The View of the UFC From Fedor Emelianenko's Perspective
by Kid Nate on Jul 31, 2009 10:28 PM EDT
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I've argued that Dana and the Fertittas overplayed their hand because they are truly fans of MMA. Leland Roling pointed out that there are multiple reasons the Fertittas might not want to risk their gaming licenses by getting into business with a bunch of "crazy Russians."
Over at UFC online PPV distributor Yahoo, Kevin Iole takes a considerably less nuanced view:
Finkelchtein clearly botched the negotiations, but he’s not to blame.
If Emelianenko really wanted to be in the UFC and fight the best competition in the world, he would have made certain Finkelchtein got it done.
If you want to blame someone in this fiasco, blame Emelianenko.
It’s 100 percent his fault.
I agree that M-1's demand to co-promote UFC events featuring Fedor is utterly ridiculous. However, I would also argue that they made that demand simply to put the kibosh on the deal. I've already outlined the Case Against Fedor Signing With the UFC, but there are two reasons I left off my list, one cultural and one having to do with the politics of MMA.
[Be warned, the rest of this post consists entirely of unfounded speculation -- my specialty. Take it for what its worth.]
There's an old saying, "never trust a Greek bearing gifts." It goes back to the Trojan War. It means when someone who has been your enemy appears at the gates offering everything you ever wanted, you should put your guard up.
Remember, Fedor is on the record as not liking Dana White's habit of publicly trash-talking fighters he's negotiating with. Also remember, Fedor and Vadim are Russian. And that means something. From Bloody Elbow commenter mason_beer:
Being Russian matters
I lived in Russia for three years while my dad worked for the embassy there and the first thing you learn is that Russian – perhaps more than any other country – distrusts any outsiders western or far eastern. It doesn’t matter. Its big, dark, cold country that has long winters to sit around and think about the world. It seeps into everything Russians do which is why its been so hard for them to become part of the world, so to speak.
Dana White represents everything Russians hate about Americans – loudmouth, cocky, brash, abrassive, and successful acting like that. For Russians, there is a certain way of doing things and its usually quiet and understated. I can see how Fedor and Vadim are completely put off by Dana White – the quintessential American in their eyes.
The second reason has to do with the politics of the sport. Most were contemptuous of Jerry Millen's claim that Fedor and the M-1 team were concerned with the future of the sport. And as contemptable a figure as Jerry Millen may be, there is something to that. He also called the UFC the "WWE of the sport" and its hard to argue that Vince McMahon is the model for Dana White's approach to the business: control all elements of production, make the promoter the main face, seek total control of the industry, etc etc.
As Beau Dure wrote:
Beyond the back-and-forth posturing over what's being offered to new free agent Fedor Emelianenko is a contest of competing visions over MMA's future.
Five years from now, we could look at a Fedor deal (or lack thereof) as a major step toward the worldwide dominance of a UFC that operates much as it does now. Or it could be a return to the days, only a couple of years ago, when the UFC and Pride operated separately and almost equally.
Fedor and his team remember when PRIDE, not the UFC was at the center of the sport. They understand as well as anyone that if Fedor signs with the UFC that Zuffa will have the top fighter in every division of the sport under contract. That simple fact will make the UFC champion, IN EVERY DIVISION, the linear champion, starting from the moment Fedor steps into the Octagon and continuing as far as we can see.
The Russians don't want to hand the keys to the MMA kingdom to Dana White, its that simple.
Update: From MMA Mania, here's a press release from Vadim Finkelchtein and M-1:
It is unfortunate that so much incorrect information has been leaked to the public. It is M-1's preference not to negotiate in public and we are unsure why people claim that Fedor and M-1 turned down a six fight, $30 million contract to fight in the UFC when no such offer was ever made. Even though Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White did not meet with Fedor in person on Tuesday, they were represented over the phone. Outside of representatives of the UFC and M-1, no other company was represented during our negotiations. Since we did not go to the media with details of the meeting and only responded to the erroneous reports, we are unsure how these reports started. It's unfortunate because these type of tactics will not help ensure that M-1's talks with the UFC are fruitful. M-1 Global is still interested in continuing to negotiate with the UFC and while we are fielding offers from other major promotions, nothing has been decided. It is our hope that the UFC will remain in active dialogue with us as we try to find ways for us to work together. All we are asking is that there is give-and-take in the negotiations and that they are not one-sided.
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Brock keeps beating top 10 HW’s and fighter fights Cans they will have the champ in every division anyways
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
Keeps?
