Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Ohio State And Florida Target 2013 Receiver Recruits

Dave Meltzer Makes the Case for Brock Lesnar

Brocklesnar_medium

There have been plenty of people slamming Brock's actions over the last few days.  Some have even claimed his actions were bad for mixed martial arts.  Dave Meltzer says the criticism represents an unfair double standard:

What if the Lesnar and Dan Henderson fights and postfights on Saturday night were transposed? If Lesnar had thrown that totally legal but devastating second blow on an already knocked-out foe – and remarked in his interview that he was doing it to shut Mir’s mouth – people would have spent the past week demanding that he be banned from the sport. And would Henderson have gotten nearly Lesnar’s heat if he had pulled the same postfight antics as Lesnar?

I don't think it's arguable that the response would have been different.  At the same time, Dan Henderson has built good will with the MMA fanbase for years, so it's no surprise fans are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  

Meltzer also makes an argument very few have made: that by childishly booing Lesnar for being a pro wrestler, UFC fans made Lesnar a "heel" on their own:

When Lesnar stepped out of the dressing room for his first match with Mir in February 2008, no debuting fighter in UFC history was ever so heavily booed. At that point, he had done nothing to be judged on in his UFC career – except that in his two previous careers, as a college wrestler for the University of Minnesota and as a pro wrestler for World Wrestling Entertainment, he had risen to the top...

In round two, as Lesnar had Mir on the ground and was punching his face in less than 30 seconds before the fight was over, there was a loud chant aimed at referee Herb Dean of "stand them up."

This was a first in UFC history. Not the chant itself, but it being done when a fighter was pummeling the other and actually seconds away from winning. It was the first time a crowd hated a fighter so much that they were willing to pervert the entire framework of what the sport is supposed to be – that a fighter should do what he can to finish a fight – simply because they wanted that fighter to lose so badly.

This is the strongest point he makes in the article.  The fans booed Lesnar not because of anything he did, but because they wanted to see him humiliated.  They hated him because he was a pro wrestler.  Let's recall it was Mir, not Lesnar, who was doing most of the pre-fight trash talking.  Lesnar did his job, and the crowd hated him for it.  Is it fair to hold those two years in the WWE against him?  Fans can boo and cheer whoever they want, but when you boo the hell out of a guy who just beat Frank Mir in his fifth fight, don't be surprised when he responds with a double bird.

It's Friday and ESPN is still covering the Brock Lesnar story.  Jim Rome covered the sport every day this week, and even had Forrest Griffin on today to talk about it.  I think the idea that this is somehow a bad thing for the sport is very short-sighted.  It would be a bad trend if a lot of people acted this way, but as Dave says in his article, almost every sport has its legendary villains.  One of them is apparently on his way back to the UFC as we speak.

I am not suggesting that Brock should continue acting the way he did.  I think he should really cool it now, but as an isolated event that got people to pay attention to a show that did an astronomical buyrate, it did nothing but help the sport.

Comment 149 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Brock Lesnar Brock Lesnar Brock Lesnar Brock Lesnar

Brock Lesnar?

Brock Lesnar!

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 17, 2009 5:01 PM EDT reply actions  

?

MMA=Brock Lesnar

Brock Lesnar!

by Jmend255 on Jul 17, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock Lesnar...

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 17, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock

Lesnar

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 17, 2009 5:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

But Kimbo is the face of MMA!!!

"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg

by SSreporters on Jul 17, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

KIMBO SLICE!!!!!

"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg

by SSreporters on Jul 17, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kimbo BROCK!!!

Wait…

BROCK SLICE!!!

Still no…..

BROCK LESNAR!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg

by SSreporters on Jul 17, 2009 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

But…

It’s not fair to say that Brock is hated just for being a pro wrestler. He has the kind of persona that rubs many people the wrong way, and, lest we forget, he was fighting in the semi-main event in his second fight. Maybe some felt that he hadn’t “paid his dues.”

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I think he was also hated because he hadn’t paid his dues, and he’s a WWE wrestler coming into MMA. I think both points are valid.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jul 17, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s now stifled a top-level BJJ HW, out-wrestled an MMA veteran of Japan & US, and KO’d an elder statesman of the sport. How many more chimerical “dues” do people want him to pay?

