Brock Lesnar vs. Bobby Lashley
by NCSAR on Jul 4, 2009 4:55 PM EDT
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PrintThese two fighters will forever be linked due to their former professions.... While we know they aren't going to fight anytime soon, THIS LINK talks about the differences between the two fighters and why Lashley is not in the UFC!
I can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts about this one. Especially those that claim Lashley is the next big thing. The link really tells the truth about Lashley!
Once upon a time I posted a piece entitled Brock Lesnar vs. Kimbo Slice, in it I compared the lives of the two influential fighters. Round two comes to us thanks to the emergence of Bobby Lashley. These two are monsters of men, they both have wrestling backgrounds (in more ways than one), and both are super stars. Tons of people around the MMA world consider these guys to be eerily similar, but they are actually very different!
Talking about Brock
Brock Lesnar(#4 IWMMAR) is a two time NCAA All American. His athleticism and size have helped him earn his share of the UFC’s Heavyweight title, and he is showing no signs of slowing down.
Lesnar started his MMA career with a dominating win over Min Soo Kim. It may have been dominating, but Kim is currently 3-6 and has never been considered a solid pro fighter. That would be Brock’s last tune up fight. Up next was Frank Mir. Mir proved to much for the much bigger Lesnar. It showed that Lesnar was not going to win on size and wrestling alone, and that he still needed work. I contribute that loss the the world class ground game and game plan plan of Mir....
Talking about Lashley
Although Lashley has a better record, he has been fighting guys that mid tier UFC heavys would have destroyed. In his first fight he took on Joshua Franklin. He didn’t have a 3-6 record, but he was making his pro debut, and he hasn’t fought since the December of 08 fight.
Four months later Lashley was fighting again, this time against a surprisingly game Jason Guida. Yes, the same one from TUF. It says something when you are remembered for the negatives of TUF instead of the positives. This is the same Guide that couldn’t make weight. Lashley was supposed to finish Guida but he was unable to do so. Guida does have close to 40 pro fights, but he has lost 17 of them. Not a record that screams impressive opposition.
Bobby then moved on to fight Mike Cook. Cook has a 7-4 record, but has never defeated anyone that has more wins than losses. He is beating up on guys that aren’t even average… Again, not the greatest challenger.
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So it’s saying the big difference is that the UFC hired Brock and gave him fights, while they didn’t hire Lashley and give him fights?
Seems that’s not Lashleys fault.
One was an NCAA heavyweight champion.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
But they were both national champions in collegiate wrestling.
Guys like Mat Hamill, Jon Jones, and Shane Carwin have all fared pretty well in MMA despite not wrestling in NCAA division 1.
There’s a big difference between NCAA champ and NAIA or whatever Lashley was. That’s like saying one guy was a record-breaking QB at USC while another was a record-breaking QB at Pittsburg State (in Kansas) and saying it’s the same thing.
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin
If Lashley was to fight Mir, Herring, and Randy today would you pick him to go 2 out of 3 against them?
In my opinion Lashley could have fought tougher guys.
LOL
The guy barely squeaked past Jason Guida but you are absolutely certain he would defeat Randy Couture.
So he was 79 when he beat Gabriel Gonzaga?
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re joking, right mythbuster? Lashley would not get out of the first round with any of those guys and I have a hard time coming up with more than 2 or 3 guys in the UFC that he could actually beat.
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin
It’s also called common sense. A guy who has trouble with Jason Fucking Guida isn’t gonna be able to school a guy who just dominated Minatauro Noguiera.
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin
No, MMA math is where you say fighter A beat fighter B who beat fighter C therefore A would beat C. That’s not what I was talking about. I said that Lashley had trouble with Guida who is nobody’s idea of a great heavyweight therefore there is no way in hell that he could beat 2 guys who are solidly in the top 10.
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin
Keith Jardine beat Forrest Griffin, and Rampage beat Jardine so there’s no way Forrest could beat Rampage.
oh wait…
Are you even reading my posts? What you did is MMA math, what I’m doing isn’t, I’m simply saying that a guy with the skill level of Frank Mir is light years ahead of the skill level of Jasoin Guida and Lashley barely beat him so what does that tell you? By your thinking anyone who has never lost a match could beat Frank Mir or Randy Couture.
