Bloody Elbow Judo Chop: Thiago Alves Could Not Stop Georges St. Pierre's Chain of Takedowns
by Luke Thomas on Aug 12, 2009 8:45 AM EDT
in Technique
61 comments
I know a Judo Chop of Georges St. Pierre's takedowns of Alves from UFC 100 are a little dated, but they're absolutely still worth a look not just because they helped carry St. Pierre to victory, but because they are evidence for the notion that St. Pierre has the best takedowns in all of mixed martial arts.
First, it's worth noting that while St. Pierre put on an incredible display of takedown aplomb, he did not take down Alves at will. The American Top Team product was able to shrug off several takedown attempts throughout the course of the fight, which is a testament to his skill and preparation for this historic bout.
Second, what makes St. Pierre so special is that just like high-level BJJ players link together submission attempts in "chains" to increase the likelihood of landing a submission in competition should one or two or even three attempts be avoided, St. Pierre puts together chains of takedown attempts. Admittedly, others already do this in professional MMA, but almost always they do so when trying to takedown an opponent whose back is pinned against the cage. From that position, it's far easier to transition from a double to a high crotch because the opponent is being driven into a wall and doesn't have enough mobility to resist. St. Pierre is able to switch from one type of attempt to another without the help of cage in free space. Working in open space while transitioning requires impeccable athleticism and timing and is indicative of the unique level of skill St. Pierre brings to professional MMA.
Earl from D-1 College Wrestling (a site I cannot recommend enough) adds some helpful context about what makes St. Pierre's takedowns in this fight so special:
These clips show that GSP can consistently finish takedown attempts on a large, powerful opponent in Thiago Alves. Many fighters will attempt takedowns and get stopped, but GSP’s ability to finish is the result of his excellent technique.
In each clip the common theme is GSP’s foot movement. He never stops driving, even if he is initially "stonewalled". If he stops driving his feet, Alves has the opportunity to sprawl and stuff the attempt. In wrestling, the shooter is often taught to shoot a double leg as if he is "shooting through two or three opponents". Aiming for "just one" opponent may lead to the shooter stopping when he makes contact with the defensive wrestler.
Another technically sound portion of GSP’s takedown offense is the fact that he actually is shooting on Alves. Often you will just see a fighter just dive at his opponent’s feet with his head down. This is much easier to defend. A trick that I was taught when shooting on an opponent’s leg is "Never let your shoelaces face the mat". Obviously these fighters are not wearing shoes, but the point remains the same. You do not want to be sitting on your feet with the top of them facing down. In this position, you likely are overextended and carrying the weight of an opponent who has already sprawled and it is difficult to generate the power needed to finish the shot. In each clip GSP never lets this happen.
It still blows my mind that GSP is such an incredible wrestler, yet he never was a wrestler.
Let's break down the more notable takedowns after the jump.
In the first takedown, we see St. Pierre attempt to run the pipe off of the single leg only to switch to a double leg to finish. When running the pipe to finish the single, you're circle your back leg clockwise or counterclockwise (depending on which leg it is, but the motion is always to the rear) while you pressure your chest down on the thigh of your opponent. This forces them off balanced hopping on one leg while you drive them down. In this instance, St. Pierre attempts to run the pipe, but a strong Alves resists. Sensing he can't get Alves to the mat off the single leg alone, St. Pierre uses Alves' balancing leg - also the supporting leg - to transition to and subsequently finish the double. A double, mind you, that's aided by St. Pierre changing angles on the takedown at the last push. This is an impressive, athletic feat and one St. Pierre has likely drilled under the tutelage of the world-class wrestlers on the Canadian national wrestling team (and the others he trains with).
In my view, this takedown is the most impressive of them all in terms of demonstrating St. Pierre's immediate adaptive capability. Here we see St. Pierre penetrate deep on Alves' hips, but the ATT product was prepared and immediately dug underhooks and forced his hips out to rip St. Pierre off of him. However, St. Pierre immediately feels Alves' resistance and quickly goes from low to high by switching from an attempted double on Alves' hips to a knee tap on Alves' right knee/left armpit. St. Pierre blocks Alves' left knee while he "throws him by" and drives Alves to Alves' left with the underhook from St. Pierre's left arm. Again, note how rapidly St. Pierre changes his attack once he feels the strong resistance from Alves. It's takedown sleight of hand: get the opposition to commit to defending a takedown that you're not actually attempting.