Brock has exactly one win over a top-10 HW, while both of Fedor’s last two opponents were top-10 HWs.
And to save all the UFC loyalists out there some trouble, I know what’s coming next: Sylvia and AA were overrated bums, and Randy was unranked on a “technicality” (ask Kid how reasonable that technicality is). But the facts are the facts.
As to Iole’s ridiculous column, a promoter offered a fighter a contract, and he turned it down. There’s no mess there, just fruitless negotiations. Both Fedor and the UFC will be fine.
Two
Couture and Mir. Both of whom were considered general top 5.
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 31, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Randy had been inactive for long enough to be deranked (15 months). And at the end of next month, it’ll be two years since his last win.
And Josh Barnett hasn’t fought a top ten HW since 2006. What’s your point?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
What?
I have no idea what Barnett has to do with anything I’ve said.
Also
There’s a difference between actual inactivity and not fighting “top-10” HWs. I’m really at a loss to understand what your point is or how your post was relevant to the one you were responding to.
If you’re saying Couture wasn’t ranked, then you have to say Barnett shouldn’t be due to inactivity against the best in the division. I can’t imagine you defending a system in which a guy could consistently turn down top ten fights and remain there. Well, maybe you – but not most people.
If Brock defends one more time, you’ll see a number of sites put him #1.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Three things
1. There is a huge difference between actual inactivity and not fighting the very best in the division. Barnett simply was not inactive. That’s a fact.
2. Who cares about Barnett? He has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Rank him 30th if you want.
3. Any site that moves Brock over Fedor on the basis of a win over Carwin/Cain is going to lose a lot of credibility.
Yeah
But also, why would a site “punish” a guy for not signing with any particular promoter?
Because he’s going to be fighting fringe top ten/fifteen HWs for the rest of his career if he doesn’t sign with the UFC.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
If that happens, we'll talk
You don’t adjust a rankings based on the caliber of opposition you think he’ll be fighting in the future.
Well, Barnett sure as hell won’t be #2 if/when they fight in the steroid fantasyland that is Japan. He may not even be in the top ten.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, OK
You obviously have some major chip on your shoulder about Barnett. I have not mentioned him at all except to say that I haven’t mentioned him.
I do, but it’s not that.
Here it is: If Randy shouldn’t have been ranked because he didn’t fight for over a year (coming off wins over the champ and #1 contender in the UFC), then Barnett shouldn’t be ranked now because he’s fought nobodies for almost three years.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't work like that
Barnett’s been fighting decent competition, but that’s irrelevant. If you want to say that he’s overrated, go ahead, but that’s a completely different situation from Couture, who was inactive.
I guess I’ve already said that there is a difference between a guy not fighting at all and a guy not fighting guys that you think are good enough for him to maintain his spot near the top of the rankings. I don’t really know how to say it in a way that you can understand it.
I have a rule – some sites do, some don’t, but I do – that you have to fight top ten competition in order to be in the top ten. As a result, I don’t have Barnett there. Oh, and the steroids. Couture was in legal limbo – it’s not like he was just turning down fights.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
OK
But the inactivity drop doesn’t take into account intentions. Randy could want to fight every day, but if he doesn’t, he gets dropped. And Barnett has fought top-10 competition.
I would say, however, that if your rule were applied consistently throughout time, your top 10 would probably be 10 guys you’ve never heard of. Also, I don’t think we have enough certainty about the rankings to say that the No. 10 guy is so much better than the No. 11 guy.
Where do you put Barnett – let’s compare top tens
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
To clarify
I have no problem if you want to argue that Barnett is overrated. I’m not convinced either way about that. But whatever argument you make, it’s different from the Couture situation.
If he is, he will be
Not that shortly, though. He fought last in late January.
This is just a BS argument.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Couture and Mir are both better than AA and Tim. That’s a fact.
by Popetastic on Aug 1, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's an opinion
“AA and Tim were ranked higher than Couture and Mir” is a fact.
Purely the result of fighters outside the UFC getting a boost. See Lawler, Robbie.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
See Body, Any
I don’t think they’re actually going to let him kill me... And if he does kills me, book sales will really go up. Boom…win-win, bitch.- Forrest Griffin on Anderson Silva
Haha
Come on, get off that nonsense. Everyone loves the UFC. You, me, and especially the MMA media. I actually agree that Lawler was overrated (not so much anymore), but it’s not because of some kind of boost that fighters with lesser promoters get.
