Looking Back at MMA Champions Like Anderson Silva
by Kid Nate on Aug 12, 2009 5:02 PM EDT
in News
98 comments
Jordan Breen has a very good piece on Anderson Silva's career today. He discusses Silva's largely forgotten accomplishments as a welterweight, the UFC's failed attempts to sign him to challenge Carlos Newton for the UFC welterweight belt at UFC 34, and Silva's embarrassing losses. But most importantly, he discusses a phenomenon all too often overlooked, the importance of timing in evaluating a fighter's wins:
In prizefighting, all wins are imbued with a temporal quality: The notion of "when" matters. For instance, Ricardo Arona beating Wanderlei Silva in 2005 is of far more merit than Vitor Belfort's or Rich Franklin's wins over The Axe Murderer. Dennis Hallman's wins over Matt Hughes, or even Thiago Alves' win over Hughes, are not on the level of Penn's triumph over a pound-for-pound stalwart Hughes in 2004. Beating individuals in their moment of greatness is what counts.
Many of Silva's greatest wins have come against opponents who were not just great for that moment but sustained greatness for much longer. Sakurai, Franklin, Nate Marquardt, Dan Henderson and even Jeremy Horn, who has become driftwood in the last two years, all continued to prosper as fighters following their losses to Silva. You may not find that especially gripping, but it's more unusual than you'd imagine.
When you look at lists of title challengers in the Zuffa era of the UFC, it is littered with fighters who rightfully earned their way to a title shot but failed to sustain any measure of greatness, from Carlos Newton to Gil Castillo to David Terrell to David Loiseau to Gan McGee to Thales Leites. If you were explaining a fighter's accomplishments to a neophyte, you would qualify the wins by saying "Well, he was a great fighter at the time." Many of the names that Silva has put on his docket speak for themselves in a way that is still exceedingly rare for MMA.
All too often when we get into discussions of fighters' careers, a weird form of revisionist history is applied. Fans will hear of a fighter from the old days, (say Carlos Newton or Dave Menne) head on over to Fight Finder and see a bunch of losses on their record and then conclude that the guy was never any good.
More recently we've seen it with wholesale attempts to dismiss the value of Fedor Emelianenko's wins over Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovski. As if suffering a massive defeat to the top fighter in the world and the subsequent depression and self-doubt has no impact. In Sylvia's case there was a clear failure to train for the Mercer fight as well.
MMA is far too difficult a game to evaluate a fighter based on their performances over a wide span of time. To win at the highest levels of MMA requires that an athlete be on top of their game both physically and mentally. When circumstances change -- be it a dramatic fall off in motivation to train, nagging injuries, drug or alcohol abuse, bad luck -- fighters who were performing at an elite level can suddenly find themselves reduced to mediocrity. That doesn't suddenly mean they weren't formidable when they were on their game.
The only way to evaluate the quality of a fighter's wins is to look at how his opponents were rated at the time. Keep the revisionist history out of it.
Photo by the great Susumu
3 recs |
98 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
This reminds me of the great couple of pieces from March about putting older fights and fighers in perspective (fallout from people claiming that Randy Couture isn’t that good…). It’s refreshing and also necessary. Some sports with longer histories do a better job of keeping perspective; for example, most hockey fans will admit that Rocket Richard was one of the greatest to ever play the game even though his scoring by contemporary standards – only one 50 goal season, and a single season high of 74 points – would probably wouldn’t qualify him for the Hall of Fame. Silva has sustained a level of excellence that is almost unbelievable given how much the sport and the fighters have changed.
I rewatched his fight with Alex Stiebling (Pride 21, 2002) recently, and it really brought home two points. First, though Stiebling is viewed as a legit-but-not-top fighter now, at the time he was being built up as one of the better young fighters in Pride, a real up and comer. Not only did Anderson beat him, but – and this is the second point – he blasted him with a high kick out of nowhere that was jaw dropping… and still would be today. That Silva is even MORE dominant at 34 than he was at 27 should give pause.
Great piece, Nate.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Aug 12, 2009 5:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’ll do a few more of those soon.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 12, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jordan Breen
Often irritates me with his articles, but I thought this was spot on. It’s frustrating to see people take fighters wins and losses out of context.
by VegasBatman on Aug 12, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great piece. Chuck and Hughes were monsters during their reign. Tito was the same. But it is always the flavor of the month when it comes to fighters/movies/actors/athletes. We are a “what are you doing NOW” society.
