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The History of Theatrics in Combat Sports Part I - Clay vs. Liston

07_beatles_ali_medium In the wake of Brock Lesnar's win over Frank Mir at UFC 100 we are experiencing a focus on personality and theatrics in the fight game.  Rather than allow this to simply be passed over as a product of a former WWE star I will be taking a look back at the history of theatrics in combat sports in a multi-part series beginning today with Sonny Liston vs. Cassius Clay.

-------------------------

Clay comes out to meet Liston and Liston starts to retreat, if Liston goes back an inch farther he'll end up in a ringside seat. Clay swings with a left, Clay swings with a right, just look at young Cassius carry the fight. Liston keeps backing but there's not enough room, it's a matter of time until Clay lowers the boom. Then Clay lands with a right, what a beautiful swing, and the punch raised the bear clear out of the ring. Liston still rising and the ref wears a frown, but he can't start counting until Sonny comes down. Now Liston disappears from view, the crowd is getting frantic and our radaring stations have picked him up somewhere over the Atlantic. Who on Earth thought, when they came to the fight, that they would witness the launching of a human satellite. Hence the crowd did not dream, when they laid down their money, that they would see a total eclipse of Sonny.

Those words were written by Cassius Clay prior to his first fight with Sonny Liston.  As much as we romanticize Ali now the truth is, there was a large segment of the population that could not stand this young black man conducting himself in such an immodest manner.  In fact, LA Times writer Jim Murray had the following to say about the Liston/Clay fight:

the most popular fight since Hitler and Stalin--180 million Americans rooting for a double knockout. The only thing at which Clay can beat Liston is reading the dictionary. . . . His public utterances have all the modesty of a German ultimatum to Poland but his public performances run more to Mussolini's navy.

Obviously at the time this was not Muhammad Ali, American Hero.  Instead it was the shamelessly brash Cassius Clay, who was going to get his mouth shut by the 7:1 favorite Sonny Liston and his crushing power punches.  There were practically no sports reporters willing to go on record as giving Clay a chance, most even going as far as to say that Liston would knock out the kid in under a round.

Star-divide

The fight almost didn't happen due to Clay's association with Malcolm X and his rumored conversion to Islam.  With Liston being such a big favorite it was a very real possibility that Clay's conversion would kill whatever interest was left in the bout.  In the interest of not having the bout canceled and "selling" the fight to the public Clay agreed to wait until after the fight to announce his conversion (the day after the fight he announced he had changed his name to Muhammad Ali).

In the weeks building up to the fight Ali was showing up at Liston's training camp with a busfull of press and his entourage shouting insults at Sonny while he worked out.  He kept up the outbursts leading to the weigh-ins before the fight which saw Ali do the following:

 

Debate rages to this day as to if the challenger believed all that he said about Liston or if he was simply "talking to himself" to build up his confidence as Floyd Patterson asserted.  Ali himself had my favorite take on his hype and how much he believed.  From David Remnick's great book "King of the World":

Finally, the writer Mort Sharnik said, "Cassius, all these things you're saying about Liston, do you really mean them? Do you really think you're going to beat this guy?"


"I'm Christopher Columbus," he said slowly. "I believe I'll win. I've never been in there with him, but I believe the world is round and they all believe the world is flat. Maybe I'll fall off the world at the horizon but I believe the world is round."

The world did prove to be round for Cassius as things went exactly as he had predicted; he battered Liston with speed and movement forcing the champ to quit on the stool before the seventh round.  Following the win Cassius celebrated by declaring himself "the greatest" "king of the world" and talking about how Liston was not even a match:

The rematch highlights the fact that Clay (now Ali) was still seen as a villian as he was booed upon entering the ring and during fighter introductions.  After landing a right hand in the first round which knocked Liston down Ali stood over him shouting to "get up and fight, sucker!" and posing over his downed opponent while the referee (former world champ Joe Walcott) tried to make the count resulting in the most famous picture in combat sports history:

Associated_20press_clayliston_1965_l_medium

One takeaway from this article for MMA fans should be that what Brock Lesnar does is not all that different from Ali in his prime.  Is he as eloquent or graceful in his style as Ali?  Absolutely not.  But he is a man who sells fights despite a personality that flies in the face of what is expected and appreciated by the majority of the press and fanbase.

And the real question is this:  What is more of a pro wrestling tactic?  For Brock Lesnar to be himself despite how abrasive his personality really is...or for what has become the norm in MMA.  For guys to talk a big game, fight, and then hug before saying that they were just "selling the fight."  Isn't that what sports entertainment is based around?  Pretending that a storyline exists where it does not to get people interested in watching an event?

