Teammate vs. Teammate Bouts: Relieving Staleness of Divisions or Hurting Fighter Potential?

Yesterday, it was reported that Lorenzo Fertitta, UFC Owner and co-founder of Station Casinos, had made some comments regarding UFC matchmaking. Fertitta stated that teammates will have to fight each other in the future, and that fight camps wouldn't be excluded from fighting each other just because they train with each other day in and day out.
"At the end of the day, we are here to see fighters and we are here to see fights," Fertitta said when asked about the potential of teammate vs. teammate match-ups.
"If teammates don’t want to fight, then they are just going to have to go somewhere else," he continued. "We don’t put up with that stuff.
"That’s just the way it is. You step up. You’re a UFC fighter and I don’t care who it is, you have to fight."
First and foremost, I've been waiting for someone at Zuffa to say this for quite some time. Most notably, the UFC's welterweight division has three top-flight fighters all training out of AKA in Mike Swick, Jon Fitch, and Josh Koscheck. Furthermore, if the UFC signs Jake Shields in the future, he would be added to the laundry list of fighters that train at AKA on a semi-regular basis.
There are also other divisions that could benefit greatly from the news. Xtreme Couture has a number of fighters fighting within the same division, especially at lightweight where a Gray Maynard vs. Tyson Griffin showdown could prove a lot in testing Maynard's takedown defense and striking. Greg Jackson's camp is another nightmarish scenario for Rashad Evans and potentially Keith Jardine. American Top Team would be another major camp that would be affected by the comments as well.
So, why would anyone be against this proposition by Fertitta? Interestingly enough, some fans are expressing concern after seeing the progression of Stephan Bonnar before his fight with Mark Coleman on Saturday night. Specifically, Bonnar was exiled to training with a few Xtreme Couture fighters at another gym while Coleman was taken in at Xtreme Couture. The reasoning behind this has been pure speculation, but it may stem around the fact that Coleman is a Hall of Famer while Bonnar has been on a slide and tested positive for steroids in the past.
Photo by Tracey Lee via Combat Lifestyle.
In any case, from some of the accounts I read, Bonnar was able to train at Xtreme Couture, but only in a limited capacity at specific times. He wasn't using Shawn Tompkins as a striking coach, but rather working with a new boxing coach in Chris Ben. He stated in an interview with MMA Fanhouse that he was getting his sparring in at Xtreme Couture, but I'm sure it was much more limited to what he's seen in the past.
Why is this a huge issue? It's definitely going to become a substantial problem for camps that push the "family" philosophy. Greg Jackson's camp has pushed that philosophy time and time again, and if the UFC decides to match-up two of his own fighters, one of those fighters will either need to find another camp to train with, or the gym will have a divide in training partners and training times to avoid crossover. Some fans suggest that with such a good relationship with GSP's camp in Montreal, fighters could move up there while their opponent stays in New Mexico. What happens if one camp wins most of the matches though? I could see some hostility coming out of a situation like that. Also, note that Greg Jackson has a rule that teammates will not fight each other.
Ultimately, this isn't the bigger issue in my mind. I'm more worried about the skill levels of fighters fluctuating before these inter-camp matches because of a non-ideal training schedule and partners. A guy like Bonnar probably needs the best available training in order to perform at a peak level, but other fighters such as those in the AKA camp might have a better go in the cage even with different training partners and instructors. That's a major question though. Do these guys rely heavily on the already established training partners and instruction they receive? Will a small mix-up in their routine hurt them in the upcoming bout?
In the end, Lorenzo Fertitta is giving the fans what they want. Divisions shouldn't get stale because three out of the top five fighters within the weight class are from the same camp. It absolutely hurts the potential pairings that can happen at the top, but it also causes the UFC to have to go out and sign new talent to challenge these guys. In his scenario, there will be less of a lengthy layoff for each fighter who is healthy, and that's a good thing. It'll also give us a definitive contender if inter-camp fighters are at the top of the heap, and that's the way it should be.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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I was going to write something up on this, but it is better that I didn’t and you did. You are missing one piece though. Greg Jackson has several quotes out there about this. Its a camp rule that teammates don’t fight each other. I will look for the quote.