In baseball Pujols is a beast, but I still consider Musial the greatest living player. It is easy to discredit Torres or any other fighter who loses. The years of going undefeated against good opponents is what should be inspected. Rec’d
by Riney on Aug 12, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that torres’s recent loss is going to be his “serra”-like moment in a year, because I honestly believe that miguel started believing he was superman and indestructible.. Its a scary thought that he is goin to come back even hungrier because he is one vicious m’effer in the cage
by amadeus on Aug 12, 2009 6:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I looooove Stan Musial but Barry Bonds and Willie Mays are both alive and well.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Aug 12, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, his is far ahead.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Aug 12, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m a Padres fan and I’ll readily admit this
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same here. That asshole was an incredible ballplayer.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Aug 12, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yea, huge d-bag, but boy could he play ball
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had no clue...
Eight years ago, he rolled into Osaka and took the Shooto world 168-pound title from Hayato “Mach” Sakurai, who was widely seen as the sport’s top pound-for-pound fighter at the time.
In fact, on the back of that victory, Silva was actually slated to make his UFC debut at UFC 34 to face then-champ Carlos Newton. The exclusive deal that Zuffa wanted for Silva didn’t jive with “The Spider,” though, or his Chute Boxe handlers, who wanted to keep doors to Pride and Meca Vale Tudo open. Just think how radically different history might be if Silva got into the Octagon in ‘01 and Matt Hughes didn’t unconsciously powerbomb his way to glory. Maybe there’s a Marvel Comics-style “What If?” concept brewing.
I knew Mach was considered a great fighter but never did I ever think that he was at that level.
by Tonley on Aug 12, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"Mach" Sakurai
Silva was the first fighter to defeat the then undefeated Sakurai (18-0-2)
Daily MMA Drawings starts Aug 10th!
http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 12, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great article, and I really liked Jordan Breen’s piece. You need to get back on the Jordan Breen show and talk about the history of MMA once again. That was really good stuff, especially as a fan who never saw some of the older fights and didn’t understand the significance of them. Nowadays MMA fans are more like “what have you done for me lately”, and it’s nice to look back on fights and remember what made them important.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 12, 2009 5:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll make sure Breen sees this!
thanks
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Aug 12, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This has been my point on Fedor for a while. He isn’t beating guys when they are on top. He is beating them on their way down. Sylvia was 1-2 in his last 3 fights coming into the Fedor fight.
Guys like Anderson Silva and GSP are beating guys at their very best.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 12, 2009 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like Kid Nate said, stop revising history.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 12, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought Arlovski’s peak was really more ‘03-’05 and Sylvia’s really only ’05 & ’06.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Aug 12, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 12, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being top 5 is still at the top.
=)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 12, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the issue is that top 5 was questionable for those fighters at that time. I don’t see it as much with AA. While I don’t think he merited a #2 rank he certainly still looked in his prime, where Tim hadn’t looked good in like… forever.
by VegasBatman on Aug 12, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have not revised history. Sylvia was 1-2 going into his fight with Fedor. That is looking at the facts.
He was not Top 5 at the time. Arlovski, while having compiled solid wins, had no wins against a top 5 guy, and had no business being #2 at the time. Heck, he had no business being Top 5. Only the internet MMA fans could possibly think that beating non-Top 10 guys gets you into the Top 5.
Fedor never fought Cro Cop after he won the Grand Prix. Never fought Barnett in Pride. Never fought Couture at his peak. Never fought Sylvia or Arlovski at their peak.
That’s not revising history. It’s looking at the facts and not drooling over Fedor when he doesn’t deserve it.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 12, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fedor never fought Cro Cop after he won the Grand Prix.
Arguments like this is where your arguments show their flaws. Fedor beat Cro Cop and Nog at their peaks, when they were thought to be unbeatable.
When Cro Cop won the GP, he was considering retirement and beat a blown up MW, Wandy, for the belt.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 12, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He beat Nogueira at his peak. I would never deny that. Cro Cop definitively improved from their first fight.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 12, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Fedor is a great fighter let’s just get that put there. Supremacy might not like this but fedor aint all he is made out to be.
Fedor out kick boxed mirko and demolished nog in nogs guard. So yes Fedor has shown his greatness.
However since the demise of pride I consider Fedor a top 3-8 heavyweight. But he is number one because people are to scared to take him off without losing legitimacy and the truth is only the hardcore fans really even care about him. I bet If you should a casual fan a top 10 hw list he knows 7 or 8 and he probably doesn’t know Fedor other then oh well I have heard his name before.
