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Did Florian and Sherk Mix Up Their Game Plans for BJ Penn?

Let's give some props to Kenny Florian. For nearly four rounds, he hung in with the best lightweight fighter in the history of MMA. There's no shame in losing to BJ Penn, but watching Kenny's fruitless attempts to outwrestle BJ led me to one thought:

Did Kenny Florian and Sean Sherk mix up their game plans for BJ Penn?

At UFC 84 last May, BJ dominated Sean Sherk in what was essentially a boxing match. It was expected that Sherk would use his dominant wrestling to wear down the Prodigy. After all, BJ was a superior striker with excellent head movement, big power, and a rock of a chin - not to mention a reach advantage.

BJ has the best takedown defense in the game, but Sherk could tire out Penn and eventually begin scoring takedowns to squeeze out a decision. And if he exhausted BJ, a TKO victory wasn't out of the question.

It wasn't to be. Sherk stood and traded with Penn for the entire fight. At the end of round three, Sherk succumbed to a flurry of strikes and the Prodigy returned to Hawaii, lightweight belt and Sherk's blood in hand. 

Bizarrely, this past Saturday at UFC 101, we saw Kenny Florian try to outwrestle BJ - precisely what the MMA world thought Sean Sherk would do

The best possible strategy for Kenny was to try to outpoint and frustrate BJ with kicks, and potentially go for a finish late in the fight when BJ wasn't so fresh and sharp. Kenny certainly had little chance of knocking out or submitting BJ - and even less of a chance of outwrestling him.

When Matt Hughes has trouble taking a guy down, that guy is a damn good counter-wrestler. Even GSP, the best wrestler in the history of MMA, had difficulty in taking a fresh BJ down. (of course that would change as BJ tired...)

But instead of playing Machida, Kenny tried to play GSP - a fatally flawed strategy for a guy who's just not a wrestler. Kenny' supposedly superior camp may have failed him strategy-wise by giving him a game plan fit for Sean Sherk.

I didn't give Kenny Florian a snowball's chance in hell of beating BJ Penn. But in MMA, there's always a chance, especially when a guy is well-trained and hungry to win.

Kenny couldn't exactly stand and bang with BJ given the disparity in punching power. But a focus on scoring points rather than physical domination would have made for a more competitive bout.

Poll
Did Kenny Florian Have a Bad Game Plan for BJ Penn?
Yes
128 votes
No
41 votes

169 votes | Poll has closed

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 22 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I think Kenny’s lack of significant kicks was due more to BJ controlling distance and using feints than to Kenny being stupid. Also, Sherk tried to take BJ and the very beginning of the fight and BJ stuffed the shit out of it.

by Jahbulon on Aug 10, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions  

Kenny pretty much did the same thing as GSP except failed utterly.

by Ahhhoki on Aug 10, 2009 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

exactly

Yes, time flies. And where did it leave you? Old too soon...smart too late. - Mike Tyson

by lovingmma25 on Aug 10, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Who voted no on this? Whoever voted no is patently incorrect.

by Patrick Tenney on Aug 10, 2009 11:35 AM EDT reply actions  

The way I see it is, Kenny pretty much tried to go with GSP’s strategy of pressing Penn against the cage to weaken Penn’s boxing (if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you shouldn’t have even voted in this thread…). Of course, Kenny isn’t as dominant a wrestler as GSP, so what I THINK the plan was, was to tire Penn out the first two or three rounds, then go for broke in the fourth and fifth. Kenny, I believe, stole a round or two. Do I think he should have? No, but I do think the judges would have saw Kenny’s control against the cage overshadowing all the other action.

In theory, it’s a good plan. But something happened. Kenny’s mindset was affected during the earlier rounds, and when it came time to finally strike with the weakened Penn, he opted to continue clinching against the cage.

So I say, No, Kenny’s gameplan wasn’t bad, but his lack of sticking to it, or adapting to situations was terrible.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 10, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Also, and I do not say this in an argumentive tone, what do those of you who think Kenny had a bad gameplan think he should have done to have a better chance of winning the fight?

In my mind, in all other strategies, Kenny is far more likely to lose.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Aug 10, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Anything

Walla, walla, walla, I'm an idiot.

by ufc4 on Aug 10, 2009 10:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don’t think Kenny won any of the rounds b/c his clinching was not effective at all and BJ controlled the fight from beginning to end.

I didn’t vote b/c the options don’t apply.

Yes, time flies. And where did it leave you? Old too soon...smart too late. - Mike Tyson

by lovingmma25 on Aug 10, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

How can you say Kenny's strategy was bad?

It’s true that Sherk could have implemented a much better plan based on the blueprint laid out by GSP, but firstly, Sherk is neither the same caliber of wrestler that GSP is, nor is he much bigger either. Secondly, just because Sherk could have used a better strategy doesn’t mean Kenny’s strategy was wrong. I felt that Kenny could hardly have done better. Penn demonstrated that he was better in every area the fight took place, having the better of the fight in the stand up, in the clinch, in wrestling, and obviously on the ground. Despite that, Florian stayed in the fight up to the fourth round and was able to make the rounds close despite being apparently weaker in all areas.