Damn, I can’t find it. Its in the Total MMA book written by Jonathan Snowden. Its a great quote that made me rethink my stance on friends fighting and training. Basically the idea was that if there is a chance of two guys fighting at all then they are going to hold back in coaching and helping other guys train and be the best they can be. So at the Jackson camp they take that option of fighting each other off the table at the outset so both guys can make each other the best they can be. It’s one of the reasons Diego left when GSP came in. He wanted to fight for the title and won’t be able to train with Jackson to fight GSP now that he was a member at Jackson’s gym.
Well, I didn’t have the specific rule, but the “family” philosophy hits home at that problem.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 14, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the thoughts of Jackson are conveyed, but I think the quote (if I could find the damn thing) is right on topic and a viewpoint that is defended well. Not a necessary addition, but a pertinent one, I think.
I just tried looking, can’t find it. Lemme know and I’ll add it.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 14, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I have the book at home and I am at work so I am shit out of luck until 7est. Maybe Snowden is lurking around here today and can help me out? Maybe if I pimp his book really hard.
Page 342
The Greg Jackson quote:
“If you are friends, then you are not going to fight each other. Then you give to each other. If you’re going to fight each other in the future, you’re always going to hold something back. You’re always going to be studying the other guy.”
by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Much thanks. It was a page of talk like this, but this quote was the meat I was speaking of.
It made me think he has a point. Maybe a guy holds back and guys don’t improve as much or as quickly. Jackson is doing something right down there and maybe there is something to this.
But then on the other hand, maybe its a bit of coach manipulation to make guys open up and give 100% and make them feel like they are safe and in a trusting environment. Knowing in the back of his mind that the day may come when someone might have to fight someone else. Someone should do a point counterpoint book about Jackson’s camp and MFS. They are two very different places with success and different views on things.
Side note: what happened with that whole “reductio/straw man” confusion from payuss in that other post? I left to go to work, and by the time I was back, I couldn’t find anything from that conversation. I’m kinda curious what happened there.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I deserve to get banned if I get into all that again. Believe me, you didn’t miss anything worthwhile.
by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t come off like a high quality chap, so hopefully the other dude would get the brunt of the banhammer. :-)
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Whatever the case, I was stupid and acting like a jerk. I’m not going to run down the other guy when I allowed myself to behave that way.
by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s actually part of the reason I went with the username “Rundownloser” and have things like kittens or sloths for avatars: everytime I’m about to fly off the handle and really give it somebody, they remind me I’m just some dude being a dork on the internet, just like the other guy. Calms me right down, usually with a chuckle.
Either way, it was good having you backing me up on that one, because bad philosophy is one of those things that I don’t even think a kitten can fix. :-D
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 14, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody should be forced to fight anybody else
This is the kind of the thing you can only impose on someone through sheer coercion. When fighters band together and unionize, they won’t be pushed around like this anymore.
Umm
Friends would only be fighting one another when it was deemed necessary…like it wouldn’t make sense for Keith Jardine and Rashad Evans to fight now…and it’s not going to happen…but when it’s necessary to fight(like Mike Swick should have to fight Jon Fitch and/or Josh Koscheck at some point) then it needs to happen.
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by Kelvin Hunt on Jul 14, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I think only if it was for the title
And they are the number 1 and 2 guys.. No reason to break the camp those people have been building for years if it was just for a lame reason..
by Anton Tabuena on Jul 14, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Problem is that Dana White could just SAY that the winner of a fight gets a title shot, without being bound by that statement.
that's why i said the only time they should fight if it was actually for the title..
not a #1 contender’s match..
by Anton Tabuena on Jul 14, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Has Dana ever lied about giving the winner of a fight a title shot to your knowledge?