I know some people won't like hearing it, but right now Brock Lesnar reminds me of Ali much more than he reminds me of a WWE star.  He is a guy who says and does what he wants despite what people think and lets that sell fights for him.  Guys like BJ Penn are the ones truly practicing sports entertainment tactics with pre-fight trash talk only to say afterward that they didn't mean it and were jusy hyping a fight for the fans.  Creating a storyline out of thin air is a WWE move, just being a jerk because that is your true personality is not.

I just want to say one last thing.  Certain members of the MMA press need to study up on thier combat sports history and stop pretending that somehow Brock Lesnar is a first of his kind personality shattering the norms of combat sports.  To me he is just another outspoken combat athlete trying to prove that his world is round.

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I want to quickly say...

not all of these will tie back in to Lesnar in the end. But I just had to throw the end portion in as I’ve wanted to say it for a few days now and hadn’t yet been able.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 1:58 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd

I had this exact conversation with my dad. He’s not an MMA fan but even he was asking me about Lesnar’s antics, using that as a platform to bitch about how ‘only kids’ like MMA. And I immediately went to Ali. Frazier hated Ali for years after their wars because of the shit Ali talked. He was the master of shit talking, the first true artist of it, and he was also incredibly popular. Weird?

A lot of people bought Ali’s fights to watch him lose – either because they were racists or hated the fact that he dodged Vietnam or simply fans of his opponents – but he brought in the people that weren’t just fans of him or his opponents. He took hater’s money – and that’s what Brock is doing. Great time for this series.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

But Ali also made those people into Ali fans.

Very different than what Brock is doing by flipping off the fans.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did you listen to the crowd reaction after he did that? Went from boos to cheers.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 14, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I felt like that was a reaction from the already-Lesnar-fans. No way to tell though.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a fan. None of those antics bothered me, if anything, I found them refreshing.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

But were you a fan before the antics is the question.

Being divisive works in the short-term, but ask Karl Rove how that “just try to win 51% of the vote” strategy worked out in the long run.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wasn’t really pro or against. I was already interested in him in terms of his potential as an athlete, but I’m certainly more interested in him as a personality.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

In MMA, people vote with their dollars. It’s all about maximizing buys, which means luring – or antagonizing – groups that would normally not watch.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s only one factor of Brock’s income: he’s also trying to sell beef jerky and lame t-shirts. And being divisive doesn’t sell jerky.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being divisive is like being hot – it sells everything.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Being hot doesn’t work nearly as well as you’d think for selling adult diapers.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe if she was denouncing something.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

it took a decade for Ali to become a baby face

he was pure heel throughout the 1960s.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even to Black fans?

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well...

fine. A reasonable segment of the MMA world like Lesnar. So what’s the difference? Yes, it’s not as race driven but we’re getting pretty far away from the point of the article.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, as I’ve said elsewhere, Lesnar is polarizing, because to hardcore fans he’s the antithesis of what MMA stands for, so liking Lesnar is marking yourself as potentially “not a real MMA fan.”

Many casual fans and pro wrestling converts gravitate to Lesnar, and that’s a HUGE basis for some of the animosity by hardcores. That he doesn’t uphold “the code,” nor does he apologize then he transgresses, just provides more fuel for the fire.

Plus, Lesnar is scary in a way that Ali wasn’t.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

This straw man “hardcore fan” who doesn’t like Lesnar is pretty unconvincing stuff. Near as I can tell there are an awful lot of committed and zealous MMA fans who appreciate Lesnar despite—and sometimes due to—his antics.

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 14, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

And there are hardcore fans (hi!) that don’t like him for reasons other than his pro wrestling.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 15, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I hope I didn’t imply that his pro wrestling past was the sole basis for people disliking him.

by madiq on Jul 15, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t say you did – but it’s a point a lot of people make and I was doing a drive-by preemption. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 15, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I never knew that it was controversial to say that (a) hardcore fans exist, albeit not as a monolithic, single-minded entity, and (b) that much of the criticism of Lesnar comes from the hardcore community.

Also, as a person that has seen an internet message board flamewar or two, I can see a difference between the types of debates that Lesnar engenders, and those that say, Matt Hughes engenders. But perhaps your experience has been different, and illuminates deeper insights.

by madiq on Jul 15, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

But the point of the article is to draw similarities between Ali and Lesnar. So far those appear to be:

a) People didn’t like what they had to say.

