Should the UFC create a "Super Heavyweight" division?
by ANance on Jul 2, 2009 5:14 PM EDT
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With all the hype going into UFC100 behind Brock Lesnar vs. Frank Mir, it got me thinking about the last few times Brock Lesnar has fought. I will be the first to say that any fighter should use his or her best abilities to beat an opponent, whether it's speed, power, reach or in Brock's case, his SIZE. It is pretty obvious to me that his size or weight has partially got him where he is today in the UFC. I think you will be hard pressed to find anybody who actually thinks Brock has more MMA skills/tools than say Randy Couture, but yet Brock was able to finsh him in Donkey Kong fashion. My suggesting a "super hw" division isn't just because of Brock, he is just the obvious example. There is a lot of guys that would fit into this division should it be created. Lets say there was a HW division from 205 to 240 lbs. That would put the SHW division from 240 to whatever the ceiling weight limit would be. I think they should have it be around 275-280 lbs. Lets take a look at who would currently fit into this category of SH. The number I am using are directly off the UFC's website for their current roster of HW fighters.
Mostapha Al-Turk 242 lbs.
Shane Carwin 262 lbs.
Gabriel Gonzaga 242 lbs.
Tim Hague 265 lbs.
Antoni Hardonk 245 lbs.
Heath Herring 250 lbs.
Cheick Kongo 240 lbs.
Brock Lesnar 265 lbs.
Justin McCully 240 lbs.
Frank Mir 240 lbs.
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira 240 lbs. (I just realized he has every vowel in his last name)
Cain Velasquez 240 lbs.
Mike Wessel 260 lbs.
All of these fighters, plus not to mention some of the big boys that will be coming in after the next TUF season, would in my opinion make for enough decent match-ups to carry its own division. I realize some of these guys would cut and try to get down to the HW division, but maybe some would bulk up a little bit and try their chance as a SHW first. Not only would this create a new division, but maybe it would entice some 205's to come up and try their luck at HW. Once again for fun sake, lets look at who maybe would take the shot at jumping to HW from 205.
Houston Alexander
Rashad Evans
Forrest Griffin
Matt Hamil
Rampage Jackson
Chuck Liddell
Shogun Rua
Thaigo Silva
Brandon Vera
Compile those possible names with the left over lighter HW from the original division and I think you have yourself enough big names to keep the interest in all divisions. Hopefully, it would create a small ripple effect down though out the other divisions and let guys that normally cut a bit too much weight feel more comfortable in fighting up a class. I think eventually the UFC will need this to create new and exciting match ups without having to have "catch weight" fights. With the weight classes as they are now things could get stale faster than they can develop new talent, so i think 155, 170, 185, 205, 240 and 275 just makes sense. Now on to your thoughts...here is the poll!
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Feel free to edit the post guys, I couldn’t figure out how to get the text next to the picture as you guys do.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
thanks Nate
My first attempt at writing a somewhat decent FanPost.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
Not an awful idea on its face. But in practice it would create a HW and a BROCK division. HW is already pretty thin and adding that weight would remove a lot of comp from Brocks place. Most guys are really close to 240 and I think all except Brock are within range to cut there. At HW, you have to remember that these guys mostly fight at there walking around weight. The comp might get better for a 240, but SHW would be a desert.
No, the UFC has more than enough divisions right now there is no need to add another one and limit the HW which is by far the thinnest division in mma period.
No, no… no fat guys please…
There is not so much Brocks around there to do so… unless you use the fat ones…
by Brasil com luvas on Jul 2, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions
Of course there should be...
so we never get a silly match-up like Lesnar vs Couture again.
by mythbuster on Jul 2, 2009 6:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Couture should fight LHW…
and the kid baby flyweight
by Brasil com luvas on Jul 2, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The aberration in the heavyweight division isn’t Lesnar cutting to 265lbs it’s Randy fighting at 220lbs. It’s very rare to see heavyweights that light because they can just cut to light heavyweight. Randy isn’t going to be around much longer and he isn’t bitching about guys all being bigger than him (everyone in the division is much bigger than him).
I think that Couture has the ability to beat the majority of the heavyweight division anyway. Only Carwin, Cain, Mir, Lesnar, and Nogueira would give him trouble, and I would put money on Randy in 2 or three of those.
You're just never going to let this argument go, are you
Why was Lesnar/Couture absurd but Sylvia or Gonzaga wasn’t?
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 2, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Silly Subo
It’s because Lesnar was a professional wrestler…duh
:-P
I put the "Donkey Kong" style in for you Myth...
I recently rewatched the Lesnar vs Couture fight on UFC Wired…maybe that swayed my feelings. As much as Randy tried, we all knew in the end what was gonna happen.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
I used to be a proponent of this, but no longer. I do think the weight classes should be restructured, with LHW going up to say 215lbs and add a class between lhw and mw.