To Earl's point, here's another perfect example of St. Pierre continually moving his feet and driving through until the takedown is finished. And, once again, notice how St. Pierre changes angles when he drives. Some folks think the double leg is accomplished when you drive straight back and off balance your opponent through sheer momentum. And while that can work for a scoop double (like the kind Fedor Emelianenko prefers), the reality is you have to finish the double in most cases by driving in a perpendicular angle from the one in which you penetrate.
For those curious about how to properly run the pipe:
And then Tito Ortiz explains how to land a knee tap takedown, albeit from a slightly different position:
11 recs |
61 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Great Job Luke
Luke’s last paragraph made me think of something I didn’t mention. In order to drive the opponent at a perpendicular angle George uses his head to help push Alves. It’s very subtle, but without it Alves will get driven straight back and may or may not give up the takedown.
by earld1cw on Aug 11, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Thanks, Earl. Your insight and site are fantastic stuff.
by Luke Thomas on Aug 11, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
great article luke one thing I would like to mention that could be relevant is that Thiago, although he has decent takedown defense, has a very orthodox stance and his posture is very erect allowing for an easier takedown. However this is a testament to St. Pierre as a mixed martial artist blending kickboxing and wrestling absolutely perfectly.
P.S.
When are you going to do a Judo Chop about George Sotiropolus’ guard passing skills
by drano on Aug 12, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I noticed that he's good at that too
either that or George Roop is just horrible… ya that’s it.
by pl4tinum on Aug 12, 2009 7:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you mentioned that, I’ve wrestled and alot of amateur Mixed Martial Artists (who aren’t from a wrestling background) don’t get the concept of using your head as another tool in getting an opponent to the mat. Alot of guys worry about getting their head caught in a guillotine, so long as you are aware of what you are doing, you’ll be able to be care free, as we see Georges is above.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Aug 11, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Head up and tight…. or get your faced ripped off. Learn this the hard way, at an early age..
by MMAWrestling on Aug 12, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way I always phrased when I coached...
“Look at the mat and you’ll end up there, in terrible and violent ways.”
"We're not the other teams' farm system." - Andy MacPhail
by duck on Aug 12, 2009 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSPs takedowns are simply ridiculous- totally relentless. LUKE, enjoyed your interview/discussion the other day on Breen’s show. Good stuff.
"He hit like a bitch."
by SMC on Aug 11, 2009 10:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff.
Running the pipe sounds dodgey though….
by S J on Aug 11, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It really gets me heated that people call GSP a Lay and Pray artist…he’s got the most vicious, dominant ground and pound in the lower weight classes. He controlled Alves on the feet, landed alot of flush shots, and controlled the pace with his wrestling. I wish GSP could fight a strict BJJ player to show off his standup, but right now, the division is lacking a challenger like that.
You can’t blame GSP for fighting the perfect fight against someone who is as vicious as Alves on the feet. Even though I feel like Georges would have won if he hadn’t even taken Alves down once, why should anyone blame Georges for completely dismantling his opponents gameplan, and making him look bad?
Oh well, every fighter has their haters.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Aug 11, 2009 10:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think that GSP had the stoppage were it not for the injury. Thiago’s fatigue was negated by GSP’s groin.
Watching UFC with some people for the first time, a lot of people say that he’s the most entertaining to watch. No one is as active in top control as GSP is, and his ability to do what he wants keeps it dynamic.
It’s great to see the technique GSP uses. Great job Luke. I love this post.
by Dooda on Aug 12, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me personally, when some fighters take the fight to the ground I find it just as exciting as if the fight was standing. Demian Maia is a good example. Yet lately at least, GSP has gone into the same category as Clay Guida, where whenever there is a takedown my heart sinks, because I just chalk it up for another round for GSP, where the fight won’t likely be finished but it will remain static on the ground until the end of the round and the ref stands them back up.