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 17, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think people want him to pay whichever one is the one where he gets knocked out

by phantasma475 on Jul 17, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Or:

1. He was the highest-paid guy on a card in his second fight, which happened to be the semi-main event.
2. At 0-1, He was first offered a past-his-prime Mark Coleman to bolster his resume, before getting a fight with Heath Herring, a fighter with a noted wrestling deficiency, and was the highest-paid guy on a card held in his hometown.
3. With a 1-1 record, he was awarded a title shot, and the main event of a UFC PPV, with his name on the marquee.
4. Before his fight with Mir, who beat him, he was being lauded as potentially the best heavyweight the UFC has ever seen. This was on a card that he headlined above Georges St, Pierre, quite possibly the best welterweight the UFC has ever seen.

Sure, he’s the UFC heavyweight champion, but to the extent that there’s a sense of ‘too much, too soon," many fans get rubbed the wrong way. Plus, he carries himself with none of the humility that one would expect from a fighter who was afforded opportunities that other similarly-situated wrestling-based heavyweights have not gotten. Do we think that he sincerely wants to prove himself to a rightfully skeptical fanbase? Or do we think that he relishes in flaunting his size, strength, status, wealth, and success, and couldn’t care less what we say about him?

In a lot of ways, Brock Lesnar is an avatar for how the hardcore MMA fanbase sees the UFC and Dana White — a dominant, brutal force of nature who will run over everyone in his path, and bludgeon them into submission…unapologetically.

Ask yourself how many articles about Brock Lesnar include the word “Bully,” and whether we, as a culture, typically celebrate bullies.

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

In a lot of ways, Brock Lesnar is an avatar for how the hardcore MMA fanbase sees the UFC and Dana White — a dominant, brutal force of nature who will run over everyone in his path, and bludgeon them into submission…unapologetically.

Here is to hoping he knocks them off their high horse and grinds them into the dirt.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 17, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

2. At 1-1, He was first offered a past-his-prime Mark Coleman to bolster his resume, before getting a fight with Heath Herring, a fighter with a noted wrestling deficiency, and was the highest-paid guy on a card held in his hometown.
3. With a 2-1 record, he was awarded a title shot, and the main event of a UFC PPV, with his name on the marquee.

Fixed.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, my fault, I was talking about UFC record; I shouldn’t have implied it.

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because that win over a 2-5 fighter is a) important and b) clearly the kind of thing that earns a title shot.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 18, 2009 7:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, Brock is the first fighter in MMA history to have a win over an opponent with a bad record.

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 18, 2009 11:51 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Any other organization on Earth and he might be defending against 2-5 guys.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, and it beats the hell out of getting knocked out by Junior Dos Santos and getting one.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your comment is an opinion

My comment is a fact.

Not sure what you’re arguing..

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 18, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

My comment is a question: why is counting the most meaningless win on his record so important?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 20, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

If an enormous, powerful, HW Gracie came into the UFC with a single fight under his belt, would people boo him?

by Foxskinrug on Jul 17, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its been almost a week and its all people can talk about. Like it or not but it is burnt in everybody’s mind. UFC 100 will be a milestone in history of the sport but so will Brock Lesnar win and post fight. The guy just cemented his place in MMA history in only 5 fights.

by pitbull187 on Jul 17, 2009 5:10 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the article is pretty well on the money, as long as Lesnar doesn’t pull a Timmah respect speach he’ll do fine

by proflex on Jul 17, 2009 5:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank you Rome...

Glad you wrote this… it only further presses the point I’ve been making for most of the week. It helped the sport.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jul 17, 2009 5:21 PM EDT reply actions  

I hope you’re right…but I can’t help but wonder if Brock’s continued dominance reduces casual fans’ incentive to analyze fights any further than, “the big strong dude will just hold him down and pummel him until he quits,” which is what we thought in elementary school about fighting. I hope that fans will still be driven to appreciate the nuances of MMA, rather than simply the brutality and simplicity.

I thought something similar about baseball during the Steroid Era, that it conditioned fans to care about home runs and home runs only, without appreciating the fundamentals, like hitting and running, sacrificing, and other aspects of so-called “small ball.”

