousasi.
by TannerMatthews on Aug 16, 2009 12:55 AM EDT reply actions
Shut Up =(
He’d last till the 2nd round. Then he’d get gassed and subbed.
After the ass whoopin’ that he just handed Babalu you think he would make it past the first round? I have my doubts.
by TannerMatthews on Aug 16, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
You do know Mousasi/Sokodjou are fighting at Dream 11 on 10/06/09 correct?
So it’s not matter of if anyone thinks Soko is worthy or not they are fighting.
One less potential match-up for Strikeforce too.
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Super Hulk
Did they get matched in the super hulk tourney? I hadn’t read that. Thanks for the info.
by TannerMatthews on Aug 16, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
He must really be working on his cardio if he can make it to the second round withought gassing now
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 16, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just cuz he made it to the second doesn’t mean that he wasn’t gassed in the first
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 16, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s really the same problem the UFC has with Anderson Silva. Doesn’t speak English, too good for the division.
But we know what CBS will be able to feature, and it should do well for them — Cyborg-Carano II. The good moments Carano had in that fight provide enough legitimacy to do it again.
The problem may resemble the Silva/Franklin matches more than many would like to believe. As good as Gina’s been, she just didn’t have much for Cyborg tonight. Maybe, she had an off night or she just needs more work which could propel her to a better showing in a rematch. I don’t think this is an immediate rematch situation. It wasn’t really a closely contested bout. I believe this may be a difficult situation, at least in the short-term, for Strikeforce.
by Cannon Jacques on Aug 16, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Same Problem...
Except for the fact that Silva fights members of his own sex.
by Lewish on Aug 16, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Whatever you thought Female MMA “was”… it’s over.
It will never main event a card on a major network again.
You can pretty much kiss CBS goodbye as well. You could hear everything crashing down in Gus Johnson’s voice. They were in such shock they were ignoring the refs call and trying to create a fake controversy to save whatever they had left.
Strikeforce’s fedor problems are just starting and its not only from Zuffa’s side. Finkie is already using his “veto on opponents” power to renegotiate the deal. Every strikeforce fighter that completes his contract on a win has a sweet offer waiting for them on the outside. Melendez, Shields, Rogers, Overeem, thompson etc…
Strikeforce already has to renegotiate deals on contracts they already have in order to find opponents for Fedor.
Not shocking especially after hearing Buentello’s management already talk about him likely signing with the UFC. Buentello was one of 5 credible opponents for him. Now there is 4 (Werdum, Rogers, Overeem, & Monson). One more signing at Heavyweight by the UFC will hurt Strikeforce a lot.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think Ricco is a credible opponent? :-p
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 16, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
He is. If 35 other Heavyweights suddently retired. Then he would be the #1 contender.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the thing i'm wrestling with right now
is my gut feeling that the fighters are the ones getting screwed by the UFC’s attempt to establish a world-wide monopoly on top tier MMA.
Is Vladdy Matyushenko really ready to return to the UFC light heavyweight division?
Phil Baroni? is he really going to be better off at the end of losing two UFC undercard fights?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I’d say Vladdy’s a top 20 light-heavy right now that isn’t getting any younger, so I think he’s ready to be back in the UFC. Baroni on the other hand, other than being entertaining, hasn’t proven at all that he’s ready to be back in the UFC.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 16, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Rogers only has one fight left… notice there has been no announcement of the fedor fight yet – lol.
They will either pony up or let him go… win-win for Zuffa. JUST BLEED.
There are so many variables Striekforce has not calculated. and They based some of their numbers on bad assumptions.
I laughed when Scott Coker made a comment about a week ago when he said something like: “The people ran the numbers and we were comfortable with the Fedor signing”.
I don’t think they calculated the cost of his opponents.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
M-1
I believe the cooperation with m-1 will be another factor and wil backfire on SF. My very personal opinion is that this guys are not good for anyone to work with
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
There are 8 opponents out there for Fedor
Antonio Silva
Ricco Rodriguez
Josh Barnett
Jeff Monsoon
Fabricio Werdum
Brett Rogers
Allistair Overeem
Sergei Kharitonov
And if you really want to push it
Aleksander Emelianenko
Bobby Lashley
Roger Gracie
and the guy who beat him in Sambo
if Blagoi Ivanov or whatever beats Aleks (very big if) he’ll be a challenger for Fedor in no time.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
BEcause he looked so good in his debut.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
can we just pretend for a second that this is a sport like boxing and not pro-wrestling?