I regard him as a legend of the sport but his win over Tim should not be held with high regard. Nor his wins vs lindland or choi. Arlovski is a good win not great either. And his next 3 fights really aren’t too relevent either. Basically Fedor is still my number 4 hw at the current time
"What do you want from me?..... A Slap?"
by xtremecouture on Aug 12, 2009 7:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I’d love to know who you have at 1-3 and why you have them there.
by FRANKIE on Aug 12, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would?
I can answer for him. Brock and whoever is getting the most hype from the UFC this week. And the reason is that they are promoted by the UFC and are therefore inherently better than anyone with a different promoter.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right
Maybe he’s actually got an argument though. I don’t see it myself, but if it’s there I’d like to.
by FRANKIE on Aug 12, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your argument fails to mention that many people thought Timmy was the guy to beat Fedor because of his size and his skill. He WAS the UFC HW for a while until Randy was able to keep him on the ground for 5 rounds.
A fighters “peak” is quite debatable as fighters go through highs and lows throughout their careers, and it’s not always easy to pin point. Using rankings is one way to do this, but people piss and moan when you bring up rankings and the HW class.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 12, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being 1-2 in your last 3 fights…. Makes it pretty darn obvious he wasn’t at his peak. doesn’t mean he couldn’t have peaked again, but he certainly wasn’t at the peak of his career when he fought Fedor.
I agree the peaks are sometimes hard to determine until afterwards…. But even before that fight, anybody with a half of brain could see Sylvia wasn’t the Sylvia from even 2 years prior.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 12, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. The two fights he lost were to Nogueira and Couture.
2. You’re cherry picking. I could just as easily say he was 6-2 in his last 8.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Aug 12, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That’s true Mike but I think you would have to agree considering his showing in that fight and against Mercer that he is definitely on the downside of his career and that slide started with the L against Couture.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 12, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was putting a beatdown on Big Nog
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Aug 13, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. You can also say:
Arlovski had won 11 out of his last 13 fights, only losing to Timmy twice in that span before losing to Fedor.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Aug 12, 2009 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And not mention he book ended that portion of his career by being knocked out in back to back fights.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So i bring up his last year of competition before fighting Fedor, and that is cherry picking? That’s funny.
It’s very different to a fight a guy who is coming off 6 victories (when Couture beat him), and when a guy is coming off a 1-2 record (when Fedor beat him).
And all of these debates would be completely, 100%, without question….. A non-factor if Fedor signed with the UFC. He continues to avoid the top guys while they are on top.
GSP beat Matt Hughes when he was champion. Beat Jon Fitch when he was without question the #1 contender. Beat Thiago Alves when he was without question the #1 contender. There is ZERP debate about GSP’s track record. Why? Because he fought the best when they were at his best.
Fedor has not done this. And when he had a chance to do this, he signed with an organization that has really just ONE Top 10 Heavyweight, and no guys in the Top 5.
I understand people ranking him #1, because there is a sense that until you beat the man, you aren’t the man. But when that man (Fedor), continues to avoid the true #1 Contenders of the division, eventually people have to smarten up and demote him for not fighting the very best at their peak.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Aug 12, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think you meant to reply to Fagan
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, my points go hand in hand though.
The first criticism is that you’re treating all “1-2 records” as being equal. They’re not. Going 1-2 against Vera, Couture, and Nogueira is different than the same record against McCully, Hardonk, and Sanchez.
With that said, you’re cherry picking because you’re taking the worst possible permutation of his past fights and presenting that as evidence. You say you took his last year of competition, but if you took it from the time of the fight, he would only be 1-1. That was my point about him being 6-2 in his last eight.
Now, certainly, fighting Sylvia if he had beaten Nogueira and Couture would have been much more impressive for Fedor. Still, he lost to two top ten guys, and there’s going to be a lot of variance at that level. Hell, he was dominating Nogueira until he got subbed. I think it’s a bit ingenuous to use a “1-2 record” as a talking point without putting it into some context.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Aug 12, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really think Sylvia was on the downslope of his career when he fought Fedor, but Arlovski was definitely riding a bit of an upswing, though I still don’t think he was at his peak. Perhaps he was, though, and he has just fought tougher competition in this part of his career and has looked less impressive because of it.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Aug 12, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah Fedor was fighting guys in 09 who were good in 05… Now he wants to fight journeymen because he ran out of those and today’s top HW’s are too damn scary.
by mmalogic on Aug 12, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was by far the best article I’ve ever read on Sherdog. Well done.