Maybe it’s because he is so dominant that it never looks like his opponent is in the game once it gets to the ground, but I think it’s also that he doesn’t seem to finish people there. His ground and pound I would more call smothering than vicious. If it was that vicious he would be TKOing people.
“You can’t blame GSP for fighting the perfect fight against someone who is as vicious as Alves on the feet.”
Conversely, you can’t blame people that see a strategy which consists of 5 rounds of takedowns and ground and pound and consider it “lay and pray”. You can’t have it both ways.
by brad23 on Aug 12, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s vicious. He was killing Alves from the top in round 2, and did a ton of damage to Penn from guard, enough for Penn to admit he was basically knocked out after round 2. Asking for TKO’s from the guard is silly, even Fedor didn’t score a bunch of TKOs from guard.
I hate to be rude, but you’re trying to find a way to rationalize a ludicrous position. He made BJ Penn quit from top position. He landed insane shots from the guard on Serra that made it easy to pass his guard, and then finished him on the ground.
by Michael Rome on Aug 12, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Another note…he went for numerous rear naked chokes, knocked Alves down, and sacrificed position to go for an armbar in the fourth round. He took Alves’ back whenever it was there, moved to mount, and went for subs from top position.
As it turns out, Thiago Alves and JOn Fitch are pretty tough guys.
by Michael Rome on Aug 12, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t get me wrong, I think GSP is a great fighter and I don’t subscribe to the “all he does is lay and pray” camp. I just don’t happen to find his ground game as interesting as some other fighters, and that’s not how I’m rationalizing it, thats how I react when I watch him fight.
by brad23 on Aug 12, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSP is very active from the top. It’s not just his takedowns that are relentless, it’s his guard passing. He constantly improves his position, and against lesser fighters (as we’ve seen in the past) his constant pressure leads to submissions and stoppages (Hughes and Serra both come to mind). GSP rarely just hangs in the guard; when he’s in the guard, he batters his opponent to force them into a conservative position and then passes; then he’ll do the same from half, and even from side before going for mount. No one transitions between strikes, passing and submission attempts as well as Georges does right now. That’s a dynamic fighter.
Keep in mind: Fitch has a BJJ black belt; BJ Penn might have some of the best MMA jiu jitsu ever; and Alves’ skill plus athleticism are trouble for almost anybody. GSP made all of them look stupid on the ground at one point or another (and in some cases for the entire fight).
If you can’t get excited about a guy who aggressively pushes positions, works strikes to subs, and takes his opponent’s heart away by the end of round two (take a gander at the look on Alves’ face when he’s in his corner after round 2 – he looks terrified, confused and beaten, and as Rome already said, BJ was essentially out on his feet but is just a tough hombre), then I just don’t know what to tell you. Maia is an unreal submission artist; expecting anyone else to do what he does on the ground is unreasonable. GSP is probably the next best thing.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Aug 12, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, the look on Alves’ face was telling. I remember sitting in the bar telling my friends, “He’s done. He’s done. Just look at his face!” GSP on top is just frightening. The way he passed through BJ’s guard basically made BJ look like an amateur. All that guard passing really helped break BJ mentally. It’s one thing to KO someone or sub someone, but it’s another to break a person’s will during a fight. It’s exciting to watch.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 12, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSP is a lay-and-prayer in the same manner that Sean Sherk is a lay-and-prayer …. not at all. It frustrates me to no end listening to people talk about two of the most active ground fighters in the sport as lay & prayers.
by Steve4192 on Aug 12, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sherk isn’t a lay and prayer because he’s forgotten how to take people down, apparently.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Aug 12, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I could argue with you about that … but I can’t.
Sean’s got very good hands but no power and those little T-Rex arms are a huge disadvantage in the reach department. He really needs to get back to his roots and start using his boxing to set up takedowns again rather than trying to slug it out.
by Steve4192 on Aug 12, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone re-watched Fitch vs Alves? Goldberg talks about Alves potentially dropping to lightweight where Fitch is probably more middleweight.
Now we’re talking about Alves being the biggest Welter ever. The dude has put on a ton of mass.
by Dooda on Aug 12, 2009 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh well, every fighter has their haters.