160 lw
170 ww
180 mw
195 cruiser
215 lhw
265 hw
I think we would see more interesting fights at 195, than we would at SHW.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
I could get on board with this too...
But it still leaves 290 lb Brock beating on guys up to 70 lbs lighter than him. I guess I’m stuck with it.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
Then they need to cut weight of get better. Until he shows off a 6 or 7 fight win streak, I think we’re going a bit far in creating a new weight division because of a guy who has 2 wins in the Octagon.
by jebushchrist on Jul 2, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
If they moved light heavyweight to 215lbs then you would have guys that weigh up to 235 eyeing the cut, there wouldn’t even be guys 50lbs lighter. There just aren’t many 220 lb heavyweights because they eithe bulk up or cut to light heavyweight.
Also I don’t think you should confuse walking around weight with what guys weigh the day of a fight, a lot of weight is taken off during training before they even start to make the cut to fight weight.
I agree with Big JJ in D town
I like the set up of divisions…. the UFC needs a Cruiserweight Division
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on Jul 2, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Small quibble: why not lhw at 210? That way, other than welter to middle, all the classes are divided by 15 lbs.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jul 3, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Many UFC-only fans scoff at the idea of those freak show matches from Japan yet Lesnar fighting Randy is like Randy fighting Mini Manny Gamburyan.
It’s not the first time Randy had fought someone with a significant (30+ lbs) size advantage – in fact, it was his third straight fight doing so, and he won the first two.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 2, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not the same thing at all, there is a reason the athletic commissions set the weight classes up the way they did, the bigger a fighter the less the weight matters, the classes get more and more expansive as weight goes up in almost every sport that uses them because it makes less of a difference in the fight as size goes up. People with a lot of knowledge and experience in sports set these things up to start with, they weren’t arbitrary numbers just tossed out for no reason.
Oh and a idea of a Japanese freak show in weight would be Minowa vs Sapp where Sapp outweighed Minowa by at least 125lbs and had nearly a foot in height on him or where Nortje outweighed Sokoudjou by that much or more too, of course those fights also were an example of why size doesn’t matter as much as fighters get bigger too. Both those fights were one sided ass whoopings by the smaller man, heck the only big man to win in that tournament round was Choi and he was fighting a freaking baseball player.
This wouldn’t work as you’ve suggested.
If there’s a 240 HW division introduced nobody from that first list, save for Lesnar and maybe Carwin and Hague, would be fighting in the 275 division since they can all easily make 240. Similarly, nobody at LHW is going to move up unless their hand is forced like Franklin at MW.
My preferred weight classes are 130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 190, 205 and HW. This would see the four smallest weight classes rounded up by five pounds, 170 and 205 remain the same and 185 is split five pounds each way. Splitting heavyweight could be reviewed in a few years time if the division is dominated by Lesnar-sized fighters.
The thing is if you set the weight limit at say 240lbs then most of the heavyweights would cut down, it’s very rare that we see guys going up in weight, they almost always cut to gain every advantage possible, it wouldn’t be too hard for guys weighing 255 to 260 to trim down and cut to 240lbs and I doubt anyone would come up in weight (they would still be very small in the heavyweight division). Your Super heavyweight division would end up Lesnar and Carwin and a couple of guys no one has ever heard of.
Why punish Lesnar and Carwin because Randy Couture is an aberration in the heavyweight division? I mean the reason there is such a huge weight difference there is because Randy is a lightheavyweight who is extending his career by not cutting, not to mention Tim Sylvia is even bigger and heavier than Brock Lesnar but no one thought they should make an all Tim Sylvia division. It’s not the weight it’s the athleticism.
Why punish Lesnar and Carwin because Randy Couture is an aberration in the heavyweight division?
Making people fight people their own size is punishing them?
wow….
Remember, nobody made Randy fight Brock – Randy chose Brock.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 2, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
No matter how many times you remind people of that....
They’ll just pretend that isn’t the case and disagree with it.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on Jul 2, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he is the beloved prince… thats for sure… what baby wants, baby gets.
"I am going to give him a lesson in good behavior. First, I wanted to knock him out in the first round. But now I want to make it a long process and I want to enjoy it, and then I will knock him out in the 12th round."
Wladimir Klitschko
by Gunslinger20 on Jul 3, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
The beloved prince that left the company with the belt and then sued them.
No matter how many times you remind people of that…. They’ll just pretend that isn’t the case and disagree with it.
Sometimes a ridiculously silly argument remains ridiculously silly, no matter how many times someone repeats it.
Oh, and one of these days he says it, it may actually be relevant to the conversation.
AGAIN
Who do you blame for Couture/Lesnar? Who do you blame most?
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 3, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, should Dana have overturned that, should Randy have wanted Werdum, or should Brock have turned it down? Who are you mad at here?