It absolutely is. They look better against worse competition, and also quite a few people let their bias show against “the power”.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I think that it could also have something to do with different rulesets making fighters look better, and have more exciting fights/finishes. The tendency is to rank the fighter who puts together impressive performances higher than the one who doesn’t, even if the wins are objectively better.
Also, if you’re a ranked fighter in a division that doesn’t have many ranked fighters, you’re less likely to look weak, and unless you get upset, you’re going to get wins. If you’re a ranked fighter fighting other ranked fighters, you will kinda stay where you are, unless you either go on a winning streak, or people above you go on losing streaks. In a sport where fighters often fight twice a year, it gets hard to justify pulling someone from the rankings just because there are arguably better fighters below him; you have to wait until he loses, and THEN hold the quality of his opposition against him. Because otherwise you’re stuck saying that a Tim Sylvia, who goes 1-3 in title matches and title eliminators, is less worthy of being ranked than a guy who runs over opposition on the prelims, and puts together an impressive winning streak.
Yup. Rankings are a big cluster, and I am glad I don’t have to publish any and never have to defend any. One oddball prediction about the UFC big deal stuff is I am hoping they are gonna try and make a worldwide push towards standardizing MMA rules. Something like the IOC.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Ok, you are 100 percent right. But rankings criteria are arbitrary. Another fact.
I’m just making a point. Randy hasn’t won a fight in two years. But did he not dominate Tim Sylvia (who I honestly don’t believe was actually ranked higher than Randy at the time of the Fedor fight)? Did Mir not also make short work of Tim Sylvia? You can forget about Andrei and his place in the top ten.
Where are AA and Tim ranked now?
There’s a reason why those guys weren’t fighting in the UFC. They were passed their prime’s and depreciated assets to the UFC. If they still had value the UFC would have brought them back. Not to mention AA gets put to sleep more often than a new born baby.
Actually
The reason AA left the UFC was that after his contract expired he got a better financial offer to face better competition. It was much more like a promotion than a cut. Sylvia was seen as expendable because he was boring (the same reason Arona hasn’t been signed). MMA is a business, and it isn’t run like a team sport.
That was my point
MMA is a business and had these guys still had value to the UFC they would have brought them back. AA still had value at the time but no where near the value that Affliction thought he was worth so the UFC let him walk. As it turned out the UFC was correct in their evaluation of AA, which is one of the reasons they are the top promotion in the game. They have an uncanny ability to guage a fighters value and they rarely over pay for a fighter.
No
Those guys had more value to someone else than they had to the UFC so they outbid the UFC. That doesn’t in any way reflect on the quality of their fighting. Value to a promotion is not the same as the ability to win fights. Which is why, say, Chris Leben in worth more to the UFC than Paulo Filho or Gegard Mousasi would be.
Is there an Echo
I never said anything about winning. Winning does play a part in their value but not as much as their fighting style and entertainment value. I’d watch Wanderlei fight everyday of the week and lose in a brawl rather than watch big Tim use his 12 foot reach to try to jab his way to victory.
OK
So what’s the problem? You were earlier trying to suggest that the UFC didn’t match Affliction’s ridiculous offer to AA because of a determination that AA wasn’t in his prime anymore (presumably you think there’s no limit to what the UFC would pay to keep a guy who is in his prime). If you’re admitting that you were wrong about that, we are at an agreement.
Gross pointed out on Inside MMA
That in talking with M-1 and Fedor… his intentions are to have a life after MMA, and M-1 Global is something he wants to see progress. I wrote some statements about this in previous articles, but only as speculation. It looks like that may be true. He truly want M-1 to progress so that he’s a part of something big after he’s done fighting. I think he felt this was a great opportunity to build it, regardless of how ridiculous the prospect of co-promoting actual was for Zuffa.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think that he could stand to make a ton of money in the UFC that would help him out in the future. He could also advertise M-1 throught the UFC and invest some of his money into the company that he makes in the UFC. That’s if he cares so much about the future of M-1.
I don’t think it’s about money. I think it’s about DOING something after retirement worthwhile.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think Dana would keep him in the fold forever like Wand/Chuck/Forrest/Bonnar. If Fedor came to the table without all the M-1 baggage and played nice he’d end up set for life.
He already has plenty of money, and it goes a very long way in Stary Oskol. Listen, I’m not saying the guy wouldn’t be enticed. I just think that people are overlooking a huge issue. Fedor wants to build something with his own name that will be something he can do past his fighting career, and build the promotion to spread MMA in Russia as well as in other places.