by MMAEruption on Aug 12, 2009 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that breen’s piece was a great editorial but I think nate eschewed it by taking a lesser point from its text. I also enjoy champions who love to challenge themselves and earn their crown instead of hiding behind a company to keep their legacy intact. I love that silva wants the best to fight the best. I think someone who’s often overlooked in this vein is bj, because of his losses at higher weights… At least he’s been challenging himself. I’m not a penn fan, but he’s certainly put together a who’s who of opponents at any weight class
by amadeus on Aug 12, 2009 5:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure
For a while Filho was considered the No. 2 MW, and Silva wouldn’t fight him because they are friends. Now, he won’t fight Machida for the same reason, and he can’t fight Mousasi because they have different promoters. It’s not his fault, necessarily, but Silva has not been taking the best possible challenges for a while.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YOu're Kidding me
Filho was in another promotion, plus he’s has real issues.
Last time I checked Lindland and Dan Henderson were the names of real contenders that could really challenge Silva on paper.
“but Silva has not been taking the best possible challenges for a while.”
. . . name the last champion or UFC champion that went up in weight to fight a credible top-10 fighter AND former champion.
Daily MMA Drawings starts Aug 10th!
http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 12, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Henderson
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and just like machida
filho didn’t want to fight him either.
by yngjzy on Aug 12, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what?
I said I wasn’t blaming him. It’s just a fact that he hasn’t been facing top competition.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Let’s say it’s a fact that he hasn’t been facing highly rated competition.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sir
are nuts.
Nate the great, Hendo, Franklin, Forrest are ALL top competition. forrest was having his first fight since losing the LHW TITLE!
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Aug 13, 2009 6:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh
Yeah, I was referring specifically to Cote, Leites, and Irvin, though Forrest is kind of meh. Hendo and Franklin were certainly top competition, despite Hendo’s age.
by yarky1 on Aug 13, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then you’re delusional. Forrest was JUST the LHW champion, Cote and Leites were both top 10 when Anderson fought them. The only “eh” competition was Irvin, but it was a test to see him at 205 so it shouldn’t count against him either.
I can’t tell if you’re a hater or simply impossible to please.
by VegasBatman on Aug 13, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see
Wanting to see Silva s against top opponents (because I think he’s a great fighter) makes me a “hater,” and not thinking that Leites (who just got cut) and Cote (not top-10) are worthy opponents for Silva makes me “delusional.”
It’s sad how low the level of discourse is around here…
by yarky1 on Aug 13, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that people like you instantly downgrade a fighter once they've been beaten.
Making it impossible for someone like Anderson to have ever faced competent competition.
by Razreshat on Aug 13, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cote and Leites were both top 10 when he fought them and he had already cleared out the guys above them for the most part. What more can you ask than the champion fight top 10 guys?
Had that been your only argument I wouldn’t think you were delusional, just wrong. When you throw Forrest in that same boat, that’s when it’s clear you’re off your nut.
by VegasBatman on Aug 13, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not so
Cote wasn’t top 10, and Leites was borderline. Forrest was, but he’s not very good.
And for the thousandth time, I’m not blaming Silva. It just sucks that a fighter of his caliber is stuck facing guys like Irvin, Cote, Leites, and Griffin.
by yarky1 on Aug 13, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cote and Leites were both top 10 and Forrest was top 5 in a division ABOVE Silvas regular fighting weight. What would be good enough for you? Seriously?
by VegasBatman on Aug 13, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I can see that it really offends you that I want to see Silva facing real competition. I’ll try to watch it. And no, Cote was not top 10.
by yarky1 on Aug 13, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
And here’s a list (in no particular order) of guys I’d rather have seen Silva fight than Irvin, Cote, Leites, and Griffin:
Machida
Mousasi
Rampage
Filho
Manhoef
Maia
Souza
Vera
And, yes, I’m aware that it’s not Silva’s fault that those fights haven’t happened.
by yarky1 on Aug 13, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re bitching about Silva not fighting top ranked guys but you have Melvin, Souza and Vera on your list… You have Rampage, a guy Forrest beat.
If you can’t see why your demands aren’t very consistent with reality then nothing I can say will help you.
by VegasBatman on Aug 13, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What demands?
I’m not in a position to make any demands. I’m a fan. Those are fights I want to see, fights that will challenge Silva. Agreed that Souza, Vera, Maia, and MM are not that highly ranked, but those are all fights that for various reasons would be far more compelling than the ones Silva has actually had. Plus, I was trying to be generous. If I limited the list to the very best possible opponents, it would be shorter, but there’s a long list of guys who would be more compelling opponents than Cote, Leites, Irvin, and (to a lesser extent) Forrest.