But that’s not really a critique of Brock; it’s just a worry I have about the MMA learning curve.

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, hopefully someone a bit more technical comes along and beats him. That’ll open up thoughts once again.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jul 17, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are other fights on the card.

Those casual fans aren’t just going to be buying the PPV and then only watching Brock’s fight. They are going to watch every fight on the main card. They will get plenty of opportunity to see the more technical aspects of the sport in the different match-ups that appear prior to Brock’s fight. Not to mention the skill and technique Brock is actually using.

by mattman73 on Jul 17, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

THIS. next fight, brock will be cheered lustfully.

by bdw on Jul 17, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not by me.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 18, 2009 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

They were cheers the entire time from me. I think I may have been the only one there cheering him when he walked in. Of course not that you could hear me over the Metallica being played at over 200 decibels.

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 17, 2009 5:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

200 decibels? ahh come on dude it was clearly 175

by GetItOn on Jul 17, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure, I couldn’t hear.

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 17, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHAT?

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Jul 18, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Again, Mir has NO fan base.

by Jmend255 on Jul 17, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whoever fights Lesnar has a fan base by default now.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 17, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah, Shane Carwin should be thanking Lesnar for making people care about him. That, plus the fact that he trains with GSP and Jackson, “good guys” in this sport, will definitely help them market him…assuming he gets past Velasquez.

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holy cow! How many of you guys are out there?

by Jmend255 on Jul 17, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am a fan of Mir, mainly for his comeback story and commentating.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 17, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, me too – but only that far.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 18, 2009 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

My favorite point in Meltzer’s article:

The only opponent who didn’t disrespect Lesnar before the fight was Couture. The only opponent Lesnar didn’t trash talk afterward was Couture. Coincidence?

by andherewego on Jul 17, 2009 5:27 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

seemed like brock was pretty humble before the 1rst mir fight and after the loss.

by bdw on Jul 17, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except for the sore loser thing.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 18, 2009 7:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

He’s said since then he didn’t have respect for Couture (though since it was build-up to the Mir fight, who knows if he meant it, or was passive-aggression towards Mir). It’s the whole " Respect is for losers " quote.

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 17, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn’t respect his opponent in the ring, as that is the first step towards losing.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 17, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea that quote about not respecting Couture should be read in it’s entirety because it’s misleading to just pull out that one line.

by mattman73 on Jul 17, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

For saying what I wanted to but didn’t. We really should start using Lesnar MMA pics.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

 i was going to say the same thing. he’s no longer a wrassler so the pics make no since.

by bdw on Jul 17, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I used this because this article is about fans hating on him for being from WWE.

by Michael Rome on Jul 17, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

no more baby oil pics rome

by pitbull187 on Jul 17, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's chicken grease

Much finer sheen.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

it’s not just you rome. alot of writers still used the striated, constipated look that brock had in the wwe. does make sense why you used it though. :)

by bdw on Jul 17, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

His head is so out of place in that picture it looks like a bad photoshop.

"I'd love to be a Cheick Kongo looking brother that could actually move and do a lot of funky stuff - Jiu Jitsu, takedowns, kicks and stuff." - Jon Jones.

"The training's going great for UFC 101. I'm making sure not to overtrain." - B.J. Penn.

by outlander78 on Jul 17, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

This guy is the boss on every old video game that nobody could beat. then when you did you were amazed.

by pitbull187 on Jul 17, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love how

The Kevin Blackistone’s of the world will dismiss this as being another version of Pro Wrestling with all of the antics by Lesnar.

Then they’ll turn around and say that you don’t see that in boxing and the guys will always respect each other.

Name me one time the UFC ever had ring melees (Mayweather vs. Judah), sucker punches after the fight is over and the decision was final (James “Hitman” Butler), ear-biting (Holyfield vs. Tyson), or brawls during the WEIGH-IN (Lewis vs. Tyson).

I want the Lesnar thing to end now. I don’t condone what he did but people act as if this is the worst thing that has ever happened in the history of combat.

"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg

by SSreporters on Jul 17, 2009 5:40 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Although to be fair, every time those kinds of things happen, they are criticized as being disgraceful, or, specifically involving weigh-in skirmishes, “reminiscent of the WWE.”