Obviously a big contract will be enticing, but I think people are overlooking Fedor’s future outlook.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure exactly how working for the UFC would prevent him from promoting MMA in Russia. You’d think it would actually accelerate the process.
Exactly, M-1 is going to get a helluva lot more exposure from Fedor simply being in the UFC than by some lousy co-promotion with Strikeforce or some even smaller company. Maybe he does want to build something for the future and promoting it on the UFC stage will get it more attention than anything else.
I don’t think they’re actually going to let him kill me... And if he does kills me, book sales will really go up. Boom…win-win, bitch.- Forrest Griffin on Anderson Silva
I think he may want to get moving on helping M-1 move forward versus a UFC stint. That may be his ultimate goal right now. I don’t know. I think he might have a misconception as to what a successful stint could do for M-1.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I truly think Fedor is looking out for his interests in M-1. I think Vadim and himself are on the same page. The misconception is that they both believe that where he stands now as a fighter has so much pull that it can make the UFC deal with them on their terms. That’s where they are wrong. They have a complete delusional perception of how his standing actually works in the States. It doesn’t work at all.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This argument doesn’t make sense.
The only difference between an actual co-promotion and what the UFC is offering is more money.
Co-promoting with anyone that isn’t the UFC won’t be as good money wise, or setting up M1-wise as this current deal with the UFC. It’s pure stupidity and stubbornness to turn the deal down.
Then it will be the Russian’s monetary loss.
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 31, 2009 10:36 PM EDT reply actions
Strikeforce is willing to co-promote and share 50/50 with m-1? I dont think so. The future for Fedor it that he is going to fight in a small promotion with some cans… only a small promotion its gonna take the co-promotion.
For “shocking” reasons they don’t demand the same things from other organizations. One might suspect they just don’t want Fedor in the UFC.
by Michael Rome on Jul 31, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
what is the diference within Strikeforce or UFC? more money for Fedor… that is the diference. its ilogic if he go to strikeforce for less money and no co-promotion deal.
First, there’s no assurance they will go to Strikeforce. What they want to do is find another sucker like Affliction to pay them huge money.
It already seems like Strikeforce/Showtime is willing to overpay for him, and I bet they’ll be able to get even more while fighting guys that are near-sure wins for Fedor.
by Michael Rome on Jul 31, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re ascribing good faith where there is none. The answer is that M-1 is a shell company dedicated to making money off Fedor. A lot of people’s future depends on Fedor, and they don’t want to lose control of him. They want to get paid.
Assume a Brock/Fedor PPV does 2 million buys, a very real possibility. After the PPV cut, you’re talking 40+ million in revenue. M-1 wants half, and they want it paid right to them so they can choose how it’s disbursed.
Gross has fallen for M-1’s garbage since the very beginning. I am Russian myself, and everything said about distrust of outsiders is true. Equally true is the nature of gangster capitalism in Russia that is perfectly epitomized by M-1 Global. People are looking way too hard for answers when the answer is simple. The hanger-ons don’t want to lose their money train.
by Michael Rome on Jul 31, 2009 10:38 PM EDT reply actions 14 recs
Rec'd
The hanger-ons don’t want to lose their money train.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It’s not about MMA. It’s not about Russia. It’s not about being the spearhead of the ‘fuck Dana White’ movement now that all the other spearheads lay flattened and broken on the ground. And it sure as hell isn’t about the best interests of Fedor Emelianenko.
It’s about money and the people that leech off of it. Period.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to ascribe good faith
I’m just trying to understand their perspective.
I do believe that if Dana had a different approach to negotiations then things might be easier.
I don’t think there are any angels at the negotiation table.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It’s not even Dana. Lorenzo has gone alone too. They gave them everything they asked for last time, and M-1 came back with new things. The goalposts never stop moving. Their perspective is they want to be paid off.
by Michael Rome on Jul 31, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think their perspective is they don't
want to deal with the UFC. i would be surprised if they took all the money in the world plus Dana’s first born.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
But WHY don’t they want to work with the UFC? You say it’s because they want to stick it to Dana White basically, but perhaps it’s that they can’t stand the idea of Fedor losing because then everything they have worked for over the past decade will go swirling down the drain. A Fedor with an unbeatable, almost superhuman aura is worth a helluva lot more than a Fedor who goes 2-2 or 3-3 in the UFC.