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin
What you did is MMA math, what I’m doing isn’t, I’m simply saying that a guy with the skill level of Frank Mir is light years ahead of the skill level of Jasoin Guida and Lashley barely beat him so what does that tell you?
It’s telling me that you’re using mma math, but don’t want to admit it.
You’ve outdone yourself on the ridiculousness scale by saying Lashley would ‘absolutely’ beat Randy Couture.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 6, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
That is absolutely insane.
Maybe your hatred of Brock really stems from your severe, indefensible undervaluing of Randy Couture
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
Heath Herring and Frank Mir would murder Bobby Lashley.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 5, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions
The guy is new to MMA, give him a break! I don’t have any problem with the guys he has fought. Lashley has openly said he wants to work from the bottom up and get a lot of fights before he tries to get in the UFC. No sense at getting thrown to the wolves right away, then we would never get to see King Kong (Lesnar) vs. Godzilla (Lashley). I do think it wouldve been beneficial for Lashley to have gotten in on the next TUF season.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
I think TUF would have been to quick in a jump in competition for Lashley. TUF is great for younger guys who come from substandard training camps to work with top level coaches and facilities and get a taste of full time fighting. For Lashley he already has access to those things so no real need to risk losing his luster by putting some very visible Ls on his record while he ramps up his skills.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
Agreed.
I think Lashley has a ton of potential, but from what I have seen thus far, he is LONG way from reaching it. Not everybody can have the ridiculous learning curve that Brock Lesnar has shown. Lashley is obviously going to take a little longer to develop, but he could eventually be a hell of a fighter.
My only complaint is that he seems to be going after fights with big names on the downside of their careers (Sapp, Frye) rather than seeking out fights with up & coming guys who can really challenge him. I would much prefer to see him fighting hungry guys who are currently tearing up the local/regional circuits rather than fighting a bunch of toothless old lions just looking to collect another paycheck. His booking style resembles Kimbo Slice (Tank, Shammy) more than it resembles a guy who is serious about fighting progressively better opponents.
by Steve4192 on Jul 4, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Not everybody can have the ridiculous learning curve that Brock Lesnar has shown.
Credibility – shot.
Why?
Because it conflicts with your delusional worldview?
by Steve4192 on Jul 4, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s my guess.
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by Richard Wade on Jul 5, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I always enjoy reading myths comments in Brock lesnar threads. :)
by Anton Tabuena on Jul 5, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions
eh
gets annoying. Anytime I say anything about Lesnar, I get jumped on by his fanboi, and now you. I also dislike BJ Penn.
Because there’s a difference between liking a fighter and believing the hype.
His ridiculous learning curve?? Why, because neither Herring nor Couture caught him in a knee bar?
lol
How many guys coming straight from a wrestling background have you seen acquire skills as quickly as Brock?
His knees from the clinch are nasty as hell. He folded up Herring a couple of times with clinch knees against the fence. His 1-2 combination is technically sound and highly effective. He has dropped all three of his UFC opponents with his 1-2. He even showed some solid Muay Thai against Couture, drilling him with a picture perfect standing elbow just moments before dropping him with a straight right.
For a guy with only four fights under his belt and no striking background, his progression has been very impressive.
by Steve4192 on Jul 5, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
See
thats the thing tho. When people say things like “ridiculous learning curve” and “legendary wrestling” (not you, but I swear someone did the other day), it shoots any credibility down that they are unbiased.
He used a couple new moves after a year of training? well wow, so would * every * fighter… The fact that you are giving him Godly credits for using one elbow and a couple of knees speaks volumes.
“I would like to do an comparison between Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, the greatest band ever. I will be honest and unbiased…” You an see how it could be a problem.
Dude
He’s been at this for less than three years and he has wins over Heath Herring and Randy Couture. Now, some of us still have respect for Randy’s abilities, so that win impresses us, and the win over Herring was about a year into his career. Twelve months in, third ever fight, and he uses fantastic wrestling and unreal power to win a 30-26 decision over a really, really good fighter.