IN WHAT WORLD WOULD THESE GUYS BE LEGIT CHALLENGERS TO THE SUPPOSED POUND FOR POUND FIGHTER.
The same guys making the case for Fedors p4p status are justifying these “challenges”… this is ridiculous. Imagine if Mayweather starts fighting the #8, #10, and #15 guy in his weight class and not facing the #2 through #7.
In what media world would this fly save mma?
by mmalogic on Aug 16, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
you guys should not be asking for a more vigorous media environment
the PR stunts that Zuffa is getting away with would not fly in many other sectors — the effort to run down and harass Mousasi for example.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Harrass Mousasi? By exposing the truth? Kid, you are unreal here.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
truth?
what we got was a flurry of self-serving rumors being put out by one side.
It takes more than assertions to constitute a proof.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The response from Mousasi gave a lot of credence to what was leaked and said by Zuffa.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Nate, why would Mousasi admit to calling Joe Silva to find out the UFC’s offer? I think he was skeptical of what his managment was telling him, otherwise why personally make the phone call? The truth may lie somewhere in the middle of all this mess, but I think its almost obvious that M-1 wasn’t completely truthful with Mousasi.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 16, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you realize Mousasi could be held up in court like Brandon Vera was if he says his management lied to him.
if Mousasi could be legally stopped
from fighting, he would already have been.
You can’t make two contradictory assertions.
1) On the one hand, some accounts (pushed by you among others) has M-1 lying to Mousasi by saying the UFC offered $40/40 for GM. Many inferrred that the UFC had offered more.
2) Joe Silva says the UFC wouldn’t offer anything to Mousasi because of his signing with EA.
If 2 is true, than Mousasi’s management overstated the UFC’s offer. There’s no legal case there. In fact taking that case to court would be expensive and self-defeating.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
When did I say he could be stopped? I said he could be held up…
If you had a fight in a weak and Zuffa just sent a cease and desist are you gonna say your managers lied to you and potentially open up a can of worms? or are you going to be a good little boy and complete your fights and move on.
If his management didnt lie why would he call joe silva.
He chose the path of least resistance. At the end of the day what is he going to do? say his managers lied to him and spend time getting out of the situation or complete his fights…
Ricco is a joke of an opponent. Sergei looks so fat now and unmotivated.
Barnett couldn’t get sanctioned in the states. Silva is still unproven, and fights for Sengoku.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I didnt say any of these guys are the best fights
Look I’m not saying any of these guys are great fighters but I think we all agree Fedor in the UFC is probably never gonna happen so these are potential fights.
And 2 none of these fights have to happen in the US both Silva and Barnett are suspended in the US but Fedor’s Strikeforce contract is non-exclusive
Yeah, I think it’s a foregone conclusion that Fedor will be fighting in Japan on New Year’s Eve. His first fight in Strikeforce will likely be a showcase fight…even though I want it to be Bret Rogers.
I wouldnt be suprised if Gina got out of mma
I mean I think she could make more money doing other things but I wonder how many fights she has left on her contract?
We will see.
Playboy? :)
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
its ok she had some toe in the weigh in pics that will do for now haha
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
She had a ton of options after the elite debacle… and she was almost done with fighting but ended up deciding to take a run at it. I think she’s having lots of second thoughts now.
No, you’re making broad generalizations with no factual proof.
WOMEN’S MMA IS FINISHED FOREVER
FEDOR WILL FIGHT BROCK
GINA IS QUITTING MMA
when did I say womans mma is finished forever?
I said I believe this will be Gina’s last fight.
Learn how to read.
1.
Whatever you thought Female MMA "was"… it’s over.
It will never main event a card on a major network again.
2. Your quote implied that Gina would be finished fighting i.e. Quitting the sport
3. Brock is self explanatory
how is that woman mma is finished?
Yeah I believe this will be gina’s last. I explained why I came to that conclusion.
I may be wrong about Brock being Fedors first fight… But i still guarantee his next fight will be in a zuffa production.
Let me get this right, you are still garunteeing that Fedors next fight will be in the UFC, or a “Zuffa production”? I know this is totally off topic for your current convo, but that boggles my mind.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa production = a closed door’s fight produced by the UFC against Machida? Silva?