And if you honestly think that Forrest is more of a challenge than Rampage just because he got a decision over him, I don’t know what to tell you.
by yarky1 on Aug 13, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
From a fan standpoint I hate that silva won’t ever fight machida, but from his perspective even the thought must be ridiculous. He’d be fighting another seemingly indestructible fighter with a knack for gameplanning who trains with him daily so therefore knows all of his timing, movements, and also any possible weaknesses. In the situation of quick, kos, and fitch I would see it differently because they’re all struggling to get to the top and stand in each others way, but machida and silva have owned their respective divisions and haven’t a single thing to gain from fighting one another.
by amadeus on Aug 12, 2009 6:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
How is that any different than the AKA troika (Fitch-Kos-Swick) not wanting to fight one another? Every fighter has friends/training partners that he will not fight. Fedor won’t fight his brother, the original Team Quest guys wouldn’t fight one another, the old school Chute Boxe guys wouldn’t fight one another, the Jackson’s guys won’t fight one another, Miletich guys won’t fight one another, and the list goes on and on.
There is nothing unusual about Anderson having a couple of guys that he doesn’t want to fight.
by Steve4192 on Aug 12, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my issue
With the aka trio is that they’re essentially locking themself up because they’re all top contenders in the same division in the same org, whereas silva and machida fight at different weights and filho isn’t a ufc fighter. Kos swick and fitch staying in the same camp is a detriment to their career.
Diego sanchez originally left jacksons camp because they brought gsp in and he felt betrayed.. I agree with him, mma isn’t a team sport except in japan and these guys are only hurting themselves
by amadeus on Aug 12, 2009 6:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
There is something unusual
About the level of competition he’s been facing. His last four opponents have been Forrest Griffin, Thales Leites, Patrick Cote, and James Irvin. That’s just unacceptable for a supposed top fighter, even if it isn’t his fault. Blame the UFC, if you want, but as fans, we should demand that elite fighters face better competition than that.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could also blame the structure of MMA. Whatever. I just think that top fighters should face top competition. If that offends people, I’m sorry.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other than Okami who was injured multiple times what were the better options at MW?
And as far as Irvin goes that was a last minute fight in a different weight class against a very dangerous striker. It was a big deal when it happened.
As for Forrest, say what you want about him but the guy is a legit LHW title contender who held the belt less than a year ago.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said, I understand the situation, but that doesn’t mean I like it.
by yarky1 on Aug 12, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest I don’t like it either but I felt like the Forrest fight was a huge step in the right direction.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What an idiot. The best possible fights anderson has missed out on arguably is okami. But its nobodys fault okami tends to get hurt often. Anderson has cleaned out every challenger possible.
Rich Franklin twice while rich was the king of the mws, lutter when he was still considered a real threat, Nate when he was at the top of his game although he has seemed to be ready to peak out again, hendo when everyone thought he was the biggest test for him, cote riding his win streak and athletic peak and leites when basically with timing and etc was the only real contender he could have fought.
But to say he hasn’t fought best possible is very very stupid
"What do you want from me?..... A Slap?"
by xtremecouture on Aug 12, 2009 7:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Even Leban was closing on a title shot
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Aug 12, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not even undefeated. Fedor and Machida are clearly superior fighters.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Aug 13, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Undefeated does not equal best in all cases.
by Razreshat on Aug 13, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it does.
Unless you are talking about undefeated in Elite-XC or something.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Aug 13, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No it doesn't
See how easy that is. Being undefeated is great, but it doesn’t mean you’re the best. Beating the best consistently means you’re the best.
by VegasBatman on Aug 13, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially when “undefeated” includes a figure over 30
by P4P is a stupid concept on Aug 13, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
by MMAEruption on Aug 12, 2009 5:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What's up with the Sherdog profile pages?
I’m getting malware warnings out the wazoo, all of a sudden.
by Vlad on Aug 12, 2009 5:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All of a sudden?
Sherdog has been infested with malware ever since the Crave buyout. I won’t even visit that place without wrapping my browser in two or three condoms beforehand.
by Steve4192 on Aug 12, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That has been the word, but I’ve visited Sherdog literally every day for years and years, and I’ve never had any warnings from my anti-virus software. I’m not sure how exactly, but it doesn’t seem to affect everyone.
