BloodyElbow.com Opinion Poll: What Constitutes an "Incredible" Event?
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 4:31 PM EDT
60 comments
With the slow news week still forging ahead, I'm taking some time to get some input from our community members as to what they truly believe constitutes the moniker of "incredible" when it comes to a MMA event. Most notably, what makes a fan watching an event say that this is one of the best events I've ever watched?
The idea behind this poll stems from my experience watching UFC 100. Mainstream media outlets and even regular MMA writers were throwing around phrases regarding UFC 100 as some sort of "king of the mountain" event that had surpassed all other events in the past. This mostly came from mainstream writers who were either on the fence about MMA, hated MMA, or actually believed that UFC 100 was the pinnacle of what this sport could achieve.
While I don't believe that UFC 100 was "incredible" by any means, it did bring up the question as to what do fans genuinely think about the particular event. From my own perspective in front of the tube with a host of casual fans, I wasn't as impressed with the event as some other writers. In fact, I thought it was above average, but produced rather predictable outcomes.
I recall talking to a friend on the phone on the preceding Thursday about how UFC 100 could potentially become a dud if most of the fights were finished quickly. As I spouted out those words and was given an affirmative "mmm-hmm" over the phone, I began to wonder if quick finishes in events were actually desired by fans. Would a five-fight main card with 1 to 2 minute bouts be considered unbelievable?
Lesnar vs. Mir was finished fairly quickly, GSP vs. Alves was a punishing takedown scrum, Henderson vs. Bisping ended in a brutal knockout, Fitch vs. Thiago was an as-expected top control battle, and Belcher vs. Akiyama left fans a bit disappointed in the Korean sensation. Does that all sound like an incredible night of fights? It wasn't in my mind, and I was a bit surprised at the praise it received the following week.
Sure, it was a historical event, but it truly lacked any historical segments. It was a run-of-the-mill event with some incredible fights on paper, but they didn't exactly deliver for me. That isn't to say that the fans didn't feel it was a great night of fights.
So, I ask the fans here. What constitutes an incredible event? Quick finishes with some undercard action to get the most fights for your buck? Most likely, fans probably want the mix of quick finishes and epic war decisions or a couple of submissions. Do you like the drawn out chess match jiu-jitsu bouts on the ground that most casual fans boo?
Furthermore, I want to ask one more question. What's your preference for event finishes? Would you prefer a couple of quick knockouts with a few boring decision matches? Would you rather see some slick jiu-jitsu submissions coupled with interesting style match-ups heading to decision? The BE community is the perfect place for these answers considering we do have a lot of people here who train in BJJ, but also a solid part of our fanbase considers themselves casual fans. Let us know your thoughts in the comments.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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I’m unclear on these options. The third says “boring decision”, meaning one boring decision? Multiple boring decisions?
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
by Blackout612 on Jul 21, 2009 2:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You decide. I’d say just one boring decision on a card with a mix of submissions and KO’s.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lemme try to word them better...
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to note...
Most events won’t go down like this with “all finishes”, but I want to get a feel for what most of the fanbase wants.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Here’s the way I look at it. Pride Bushido 9 was the best card of all time IMO, and it had absolutely everything. A couple of boring decisions. But some quick KO’s, quick subs, and some “battles of attrition”. Memorable fights are what make a card for me, and I remember almost every fight on this card vividly.
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by Beer Monster on Jul 21, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very solid event that everyone should watch..
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me it isn’t the mix of results that matters. It’s that intangible factor that has you on your edge of your seat. Two fighters giving it everything they’ve got (preferably with a lot of skill) and not knowing how or when the fight is going to end and having that happen fight after fight.
by thekiltedwonder on Jul 21, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's a mixture of all choices
by Anton Tabuena on Jul 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What would you ultimately prefer though? Honestly, I think the poll comes down to Option 3 & 4.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah a mix of 3 and 4 would be the best
but if i really had to choose, i’d say 3..
by Anton Tabuena on Jul 21, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UFC 91 should just be an option.
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by Ubernoober on Jul 21, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
UFC 95?
"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg
by SSreporters on Jul 21, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s pretty much option 3.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was Gurgel/Riley a lackluster decision? Really?
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by Ubernoober on Jul 21, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, UFC 91 would be Option 3 without the lackluster decision. Hence why I said “pretty much”. I can’t encompass every outcome to events in one poll.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is “Lackluster Decision” even attached to the poll question?
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by Ubernoober on Jul 21, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fixed
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m ok with the decision, just the “Lackluster” irked me.
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.
by Ubernoober on Jul 21, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An incredible event
is Brock Lesnar.
Brock Lesnar?
Brock Lesnar!!!!!!!