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

But they blow anything UFC related

Out of proportion while downplaying the stuff that happens in boxing.

I’m a huge boxing fan but there is way too much BS that gets swept under the rug to fit the agendas of the promoters and MSM journalists (and a lot of that is ignorance).

"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg

by SSreporters on Jul 17, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree in principle, but look at it this way: Boxing isn’t going anywhere. There’s a century of history, iconage, and cultural significace. Disgraceful things may happen in and around the sport, and all it does is “put a black eye on the sport.”

MMA is the new kid on the block. They don’t know what to make of it. It’s still banned in a few states and provinces. The media today has a role to play in either legitimizing or illegitimizing it to the masses, and they’re f’ing clueless. So there’s a fear that if they endorse the sport too soon, and it ends up being viewed as a fad, or a blight on the sports world, their reputations will suffer. When disgraceful things happen in MMA, it isn’t just “a black eye on the sport,” it’s the end of the world, the “reason why MMA isn’t accepted by the mainstream,” or something that “sets the sport back.” MMA fans worry about whether something will get the sport banned again, and the media picks up on that paranoia, feeling like the sport’s place in the national consciousness is precarious, so it shapes how they view controversial events.

I don’t think things get swept under the rug in the coverage of boxing. It’s just that in the overall scheme of things within the sport, not enough is in jeopardy to transform things from sad spectacle to full-blown calamity, and activate the Outrage & Moralizing Sensor (O&MS). The O&MS is almost always deployed where UFC is invoolved, because it’s still, for lack of a better term, “on probation.”

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Name me one time the UFC ever had ring melees (Mayweather vs. Judah)

If we want to include PRIDE, there’s always Shogun/Coleman.

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 17, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

My friend and I still crack jokes about Julius.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wretched, slimy, reptilian motherfucker

-On Don King

Face it, Tyson is the most creative swearer & insulter around. Watch the new eponymous documentary on him.

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 17, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Greened.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 17, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

How will boxing survive?

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 17, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean without Mike Tyson? :D

It’s been since Tyson stopped fighting that their popularity with the general public really took a nosedive. The casual fan isn’t expecting prizefighters to act like Rhodes Scholars they expect them to act like guys who punch each other in the face for a living, saying and doing stupid shit is the expected behaviour. Heck it’s part of the appeal of a lot of these guys.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno. The casual fan seemed to be okay with Oscar De La Hoya…

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea there is never any controversy or “WTF” behaviour from him….

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Game over.

/Takes long shower

"And Joe for Matt Hughes, dislike may not be a strong enough adjective!" - Mike Goldberg

by SSreporters on Jul 17, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, I mean red gloves, with that outfit? Girlfriend please!

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 17, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is nothing at all wrong with disliking Brock Lesnar but this idea that he is somehow going to ruin the sport is just plain silly. Boxing not only survived Mike Tyson it thrived with him as it’s star and he was a convicted rapist who bit a guys ear off in the ring and did interviews where he talked about wanting to eat his opponents children. Brock said some not nice things about Bud Light and flipped off a crowd that was booing him. If Rampage didn’t hurt the sport by going on a police chase where he lost his mind and thought he was Jesus in a monster truck then Brock Lesnar’s mouthiness and abrasive personality are nothing to bother about.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 5:41 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Any update on if sable is ok? cant be easy to breathe under that

by pitbull187 on Jul 17, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

GUESS WHAT

Whatever Lesnar did at UFC 100 worked!. Idiots MMA fans all over the internet are STILL talking about it quite frantically.

The next card Lesnar is headlining will be the highest selling UFC event EVER!

The UFC invested in Brock Lesnar, and now he is spewing rich black oil from every orifice.

by goodbones on Jul 17, 2009 6:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Millions upon millions will be made from his presence into the UFC, and you know what? it will be good for the sport.

by goodbones on Jul 17, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Doesn’t hurt that it’s kind of a slow news week…

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tho it really shouldn’t be.
GSP beating Alves, dominating him, with a pulled groin.
Henderson’s horrible, yet effective, fighting style which KO Bisping (and the controversial after-shot).
These are things that would be top stories, but are pushed down the list by a big guy who can’t control himself.