How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t have to be a lie—plans change due to unforeseen circumstances (usually injury). Karo Parisyan is the most prominent example.
by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
They shouldn't be allowed to protect their records...
by bypassing contenders in the division… The AKA situation is weird in that they have 3/4 top 10 WW’s that never have to face each other…
But fighters turn down fights all the time. What would stop a fighter from just accepting the fight, and then “suffer an injury in training,” forcing him to withdraw?
The wrath of Dana White. He isn’t stupid. He’d probably blacklist the shit out of someone for doing that. Place them on undercards, and eventually drive their ass out of the promotion while making them wait an entire year to fight their last fight.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 14, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
So now we’re suggesting a MORE vindictive and capricious managerial style, as the solution to enforcement of a quasi-coercive policy? Interesting…
then they can't compete in the same division...
in the same promotion… The point is that the best fighters are supposed to fight the best fighters… If they train together, then they need to decide who gets to wave the UFC WW flag, and who gets to be a big fish in a tiny pond elsewhere.
Read again
He didn’t suggest anything. Just answered your question.
by Well Read Idiot on Jul 14, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, considering Dana cut Fitch over the whole ancillary rights issue, it wouldn’t surprise me. He waited to give Huerta a fight for a lengthy amount of time, and did the same to Tito. I can only imagine what he’d do if he tried to match-up Koscheck and Fitch, and they both decline, especially if it’s a legitimate match-up to determine a contender at some point down the road. Obviously, the statement by Fertitta would have some consequence.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 14, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I have no doubt that he’d try to do that, but again, fighters gut it out through injuries sustained in training all the time, and yet we still have guys pull out of fights because of injuries. Will Dana & Co. be hiring their own doctors to determine the extent of a fighter’s reported injury? Will Dana publicly call the fighters pussies? Will the braintrust purposefully hold out both fighters (and with it, hold up the division) to send a message? They may, but now we’re treading beyong the territory of ’what’s good for the sport?" and into “what can Zuffa get away with?” I suspect we already know the answer to that…
I’m not really commenting on the “sustaining an injury” deal. I’m more on the thought that the fighter flat out declines because it’s a teammate. I suppose they could “fake” an injury.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 14, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You really are hung up on the evil Zuffa angle aren’t you?
Back to the topic at hand, MMA is one on one in the end. If the guys at AKA don’t want to fight each other, I begin to question their desire to be the best. I am sure they are proud of their gym and think it is the best, so the best people in their division would also be from their gym. If they don’t want to fight each other, then I question their competitive spirit and think maybe all they are after is the fame and the money. At that point I don’t give a crap about them.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Then you have a very narrow group of fighters which you give a crap about. Which is fine.
I never called Zuffa evil; I merely responded to the suggestion that Dana would probably “blacklist the shit” out of a fighter and “drive [his] ass out of the promotion” for turning down a fight, which kinda distorts the negotiation dynamic that I thought existed in the UFC, where I’m routinely told that no one puts a gun to these fighters’ heads.
Well, I’m not saying the gun is to their head, but it seems like Fertitta is hinting at the possibility of that happening in the future with his comments.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 14, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I know a lot of camps push the family or team dynamic, and to their credit. it does help the fighters, but at the end of the day, it’s one on one in the cage, and I think Lorenzo is right: I would like to see team mates fight each other. Maybe not in situations where they don’t have to, but when you have a situation like in the WW division, I would like to see Fitchs vs Kos, or Swick, or whatever. Right there, you have 3 great match-ups. People want to see great fights.
I love me some Sexyama!
And what happens if the fights aren’t great, because both parties aren’t going full bore against each other? Or what happens if it’s a great fight that looks a little too staged? With hours a day to spar together, I’m sure they could anticipate one another’s tactics will enough to put on an entertaining back and forth.
At the end of the fight, one has to win. I doubt that any camp would force one guy to lie down for someone.