"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg
by SSreporters on Jul 21, 2009 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If the fourth option doesn’t automatically suggest that these fights are purely slugfests, but could be in the vein of a Sanchez/Karo or the like, that’s an easy pick for me.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
by Blackout612 on Jul 21, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d say that would be in the realm of it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I don’t really give a shit if a fight ends, as long as it’s a great fight. Quick KO’s, TKO’s and sub’s are fun to see, but it’s really a consolation to seeing a great back and fourth battle between two guys with a big tank. I love to see guys almost get finished by those things, but overcome adversity by taking a monster shot and recover, or somehow survive a sub that would put most guys to sleep.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
by Blackout612 on Jul 21, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s basically what I wanted to get at. I love great fights, regardless of the outcome. If it’s action packed with solid pace, I’m in. I don’t really think quick finishes down the card are unbelievable events unless they are competitve up until the finish. If it’s completely one-sided throughout the entire event, I kind of think it was bad matchmaking.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, matchmaking becomes a concern when guys are just smoking each other out. 100 was an amazing card to me, because you had Akimyama/Belcher and Alves/GSP go to finishes (one dominant, one hotly contested), two great finishes and one relatively boring (though, initially tense) decision. And somehow those combination of things made it so that I wasn’t upset at not seeing some of my favorite fighters that took part in the undercard. Another element that added to my enjoyment was the suspense & anticipation for three of those bouts. Lesnar/Mir & Bisping/Hendo for their pre-fight buildup and title/title picture implications, and GSP/Alves for the impression that Alves was the last truly credible threat to GSP’s dominance at 170 pounds. So I’d say several things go into my enjoyment of a match up. Perhaps these four five keys, in order;
A) The win/loss and pedigree of the fighters in question.
B) The previous rate of success in those fighters ability to entertain in televised fights.
C) The match-making of those fighters and their closeness in probability of victory.
D) The pre-fight marketing, tension and build-up of that fight.
F) The fight itself delivering on the expectations of the four latter keys.
One additional point.. Part of the reason I love Lesnar so much is that his last two fights (vs Couture and Mir, respectively) very easily land in my top ten most tense/anxious/anticipated viewings of an MMA fight, all time. And both delivered on those high expectations. There’s just a feeling of anticipation surrounding his fights that is so difficult to replicate, though that same feeling existed during Bisping vs Hendo, where every punch, shot, clinch or motion is of such great importance.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
by Blackout612 on Jul 21, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, my dad hates decisions. He didn’t like: Diego/Karo, Fedor/CC, Rampage/Forest, Randy/Sylvia, Brown/Faber 2, Fedor/Nog or any other decision at all. Sometimes, watching MMA with him is a pain in the ass.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jul 21, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Show him Guida/Sanchez.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by subo on Jul 21, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t like that one either. Didn’t like Hansen/Alvarez. Didn’t really like Kampmann/Condit.
In his mind, if a fight goes do decision, then neither fighter did enough to win, no matter how dominant the UD.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jul 21, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lesnar/Herring? GSP/Fitch?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by subo on Jul 21, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not even Ace/Crow. Still not enough for him. He thinks if you’re so much better, you should have finished him.
He’s very much a casual fan, but actually prefers a sub to a KO.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jul 22, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love to see guys almost get finished by those things, but overcome adversity by taking a monster shot and recover
Scott Smith vs. Pete Sell.
"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg
by SSreporters on Jul 21, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Favorite fight ever.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jul 21, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually didn't see the fight
Until an episode of Ultimate Knockouts.
My dad and I were watching with our jaws dropped.
"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg
by SSreporters on Jul 21, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Insta-classic. Was an great fight even without the ending, but that was such an icing on the cake.
("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)
by mythbuster on Jul 21, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, Scott Smith always delivers, even in losses. He comes forward, always goes for the knockout.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree 100000%
He’s not the best fighter but he is one of my favorites. He never gives up.
In Smith vs Lawler 1, he overcame those devastating body shots in the first round that would have folded many others.
("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)
by mythbuster on Jul 21, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smith, Lytle, Wanderlei, Faber, Sanchez, Torres; all guys that are nearly 100% guaranteed to deliver an exciting fight.
"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."
by Blackout612 on Jul 21, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Also is nice if some new highlight reels come out of an event.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jul 21, 2009 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I liked UFC 100 for the nostalgia and the fact that two titles are never on the line in the same show. Back to back title fights, even if they’re not the most exciting fights ever, do it for me.
But yeah, option 3 all the way. Without one good fight that goes the distance (or maybe a hardcore upset or two), it looks like shoddy matchmaking.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
by subo on Jul 21, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure I would be able to reduce an incredible night to a formula like you have in the poll.
("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)
by mythbuster on Jul 21, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s tough… I can’t exactly throw 17 options on there.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understood
I didn’t mean it that way. I meant that an incredible night is intangible and can’t really be reduced to “It has to be this and that”. Incredible finishes, overcoming odds, favorites winning, heels losing, hard fought battles, quick KO/Sub, etc. these are all things that could make an incredible night.
("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)
by mythbuster on Jul 21, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I ultimately wanted to see the disparity among casuals and hardcore fans, or at least see if it existed. I think most fans can agree that high-pace attrition fights are awesome, but I’d love to see if a major difference is there between quick KO’s and the mix or attrition.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 21, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For me
it comes down to displays of dominance, and wars. I don’t care much if it’s Brock Lesnar vs. Heath Herring for my dose of dominance, or Anderson Silva vs. just about anyone. But if all the fights go quickly, that gets awfully weak.