("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)

by mythbuster on Jul 17, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Go and read Dave’s update for Sunday at wrestlingobserver dot com. It is a great piece of how hypocritical MMA fans are being about the “rasslin” influence.
Instead of reversing Brock and Dan, how about if Frank had won and did the same thing to a fallen Brock? The MMA fanboys would have gone ape and applauded the loss of the “fake wrestler”. They would have run out and bought rock hammers and started making carvinns in the sides of mountains with Mir face.
I agree with Brock on not drinking Bud Light. That stuff tastes like dirty water.

by Scott Whitt on Jul 17, 2009 6:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Instead of reversing Brock and Dan, how about if Frank had won and did the same thing to a fallen Brock? The MMA fanboys would have gone ape and applauded the loss of the "fake wrestler". They would have run out and bought rock hammers and started making carvinns in the sides of mountains with Mir face.

Oh, no doubt. But to be fair, people would have thought he was being unprofessional, even if they were cheering him lustily…which they would have been doing. That said, I have trouble seeing Frank Mir saying anything that wasn’t a variation of “Brock’s a tough dude, but I’m more experienced, and I taught him a lesson. I do wish him the best,” which, admittedly, is the classic “honorable victory” post-fight speech. But if he was histrionic right after beating Brock, it would have been excused as “adrenaline getting the best of him,” and we would have expected some statement of contrition in the post-fight press conference. That’s sincerely what I believe.

But again, that’s where having a track record of good sportsmanship comes into play.

by madiq on Jul 17, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a Mir fan (one of the few apparently) but come on Frank Mir is one of the sport’s big mouths, he trashed talked this fight for months and if he’d one he would of continued it after the fight too.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mir is one of the sport's big mouths?

Name one other fight he talked shit like this before. His head got figuratively bigger after the Nog fight than it literally did after Brock was done with him.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Frank has stated before that he will say stuff to get under a guys skin or to mislead them before a fight, it’s part of the game. Of course Mir hasn’t had much to talk about for the last couple of years except Lesnar.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It should also be pointed out that Mir talked so much trash about Lesnar in the last year people would think he was possessed by BJ Penn.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously?

Things like “He’s got fists like lunch boxes. Those things hurt” and “I wouldn’t want to get hit by him again”.

What a fucker..

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Brock Lesnar will never be able to beat me because he has no submission skills,” Mir told me. “What’s he going to do, knock me out? No one has never knocked me cold. What’s he going to do, arm bar me? No way. He is powerful. He is big. But martial arts isn’t filled with guys from the NFL. Lesnar had to grab the cage not to get taken down by Randy Couture, who’s 220 pounds. Lesnar isn’t the phenom that everyone makes him out to be. He started at 30. Have you ever seen a boxer start at 30 and become a world champion?”
"There’s no way anybody can roll with me for 25 minutes and not get tapped. It’s just impossible."

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s supporting my point. He didn’t become a shit talker until he beat Nog.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

“The toughest guys to fight are the guys who are thin, lean, long and their arms twist all the way out,” Mir said. “And the longer it takes for me to break a bone, the longer you have to escape. If you are a big, thick, muscle-bound guy who screams (as soon as an armbar is applied), then how long do you have to get out of the submission?”

Mir on breaking Tim Sylvia’s arm in four places.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh..

I’m not saying he’s never made a comment that could be construed as shit talking, but he’s never been a shit talker. If you want to chase down quotes, chase down quotes of his on Nog before and after the fight. It’s two different guys. One Frank Mir entered the octagon that night and switched shorts with another.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 17, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

The quote about Brock Lesnar will never beat me was from before the Nog fight. Mir didn’t talk crap about Nog, but he did play some mind games in interviews, he didn’t have some giant change of attitude after the Nog fight.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock as the “bad boy of MMA”(AKA the new Tito) isn’t going to hurt the sport at all, if other fighters started immitating his behaviour then yes it could become a long term issue.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also the UFC can’t have Brock Lesnar becoming the main attraction rather the UFC itself.

The UFC has to keep Brock in his place so that they can have the upper hand in all future negotiations.

by mattman73 on Jul 17, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

that’s part of it…

by mmalogic on Jul 17, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

The reality is that Lesnar's game only lasts as long as he's winning.

