Miguel Torres Explains Why Frank Mir Lost to Brock Lesnar
by bobthewriter on Jul 27, 2009 3:35 PM EDT
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I think Frank trained wrong for the fight. When I got there, he was training with three, four different guys on stand-up. He was training for a stand-up fight instead of training with wrestlers that were bigger than Brock. If I was fighting a guy like Brock Lesnar, I wouldn't train stand-up at all because I know my stand-up is better, just on sheer experience. I would train to have a guy who was bigger than me lay on top of me and punch me. Anyone who watched the first fight knew that the second fight was going to go the same way.-- WEC 135-lb. champ Miguel Torres talks to Yahoo! Sports' Maggie Hendricks how he knew Mir was going to be in trouble against Brock Lesnar. Other topics include being trained (and hugged) by Mark Delagrotte, as well as insight on his fight with Mizugaki and his upcoming title defense against Brian Bowles.
All in all, a great read and his explanation of Lesnar-Mir II is the best one I've seen.
HT: Cagewriter.com
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Frank Mir is pretty talented with his BJJ. I would think that he had all of the confidence in the world with being capable of submitting Brock. He was also realistic that Brock would want to stand with Frank this time around. The only time that Brock was in trouble in that fight was when Frank unleashed his stand up skills in the second round. I think Frank did what he needed to do but Brock did moreso. He definitely showed that Brock has a long way to go with his stand up and he also is the first fighter to dominate the stand up with Brock. Randy did fairly well but he ultimately got dropped by a punch. Frank did the best in the stand up thus far.
Mir may have done better in the standup than anyone else has, but i think it’s a stretch to say he “dominated” the standup with Lesnar. It looked like he rocked Lesnar a little with those couple of knees, but there was no serious damage done.
by Kierkegaard on Jul 28, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
If Brock would have stood with Frank any longer, he could have been TKO’d. Then again, Mirs flurry is what ultimately lead to the takedown.
Yeah, because
after KOing Nog Mir is all of the sudden a world class striker that everyone fears! lol
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Yup...
Good to see the nut-snuggling between Mir and Torres isnt mutual. Im glad he’s keepin it real.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 28, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
nut-snuggling – I like that, can I use it?
"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Feb. 28, 2008
by lovingmma25 on Jul 28, 2009 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m afraid I can’t agree with his assessment. Brock battered him every time they stood in the first meeting and his boxing has improved. This is hindsight saying “He caught Brock in one exchange while Brock worked the takedown”. Mir trained the right way; confident in his BJJ and worried about getting plugged on his feet.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
i disagree
i do think Mir should have realized he was going to end up on his back again, carrying Lesnar’s 285 or 290 lbs. Mir had no reach advantage, and the ground game was the only conceivable place he could have had an advantage. I think Mir got enamored of his newfound striking prowess, and it cost him.
by bobthewriter on Jul 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You think it was unusual for Mir to think that Lesnar wanted no part of being in his guard?
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
It was likely that Brock would want to stand with Mir, but everyone had underestimated Brock’s advancement with BJJ defence.
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
No doubt
I don’t see how anyone can say Mir took the wrong approach. He did what he found was logical going into the fight. I don’t fault him for that. He got smashed where he was and is most comfortable.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
This – let’s not diminish what Brock did here. He walked right into Mir’s house and beat him bad.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 27, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No. Mir's house would be Mir's guard
and Brock clearly wanted nothing to do with Mir’s guard. The one time he took Mir down and ended up in guard, Lesnar backed right out as fast as he could and stood up again.
Brock was clearly terrified (and rightly so) of Mir’s guard. The trouble for Mir was that Lesnar’s wrestling was sufficiently dominant to allow him to avoid the guard.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Brock was clearly terrified (and rightly so) of Mir’s guard.
Why do I continue to read shit like this? Knowingly getting the fight to half guard and imposing himself upon Mir does not equate to terror of Mir’s guard. He did what he clearly set out to do.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
by Blackout612 on Jul 27, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mean your disagreeing and agreeing at the same time...
He wanted no part of Mir’s gaurd… period… His gameplan was surprising in the fact that most people equated Brock being wary of Mir’s guard as him avoiding the ground completely… Instead, he worked from half guard, negating Mir’s offensive tools from the bottom… and pounding him… The fact that he fell into Mir’s guard, and immediately backed off, is indicative of the fact that he didn’t want to be there… Nothing wrong with avoiding your opponent’s strengths, and employing a different strategy (which he did).