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he’s referring to Female MMA being the main event and carrying the fight card? I don’t know, just a guess…
by MMAWrestling on Aug 16, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions
exactly…
I was reffering to the article where Kid Nate is assuming Cyborg will be carrying the mantle where Gina left off.
There will always be a niche for female MMA .
and what happens if another hot female MMA athlete emerges? Maybe this is the last for Strikeforce but the future is never set in stone. Hell, they could even push a Gina-Cyborg rematch if Gina wants it.
That’s the problem. Women’s MMA will always be about looks. And an ugly female can always be champion. That means Women’s MMA is too unreliable to carry a company. At least the way Strikeforce promotes it, where they build up fighters against overmatched, undersized opponents.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Why does female MMA have to be “always about looks?” It’s not that way in tennis: even though hot tennis players do get coverage disproportionate to their skill level, the best still get exposure as the best, and lauded for their accomplishments.
But I’ll say this: Strikeforce benefits from not being a PPV-based product, because ALL of its fighters — but especially the female ones — can benefit from TV exposure, and having to introduce fans to so many new faces (especially female ones) while simultaneously having to sell them as PPV draws would be an onerous task.
Let me ask you a question… if you could go back in time would you make gina versus cyborg the main event on showtime?
If you answer this correctly you’ll see why female MMA will not main event on a major network/show again.
Before the injuries, both Overeem/Werdum & Thomson/Melendez were better main events.
Strikeforce has created the same error as EliteXC. Put the sideshow above the pure talent. Not only does that make your pure talent mad, it also undermines what the end goal is…. Which is building up a MIXED MARTIAL ARTS EVENT.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
From a business point of view, I don’t think either of those fights would have sole more. Better fights? Yeah…better sales, hype, and entertainment? No.
The selling point for Gina/Cyborg was that history was being made, not anyones looks. This was the best main event they could put together period. Especially if they want big enough ratings to get on CBS.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
What type of attention is it getting Strikeforce? MMA fan attention? Not really. It’s like building a house on a bad foundation. It’s going to crumble eventually.
Carano/Cyborg gets quick attention but not the right kind. They need to start building up the fighters who will really be the foundation and future of their division. Which are the men’s champions.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Just curious: Of the title matches on this card, which remained consistent since the show was announced?
1. Josh Thomson vs. Gilbert Melendez
2. Alistair Overeem vs. Fabricio Werdum
3. Nick Diaz vs. Joe Riggs
4. Gina Carano vs. Cris “Cyborg” Santos
Undercards can ebb and flow, but when a main event changes, it hurts your promotion’s credibility. Obviously some things are unavoidable, but if ANY of those matches were atop the card, promoting the event would be a logistical nightmare. Carano-Cyborg was a year in the making, built up on FreeTV, and the winner, whether we like it or not, would be seen as the cornerstone of women’s mixed martial arts in this country. These are huge stakes, and worthy of our attention. Whatever the men’s championship matches were, they weren’t that.
Its one thing to plan a main event 3 months out and another to put one together a few weeks out due to injuries… They planned this main event 4 months out.
Cyborg will be the face of women's mma for the time being
for better or worse for women’s mma.
i didn’t say she’d match the success of Gina as a draw. In fact I explicitly pointed out the opposite.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not as pretty, but definitely scary.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Say what you will about Cyborg, but her dominating presence and performance makes me want to see her fight again, soon.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
When you get hit in the face, reality hits (literally). I think the same thing happened with the former Mrs. Couture.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 16, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
From Cofield:
Cyborg was slightly ahead in the round when she got the fight to the ground with less than 20 seconds left.
What that before the “guillotine” choke or after Cyborg “tasted Carano’s power”?
What a joke. That round was 10-8 in my opinion. I would give credit to her getting mount, but dude, she gave it up with the quickness.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Mainstream Press!
Cyborg’s win made the front page of both ESPN and Sports Illustrated!
Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 16, 2009 1:31 AM EDT reply actions
thats not exactly that big a deal Brock face was all over it for about a week after UFC 100.
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/7/10/944465/brock-lesnar-the-ufc-and-mma-on
see the difference?
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
The major outlets are covering a fight that’s not in the UFC – why do you want to piss on the parade?
Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Aug 16, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
My Thoughs...
Good night of fights.