And that’s about it. People didn’t like Ali for a number of what we would today consider unfair reasons: he was black and proud, he was anti-Vietnam war, he was muslim. Some folks liked to point out that he was cocky, but how many of those would have liked him even if he had been a humble, proud, black, anti-war muslim?

On the other hand, people dislike Brock for perfectly cromulent reasons: he’s a homophobe, he’s a sore loser, he’s a sore winner, and on and on and on. What other similarities were you trying to show?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ali wasn’t a “sore winner” in the clip after he beat Liston???

Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jul 14, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh sure. But who went from being an Ali fan to a Liston fan after that?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

tons of people

were rooting for someone to shut Ali’s mouth after that fight. Liston was a non factor since his career was basically over.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

True but maybe that was his reaction to the fact that everyone expected Ali to lose.

http://andheneverwilldies.ytmnd.com/

by monkeyfightclub! on Jul 14, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Legend is...

Ali was yelling at Liston for taking an unbelievable dive in that photo… in other words “get up; no one will believe that!”

 Liston was involved with the mob for years and rumors swirled around his death. This all comes to me from all the dads I know; I am not old enough to have seen it myself.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on Jul 14, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

there are a lot of rumors of his taking a dive but that anchor punch lands really solid to the temple. Other versions of the “Liston took a dive” conspiracy theory are that he was scared of the Nation of Islam whom Ali was fully involved with at the time to just not wanting to get beaten up for a full fight again.

As with most conspiracy theories it’s probably bullshit with the most likely answer being true…he got caught and knocked out.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 15, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

So the question is: did Ali think he knocked him out or that he was taking a dive at the moment?

Regardless: All of this just serves to prove how superior MMA is. Hendo woulda just jumped on him either way. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 15, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

But I’ll say this about Lesnar: If he came up the conventional way, going from the NCAAs to the Olympic trials, to a respected MMA gym, to small shows, then maybe winning TUF, fans wouldn’t be so hard on him. It’s the fact that the pro wrestling career wasn’t just a disreputable excursion, it was a SHORTCUT. He felt that he didn’t have to earn his way to the top, and the promotion rewarded that sentiment.

In that fashion it’s similar to why people have had such a problem with Kimbo Slice (his disreputable diversion was YouTube-filed back-alley brawling)…except imagine if Kimbo was never humble or respecful of his opponents.

Now contrast that with Muhammed Ali. He was an Olympic boxer who represented his country and won a gold medal, but came back to a segregated America that saw him as second-class. So he became brash, outspoken, and larger than life, but he ended up MAKING AMERICA LOVE HIM FOR IT. It’s a story that has far more nuances than merely “people didn’t like him,” and perhaps that’s what we’re challenging here.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was simply that for being himself and doing/saying what he wants there are more similarities to Ali than to this completely formless idea of “he is just being a pro wrestler”

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

And my point stands: two very different selves that they were being, yes?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well yes...

and I clearly said:

Is he as eloquent or graceful in his style as Ali? Absolutely not. But he is a man who sells fights despite a personality that flies in the face of what is expected and appreciated by the majority of the press and fanbase.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is the point I was making.

I never once said “they are exactly the same…there are no differences”

I’m simply saying that there are some parallels in the theatrical area

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that goes to another point I was trying to make earlier: when Brock is acting that way, he isn’t acting. Much more of what Ali did was for show.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some of it was real...

some of it was for show…
some of it was to hype himself up to the public…
some of it was to hype himself up in his own mind…

I think the same goes for Lesnar.

I think a lot of his behavior is real, some is for show.

But regardless…you know where i stand

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only question left is: which beloved sports star will you drag through the mud to build up Brock Lesnar next?

:-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking Jackie Robinson...

it keeps the race thing going

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

mmhmm

racism

"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand

by rockied on Jul 14, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was joking...

hopefully you picked up on that

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah!

(Oops…)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 15, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well...

there was a segment who felt like he was setting them back a little bit by being so outspoken, but yes, the majority of black boxing fans saw him as a hero.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you have to admit: he wasn’t entirely a heel. And he was winning fans with each fight, not flipping off the crowd.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

not entirely a heel

but when he became a member of the Nation of Islam he crossed a line even more many black fans. And when he did things like brutally beat the British guy who insisted on calling him Clay instead of Ali, it was seen as a sadistic outrage.
Remember Ali’s political stands got him banned from the sport for several years.
He was not a loved figure in the 1960s.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

British guy? Which was that?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ernie Terrell

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

at whom he screamed

“what’s my name Uncle Tom?” during 15 rounds of punishment

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I was confused because he isn’t British.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Nate was clearly confused

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

We all have off days.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dont

"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand

by rockied on Jul 14, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

They're all bad

"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand

by rockied on Jul 14, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

He might be talking about Ernie Terrell, who wasn’t British, but did get beat bad for “disrespecting” him.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

But the difference is to me that when I see these Ali things, I have a smirk on my face and I can’t help but love it even when I shouldn’t. With Lesnar, I just think he’s a douchebag that thinks his shit don’t stink. Maybe because I didn’t grow up in the Ali era and that I’m a product of his reverence but when I read that poem he wrote it does nothing but make me smile.

by Zack Gobie on Jul 14, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Obviously...