It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.
by capital L on Aug 12, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
their picture galleries load SLOW AS HELL for me, and every/any page on their forums are constantly reloading every 4 seconds. blessing in disguise though, because now I’m not even tempted to go on there and kill a few brain cells anymore. the forum, that is.
by Grappo on Aug 12, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have any problems as long as I visit using Firefox with AdBlock and NoScript running. If I visit that site using Explorer my malware detector goes haywire.
by Steve4192 on Aug 12, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does a good-at-the-time analysis of Fedor’s opponents improve things much? The dude’s record is nowhere near as impressive as Silva’s for the reasons above.
While I’ve been guilty of the excessive revisionism the author attacks, hindsight does have some merit. It might be revisionism to use hindsight to diminish Rashad Evans KO of Chuck or Jardine’s decision, but when you see the downward trend its hard not to draw the conclusion that the Chuck they beat wasn’t the Chuck that had a 3 year win streak.
by toxic on Aug 12, 2009 6:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The only way to evaluate the quality of a fighter’s wins is to look at how his opponents were rated at the time. Keep the revisionist history out of it.
I don’t 100% agree with this. True we shouldn’t let the end of a fighters career blind our judgement and all wins against the same fighter are not the same, but I think subsequent fights do have use.
In any given fight either fighter could win. If the fight was fought 10 times fighter X wins 7 fighter Y 3. In a perfect world we’d know the true probability of a fighter winning.
Of course since we can’t replay every fight 100 times, in order to understand how good a fighter is we need to look at 1. The way he won (luck punch, damage, fight metric stats) and 2. How he fought in previous fights and 3. How he fought in Subsequent Fights
Lets use an example. Uriah Faber vs. Mike Brown. In the first fight I think most people regarded this as “lucky punch”, but as we saw Brown fight Faber again we saw additional things that affected the first fight. To put it simply after the first fight I say Brown wins 3/10 times, but with more information after the second fight I move to 7/10.
The same would have played out with Matt Serra’s “Lucky Punch” if he had strung together a bunch of victories.
by SES 84 on Aug 12, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Successive fights provide additionsl info that should be evaluated. People thought Houston Alexander was a worldbeater until his losses exposed him as a one trick pony.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 12, 2009 7:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Revisionist History
In retrospect people tried to re-evaluate Rich Franklin, now Forrest Griffin, tend to forget that Marquardt has a really great record, former King of Pancrase . . . Silva simply made great fighters look bad.
Lyoto. Soukoudjo all of sudden sucked. Tito was washed up, yet he beat Griffin, had a draw with Rashad Evans due to a point taken away . . .
Shogun comes and get beat by Griffin, gasses against Coleman and notwithstanding his reign in Pride is not really that great?!?
We already heard the crap tossed Chuck Liddell’s way and Wanderlei’s way. People tend to talk about Wanderlei’s string of losses and act as if he’s washed up. First he lost to Cro-Cop, A FREAKING HEAVYWEIGHT!! Has a cold, takes the fight anyway and get KO’ed by Henderson. He’s aware that his style of fight leaves him open BUT he wants to put on a show FOR YOU MR. and MR(s). KEYBOARD WARRIOR. Drops a decision to Liddell in a GREAT SHOW, leaves himself open to Rampage, DESTROYS Keith Jardine and loses via decision to Rich Franklin a fight he felt he won.
Props to Breen’s article.
Daily MMA Drawings starts Aug 10th!
http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog
by VeeisAnimated on Aug 12, 2009 6:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
By the way about the AKA trio, and Jacksons crew……
None of them are dual champs at two weight classes. If rashad and jardine string up wins and one needs to be the top contender they need to fight. Same for AKA. Anderson can stay at 185 and rule, machida the same at 205. They don’t NEED to fight. Aka guys plus Jacksons camp might have to. Or get out of the ufc but when push comes to shove how many will leave when forced to fight team mate?
"What do you want from me?..... A Slap?"
by xtremecouture on Aug 12, 2009 7:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
i agree with the spirit of the article, when i look at anderson’s record, i have to admit he stopped Franklin and Hendo at or near their peak when they were/are still A level fighters. beyond that, you have Cote, Leben, Lutter, Leites, and Irvin….good fighters, guys with good skills, but not A Level Talent. Then you look at someone like Hendo with wins over Bustamante, 2 pride belts simultaneously, Vanderlei before hte 4 losses in a row, fights against Nog….and their resumes just don’t even compare.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/
by theworldsoldestsport on Aug 13, 2009 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're right
Andersons is far better.
by VegasBatman on Aug 13, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