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Right. I'm not making a value judgement here.
Brock was worried about Mir’s guard – otherwise he wouldn’t have so obviously designed his entire fight plan around avoiding it.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
The term "terrified of" suggests he was..... terrified
I’m just saying that Brock did exactly what he wanted to do, and if anyone is worthy of the application of that adjective, it was his opponent.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
I don't think terrified
would be a good adjective to describe Mir either… I don’t think he AT ALL fears Brock…. He’s taken a lot of damage from Brock, and I know he’d be quick as ANYONE to step in there with him again. I think you’re coming off a bit defensive of Brock, when I don’t think it’s necessary…. It’s probably because so many people have tried to discredit him lately, so it’s understandable…
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Not really
I clearly defined my opinion and that nervous smirk on Mir’s face looked like a scared man if I’ve ever seen one. Mixed martial artists, by the way, will openly admit to fears and anxieties leading up to, and even during, their fights. If you’re under the impression that they glove up and just go do a dance for a paycheck, you’re sorely mistaken.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
I think theres
nervousness, and jitters…. but I don’t think terrified is a good word to describe either of these two.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Because he abandoned the successful takedown.
Against another fighter I would expect Brock to look to transition to half-guard rather than scramble backward and stand up.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
I had that moment in mind as a possible explanation for your comment, but I honestly think Lesnar was angry enough to want to toy with him. That’s also a plausible explanation, but I don’t think there’s evidence to describe his move as an act of fear.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
There was no way Brock was going to stand with Mir. His stand-up is garbage. Re-watch the second fight and see how many mistakes Brock makes. A guy with even a basic knowledge of counter-striking will kill him as long as they have a wrestling base. You know who fits that mold? Shane Carwin. Yes, I’m a Carwin nut-hugger. Have been before he even got in the UFC. Same with Maia and Machida.
by FlyByKnight on Jul 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I too am a Carwin nuthugger, but his counter-striking looked pretty shitty against Gonzaga. If he lets Brock tag him like that, it’s over.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 27, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
This package was for you
On the back of one exchange Lesnar has worse standup than Carwin? Dude got his nose broken by Gonzaga in the first round. Brock shattered Herring’s face in their fight and has won every standup exchange he’s ever had for more than a paltry 10 seconds. He had a mind to take Mir back down to the mat and Mir pulled the pin and he still weathered it. This is some wild stuff…
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
Lol. He stood with Mir for a grand total of about 60 seconds and lost every exchange due to his horrible technical striking. Granted, he’ll never be a great technical striker but he can at least be decent. Go back and watch his (lunging) leg kicks. Any guy with a basic knowledge of counter-striking will knock him out when he attempts that crap.
Any striking based fighter that Brock faces would probably get ground into chunky salsa by the halfway point of R2.
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by Ubernoober on Jul 27, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd for chunky salsa.
'He built his whole reputation as a waffle house chef. They’ve been serving him up ham and eggs with a side of canned tomatoes' - Don Frye on Fedor Emelianenko
by Well Read Idiot on Jul 28, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Shrug
You’re going to be a really disappointed individual for the foreseeable future.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
I want to see how Carwin does against Velasquez before making any judgments on how a fight with Lesnar would go. If Carwin winds up having trouble defending Cain’s takedowns how is he going to do against a bigger guy with even better wrestling credentials? That’s not even thinking what his cardio will look like once he gets past the first round.
I really like Carwin and think he is a tremendous prospect but I think we are all too quick to anoint him as the person who will dethrone Lesnar.
by Lyrias on Jul 27, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man, your analysis is practically trolling. There’s almost nothing of value there.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 27, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t realize that stating the truth was trolling but whatever. I evaluated the footage and saw his rudimentary striking skills that will haunt him in the future.