I don’t see what is wrong with two guys giving it everything in the cage when they are teammates. Look at Tim Credeur v Jesse Taylor from TUF. Credeur was showing him how to defend triangles the day before their fight.
They would know each other well enough anyway, they could just have their strategy sessions in secret, done by two seperate groups. The problem is not insurmountable and it should not exist in cage fighting.
by Well Read Idiot on Jul 14, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I think it’s up to the camps to figure this kind of stuff out. If a fighter decides to lay down in a fight for the sake of his team mate, then hey, that’s his perogative, and that goes to his integrity (however one would see it as, positive or negative). If the fights suck, the fights suck, but at least they would have fought each other and not been given a free pass against stiff competition just cause they’re buddies.
I love me some Sexyama!
what happens if it turns out like Pete Sell v Scott Smith?
by CliChe Guevara on Jul 19, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Lorenzo on this.
I doubt it will be a big problem that often. However, it is the UFC’s responsiblity to put together exciting and compelling fights with the best fighters, not to manage who trains where, etc….
If a camp as two great fighters at a specific weight class who are both progressing toward the title…well, they will have to figure out the how to get along thing when it comes to a possible fight.
I’m torn here. As much as I would like to see some of these fights I would hate to have to fight one of my teammates and fully understand why they wouldn’t want to either.
No-one says they should enjoy it, and I think that as long as it isn’t done to camps needlessly, then there is absolutely nothing wrong. It is an individual sport.
Can you imagine if Federer and Nadal trained together in tennis and refused to play each other?
by Well Read Idiot on Jul 14, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Can you imagine if tennis involved hitting your opponent in the face?
But seriously, we hear the same criticisms about when Venus and Serena play each other in tournament finals, that they don’t have the same kind of intensity. Some even speculate that they agree beforehand who will win.
Collusion?
I think that’s crap and I think they would both dispute that and I don’t think it would be a problem in MMA.
How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
To clarify, I don’t believe that they collude, I just know that enough people have suggested that they do to make it relevant to the question in the MMA context…especially with $100,000 bonuses floating around for fights of the night. People come up with ALL TYPES of conspiracy theories. Why wouldn’t they do it if Swick-Fitch or Rashad-Jardine ended up going like Lytle-Davis?
it’s an individual sport but training is very much team oriented. training someone for a fight requires a lot of people to be very involved. when you break up that team dynamic you’re giving the person a very shitty training camp for a fight they are not motivated for. why is that a desirable situation? as someone who trains mma i think this is a terrible idea.
fighters have long been willing to abstain from fighting teammates, even if it means no title shots. silva was mw champ in pride for a long time, even when shogun was consensus #1 205 in the rankings
by phantasma475 on Jul 14, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one who would enjoy fighting a friend more than some random person in my division?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Yeah, but if I was used to having Greg Jackson in my corner and so is my teammate, what happens there? Your coaches are a big part of progressing as a fighter and splitting up a training camp is a no-win situation for everyone.
I would see the speed bump in the future and do my best to avoid it. Don’t join a camp with a future opponent. most camps seem to be doing just fine, AKA is really the only big cluster right now, with 3 top 10 WW from the same camp.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Well, there’s also Xtreme Couture at Lightweight. I guess you don’t consider Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida, or GSP and Nate Marquardt, to be a cluster, because only two fighters are involved. And from what I understand, ATT is pretty tight knit as well.
while teammate/teammate matchups will be a necessity EVENTUALLY....
i don’t see the urgency right now.
kosheck is fighting trigg, swick is fighting kampmann (for a potential title shot), and there are several options for fitch (personally, i’d like to see him fight alves again, or even hughes). and there’s still enough guys building up to that level (anthony johnson, for example) that could provide for interesting matchups.
and with jackson’s camp, i don’t think there’ll ever really be a need for jardine and evans to fight, with their division as crowded as it is (not to mention jardine’s inability to win the big fights when they matter most).
not exactly what the original post was about… just hypothesizing.
i think when it comes down to it, the respective camp will figure out something that works for both fighters. if not, they have a complete lack of foresight, cus this was bound to happen eventually.