Gilbert fought well, but you can’t say a whole lot about the win, Ishida wasn’t fully prepared. Not taking anything away from Gil, he fought great, and dominated. I really had to applaud Melendez when Ishida had a knee down and was waiting to come up, but risk taking a knee from Melendez, and instead of going for the obvious move, switched it up and landed the double leg when Ishida was popping up real fast. This shows me that Gilbert really thinks on his feet, and thats a great quality to have.
Mousasi…I was a doubter. But he anhilliated Babalu. I’d love to see him in the UFC. Not alot to say, his fans saw it coming and the haters have been silenced. Bravo Gegard.
Now, Cyborg taking the fight in the first round. That was my pick for how the fight would go, but I expected Gina to look alot better. She looked nervous, and overwhelmed. Who knows what caused that, but the fact is, it happened, and it happened during the biggest fight of her career. The most boggling occurence in this fight was Gina giving up mount, when looking dominant and landing shots. We all make mistakes, but most of us have the blessing of it not being on television and in front of 13,000 people. We get to see if Gina will bounce back, or if she leaves MMA for various other markets. I’d love to see her stick around, win a fight or two, then have the rematch on CBS.
I can’t say how I really felt the pacing and such was for the show, because I missed the first fight, but the rest was pretty good. Was disappointed with the announcing in the Gina fight though…biases happen, but at least try to hide it.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
My thoughs
unless Strikeforce can make Fedor a draw there fucked.
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
by pitbull187 on Aug 16, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Glad you mentioned that. The Fedor promo gave me goosebumps, if they keep it up, they could be on to something.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Fedor has more people pushing him now than ever if he cant make a impact now he never will….outside of the ufc hype machine of course. Just gotta convince people the guys he fights are worth carrying about
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
I think Strikeforce will be able to promote Fedor well enough, and lucky for them, his opponents won’t be as formidable as they would have been in the UFC, lessening the chances of a doomsday scenario where Fedor somehow loses and Strikeforce is left with damaged goods.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
he wasn't suspended
because his license was expired. my understanding of the California procedures is that he won’t be able to reapply for one year. Whether other states will have to observe that moratorium on licensing Diaz is unclear to me.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I think the year thing only applies if he fails his test…that’s the whole “loophole” situation that people spoke of. This situation is more akin to when a fighter pulls out due to injury.
Diaz proudly proclaims he can beat any test given enough time. CSAC didn’t give him enough time, but other than that bent over backwards giving him chance after chance to take the test. He no showed. If they don’t outright prevent him I foresee a lot of paperwork accidents in his future.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Other story not mentioned.
For the second time in a row, Jay Heiron has to leave the arena and explain to his sponsors why he wasn’t on TV.
It was a good night of fights, but it’s disappointing to everyone that we didn’t get what was promised. it was nice that he got to fight at all this weekend after everything, but I wish he could get a fight scheduled, fought, and aired the way it was promised from the beginning. The guy has been through enough shit over the last 2 years.
this is a very good point
and he’s one fighter I really can see the UFC black balling over the EA Game.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I’m not sure if he’d be totally blackballed though.
True, he isn’t really good enough to get an exception on his own. But if he and Randy go up to dana and beg after his current contract ends, i could see something happening.
except one thing
after Affliction imploded, Jay couldn’t sign with the UFC because of his EA deal. He’ll have to go undefeated in Strikeforce to have any chance of signing with the UFC.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I really don’t think it was impossible to sign, I think Randy could have pulled some strings if they really wanted to do it. he also said the fact that the Strikeforce fight was a title fight was a reason (ouch).
Either way, next time a mid-tier fighter is in negotiations with Zuffa, the name Jay Hieron is going to come up. He said after the fight that he doesn’t feel that Strikeforce has been honest with him 100% also.
Yes, some people may not like the things in Zuffa’s contract, but sometimes it’s worth it, just so you don’t have to deal with all the BS that seems to follow every org that isn’t run by Zuffa.
I think that unless you have massive star power, the video game agreement is standard UFC contract material now. He cannot sign that, so they won’t sign him. Once he can sign the agreement, then they will sign him. Seems kinda sucky, but fairly simple reasoning to me.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
The new facet of women's mma is a man's face....