The octagon is the great equalizer. We’ve had champs that talked a lot of smack and we’ve had champs that hardly said two words and let their actions speak for him. As soon as someone shuts Lesnar up with their performance, then we will no longer have to worry about his antics.

The only way that Lesnar-like antics become the focal point of any MSM attention UFC may get is by staging fights. And the UFC is real. Right?

A real Poppy Palace would have a lot more chocolate, and a moat with otters. -Poppy

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 18, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I never thought I'd say this

but I agree with you, mmalogic.

("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)

by mythbuster on Jul 17, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Part of the reasoning is what mattman73 said, so, it makes sense.

by Jmend255 on Jul 17, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is good stuff, in my opinion.

by Cannon Jacques on Jul 17, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

That needs to be green.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 17, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Remember once...

I was reading sherdog, and someone tried to show some understanding for Kimbo Slice’s situation… even feeling bad for him, because he himself had never claimed to be a world beater, yet the moment he lost he got all the heat for it… The response from another poster was… Kimbo made the decision to take all the positives that came with his position and therefore has to accept the negatives… I think the same applies for Brock…

He has to accept that his position is going to be one of major scrutiny, and therefore he has to watch what he says or does… That same attention is why he got paid (rumored) 3 mill for this last fight…. the same reason he got a title shot after going 1-1 in the UFC… etc. Nobody gets to enjoy one side of the coin, nor should we expect them too.

by Loot on Jul 17, 2009 9:44 PM EDT reply actions  

The thing is that for Brock this might not really be a negative for him to accept, hell it’s been a week and people are still talking about him (a lot). He seems to not only accept the fan reactions to this stuff he relishes in them.

I remember seeing people writing on the Sherdog forum about Kimbo having an unfair advantage because his beard armor kept him from getting knocked out. Sherdog is funny like that.

by who me on Jul 17, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree

Brock doesn’t seem to mind the negative attention, it’s his fans that are getting upset.

("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)

by mythbuster on Jul 18, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is also the interesting aspect of how Brock detractors distorted the shit out of what actually happened with Brock and the NFL. There was a lot of talk about how he bombed out and failed..etc. When in truth he did amazingly well for someone who hadn’t played football since they were 16 and if he wanted to he would have worked his way onto a pro squad. In all honesty he was very successful with the trial but didn’t feel like going through the practice squad or NFL Europe route. When you consider that 99% of people who play college football aren’t good enough to make a practice squad and this guy who hadn’t played since he was 16 had a team legitimately interested…that isn’t bombing or failing.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 17, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep.

Brock was basically given the same opportunity that the Patriots gave Steven Neal. The only difference is, Brock declined the offer.

Neal didn’t just walk onto the Patriots active roster and start playing right away. He had to serve a year or two on their practice squad, and then rode the bench for another year or two before he worked his way into the starting lineup. If Brock had been willing to invest two or three years in honing his football skills like Neal, I am sure he would have enjoyed similar success. Fortunately for MMA fans, Brock chose to invest those two or three years in learning MMA instead.

by Steve4192 on Jul 19, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent parallel

The Steven Neal example is really a perfect one.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock comment about gays. It really pissed me off. I spent 6 years serving a tour in Afghanistan and two in Iraq and there are two groups of people that if you attack….I lose all respect for ya, Hispanic immigrants(those that don’t have full US citizenship when they enlist) and homosexuals. These are the two groups that serve in the US military that get zero respect from the average US citizen and a lot of heat from ignorant a—holes that aren’t willing to serve their country in the same way. Its my pet peeve . Add in the fact that Brock has a tattoo that looks like he is getting titty f——ed by a penis on his chest, he is the last person I want to hear that the guys I left over there that didn’t chase after women were burning in hell.

To be clear, I respect the hell out of the guy as a fighter…he just hit a sensitive issue with me and I am sure I am in the minority here about it. Now that I type this out, I feel like an a—hole for bringing this up but this is the only thing that bothers me about him.

"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace
"

by UMBC Oriole fan on Jul 17, 2009 11:52 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

to be clear...