I think if Brock wrote poetry about beating up Mir or whoever it wouldn’t be nearly as fun as Ali and a lot of Ali’s haters were white guys who didn’t like the cocky black…but it’s hard to appreciate how disliked he was at the time of these fights because of the reverence we have for him.

I doubt that Brock will have that long term effect, but I think in time we will grow to appreciate him a little more. Not to Ali levels…but still.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Something I’ve found is that in America, nothing will make you more popular than being able to talk trash and back it up every time. If Tito had been able to beat Chuck and Randy I have no doubt in my mind he could have reached legendary status with the way he can hype a fight. I think Brock took it a bit too far with the sponsor thing and getting in Mir’s face, but for the most part I think you’re right.

by Zack Gobie on Jul 14, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great article.

by attgnp on Jul 14, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

thanks

it’s very appreciated

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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

The difference being

that Ali was a brash, clever, and a genius in the ring, and Brock is a redneck with self-control issues.

Honestly: a man with that level of maturity being compared to Ali? You must be kidding.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions  

dude

my late father the WWII vet would blush deep red at the mere mention of Ali and grumble “that draft dodger’s name is Clay”.
In the 1960s Ali was HATED by hard hat America.
I doubt Brock will ever be a hero like Ali became, but let’s face it, taunting Sonny Liston was pure theatre and not heroic at all. His fighting performance was, but that’s a separate thing.
Ali is a hero for his charisma and his resistance to Viet Nam, not his bullshit antics.
Ask Joe Frazier what a hero Ali is. Or a young George Foreman.
Ali played those two guys and turned them into “Uncle Toms” and they didn’t deserve that at all.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

"dude"

Who are you responding to? What does any of that have to do with what I said?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s saying they’re both hated and that was both of their goals.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

not quite

I don’t think Lesnar’s really in full control.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

and I think Ali's antics

had as much to do with psyching out his opponent as anything else.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with your points here. Lesnar not in full control, but also not trying to be in control because of the money. Ali mostly about psyching out the opponent, more so then generating money.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that’s what makes Lesnar’s antics even more strange: his antics are strongest in ways that a) don’t matter to the opponent because he already lost, and b) cost him money by being a jerk to sponsors. You know?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No pub is bad pub. Maybe BudLight will put him on the payroll. It might lead to good things for him.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

“I drink Bud Light because my boss makes me. It’s smooth and refreshing, and alcoholic enough to make you say the stupidest things.”

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I drink bud light beer with buzz lightyear.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t be surprised if Lesnar ends up getting a very lucrative beer sponsor after this. If not Budweiser, than Miller (Coors)…

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 14, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

You think Dana will allow him to wear a Coors logo into the ring?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 15, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then he should have said anything that would back that point up. Which he didn’t.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Since Nate already said that that wasn’t his point, you’re arguing from a strange angle.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was my point

word putting in mouths is a foul.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, what? First “not quite” now “that was my point”?

Also: we have fouls now?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I rejected Subo's

over simplification of my point not what I said.
I didn’t say it was Ali’s goal to be hated.
I said that his actions caused many to hate him, just as Lesnar’s actions make many hate him.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you see why I’m confused?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don’t think Ali wanted to be hated by certain people?

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don't know

i always took it as attempts to psych out his opponents.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, he wanted to be hated by racists. That much is clear.

Me too.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Same.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point is

since you’re slow today….
Both Brock and Clay pissed off tons of people with their theatrical antics.
There are many valid parallels and some key differences and Brent explored some of each in the piece.
to dismiss the very good piece with “honestly you must be kidding” is neither informative nor good argument.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

This Lesnar hatred is driving normally sane commentators to slip up. I forgive him.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, I’m not hating on Brock – I’m just confused by Nate’s responses.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think you meant ‘redneck with self-control issues’ as a compliment. But I don’t wanna fight.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, that part? Sure. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

But wait – was I inaccurate?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wait, I’m slow? You don’t see where your responses in this thread have been confusing? Huh.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

jsut trying to point out that at the time

Cassius Clay was seen in very much the same way Brock Lesnar is by many people now — as they hated him and thought he was a disgrace to the sport.
When he converted to Islam it got even worse because there was a political aspect that upped the ante.
I agree that Lesnar isn’t fit to carry Ali’s jock, but history has placed Ali on a perch that he wasn’t sitting on at the time..