Sorry – this spectacle was a pure nonsense. Man beating a woman – this is how it looks like. And for Carano’s future – I bet she’ll resign of her career, before her nose is flat like mike tyson’s and has loads of scar tissue around her eyes, deformed annkles etc. I’ll never watch women’s mma again, same as I’ll never watch women’s boxing or weight liftin. It’s biologically clear that to be more effective you need to have more testosterone, which is attibuted to a men. Therefore the most effective mma women’s fighters will have a looks of a man, and will have to shave their chests before fights. It’s simply against the nature. Of course this fight was exciting, but technically – you’d easily say the diffirence between this and men’s match – slower, more windmills, chaotic, yet exciting. They’re not man enough yet – but I believe will work on it dilligently and become more men, to the point where there will be no difference. I suggest sex change operation – and attaching real balls producing testosterone. Embarassing
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions
Thank you for your contribution. Sometimes it’s important to illustrate that not everyone looks at these the sport thoughtfully. Hopefully the lessons of the late 20th Century reach your consciousness soon.
you did not understand one bit of what I wrote
And if you do – what womam will be on top of the women’s mma and why? Is the agression related to the level of testosterone? And which sex has more of it? and why? by mistake?
I never ever said it was not exciting – because it was. Man won with a woman, and if Gina want’s a rematch, she’d better get some shot’s of testosterone right in her pretty ass, otherwise she’ll be bitten by more man-looking women.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
1. Aggression alone doesn’t determine who wins a mixed-martial arts contest. Physical gifts, combined with skill and technique does. That’s why bigger, stronger MEN often lose to smaller men who are either faster, more precise, or more technically gifted…sometimes all through. Quick question: who was the more “manly” looking between Forrest Griffin and Anderson Silva? And yet, what was the outcome?
2. Cristiane Santos is not a man, and I find your blanket assertion that she is both offensive and defamatory. You might think that she looks “manly,” and that is your right, but you take it too far.
3. Don’t advocate that a fighter take steroids to compete. First of all, many fighters have tested positive for steroids, and still LOST the fight. Secondly, it doesn’t help the cause of women’s MMA to have one of its highest-profile stars involved with PEDs.
4. Say No to misogyny. I don’t know whether you have a girlfriend/wife/significant other of the opposite sex, or whether you even LIKE women. But even if you prefer the sexual company of the males of our species, the answer isn’t to denigrate the female form and advocate that they become men so that they can entertain you; it’s too see past the testicles that you seem so fixated upon, and watch WOMEN hone their combative craft against WOMEN. If you feel they are technically deficient, use your critical eye to discern and discuss where those deficiencies are, and how hey may be corrected, rather than advocate for testosterone to be the cure-all elixir. To do otherwise makes you look ignorant.
my god....another one
1/ nope – but for some reason strenght and speed might be some advantage. If you think that testosterone is responsible only for the brute strenght you’re mistaken. It’s speed and stamina too. So assuming that the level of skills is the same, the bigger will win. BTW Silva is much quicker and punch resistant than Griffin, so what’s the point? they’re both men with smashed faces. And why you’re trying to insinueate that the bigger man must neccessarily be more aggresive?
2/ yes Cristianes Santos is not a man, but is becoming remiscent of a man, probably because she’s a wide face, wide nose, and wide muscular shoulders, a lot of scars, tatoos etc. Probably the reaon is she’s getting hit in the face a lot. If she likes it – no problem. But I don’t watch it – leave it to the man who are excited about watching women beating shit out of each other:) I mean – guys like you…. I’m not advocating prohibiting women’s fights, I just say it’s a nonsese which i don’t like to and never will watch.
3 /I never implied that she’s on roids (meaning injections from the outside. you probably don’t know it – because why should you – that testostorone is produced by males testes and in smaller quantities by women’s ovaries NATURALLY. But mr god was is probably and advocate of misogyny just like me, because for some reason he gave balls to men:))!) What I said was: “Is the agression related to the level of testosterone”. I’m wondering what made you think that testosterone = steroids? OR it’s all the same in your mind? To clarify. Bilogogically men is equipped with higher testosterone levels, because his BALLS are producing it. Womens
And yes I like women – that’s why I don’t like watching them destroying each other’s faces. This is some kind of new form of femisnism/equality ? Cool – you can watch with your tongue sticking out, as women are ’honing their skills against other women":)
wow – i don’t know why I’m even replying ? it must be addictive or something.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
If testosterone is responsible for strength, speed, and stamina, that would explain why top female tennis players are so masculine-looking. Just look at the Williams sisters and Maria Sharapova… wait, no, hmmm… OK, famous female swimmers like Amanda Beard and Dara Torres… wait, no, fuck… well obviously in MMA it applies, just like at Megumi Fuji! Wait, shit!