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 3, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Randy chose to move up from fighting people his own size when he left the light heavyweight division, he is the aberration in Heavyweight not guys who weigh in at 265lbs. Why should the entire heavyweight division have to be be centered on a guy who not only chose to move up to extend his career and won’t be around much longer? Randy Couture isn’t the heavyweight division nor should it be centered around his size, he wasn’t forced to move up from light heavyweight he chose to be the small guy in these fights.
It was my point to start with, how could I miss it? Lets face facts guys in the UFC heavyweight division are for the most part close to the same size to start with, Randy is the one who is very small in the division. Heavyweight appears to have a wide weight spread because it’s the only division where everyone doesn’t cut to a specific weight but in no division is everyone exactly the same size. Heck Anderson Silva’s walk around weight is around 220 and he probably starts his cut to 185 from 200 or so, all these guys are all over the place in size.
Curent UFC heavyweight roster
Brock Lesnar (265)
Tim Hague (265)
Shane Carwin (260)
Mike Wessel (260)
Gabriel Gonzaga (256)
Frank Mir (251)
Heath Herring (250)
Stefan Struve (248)
Antoni Hardonk (246)
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (246)
Denis Stojnic (241)
Cain Velasquez (239)
Mostapha Al Turk (237)
Justin McCully (236)
Cheick Kongo (235)
Junior Dos Santos (234)
Pat Berry (233)
Randy Couture (220)
For comparison here is the list of UFC heavyweights Richard Wade put together last November:
Brock Lesnar (265)
Shane Carwin (264)
Tim Sylvia (261)
Gabriel Gonzaga (256)
Fabricio Werdum (256)
Frank Mir (255)
Neil Wain (254)
Heath Herring (250)
Antoni Hardonk (247)
Dan Evensen (244)
Eddie Sanchez (244)
Andrei Arlovski (241)
Josh Hendricks (238)
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (237)
Cain Velasquez (236)
Jake O’Brien (236)
Justin McCully (236)
Cheick Kongo (235)
Junior Dos Santos (234)
Christian Wellisch (230)
Brandon Vera (228)
Brad Morris (225.5)
Randy Couture (220)
Morris is gone, and Vera, Wellisch and O’Brien have already made the cut to 205.
There’s no reason to chop this division in half.
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 2, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea that’s why I put in the list from last February to show that weight is actually becoming less of a issue not more of one as time goes by, guys who weight less that 230lbs are just cutting to light heavyweight and several of the guys in the division have bulked up.
Rumored TUF 10 cast
Jim York 265lbs
Zak Jensen 265lbs
Matt Mitrione 265lbs
Wes Shivers 265lbs
Scott Junk 265lbs
Justin Wren 265lbs
Marcus Jones 262lbs
Roy Nelson 262lbs
Wes Sims 260lbs
Abe Wagner 260lbs
Mike Wessel 250lbs
Jon Madsen 240lbs
Brendan Schaub 240lbs
Kimbo Slice 235lbs
James McSweeny 230lbs
Darrill Schoonover 220lbs
I didn’t think Sims weighed that much, wow. I would bet a few of those listed at 265 are cutting to make that weight listed.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
Sims is big, like tall, long limbs, wide torso. Generally just big. But because he’s pretty much in proportion, he doesn’t look it.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jul 3, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Remove the 265lb limit
I think they should just removed the weight limit at heavy and leave light heavy at 205. I know it could possibly result in huge weight disparities but I do believe that most fighters do not cut more than 20lbs to make 265. Very few people would be optimally conditioned if they go over 285. Also, I hate the thought that someone loses because they are weight-drained and not because the opponent was better. To me the heavyweight champ should be able top beat everyone else not just everyone who can cut to 285.
I know it could possibly result in huge weight disparities but …
Also, I hate the thought that someone loses because they are weight-drained and not because the opponent was better.
But you don’t mind that someone loses because of huge weight disparity and not because the opponent was better?
The term 'Heavyweight Champion" has always implied certain things
Basically, I do not think anyone who comes in at over say the 280 or 285 which a fit Lesnar with no weight cut would come in at and be conditioned properly. The average heavyweight is 240 to 250 from what I can see, so they would only be giving away 30 lbs (proportionally what the average Alves opponent gives away :)) . Yes, it penalises the guys who fight at 220 to 230 but there are fewer and feweer of them. I think when you say heavyweight champ to someone it implies they are better than everyone not just people below a weight limit.
They would need to find/develop the talent first, I’m not really saying only go with what you have now. They could have it be a TUF looking for new fighters for a new division.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
I agree...
I think your right it might be a few years out, and with the popularity of the sport growing like it is, I wouldn’t be suprised at a lot more people to look at MMA as a career option. People that are former college wrestlers, pro wrestlers, undrafted college football players who are all big and athletic could make the jump.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
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