by FlyByKnight on Jul 28, 2009 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t disagree with your suggestion that Brock’s striking is bad. It is. However, considering his weight class, he isn’t too far from par, which is saying nothing of his very impressive and rapid technical progression (often forgotten when discussing his impressive physical gifts). My main problem is that then you go on to anoint Carwin as a guy with more technically sound striking, particularly counter striking. It’s down right ludicrous. Carwin has repeatedly shown bad defensive striking skills. He got clipped by Wellisch, he got hit by Wain, and he got drilled by Gonzaga. Honestly, all he really does to beat guys is draw them into a straight up gun fight, which he’s likely to win because he has a good chin and great power. Hell, he got hit by the same punch, an overhand right, like four times in the Gonzaga fight. Guess what punch of Lesnar’s put down Couture and Herring.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 28, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I couldn’t agree more with Torres. Mir knew exactly what it was like to have Brock laying on top of him (I seem to recall him comparing it to drowning). For Mir to seemingly ignore Brock’s wrestling was just foolish and poor decision making.
Although I still maintain that Mir’s biggest mistake was overconfidence
by Lyrias on Jul 27, 2009 5:13 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow.....
On the back of one exchange Lesnar has worse standup than Carwin? Dude got his nose broken by Gonzaga in the first round. Brock shattered Herring’s face in their fight and has won every standup exchange he’s ever had for more than a paltry 10 seconds. He had a mind to take Mir back down to the mat and Mir pulled the pin and he still weathered it. This is some wild stuff…
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
WHOOPS
This was for the guy above you. My apologies…
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
I think anyone trying to point out what Mir did to lose...
is overlooking that Brock used a strategy nobody really expected… I don’t recall anyone expecting Brock to use a one armed half (full?) nelson from half gaurd and pound Mir out… I think Mir was simply caught off guard, and probably did expect a stand up fight… I think rolling for that knee bar early was a mistake, but if he would’ve ended the fight with it, it would’ve been brilliant (same for the flying knee)…
Regardless, Lesnar fought a very smart fight and wound up the victor….
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Jul 27, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
is that what he was going for the first round, the kneebar? it looked like he was trying an x-guard sweep or something i couldn’t tell
by phantasma475 on Jul 27, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he was going for a knee bar
or some sort of leg position, but I could be wrong…. I guess I didn’t think Frank would want to try to control Brock on the ground, as it seems like it would be a large task. lol.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Caught everyone off guard?
Maybe it is just me, but I at no point expected Brock to stand that much with Mir. I figured he would strike a little, take Mir down & pound his ass out. Brock’s striking is not great, so why would he risk a belt to try & outstrike anyone when he is clearly so dominant on top? This is part of Lesnar’s game that impresses me. Much like GSP, he seems to understand how easy it is to be caught & therefore takes the fight where he can control it. The only real weakness in his game has been his sub defense, which he seems to be headed in the right direction to correct.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
At this point I don’t think it is fair to call his sub defense a weak point. He was never in danger of being subbed against Mir in their second fight. And if Mir can’t do it, then there are only two others who even have a shot at subbing him.
That is why I said "has been".
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
what makes Brock unbeatable
is his ability to land strikes laying chest-on-chest that are as hard as a normal fighter fully mounted and postured. Mir sort of derided this, saying it was like getting hit by your sister. That power, combined with how long Lesnar’s arms are enable him to fully control an opponent laying chest to chest and pound them out. It doesn’t look great and its sort of messy – nothing slick, no smooth transitions – but it works. And Lesnar doesn’t need great technical striking because, again, of his reach. He can throw haymakers on the outside and nobody can get in on him. If they do march forward, his shot is so strong your going to go down. Its his power and wingspan that make the difference and there is no way for Mir to try and train for that, especially when he couldn’t get into full guard.
Hes not unbeatable. Hes far too green for him to not make a mistake eventually.
Also, I still think that his natural reaction to getting punched in the face is to cover up and turn away. Thats one of those things about striking that you really cant teach someone. Not every reacts the same way to getting hit in the face and if you watch what happens when he gets hit by Mir in the 2nd rd you can definately see that he drops his head and covers and then clinches up and gets and easy takedown.
Someone with better striking and more power should be able to capitalize on that.
Anyone can be caught, so simply
stating the someone with great striking will catch him is not really a gameplan.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
thats not the point he’s making… when people start boxing theyre usually not psychologically conditioned to respond correctly to getting hit. most people will, as rabbit said, cover up and turn away. that both gives your opponent a good angle and lets your opponent continue a combination without fear of being countered. if somebody wanted to incorporate that into a game plan theyd probably want to get inside the pocket and maintain pressure. is that the correct gameplan? who knows
by phantasma475 on Jul 28, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
But Lesnar is a wrestler &
when he has got hit he shoots for the takedown. I have not seen him cover up & turn, so that point is really baseless.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I think Brock's Wrestling is a huge change for the HW division...