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Never been a fan of Ali personally.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 14, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that Lesnar isn’t fit to carry Ali’s jock, but history has placed Ali on a perch that he wasn’t sitting on at the time..

True, but I think it’s reasonable to ask oneself how likely it is that history will redeem Brock’s flaws in the way that history has lionized Ali. Even if Brock Lesnar ends up being the star that drives the UFC into mainstream recognition, acceptance, and the cornucopia of Big Media, fans might reasonably wonder whether it would be a good thing that HE was the face of MMA.

I guess you could ask whether, in that historical context, whether it was a good thing that ALI was the face of boxing. I’d imagine there have been books written about it. But I’m going to suggest that for the 1960s and 1970s, given what was happening in America at the time, he was the man for the moment, a sports star that earned his iconic place, even as the society resisted.

It remains to be seen whether history will be as kind to Brock Lesnar.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

history won't even note Brock Lesnar

sports history maybe, MMA history for sure.
But he won’t be a world historical figure the way Ali is.

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by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which to be fair...

Ali in todays culture wouldn’t be nearly the same figure. He was the right person at the right moment in history

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

of course

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by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ali was hardly the mature super-composed genius we all make him out to be now. Believe it or not…he was a flawed human being. Ali is my favorite athlete in the history of the world and I’ve had the pleasure to meet him several times including riding next to him on a plane trip…but I refuse to treat the man like he was without flaws as a man.

Brash? Both get a check

Clever? Certainly Ali was more clever. “a total eclipse of Sonny” takes the cake over “He had a horseshoe up his ass and I pulled it out and beat him over the head with it” but that doesn’t really matter unless you’re getting hung up on “who was cooler?”

Genius in the ring? Absolutely, he used his natural gifts better than most anyone else in his time. The jury is still out on brock…but he certainly is working to use his natural gifts. His are just the less sexy “strength and size” rather than “speed and smarts”

I’m not saying that they’re the same person or occupy the same space in the world. Simply that Brock being Brock is more of an Ali-ish thing than the pro-wrestling thing everyone tries to pass off.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The difference is that when Ali was at his most cocky and brash, he was also acting to a much greater degree. It’s clear after Saturday night that Brock’s most honest moments were his yelling at Mir and his comments to Joe.

In adrenaline, veritas.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it's fair to remember...

that Ali’s actions after he beat Liston (as seen in video above) were pretty outrageous for the time. And that is an equally adrenaline driven moment. The world has changed so they don’t seem quite so bad now as they did at the time. But still…

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

How about…

Ali was pro wrestling before pro wrestling was pro wrestling? :s Vince McMahon (spelling?) had to draw inspiration from somewhere.

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on Jul 14, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, Ali was influenced by pro wrestler Gorgeous George (IIRC, the first to really have an outsized flamboyant personality). So there you go.

by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I’m going to drop the Race Card early and often in this thread, because when a brash young black athlete is involved, there’s an expectation that it be done with a certain kind of “coolness,” whereas when a brash young white athlete from a certain background is involved, it is routinely perceived as being a “redneck.”

Kinda like the difference between Stone Cold Steve Austin and The Rock. Both are popular, but appeal to different audiences in different ways.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 2:31 PM EDT reply actions  

and yet "redneck"

is the only ethnic slur that’s ok to throw around in 21st century america.

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by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t classify “redneck” as an ethnic slur.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because it isn’t.

Especially for guys like Brock who self-identify.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Self Identification is not what makes something a slur or not. Brock may be a redneck, but that would be based on his behavior, not his ethnic background. Geek and Redneck are in the same class for me. You can be offended by either or wear them on your sleeve proudly. Neither are truly based on ethnicity and classified based on behavior.