I don’t think they’re actually going to let him kill me... And if he does kills me, book sales will really go up. Boom…win-win, bitch.- Forrest Griffin on Anderson Silva
by ufc4 on Aug 1, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bottom line is always money
…unless you’re ducking the UFC
Bullshit
You heard him yourself: he was the nicest Dana ever! ;-)
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Aug 1, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
this, and what ufc4 said, subo, and others....
Fedor arrived for the affliction show with an incredible 34 people in his entourage. Look, these M-1 guys NEVER had ANY intention of signing fedor to the ufc. Zero. Some people are thinking they are just “bad businessmen”. While any company that hires the obvious idiot jerry millen is suspect, there is no way they are so stupid as to think that the ufc would ever do a co-promotion. That was just their way of getting attention, drawing heat as one quality post already stated, and trying to use the ufc figures to help their negotiations with other living, breathing hosts (strikeforce, dream, etc.)
Obviously Fedor isn’t scared to fight the top ufc fighters, but as has been pointed out and is equally obvious, his money-making power for M-1 goes down significantly with a loss. Personally, while I think Fedor has been the best in the business for a long time, I honestly think Lesnar would handle him relatively easily, and I want to be able to make big money off that fight, so I’m pissed it aint going to happen.
I don't buy the Russia argument
You cannot make the argument to me that Fedor signing to fight Brock wouldn’t have generated more press in Russia than everything M-1 will ever do combined. For I will laugh at you.
Iole, for all his many flaws, is dead on here. FL put it best: ‘Blaming Finkie is like blaming Robert Gibbs for something Obama does.’
Fedor will be the last linear champion that isn’t in the UFC. The sooner M-1 realizes that, the sooner a deal gets done.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 10:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A lot of people are saying a lot of things, but until Fedor is fighting in another promotion, it’s all part of the negotiation process.
Agreed
Walking away from a deal can sometimes help close a more lucrative deal. Iwouldn’t be surprised at all if this were the strategy.
I think there is one point of logic that is wrong in the entire evaluation of this decision.
The idea that Fedor is a free agent. He isn’t. For all intensive purposes he is a signed fighter by the promotion M-1 Global. Even when he was with Affliction, he was technically fighting under M-1, not Affliction. He supposedly still has 3 fights on a contract with M-1.
Why this makes a difference? I’m not entirely sure, but I think putting that perspective on it might bring a different light on this.
The UFC, and anyone else, is basically negotiating the loan of an already signed fighter. Perhaps the UFC should hold off until Fedor truely is a free agent and then see what happens.
So true
Fedor’s not a free agent, but the problem is that a lot of fans view UFC as the only venue that truly matters. It’s easily the best MMA promotion in the world now (and for the forseeable future), but there are other organizations. M-1 owns the rights to Fedor, and while fans want him to sign with UFC at all costs, those same fans would cry bloody murder if he were under UFC contract and tried to leave for another organization. Hell, I was upset when Randy was trying to leave to fight Fedor in Affliction.
On the flipside, Fedor will be 34 by the time his contract ends, and something tells me M-1 is going to make sure to lock him up/not lose him. I’d love to see UFC swoop in with an offer so lucrative they can get Fedor without having to co-promote, but since that won’t/can’t happen, I’d rather see Fedor go to Strikeforce and beat the likes of Rogers and Verdum.
The UFC is the only venue that truly matters.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Aug 1, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions
They just swooped in with an offer that lucrative and they said no, I’m afraid it’s over.
The only thing that remains to be seen is what is the actual status of the deal with Affliction.
If he still has one fight on his “worldwide exclusive” deal with Affliction, the m1 deal doesn’t matter, Zuffa, via Affliction might have his balls in a vice. We’ll see what happens if they play hardball over a few months and M1 gets no money over that time.
that is a good point
I wouldn’t be surprised if M-1 has more than a contractual hold on Fedor.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
OK, so when is his next fight on an M-1 card? Or better yet, when was his last fight on an M-1 card? That contract doesn’t mean shit, if he wanted to be in the UFC he would be in the UFC, plain and simple. He may have his reasons for not wanting to sign with the best promotion in the world, and that’s fine, but his being contracted to M-1 isn’t one of them.
I don’t think they’re actually going to let him kill me... And if he does kills me, book sales will really go up. Boom…win-win, bitch.- Forrest Griffin on Anderson Silva
For those who think that Fedor won’t go to the UFC, what promotion do you see him going to? And under what terms?
Does he fight in the M1 challenge, and if so, how will significant revenue be created?