It is you that are biased against Brock (for what I’m sure you feel are very solid reasons) – not the rest of us that are biased for him. And saying Lashley would ‘absolutely’ beat Randy is just fucking crazy.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 6, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Couture would own Lashley. Randy did fine against Lesnar, who is not only a bigger wrestler than Bobby but a better one. Randy would work the clinch and wear down Bobby.
Honestly, I would favor Herring and Mir against him as well. A year from now…who knows.
Up next was Frank Mir. Mir proved to much for the much bigger Lesnar. It showed that Lesnar was not going to win on size and wrestling alone, and that he still needed work. I contribute that loss the the world class ground game and game plan plan of Mir….
Am I the only one that finds this funny? Mir was getting dominated before the sub. I give Mir credit for keeping his wits and pulling out the win, but to say that Mir’s game plan was the reason…that is funny. Mir tried to punch and throw kicks at Lesnar, only to get knocked down twice (once due to a blocked kick).
Personally, I attribute that loss to a very inexperienced Lesnar not being ready for somebody with great subs. Mir deserves credit, but that sub is an easy one to escape….just do the opposite of what Brock did.
by Lynchman on Jul 4, 2009 9:56 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
So, based on this logic,
a more experienced Lesnar will have his way with Mir next week?
This is just unacceptable. People are paying good money to go to the ball park. -Ken Korach
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 5, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe, MMA is unpredictable. A well placed shot can change everything.
My point was that Mir was hardly impressive in that fight. Saying it was Mir’s world class skills and game plan that won the fight is more than a tad off base. For the most part, Mir appeared to be focused on staying alive. I do credit Mir for staying calm and not freaking out.
Lesnar was overly wild and careless. Had it not gotten stood up, I don’t think Mir would have lasted much longer. He was doing little other than moving his head and trying not to get KO’d.
Interestly enough, I think Brock was too cautious against Herring. He seemed to go to great lengths not to let loose and appeared to attempt to be methodical.
Frank has world class sub skills. Personally, I think many are overrating his stand-up (including Frank and Hahn), If Frank decides he can stand and outstrike Brock, I think he will get KO’d in the first round. One punch KO’d Randy and one punch destroyed Herring’s eye.
The man's hands are huge and very powerful.
I can’t imagine Mir thinking he can trade shots with Lesnar, especially given the evidence of the last fight between them.
That said, Mir’s submission skills are vastly superior to Lesnar’s, and while it may not have been directly in his “game plan” to do exactly what happened with Lesnar the first go-round, the submission itself was masterfully set up and executed. The mere fact that he was capable of adapting to the avalanche of Lesnar’s power was impressive to me.
I think Mir underestimated Lesnar last time, underestimated just how powerful his striking is. And I don’t think he will again next week. I want to say that Lesnar should win, but…Mir’s submission skills match up really well against an inexperienced Lesnar. It should be a good fight, one of many on the card I’m really looking forward to.
This is just unacceptable. People are paying good money to go to the ball park. -Ken Korach
by Leopold Bloom on Jul 5, 2009 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions
If I see the 360, I don't care how the fight plays out haha. ;)
by Anton Tabuena on Jul 5, 2009 3:56 AM EDT up reply actions
You may be right, but Mir has a long history of underestimating his opponents while overestimating himself.
Maybe all of his recent interviews are all simply ploys to play the heel, but he sounds like the Mir of old.
One thing of note: I know that Brock has been working not only on his stand-up a lot (including leg and body kicks) but the clinch as well. They saw what Randy was able to do (Of course Randy has always been a beast in the clinch) and are working hard to make sure nobody has that kind of success there.
So I will be curious to see if Brock does look to keep things on the feet for a while.
To me it’s fairly obvious that Lesnar is better that Lashley now. I give Lesnar as much credit as possible for what he’s accomplished thus far. With that said, I wouldn’t kick dirt on Lashley’s grave just yet. With MMA a lot depends on how well a guy is able to implement the pieces of the sport which aren’t a part of his skill set when he starts out. Both men are starting out late in their lives, so they have to learn fast.
I may be more intrigued by another late starter, Carwin, than these two guys.
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