Also, if you still want to classify “redneck” as an ethnic slur then it is definitely not the only one that its ok to throw around.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think I wasn't clear

I was trying to point out that in addition to not being “ethnic” it isn’t a slur when people self-identify. Calling Brock a redneck after he’s made such a point of calling himself a redneck just cannot be considered a slur.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if someone identifies them selves as X, that doesn’t mean X can’t be a slur. Its really tone that makes X a slur. It is the intent, and that is hard to quantify. He can call himself a redneck all day and it can still be offensive when I call him that depending on context.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s a good point. But you know what I was getting at. :-)

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I do. Its just that I was just talking about this last week in another context. The Duality of the word Gay is an interesting topic.

by szucconi on Jul 14, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am a nerd and proud of it, in middle school I was called it in a very different tone.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

True…

If a black dude called Brock a redneck, I’m pretty sure he’d be offended. Maybe not as offended as if he called him a champion for homosexual rights, but still, he’d be offended.

:)

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on Jul 14, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whereas if you called me a champion for homosexual rights, I’d give you three snaps in Z formation.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 15, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nice In Living Color reference! You go Antwan! :)

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on Jul 15, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ethnic doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh boy. This is clearly the proper venue for a discussion of what “ethnic” means.

by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

If people are gonna use it wrong? That’s the perfect place to correct them.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m just saying that this sounds like a potential morass. It’s a complicated concept. And I have a selfish motivation as well—I don’t want to have to struggle to remember all the whiteness studies stuff I used to kind of know. That subject is like mental torture.

by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, if we’re not here to teach the young bigots of America what’s wrong with their thinking, who will do it?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re sucking me in….

The problem is, it’s not that simple. I’m not saying “redneck” is an ethnicity or anything, but thinking of white American culture as the neutral or default culture has its own risks. Like I said, it’s complicated and not really an appropriate topic for an MMA blog.

by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

STOP THIS TOPIC

I know I brought it up. My mistake.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Louis CK said it best

Oh no, you called me a cracker! That brings out horrible memories of when my ancestors owned property and slaves.

by Zack Gobie on Jul 14, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

off topic

stop.

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by Kid Nate on Jul 14, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think what you’re glossing over is the importance of “coolness.” It’s not a black/white thing. It’s a cool/loser thing.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

But black athletes, like black males in general, are expected to be cool, whereas for white males, being cool is optional.

I’m also saying that “cool” means something different when you’re talking about a black athlete and a white athlete…at least in America.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please expand on this "cool" thing.

I’m not sure I buy into the “black athletes, like black males in general, are expected to be cool, whereas for white males, being cool is optional.” idea. Seems like a racial biased POV to me.

by Razreshat on Jul 14, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

What you said, shorter:

“Here’s a shovel: dig your hole deeper.”

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is a racially biased point of view. But fine, let me expound:

Being a snappy dresser, being able to string together memorable phrasology, being popular with the ladies, carrying yourself with confidence, i.e. “swagger,” are all components of being viewed as “cool.” Doing what you do with flash, flair, and finesse, all matter in the “cool quotient.”

But being unremarkable, workmanlike, “blue-collar,” straight and narrow? Not viewed as cool, and not “coded” as traits associated with black males.

Again, I’m not saying that white athletes can’t be cool; I’m just saying that the expectation that they be cool is relaxed. Kinda like how white athletes CAN be Athletic and Explosive (A&E), but when you hear “A&E,” you’re probably hearing about a black dude, and when a black dude ISN’T described as A&E, you notice it as atypical.

BUT BACK ON TOPIC, in-ring expressiveness is always viewed through the prism of culture and expectation. Brock Lesnar, for people in my peer group, calls to mind the guys you see in movies, as part of the white supremacist prison gangs — he’s a scary dude in a different way that Bob Sapp is a scary dude. When he gives a post-fight interview, after snarling at the camera, and talks about going back home, having a couple of beers, and “getting on top of his wife,” he’s doing a different kind of schtick than a Rashad Evans (remember when he grabbed his crotch during a fight, or celebrated a knockout with a Fred Sanford heart attack?) talking trash at Rampage Jackson, and it ends up sounding more like Stone Cold Steve Austin than Floyd Mayweather. So we think “pro wrestling showmanship” rather than “pro boxing showmanship.” But at its heart, it’s ALL showmanship, and your mileage varies based on the type of fan you are.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank you, this is a great article. Alot of people won’t “get it” because they weren’t around when Ali was in his prime, and the times were different. But if you look at the changes in time, and culture, compared to then and now, Brock does fall into the same category.

But most people are mind numbingly idiotic and refuse to compare Brock to someone like Ali.

"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate

by Kaleb Kelchner on Jul 14, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Cassius Clay...