Does he go to Japan and fight for low six figures?
Will StrikeForce agree to split the profits 50/50? If not, will Vladim let Fedor fight Brett Rogers or Alister Overeem for half a mil, knowing that one punch could cost them more than 10 million dollars in future earnings?
StrikeForce and UFC aside, somebody lay out a scenario where my money, as a hardcore mma fan, ends up in Fedor and Vladim’s pockets. What path is my dollar going to take to get to reach them?
i am personally very happy fedor is not in the UFC
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
Go on.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Aug 1, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I am not making any statements here on Fedor and his people being morons (though it seems they are), and the Fertittas being way too generous (though it seems they are) – all I am saying is I think people MAY have been to quick to believe the terms of the contract as stated by Carmichael.
Is it possible – POSSIBLE – that the UFC exaggerated the terms, and now M-1 is responding to that?
Remember, I am just throwing it out there. So relax before Brock Lesnar Brock Lesnar.
BOOSH
I take it you didn’t read Supremacy’s quotebook of propaganda. Who the hell knows what everyone said without a tape recorder. My personal opinion is that Dana really wanted to get Fedor and decided that he would make a “great” (in his opinion) offer, then got mad that the Russians said nyet so he opened the media floodgates to spin everything in his favor except Russians really don’t care what Iole, Carmichael listeners, or BE bloggers think.
I wish I had that last one back
I wanted that one back after I sent it. This situation has apparently gotten to me like few before it. Now, to put it nicely – I think it’s about a bazillion times more likely that Fedor is scared stupid that Brock will fuck his record up than the UFC leaking a fake offer.
Answer this, Tootwrench – what if Fedor came out on Thursday and said ‘I accept their offer?’ Then the UFC is screwed with an offer they never made accepted by Fedor? No way they’re that stupid.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Just tone it down.
I understand everyone is a bit pissed about the situation, but ultimately… people need to understand different viewpoints. Maybe you feel he’s ducking, but that’s an opinion. Don’t resort to bashing a fighter for his decision.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Manhoef sucks
OH GOD THE PAIN. AHHHH (inaudible screams). I was kidding. No more torture. Please be nice Mr. Leland. Don’t kill my family.
(simulated Manhoef bashing scenario)
Banned
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, everyone thinks Manhoef sucks. I just so happy to find his fights the most entertaining thing in the world.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh surely know his weaknesses, but he can end a fight inside 1 minute against almost anyone. That’s what makes Manhoef so appealing to me.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 31, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s got a puncher’s chance against everyone on the planet – the Hunt fight proved that. That’s why I think he’s interesting. I think he should get rid of the fat guy that yells at him, though – dude treated him like shit after the Maeda fight.
He has two nicknames – No Mercy and Marvelous. I like Marvelous.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
There have been a couple of fighters that have made it awfully hard not to bash them.
But that doesn’t matter. I’m normally better than that – I don’t remember the last time I got warned. I don’t even have to understand it – I just need to question it in a way that’s more in line with my regular style. This situation has just gotten to me. It’ll fade – much like Fedor’s mystique.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I just need Forrest to pull the upset so I can keep this new badass picture of mine.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 31, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not a sig bet, it’s an avatar bet against Uber. If Anderson wins, I have to go Kansas City Chiefs (shudders), when Forrest wins he’ll have to keep the Sens. I made it in a drunk moment of weakness during the DREAM card.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
That was a sig bet – and yes, he dodged a bullet. Blackout and I have a friendly one going over whether Maynard finishes Huerta.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
See, this is why you’re not in the bet. Either Maynard finshes or I lose.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was neither finishes you both shake hands and then walk away.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Damnit, you’re right – a decision is a draw.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Mine
Root for a secound round TKo. I want Huerta to hurt for a minute.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think A) they won’t accept any offer without co-promotion, so there’s no chance of that
B) Vitor and Franklin at 195 is lame.
BOOSH
Completely OT: Wow Franklin-Belfort is @195. Guess I missed that. Franklin is the Catchweight King. Poor guy.
I think Franklin is doing just fine personally. He was really cool on the CNBC show.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I say let them have UFC-M1:Moscow with this being the one and only UFC M1 copromotion event. Let M1 have their cake in Russia. And after that GTFO. The UFC then takes over the rest of the world.