Very true. If people are gonna hate on GSP, that’s fine. I stopped trying to convince people, cause some people won’t believe anything other than their own preconceived notions. He made Serra, Fitch and Alves’ faces look like ground beef, and he made BJ quit. Still, people say he lays’n prays. All I know, is that every time I’ve watched GSP fight, the whole bar is usually chanting his name.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 12, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention GSP worked his ass off trying to KO/TKO Fitch in their matchup, and came close many times. He made Serra look like a goon on the ground. Alves was defending Josh Koscheck’s takedowns like nobodies business, and GSP made him look like an amateur.
Of course GSP is going to go balls to the wall, constantly looking for a finish. He is the champion, and his belt is on the line. At least he has found a better balance between caution and excitement than Anderson Silva has at Middleweight.
If GSP came out every fight and when he got the fight to the ground went Brock Lesnar smash attack from the first Mir fight on his opponent…he’d get subbed eventually. GSP dosen’t need to change a thing, his opponent do.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Aug 12, 2009 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just shows how tough a dude Fitch is. GSP dropped him numerous times. I feel really bad for the winner of Kampmann/Swick.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 12, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 12, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that people loose sight of...
how good Alves was to last 5 rounds and stuff some of GSP’s takedowns, i dont see many people doing either of those against GSP. GSP is clearly the best MW but Alves is clearly the second best MW…
Great chop luke.
now get on to the passing clinque my aussie boy put on roop.
by Beren on Aug 11, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jon Fitch just did the same thing last August, he got dominated as well.
And GSP and Alves are welterweights, not middleweights.
Walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by ufc4 on Aug 11, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSP set the Fightmetric record for their scoring system over a 5 round fight. Alves did lose all rounds, but in total did not get hit nearly as much.
by bigweeze on Aug 12, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats not exactly the largest set of data though… There would be what, 10-15 UFC title fights a year? What percentage of those would last 5 rounds? 20%?
by brad23 on Aug 12, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was George that good or Roop that bad on the ground? I don’t know their history but looked like some of both.
by Django Z on Aug 12, 2009 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
now get on to the passing clinque my aussie boy put on roop.
some Sotiropoulos awesomeness (gifs are way too big to embed on here)
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5617/ufc101sotiropolosroop1.gif
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7685/ufc101sotiropolosroop2.gif
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2822/ufc101sotiropolosroop3.gif
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/8536/ufc101sotiropolosroop4w.gif
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/945/ufc101sotiropolosroop5.gif
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9166/ufc101sotiropolosroop6.gif
by Grappo on Aug 12, 2009 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thanks!
this might just get chopped
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Aug 12, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hassan...CHOP!
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Aug 12, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice article. I think GSP’s takedown ability was even accentuated at UFC 101 with Kenny’s inability to really make BJ use his top takedown defense. I figured since Florian trained with GSP quite a bit for this fight, and Florian has shown the ability to adapt his game and pick up new tools to utilize, he could execute some of the takedown ability GSP displays. You could see Kenny trying it, but he didn’t even get close to executing one (mainly because of one of the points highlighted here with Kenny not driving his legs and utilizing good footwork).
and what is impressive is I forgot Alves had stuffed some of the attempts, and i think that was because of how GSP transitioned from them and adapted to unsuccesful attempts. It is very obvious with some guys when they execute an unsuccesful takedown (not to pick on Florian, but he is fresh in the mind. You could tell almost immediately he wouldn’t get the takedown).
by mo dogg on Aug 11, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When GSP can’t get a takedown, he looks like he pulls back so he dosen’t overextend himself and is ready for the next move. When Kenny couldn’t get the takedown on BJ, he looked like a small child hugging his dad’s leg…
Not trying to bash Kenny, but when it comes to wrestling ability, I think the comparison is fair.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Aug 12, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
very interesting. I think wrestling is really underrated by the ‘masses’ which is a shame because when you understand the concepts better it really does become a lot more interesting/exciting.
In all honesty I spent a lot of time practicing the wrestling in the game because once I started understanding how you used wrestling to get into a better position it became a lot more fun to watch.