I’m sure female MMA will really miss you as a viewer, UniversalSoul. In the mean time, please take your half-baked gender essentialism elsewhere.
It’s biologically clear that to be more effective you need to have more testosterone, which is attibuted to [men]. Therefore the most effective mma women’s fighters will have a looks of a man, and will have to shave their chests before fights.
what [woman] will be on top of the women’s mma and why? Is the [aggression] related to the level of testosterone? And which sex has more of it?
Those two quotes illustrate that you think “testosterone” and “aggression” dictate who wins MMA contests…which, of course, is patently ridiculous. Doesn’t happen for the men, and doesn’t happen for the women. Are you attempting to argue something else now?
…and if Gina [wants] a rematch, she’d better get some [shots] of testosterone right in her pretty ass, otherwise she’ll be [beaten] by more man-looking women.
Would you like to clarify how that’s NOT advocating that Gina take PEDs?
it’s advocating for Gina to do something else – because she’ll be beaten time and again.
coming back to testosterone – I never said it’s the only factor – there is mental game, technique etc. But it won’t change the fact that the most aggressive with equal qucikness and technique will take over. Big athletic girls with manly looks… quite honestly your trying to go to deep on some levels and to shallows on other. From my side – I might have been chaotic in voicing my opinion and went too far. I do not think anyone should take shots of roids and I don’t like girls fight. If you like – that’s ok. I love women and if my loved one would like to be a mma fighter I’d try to convince her not to… but if she’d still chose to do so – I’d support her….
My point of view is coming from a very deep belief that women are on this earth for different purposes than man and usually were taking care of agriculture while men were hunting in the woods. So that’s why we are equipped with higher levels of testosterone – steroid responsible for aggresion, strenght and stamina.
I voiced my opinion but I see it went too far – sorry. I simply hat to see women hit in the face, kicked etc and I don’t think they should fight, but if they want – so be it. I simply won’t watch it.
At the same time there are some attributes of men, that some women have – and unfortunately or fortunately, women with such attributes and looks will start taking over (happens not only in mma – even if you look at pro-tennis, you have huge, muscular women dominatiion, with some exeptions. Weight lifting and other sports related to strenght are totally dominated by muscular women) – this is inevitable for mma in my opinion…
I go now. take care
Ps. will try to be more diplomatic next time or restrain from commenting women’s mma
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The only thing you should be embarrassed about is your point of view. Those women fought better than I’d say, 80% of the minor league men. Gina performed bad, but she’s shown brilliance in the cage before. And no, it didn’t look like a “man beating a woman”, it looked like a better, more athletic woman, beating a cute woman who was nervous and rusty.
You make me want to punch a small furry animal. Thank you.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 16, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
go for it.
I never said that their fight wasn’t exciting. What I said is that the better they want to become, the more man-like they’ll have to look. Amen. If you disagree you can. The same about biological reasons . of course it’s completetly not related to the nature of things, and testosterone has nothing to do with that. I wish you will watch many man-looking girls fighting each other in the future if that’s what you want. If we have a total equality – let them fight man, why not? They look similar, so there is no reason why not to
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
This is an MMA blog, if you want to talk beauty there are plenty of places. If you want to see gracious chicks doing girly stuffs there are plenty of places. If you want to see MMA, this is place. You’re obviously not talking about MMA. You’re obsessed with how they SHOULD look.
You don't look like a Tanaka.
I agree
Female fighters should only be good looking. They should never be judged on their ability, athleticism, determination, talent or skills. They should be judged solely on their appearance.
("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)
actually I said something completely opposite
Carano should resign or think seriously about changing more to a man. :) And I’m ok with cyborg fighting because she already looks like a man – so what’s the diffrence. She’ll probably run out of competiton so they should move her to men’s division, or use some more hormonal therapy to complete the transformation.
by UniversalSoul on Aug 16, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t it some kind of fighter-bashing to imply that a female fighter is a man, or that she has undergone hormone therapy to increase her testosterone levels?
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