No
That gives Fedor a chance to win the belt and then never defend it. The UFC can’t and won’t risk that.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
What happens if Fedor wins the HW title? Unless you put him up against Randy Couture but that’s a shit load of $ for an overseas ppv.
well according to Dana Fedor is somewhere in russia at a Buffet so how could he win against his amazing brock
Well, Thursday is his Sambo night, so he’s earned it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
m1 is trying to build around one guy
problem is, they do not have the resources to compete globally against the ufc, thus their desire to cross promote, because they know they will profit immensely under a 50/50 split, and build from there
they must think that the ufc are pretty stupid to agree just for the sake of one fighter
as a fan, i will not fault the ufc if they are unable to sign fedor at this time
Eh, I have a hard time getting too worried about Fedor one way or another but i’m happy that the Fedor myth is starting to crumble. The guy has been built up by Pride fanboys and media types for the past 4 years as the second coming and as the UFC has taken over the sport it seems the fog is finally lifting and people are seeing him for what he truly is. Regardless Dana and Co. played this great as usual by getting the backlash from the hardcores to expose the questions about what really is going on with M1 while Zuffa continues to rake in big bucks and Lesnar takes over the #1 HW spot after his next fight.
This quote is from the Vadim quote above:
All we are asking is that there is give-and-take in the negotiations and that they are not one-sided.
That quote kind of describes Vadim’s actions towards the negotiations doesn’t it? From the reports of the negotiations it looks like the UFC is willing to give up quite a lot and that M-1 hasn’t given much at all.
UFC is not WWE
I agree with so much of this post, especially the analysis of how Russians view the world differently because of their climate as well as their socio-political situation. But can we please stop the silly comparisons between WWE and UFC and Dana White and Vince McMahon?
Yes, it is an easy comparison to make for the casual fan, who sees big strong men fighting, whether it be scripted or fake. And yes, Dana is outspoken, the way McMahon is. But that’s where the comparisons stop.
* UFC is real; WWE is scripted
* McMahon owns all of WWE; Dana owns 10% of UFC, which is owned by the Fertittas
* Most of what you see on WWE is part of a storyline; the negotiations the UFC has with fighters are real and actionable in an actual court of law
Unfortunately, there are few people in mainstream sports who have the outsized personality of White, as well as the hands on control. I’d say Mark Cuban, or anybody else on this list of outspoken team owners, but being part of a league is different than being the league spokesman.
For this reason, I understand the McMahon comparisons, but it’s also gives the false and potentially damaging impression that UFC is “sports entertainment” rather than a legitimate sport. So can we all skip the McMahon comparisons from here on out? I say this as a former WWE fan who still appreciates the drama of wrestling … it’s just not a good analog for a business that is not creating fictional storylines and is in fact involved in very real negotiations with real-world consequences.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 1, 2009 12:51 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
BTW, to be clear, I am responding to this line:
He also called the UFC the “WWE of the sport” and its hard to argue that Vince McMahon is the model for Dana White’s approach to the business: control all elements of production, make the promoter the main face, seek total control of the industry, etc etc.
And I’m not criticizing Kid Nate necessarily—he is faithfully reporting a quote, as well as playing out the implications of it. I’m just saying that this is a false comparison and we all need to guard the sport against falsehoods, considering how much effort it has taken to gain the level of respectability MMA has (which is still not enough to get licensed in NY).
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
* McMahon owns all of WWE; Dana owns 10% of UFC, which is owned by the Fertittas
Actually, WWE is a publicly-traded company, and the McMahon family owns 51% of the stock.
But the reason why people make the UFC=WWE comparison is that DANA WHITE HIMSELF has publicly stated that he looks to the WWF/E as a blueprint for his company’s business plan. The action figure merchandise deal, for example, is one where he mentions “ROWDY” RODDY PIPER as the justification for why fighters should sign their likeness rights away, so that they can have toys, video games, and other merchandise in play, which would get the fighters residual checks after they finish competing.
What he does NOT do is compare UFC fighters to other pro athletes who have their PLAYERS UNION control likeness rights, and negotiate independently with video games and other merchandisers, because it is not the business model that UFC employs. Indeed, people constantly refer to the fact that it is the “Pro Wrestling Model” (read: WWE), as contrasted with the “Boxing Model” that has helped UFC become so successful.
So I say, if you’re going to use the Pro Wrestling Model, and have a weekly “reality” show (with scripted storylines and characterization) drive promotion of your PPV product, you have a lot more in common with the WWE than the NFL or NBA…which is why Dana White is more like Vince McMahon than David Stern or Roger Goodell.