It was his game plan that kept him in the fight as long as he lasted.

by wrens on Aug 10, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

The people picking Kenny

prior to the fight seemed to think his kicks, elbows, and conditioning would all be to Kenny’s benefit. Ken-Flo tried to employ all three in his gameplan, each with varying degrees of failure.

by rzor on Aug 10, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Kenny had trouble sitting down on any punches because you have to hit BJ very hard to stun him or even put him off balance. As his chin is so strong and his hands so heavy, he can win nearly every exchange. This made Kenny’s kicking game one-dimensional. Perhaps some stance changes, or teeps could have helped Kenny out… But a Penn that resembles anything close to the old BJ is an animal at 155.

At least there are some physically stronger 155ers (Maynard and Sanchez) coming down the pipe. Frankie Edgar may also have a decent shot even though he doesn’t have particularly powerful punches.

by bigweeze on Aug 10, 2009 1:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Is Sanchez stronger? To be honest I think Sanchez should fight Gray for #1 contendership, or at least fight Edgar.

by Patrick Tenney on Aug 10, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions  

There is no LW in the UFC that could come close to being a competitive match for BJ.

by Ahhhoki on Aug 10, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

with that said if BJ does face Diego it could be the first time the Diego will be finished

Yes, time flies. And where did it leave you? Old too soon...smart too late. - Mike Tyson

by lovingmma25 on Aug 10, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kenny didn't seem to have any gameplan

I know I’m playing Monday morning quaterback here and there’s no way I could do anywhere close to better myself, but Kenny royally messed up in his fight with BJ.

First, he didn’t set ANYTHING up. From my memory of the fight, he threw little in the way of combos. He would throw an overhand, a superman punch, a head kick, etc but never tried to really feint or disguise his strikes. One of the things said by GSP after he demolished BJ was that BJ had really fast reflexes, but a longer reset time. GSP mixed things up, feinted and overall kept BJ guessing and not trade punch for punch like Kenny did. He lost just about every exchange because of that. Plus, Kenny knew before the fight that BJ hit harder than him, so why would he try to just trade power shots. I understand that his southpaw stance may have affected what he threw, but doing what he did just seemed silly.

Second, did he really think he could outwrestle BJ? If he had started the fight clinching up in order to wear BJ out to make the striking easier, I could understand that. But it looked to me like he was thinking he could do what no one but GSP has been able to do and that’s take down and control BJ on the ground.

Third, he didn’t try to keep the pace really high in order to gas BJ out. Bj may not have gassed regardless(I wasn’t exactly watching him train day in and out) but historically this would seem like a sensible idea. Kenny would throw something then try to get out of the way before BJ clocked him again. The clinching only seemed to happen after Kenny realised standing with BJ wasn’t working.

It looked to me like Kenny either forgot his gameplan, his gameplan was for BJ to do something stupid, or he got scared. Either way what he did not only didn’t work, but it failed miserably.

I’m a fan of KenFlo and I can’t wait to watch him bounce back and redeem himself after this, but hopefully next time he’ll have a better plan to defeat his opponent.

by bla10cow on Aug 10, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Pretty much dude.

Kenny started diving for takedowns because he didn’t like getting clipped by those combos. BJ looked incredibly fast and accurate with his boxing Saturday night, and Kenny was basically banking on Penn’s gas tank giving out

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Aug 10, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree. I think Kenny was a bit scared to commit to leg kicks or any kind of serious strikes as the counters were quick and heavy. I dont know how Kenny thought he was going to win fighting the the way he was. Sure, he minimized he chances of getting ktfo by wrestling, but he also minimised his chances of winning as we wasnt scoring any points or getting anywhere near finishing the fight. But damn, BJ finishing the rounds as fresh as he started them must have really crushed Kennys spirit!

by GeeDub on Aug 11, 2009 6:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Personally I think a lot of fighters fall in love with gameplans. The idea that he would press BJ against the fence to wear him out was pretty silly, the idea of pretty much doing nothing really, which would be an advantage was rather flawed. So yeah basically I think gameplans are overrated to an extent, micro analysing past fights to the nth degree is not always a good idea.

by StevenGiles on Aug 10, 2009 7:32 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the lack of muscle on Kenny may have been a factor. He just seemed soo small (even for a LW). I think he had a good startegy, he just needed some extra weight to make his strategy work better.

by Bandaka on Aug 12, 2009 3:29 AM EDT reply actions  

i dont konw that its muscle or weight he needs, i think his frame is good for 155. i just think bj was stronger than him and better than him in every area. i dont think florian could get strong enough to take bj down with his current wrestling ability.

even when florian was fighting on the show at 185, i think if he had his skills now, and his size from back then, bj would still work him. bj has been in there with machida, hughes 2x and gsp 2x, i dont think size is much of a factor at 155 for bj

by bluejitz on Aug 13, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

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