I was annoyed by the boos against Brock during the fight. I thought he did a tremendous fight against Mir(I type this as I write this I am watching a reply of his match). I just get into soapbox mode about gays. Its my pet peeve…….

"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace
"

by UMBC Oriole fan on Jul 17, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ugh

I just notice my typing errors. I apologize.

"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace
"

by UMBC Oriole fan on Jul 17, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

No reason to feel like an asshole man, he struck a nerve with you and you are more than welcome to your opinion. A lot of people might not feel the same way as you but you have very personal reasons for your convictions, if I was in your shoes I’d probably feel the same way.

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 17, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can tell the character of a man by how he treats those who can’t defend themselves.

Keep firing Assholes!

Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by Ubernoober on Jul 18, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

And of a nation.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t really have a problem with Brock’s stance on gays. As an American, it is his right to feel that way. As long as he is not infringing upon their rights, he can wallow in his homophobia for all I care. As Voltaire once said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”.

by Steve4192 on Jul 19, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

The article also states that there are 9 UFC fighters currently on the roster who come from pro wrestling.

Can anyone name the other eight?

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on Jul 17, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Mankind?!?!

joke…..

"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace
"

by UMBC Oriole fan on Jul 18, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rey Mysterio Jr…

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ok

I lol’d.

Seriously though, who doesn’t love that guy?

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Jul 18, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some names that come to mind.

Coleman
Soszynski
Tom Lawlor
McCully
Trigg

Tito and Cro Cop have done appearances for pro wrestling promotions as well.

Barnett still does pro wrestling tours in Japan between fights but nobody gives him shit about it because it isn’t WWE.

by rabrown on Jul 18, 2009 4:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

This guy?

("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)

by mythbuster on Jul 18, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

awww yeah, motherfuckin’ Teila!

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on Jul 18, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

("you don’t like Brock" – helping Weobo out)

by mythbuster on Jul 18, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bullshit about Brock not being hated off the bat....

After he lost against Mir he went to talk to Rogan and the fans were booing. For no reason. They were trying to throw the loss in his face.

Mir and his camp talked so much trash leading up to this fight about Brock not being skilled and this and that and how they would win even easier this time.

Mir even said that Brock wouldnt even show up because he was scared.

He got wrecked. Enough said. Only thing I thought was bad was the crap about the bud light and then getting in Mirs face. Thats it.

Hendo hit Bisping late admitted to it. Mentioned in the post fight that he did it to shut his mouth and then everybody loves it and makes some awesome photoshop pictures of it.

Thing is, Neither of those two things will kill mma.

by IncomingF5 on Jul 18, 2009 1:24 AM EDT reply actions  

“…except that in his two previous careers, as a college wrestler for the University of Minnesota and as a pro wrestler for World Wrestling Entertainment, he had risen to the top”

Because we’re skipping his NFL “career.” He really rose to the top in that one. :-)

“Is it fair to hold those two years in the WWE against him?”

No, it’s the two years in New Japan Pro Wrestling I can’t abide.

“I am not suggesting that Brock should continue acting the way he did. I think he should really cool it now, but as an isolated event that got people to pay attention to a show that did an astronomical buyrate, it did nothing but help the sport.”

I completely agree – there’s no bad publicity! And if he went to a state where it wasn’t illegal and raped a cow it’d be even better for the sport!

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 18, 2009 7:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awesome.

And you didn’t even have to mention that he was injured in a motorcycle accident just before the tryouts.

by rabrown on Jul 18, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Additionally

The Vikings were already stacked at DT, and our FO was quoted as saying that had he played any college football and entered the draft, he would have been selected in top ten based on his athletic ability and upside alone. He came into camp as a “camp body” (if you watch football you know the term) and ended up impressing coaches so much that they didn’t want to turn him loose.

The guy didn’t want to play in Europe or for any team other than Minnesota (which would mean moving away from Alexandria). What a monumental failure..

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 18, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right...

he’d have made a pro roster if he was willing to play outside of Minnesota…or if he went to Europe to get a year’s seasoning. He was one of the last cuts of the year for the team. People really distort the reality of the NFL experiment. I’m fine with not liking the guy because of his personality but you still should remain in the real world while shitting on him..since there is plenty to work with.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 18, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, so in the real world he was so excellent that he rose to the top of the NFL like Dave said? Or no?