His theatrics seem WWE’ish.

by Bandaka on Jul 14, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Very Interesting Piece

My biggest problem with Brock is his homophobia and lack of humor (I don’t think he could take a joke directed at him at all). If he wants to get in Mir’s face after Mir kept bashing him, so be it. At least they’re not pretending it was hype like Serra and Hughes did (does anyone really think they get along now that they’ve fought?). I hate the Marcus Davis-style manufactured hype more than anything else. I am very intrigued with Rampage & Rashad. I love Nick Diaz’s attitude because you know that’s really him. Tito’s antics – meh – too WWE for me.

How the hell did this become a discussion on race, anyway?

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 14, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

...I don't know...

the race thing came out stronger than I expected

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love all the same few Lesnar haters getting enraged by the Clay parallels. Must be tough to swallow.

Lesnar is the man. He’s the champ. He’s the biggest star in the UFC, and has tons of fans, and is the biggest PPV draw.

And he’s not leaving that perch for a long time.

by Hardcharger on Jul 14, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh I came to see if it had calmed down a little bit, lol who was I kidding.
Brent you won’t brainwash me on this one, I saw it coming miles away, your jedi mind trick.

by spectaa on Jul 14, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the reading. Nice Tarot cards.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem. Just trying to save you thousands of BE posts lamenting Brock Lesnar, but I doubt it will be effective.

Enjoy the Lesnar era.

by Hardcharger on Jul 14, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I can’t not rec this. Sorry jemal.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s okay. Sniff.

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re a big boy. Why not have some fun on Supremacy’s latest bullshit so I can rec you again?

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Man, everybody gets an era lately. Can we wait until he has 10 fights first?

Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones

by jemaleddin on Jul 14, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Jul 14, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not everyone, but champs who’ve defended their belt do. And champs who are the biggest star in the UFC certainly do.

by Hardcharger on Jul 14, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Different parallel?

I’m inclined to say Bisping and Mir were closer to Ali than Lesnar was. But maybe that’s because their trash talk was funnier.

I may post about this later — I had an exchange with Henderson at the postfight in which I asked if he would be intrigued by the possibility, maybe when Bisping has more experience, to go to the UK and be the bad guy. He said he didn’t think he’d be the bad guy because Bisping’s mouth cost him so many fans. I followed up — pointing out that Bisping’s trash was pretty innocuous by the standards of most sports, and Hendo was the one who called him a douchebag and said it felt good to hit him when he was unconscious. Hendo didn’t budge, saying most people he’d talked with said Bisping had alienated everyone.

I actually don’t doubt him. I just don’t understand it. Did Bisping say anything worse that Mir did? Was Mir just funnier? What’s the deal?

by Beau Dure on Jul 14, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that for the most part it was just Bisping being Bisping (look back at his run on TUF, and you’ll see that he was that same cocky Brit), but viewed through the reality show, they played up certain antics to make him look like more of a jerk.

But that said, there has always been an undercurrent of fans who viewed him as overrated and protected because of his status as UK draw. Those people have wanted to see him humbled for a LONG time.

by madiq on Jul 14, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Certain members of the MMA press need to study up on thier combat sports history and stop pretending that somehow Brock Lesnar is a first of his kind personality shattering the norms of combat sports. To me he is just another outspoken combat athlete trying to prove that his world is round.

I liked the way you said that… good stuff.

by Loot on Jul 14, 2009 4:18 PM EDT reply actions  

A couple points...and a couple more

1. Lesnar is physically gifted, incapable of accepting failure and has a certain silent following (like Ali) but he’s verbally crippled and socially awkward (unlike Ali).

2. Why the confusion with theatrics (melodramatic acting) over the genuine behavior of psyching yourself up and the other out? What we’re calling “theatrics” are GENUINE attempts to lessen the performance potential of the other as well as an effort to convince themselves (or the audience). A cobra puffs its hood, not for a better show, but to intimidate, hold its ground and cause the retreat of its challenger.

3. It seems that reality television/sports has made it easy to call ALL behaviors a part of the game. It wasn’t really me. It was the editing or the scripting. Maybe Brock IS the caricatured personality (and physique) that must now exist in a cage bound by other traditions.

4. The only race in this argument is in each ethnicity’s OWN definition of the alpha male and even then their is plenty of crossover. The mumbler Joe Frazier was the antithesis of “swagger” while GSP plays up the playa in his XXXS underwear.

5. Martial arts has ALWAYS been an oral tradition passed through hand and foot to its pupil from a master. Humility in practice and grace in defeat are the accepted boundaries of the art. Brock is having to learn the difference between the high art (maybe even moral ground) of martial disciplines and the lowbrow art of wrasslin’ on TV.

6. Piehole closed.

by heydre on Jul 14, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Humility in practice and grace in defeat are the accepted boundaries of the art?