Thanks for the article.
by pr0cs on Aug 12, 2009 12:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gotta mention it....
Anyone else Google “Aplomb”, or am i complete idiot…?
by MBreezy on Aug 12, 2009 12:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
GSP mentioned in one post-fight interview
that the gameplan was to wear Alves down and then submit him, but as people have mentioned, the groin injury kinda hindered those plans.
I’d love to see GSP use his fantastic BJJ more along with the stellar wrestling to look for the finish. I recall him dropping back for leg locks against Fitch and Koscheck, but it was always at the very end of a round.
His kimura-to-armbar finish in the 3rd Hughes fight was beautiful, and I wish we’d see a little more of this than the ground and pound. Then again, some of the competition he’s faced have possessed very good sub defense (Fitch) or have just been flat-out impossible to sub (BJ), but I do think that GSP’s BJJ is among the best at 170, if his guard-passing clinic on BJ wasn’t evidence enough, and I think Alves was submittable if the injury didn’t happen.
by Scott Haber on Aug 12, 2009 1:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He did go for chokes and an armbar, but Alves defended well. It was the armbar attempt that led to the groin injury.
by Michael Rome on Aug 12, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recall him dropping back for leg locks against Fitch and Koscheck, but it was always at the very end of a round.
Leg locks are so risky. If you don’t do it right, your opponent can end up getting you in a leg lock in turn, or you could lose position and end up on the bottom. That’s probably why GSP only tried these at the end of the rounds.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Aug 12, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. I’ve said this many times. I remember before the Fitch fight he had went to Brazil and trained specificly in leg locks, and when there would be 10 seconds or so in a round, he would attempt one, just to test the waters, and there was little risk if it failed.
GSP’s BJJ is so much better than the last time we really got to see it.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
by kyfm621 on Aug 12, 2009 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff, Luke. My wrestling knowledge is sorely lacking, so I really appreciate this type of article. On top of that, it really was the under-reported story coming out of UFC 100.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Aug 12, 2009 1:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very good stuff Luke, love the judo chops on this site, can’t get enough of them. As a former high school wrestler, the most impressive takedown was certainly that double leg to a knee tap. That’s high level stuff right there, made even more impressive by the fact that GSP never wrestled in high school. Keep up the good work. Would love to see judo chops on Silva’s striking clinic on Griffin and Sotiropoulos’ guard passing.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Aug 12, 2009 1:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
second the Sotiropoulo's guard passing. was great to watch.
i smell George on the main card – when the UFC come downunder.
by Ronnie Liddle on Aug 12, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The takedowns of GSP…what a beautifull thing. I think it is funny how GSP usurped the thrown from Hughes and has basically taken his wrestling style and MADE IT BETTER!
by Bandaka on Aug 12, 2009 3:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Throne
Unless thrown was an intentional pun given we are talking about takedowns :)
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Aug 12, 2009 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please do a judo chop on Silva's ko of Forest.
I tried a little but the whole time i was writing i thought you could do a much better job. “the anchor punch”
by T1B1ALH4MM3R on Aug 12, 2009 4:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bloody Elbow Judy Chop: Anderson Silva is an Alien
So you’re probably wondering how Anderson Silva made Forrest Griffin look like such a chump. Well, I’m here to explain it, step by step.
Step 1: Be born on some far off planet of hyper-fast warriors.
Step 2: Come to Earth and learn to fight from some of the best martial artists in the world.
Step 3: Annihilate anyone who comes within range and scare Joe Rogan.
Next up, we’ll discuss Greg Jackson’s psychic abilities which allow him to control fighters’ minds.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Aug 12, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A takedown reversal
Good use of underhooks and direction change ;)
by Graven Image on Aug 12, 2009 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
GSP may not have taken Alves down “at will”, but he did land something like 10 of 12 or 10 of 13 in his takedown attempts. That’s pretty amazing.
Great breakdown here, with great gifs as well as technique explanation!
by Hardcharger on Aug 12, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The best
The best mixed martial artists do all the small things right. It’s hard to imagine a WW that is going to be able to stop St. Pierre’s takedowns.
MMAMoneyLine
by MMAMoneyLine on Aug 12, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