Dave is glossing over a lot of shit – yes?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 20, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

All of which is a long way of getting around to, “Yes Jemal, he didn’t rise to the top of that career.”

Right?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 20, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know what?

Part of it is having watched baseball just come out of a two decade-long love affair with juicing.

It’s hard for me to root for the ‘roid monkey. I know it’s widespread in the world of MMA and I know he’s not alone, but he’s clearly the posterchild, no?

A real Poppy Palace would have a lot more chocolate, and a moat with otters. -Poppy

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 18, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Wha?

Guilty until proven innocent? You might want to skip the pond if you’re going to talk about that shit. And what about baseball coming out of juicing? Manny just got hung up for it.

"The reason a rabbit outruns a fox is because the rabbit is running for his life and the fox is running for his dinner."

by Blackout612 on Jul 18, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brock Lesnar has had the same size and physical conditioning since he was in college (not to mention he has been tested for roids numerous times from when he was competing in college till now and has never failed one). Just because he is a large and powerful man doesn’t mean that he must be a “roid monkey”, he has always been a large and powerful man. His size and condition proves nothing but he works hard at it.

by who me on Jul 18, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s an idiotic thing to say.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Objection!


Where’s the evidence? He’s never tested positive.

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 18, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Posterchild? No, not even close. I would say someone like Sean Sherk, who actually tested positive and paid dearly for it would be the posterchild if there is one in MMA.

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 18, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about anyone that doesn’t fucking routinely pass drugs tests for competition?

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 18, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

gentlemen,

and I mean this in the most gentle, humane way I can convey it: c’mon. You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

A real Poppy Palace would have a lot more chocolate, and a moat with otters. -Poppy

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 19, 2009 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

You’re right, let’s just accuse every muscular fighter of being on roids. I’m sure he wasn’t the only one on the card. Thiago Alves HAS to be on them- look how big his shoulders are. Urijah Faber is pretty stacked for a little guy, he’s definitely juicing. Who else guys, help me out here, we need to call out everyone who even appears like they might be taking something.

Some people might say that winning a fight makes you a better fighter but I don’t agree with that.- BlueberryMuffin

by ufc4 on Jul 19, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

okay, Bloody Elbow, I'll go one more for you,

and I understand you’re claiming the high road: empirical versus anecdotal, and empirical trumps. I’m with you 98 times out 100. But there are certain things I cannot ignore in this situation.

He also completely acts like he’s on steroids. So we’re at looks like, sounds like, acts like.

Again, I understand where most of you are coming from. I understand he’s never tested positive. Could be that he’s naturally big and has worked superhuman-hard to reach his current physique. Could be that he’s prone to all kinds of random emotional outbursts (I know I’ve seen him walk off of at least two interview sets). Could be this man who has wrestled/fought professionally for ten years doesn’t understand that publicly and aggressively insulting one of the main sponsors of the entire event is a bad idea. Maybe he’s a combination of crazy big and socially inept.

And it could be there’s another reason.

And, as a whole, BE, I think my claim at least deserves rational responses. That’s what I’m after. But by all means, continue to respond with derision, insults, sarcasm and snark.

A real Poppy Palace would have a lot more chocolate, and a moat with otters. -Poppy

by Leopold Bloom on Jul 19, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

"I don't want to knock my opponent out. I want to hit him, step away and watch him hurt" - Joe Frazier

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Predicting A Collegiate Wrestler’s Development
Shogun_logo_small
UFC’s Hopes For A Stadium Show In Sao Paulo Appear To Be Dead
Small
The Downfall of Diego Sanchez
Small
The time is right for a superfight, and it doesn't involve Anderson
391807_10150399618817701_750257700_8470850_1424416169_n_small
1 in about 7 billion!  :D

Recent FanPosts

Small
Muay Thai camps in Thailand
Blav_small
OT: Help out my short film
Badr_hari3_small
War Machine explains what happenned and asks for support
Warrior_small
MMA Transaction Wire: February 4-10
Bv_small
BE Trivia Night

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

MMA Rankings

USA Today / SB Nation Consensus MMA Rankings