Only if you want to remember it that way. There are innumerable examples of poor sportsmanship and arrogance throughout the history of martial arts and modern prize fighting, both apocryphal and true. (One excellect example would be Miyamoto Musashi’s alleged duel with Sasaki).

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 14, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Story goes, the guy came to the duel 3 hours late and hit the guy with a boat oar, killing him.

Then he left with the tide so that his outraged friends couldn’t challenge him.

Allegedly.

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 14, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love that story - bushido my ass.

He used the oar because Sasaki fought with a longer-than-typical katana, so he carved an even longer oar. MM also showed up late to piss off Sasaki and distract him.

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 14, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like to point out

That Royce Gracie was a serious jerk at times and routinely held on to submissions after his opponent tapped out.

by Captain7 on Jul 15, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

5. Martial arts has ALWAYS been an oral tradition passed through hand and foot to its pupil from a master. Humility in practice and grace in defeat are the accepted boundaries of the art. Brock is having to learn the difference between the high art (maybe even moral ground) of martial disciplines and the lowbrow art of wrasslin’ on TV.

I’ve always found comments like this off. I mean, I like smiles and balloons too, but chivalry and bushido didn’t matter until there weren’t anymore knights or samurai fighting anymore IIRC.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bushido only became the norm once the Tokugawa family conquered & united all of Japan. It fossilized the warrior culture & banned any advance of military technology (i.e. guns). It was peace through tyranny.

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 14, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s been years and years since I took any Japanese history, but I seem to remember some historians are rather skeptical that bushido was ever a very important concept in people’s daily actions. I seem to remember an article called “Bushido or Bull?,” but it’s not coming up in JSTOR.

by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

As far as "low brow" goes

Note that the earliest incarnations of western fightsport—pankration, gladiatorial combat, et al.—were quite popular to the populares if you catch my drift.

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 14, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, from everything I’ve studied, all that honor stuff didn’t mean shit except to those people who came years later. Essentially, folks got all hot and bothered about heroic stories from the long ago and got really romantic and idealistic in their revising of that history.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

Excellent point and Brockapocalypse seals the deal.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thankfully, I don’t have a limited amount to rec’s to pass out.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brockageddon?

I expect no recs.

How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert

by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

And you shall receive no recs.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Jul 14, 2009 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got your back Subo. Take that Richard!

by Captain7 on Jul 15, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have no clue what the hell is going on with Ali & Brock.

Continue.

Keep firing Assholes!

Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

by Ubernoober on Jul 14, 2009 6:03 PM EDT reply actions  

Please don't do that.

I don’t care if you are comparing the two men’s ability to sell fights. Please do not place Brock Lesnar in the company of Mohammad Ali ever again. Please!

"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"

by Warhand on Jul 14, 2009 6:53 PM EDT reply actions  

meh

I’m much more concerned with the concept of wrapping Sonny Liston up into some sort of analogy wherein he’s the Frank Mir figure.

It ends in an armbar or a strangle regardless.

by capital L on Jul 14, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jul 14, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

The comparison is mostly apt in the way Brent framed it. However, I think Ali’s willingness to speak his mind, regardless of consequences, was far more substantive than any reason Brock would have for saying what he does. There were severe social implications to much of what Ali was saying that wasn’t fight related. Heck, even some of Ali’s fight related talk had scathing social implications if one took it to heart — the “Uncle Tom” stuff springs to mind.

Yes, it’s true that Brock speaks his mind on whatever issues are raised around him. Whether it be homosexuality, politics, or anything really, his mind doesn’t seem to possess any sort filter or regard for someone he might offend. In that narrow respect, he shares quasi-similar qualities with Ali. And if that’s where the comparison ends, I think it’s fair.

by a tommy point on Jul 14, 2009 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

“I just want to say one last thing. Certain members of the MMA press need to study up on thier combat sports history and stop pretending that somehow Brock Lesnar is a first of his kind personality shattering the norms of combat sports. To me he is just another outspoken combat athlete trying to prove that his world is round.”

Indeed:

From entertainment to fighting: 9 pro wrestlers who impacted MMA

Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com

by Sergio Non on Jul 14, 2009 11:43 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec'd - Awesome story idea.

But you forgot Bob Sapp…

Shameless self-promotion! http://twitter.com/scb0212
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 15, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good point.

I forgot that he actually did a bit of pro wrestling before K-1 and Pride — I tend to remember him more for his NJPW run that came after his Pride run. But I can add him now…

Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com

by Sergio Non on Jul 15, 2009 4:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

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