Also, the one thing that I think you need to isolate with a poll like this is anticipation and/or surprise. Build-up to a fight is probably at the very least as important as how the fight plays out, but the other ‘intangible’ component is seeing someone come out and do something completely unexpected (Brock/Frank II or Rashad/Chuck) that gets you literally on your feet.
The poll is mostly analyzing the technical appreciation of fights, and that is certainly the meat and potatoes of the issue. But the gravy is definitely emotional investment, however it’s achieved.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Jul 21, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 22, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would probably say some combination of options three and four are what would make an event exciting for me.
I’ll also think the stakes surrounding the event are an important factor in determining if an event is “incredible” or not. I have to admit, I do get caught up in the hype surrounding an event to an extent. An intense title fight or a fight between top contenders will always be more memorable to me than a good undercard bout. For me, the significance of the fights plays an important role.
by Andy R on Jul 21, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
While the above options contribute to my enjoyment, I like the surprise factor, the best example being the 2008 year-end event (UFC 92?). Franks’ outstriking Nog and Rampage’s revenge could have all been standalone event-makers, but to have them both in one night? Amazing.
by INGO B on Jul 21, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I like a good KO as much as the next guy but I like watching the more strategical fights
by Bandaka on Jul 21, 2009 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d say an incredible event is one where
a) I’m invested in each fight to some degree,
b) the outcome to any reasonably long fight is in doubt, including method and time
and c) when the winner isn’t in doubt, the fight ends quickly and entertainingly.
By those standards, only Lesnar/Mir from UFC 100 fits each one. I lost interest in Akiyama/Belcher once it became clear that neither would do anything to finish the other. GSP/Alves was entertaining because of GSP’s skill, but the end was never in any real doubt. I didn’t bother watching Fitch/Thiago after the first round. Hendo/Bisping had an out of nowhere knockout, but up until then it looked like a boring decision win.
It was a good event, but not spectacular.
by Foxskinrug on Jul 21, 2009 4:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think an option that is missing is upsets. I think that a fight is great when the fighter that everyone thinks is going to win gets taken out. One example is Lauzon vs Pulver. No one gave Lauzon a chance and he took out the more well known fighter. That to me is exciting.
by The_Vig on Jul 21, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When its a good event you just know,because you could watch it over again and not get bored
by RealIrish on Jul 21, 2009 4:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel like I was pretty lucky
because I was actually in attendance at one of my favorite events ever – UFC Fight Night: Diaz vs Neer. We got KOs, subs, and three round wars. Unfortunately, a lot of that was on the undercard. The entire crowd also tried their hardest to will Houston to survive just a few more seconds.
by rzor on Jul 21, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted for “Mix of submissions & TKO/KO’s, all finishes”. Wars on the feet are very boring to me, though I enjoy high-level grappling matches so long as they don’t end in “controversial” decisions (ie my guy lost :).
An all-submission event would truly be incredible, but extremely unlikely, and I suspect boring to the casual fan base.
"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.
"The training's going great for UFC 101. I'm making sure not to overtrain." - B.J. Penn.
by outlander78 on Jul 21, 2009 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good post. i liked epic wars with some finishes. a fight doesn’t have to have a finish to be a great fight imo. fedor/mirko randy/sylvia come to mind, but there would definetly have to be some exciting finishes. i like VIG’S upsets thrown into the mix. that always adds alot to the event.
by bdw on Jul 21, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Another advantage to the “all finishes” option is more fights. Usually, there are a few undercard fights that I’m looking forward to seeing, which I’ll only see if there are a few quick finishes. For me, getting 7 fights or more for my money overshadows a lackluster fight or two.
by madiq on Jul 21, 2009 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you started one of the poll options with the word "epic"
your results may be skewed, heh.
by ruckus on Jul 21, 2009 5:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For someone who is still relatively new to the sport...
Other than the ones that were already mentioned, what are some other cards that stick out in your mind as top-to-bottom excellent?
by flauyven on Jul 21, 2009 6:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pride Final Conflict 2005
Any of Pride’s Final Conflict events work, as they’re the semifinals & finals of the GPs. FC 2005 was special because of Fedor/CC.
For UFC, I’ve always loved TUF 6 Finale. UFN 6 was good – the main event (Karo/Diego) was of the best fights ever. UFN 11(Thomas/Florian) was fun. UFN 17 (Lauzon/Stephens) was fun. UFC 79. UFC 74. Those are personal favorites of mine – exciting, back & forth action, good finishes, great matchmaking.
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on Jul 21, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for me.....
Incredible is at least one major headliner that I’m a fan of. One epic upset. A knockout of two, in whatever round. A good submission. I really liked when serra whooped gsp. That was epic.
"What do you want from me?..... A Slap?"
by xtremecouture on Jul 21, 2009 11:58 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
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