Kid Nate
You could have quoted me about Russian culture! I posted some quotes about their cultural blindness and misconceptions about American wealth.
Your damn right they perceive Dana White and UFC as evil American greed. When Russians are taught about American culture they read Uncle Tom’s Cabin, Grapes of Wrath and drilled about the atrocities of the 1900’s Robber Barons. To be fair, so does every other Eastern culture but the Russians take it a little more seriously.
I sincerely believe that none of this will matter after the fight, because Brock will still be the HW champion.
don't wanna go crazy with rec option
so i’ll just say… lots of really interesting viewpoints discussed here. this level of discussion on this site is refreshing sometimes.
/\ this
is exactly why I love the site. On a given visit, I see a dozen or more things that should be rec’d, and the general quality of discussion is above most sites on the internet, whether MMA-related or not.
And, I recognize a lot of the commenters names, get to know their opinions, and respect their consistency and insight even if I find myself on the other side of an issue.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Aug 1, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
The view of the UFC from Fedor's Prespective?
I’d love to see it from his point of view but I can’t shove my head that far up my ass…. I hurt my back and have lost a lot of flexibility.
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Rolling, my new favorite writer on BE.
by Gunslinger20 on Aug 1, 2009 1:28 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
It’s sad, because I totally would’ve recced that if you had spelled perspective correctly.
Aw, fuck it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You sonafabitch... you spelled my name wrong. lol
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Aug 1, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Hah!
I remember when everyone did that. Double fail by Matt.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry guys...
I’ve got a 3 week old baby girl that likes to scream at the top of her lungs whenever she’s mine or my wife’s attention isn’t on her… my bad.
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Rolling, my new favorite writer on BE.
Well, learn to prioritize a little better. THIS IZ SRS BUSINESS.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions
lol...
Tell that to her
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Roling, my new favorite writer on BE.
If only she understood English... or Spanish..
Well, I haven’t tried talking to her in Spanish yet but if she understands that…. looks like me and the wife will be making a trip to the Maury Povich Clinic and get some “tests” done :)
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Roling, my new favorite writer on BE.
For the record
I am so, so sorry. She was hitting on me.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
LMAO!!
If she had come out of the womb discussing the direction of the democratic party and why wrestlers are the best MMA practioners… I’d be suspicious of you buddy…
Nah, she looks like her daddy and acts like him too…. she just enjoys being a smartass
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Roling, my new favorite writer on BE.
Fuck you scare me
My new wife and I don’t plan on having a kid for two years (pregnant next year)…and we have a new puppy. The puppy alone is driving us crazy.
So does this mean I’m going to rub my new baby’s nose in its mess?
BOOSH
lol... that depends...
Do you want a joking, no way in hell it would ever happen comment OR do you want the legit, albeit extremely corny answer?
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Roling, my new favorite writer on BE.
You're still my hero Leland!!
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Rolling, my new favorite writer on BE.
Fixed Leland Roling :)
"Moral of the story: mmalogic is wrong. Thanks" Leland Roling, my new favorite writer on BE.
Those tricky M-1 bastards
M-1 Global (M-1 MixFight) is the mixed martial arts promotion based in Holland
The Russians are Dutch!!! I knew Vadim liked clogs and dikes. Though he may need to smoke some weed and tulips.
I only hate two things – people that are intolerant of other people’s cultures, and the Dutch.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Gokhan Saki by KO.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Aug 1, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions
M-1 never had any intention of signing with the ufc... and it aint about dana, russians, or respect
Fedor arrived for the affliction show with an incredible 34 people in his entourage. Some people are thinking the M-1 people are just "bad businessmen" for turning down the best financial offer that fedor will ever receive. As has been well pointed out by Rome, subo, ufc4 etc., it’s not about fedor, its about the leeches who represent him. If fedor actually signs with the ufc, the leeches give up a lot of their control over the fedor gravy train. While any company that hires the obvious idiot jerry millen is suspect, there is no way they are so stupid as to think that the ufc would ever do a co-promotion. That was just their way of getting attention, drawing heat as one quality post already stated, and trying to use the ufc figures to help their negotiations with other living, breathing hosts (strikeforce, dream, etc.) who are willing to let 34 leeches apply suction.
Obviously Fedor isn’t scared to fight the top ufc fighters, but as has been pointed out and is equally obvious, his money-making power for the M-1 leech colony goes down significantly with a loss. As long as fedor has his current management, the only way you will see him fight consistently top competition (in ANY promotion) will be when his career is almost at an end.
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