Not since Kerr/Coleman has anyone emerged as such a big, strong wrestler in the HW division…
CroCop- Striker… Fedor- Sambo… Randy- Greco (natural LHW), Nog-BJJ, Mir- BJJ, Sylvia-“Boxer” (with length, and size), Arlovski- Sambo/Boxing, etc….
The HW divison needs to take time to deal with the return of the dominant HW Wrestling Monster…
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
what makes the size so menacing is that Lesnar knows what to do with his size, and he can move that size like he’s a middleweight. There have been big fighters – Sylvia, McGee, come to mind – that are big guys, big powerful guys with skill. But they couldn’t use their body the way Lesnar car, the control he has over his own mass.
The style might be “donky kong” but I don’t see anyone, not even Fedor (I said it) that can stop him. Actually, given the way the HW division is going, Fedor might want to think about dropping to 205 if he can’t beat Lesnar. The only way someone will beat Lesnar is to knock him out, but they will have to find a way to walk him down without a) getting his orbital bone broken (Herring) or b) getting taken down and banged out (Mir, Couture). Couture was doing it, but wasn’t big enough or strong enough to keep him down.
And, for as much as an asshole Lesnar might act like, he is an incredibly humble fighter when ti comes to working on his skills. He clearly believes in his trainers Nelson and Paulsen, and he clearly knows he has to keep getting better. Thats huge. He’s nearly unbeatable right now but he understands he can’t stand still.
I don’t think Fedor can handle Lesnar.
I think Mir is a little too comfortable off his back. Granted, he hasn’t shown the tools to keep a wrestler like Lesnar from taking him down, but he seems to get in bad positions – like on his back, against the cage. He might be able to get away with it against guys who aren’t as large and powerful as Lesnar.
by Cannon Jacques on Jul 28, 2009 12:03 AM EDT reply actions
Wow - there are many people ignoring Torres
I love it how the majority of people seem to be disagreeing with Torres, then imparting their dubious analysis.
Torres has it spot on. Brock Lesnar nearly finished Mir in their first fight from the top, and having made a bad mistake, got submitted. Considering how powerful Brock’s ground and pound is and how good his top control is, it’s natural that Brock would make some adjustments to take the fight where his strength is. His striking poses a danger to his opponents in that he has great power and a long reach, but he is still inexperienced and unlikely to want to keep the fight standing when he is able to take it to the ground and finish most of his opponents. Mir has dangerous submission skills, but he’s not the most athletic guy at sprawling and creating scrambles. Added to the fact that Brock clearly has amongst the best top control in the game and it was always going to be to Brock’s advantage when he was on top. As an added precaution he stayed away from Mir’s guard because there wasn’t any need to take chances and improve Mir’s “puncher’s chance” of catching something.
If you notice, the brief moments where it was on the feet, Mir seemed to have a clear advantage, but Torres is right, it was more important to try to keep the fight standing then improve on what was already an advantage for him in the stand up.
To beat Brock it’s going to take someone who is going to be able to keep the fight standing, because unless you are really explosive from your back like Fedor, Brock is going to squash you.
Agreed. In the first fight, Mir caught Lesnar with the kneebar while Brock was standing up, not while he had his full weight bearing down on him. And prior to that rookie mistake, Brock was crushing him. Not expecting a giant 265 lb. NCAA champ wrestler to wrestle you seems like an obvious gaffe. And c’mon, Lesnar’s camp had to know that if Mir would have a clear advantage anywhere, it would be standing. He was obviously working hard in that area circa the Nogueira fight.
I recall reading a Mir quote after the fight where he said something like “I didn’t expect him to take me down. Before the fight he said he was going to strike with me.” It seemed amazingly naive for such a student-of-the-game type guy.
That was my reasoning behind beating my kids.
If they grow up taking a licking from me, they will be awesome MMA fighters when they are older. I tell the cops and judge its just training.
Before all you nut jobs freak out——— SARCASM.
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