I am all for same camp members fighting except the only problem is that two frieands might not fiht compitively against one another and it would just become a shallow exhibition. Like Dana White said, “this isn’t fucking baseball”.
I agree. I think it will make for bad fights just because I think a lot of people wont have quite the killer instinct when it comes to finishing the guy. They might try to finish, but not with the same aggression they would have if it was someone else. I think in a lot of cases it will turn into sparring matches that you could see in daily practice. Another thing I feel could lead to boring fights is that since these guys train together they will know just about everything each other does which could lead to a sort of stale mate.
Insert Anderson Silva versus Lyoto Machida into the equation
This fight would become just a martial arts exhibition. Anderson would be doing all this crazy capoeira kicks and spins. Machida would be throwing hadukens and they would be just dancing all over the ring. Neither would try to seriously hurt each other.
This is pretty much what I would expect as well.
by An Old Friend on Jul 14, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Shinzo Machida has a scar on his face from a tournament fight with Lyoto. I doubt them not going all out would be an issue.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Regardless, good luck selling to fans the idea that these close friends fighting WON’T look like the above hypothetical, considering their respective reputations.
I don’t think they’ll lose one PPV buy by putting on fights between teammates. Not one.
How's the weather up your own ass? - Stephen Colbert
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
This has to go onto the training camps to figure it out. It should happen as seldom as possible, but ultimately they need to be prepared for the scenario that two of their fighters might have to face each other, and how to proceed with that. I think it’s ridiculous for a training camp to not have a solution to this problem. They’re a bunch of grown men. Jackson has a point, which is why it should happen as seldom as possible.
It’s interesting to listen to Swick and Fitch. Swick says he’s ready for the possibility while Fitch wants none of it.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
He must be because when I read that interview in which he stated that, it was odd hearing an AKA guy say that after Fitch has been so adamant about not doing that.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 15, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
i get why the ufc wants to keep making this statement, dana has made it in the past specifically about Jardine/Evans. The interesting thing is though, if it is a marquee matchup, they’re not going to risk offending their marquee stars by forcing them to fight against their will. If it’s not a marquee star, then it doesn’t really matter a whole hell of a lot who they fight… there’s always more opponents in the middle of the pack than there is at the top of the heap.
With as much as they play up bad-blood fights, its hard to imagine them really wanting to sell a fight between good friends. The silva/machida problem is looming and they’d love to drive a wedge in there… but if they both said no to a fight, its not like either is going to get cut. They might cut Koschek or Fitch over it, because they’re both expendable and can rattle the saber enough that Silva and Machida see it.
by Stanlee on Jul 14, 2009 7:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Silva and Machida are in different divisions. The AKA trio are all at the top of one division.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
when asked about Machida vs Silva at UFC 98, Dana White said this:
"Trust me: This is the fight business," White said. "You know what you do in the fight business? You fight guys. You find out who’s the best. I don’t ever worry about guys saying they won’t fight. Everybody [who should fight] will wind up fighting in the end."
I don’t think Dana White sits up at night worrying about who to match up on undercards.
Anderson Silva vs Lyota Machida
I am sure is the reasoning why at this point in time. They want to set up that fight after the Griffin fight guaranteed.
Kos, Fitch, Swick. That is the main problem, Silva and Machida are the champions of different divisions.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
there are enough people at WW that the situation can work itself out without AKA resorting to cannibalism, especially with fitch already having had a shot and kos coming off a loss to a newcomer. unless swick surprises me both against kampmann and gsp it shouldn’t be an issue
silva and machida are in fact champions of different divisions but i think if he wins vs griffin people are expecting him to make a run at the 205 title where problems may arise. the ufc doesn’t like to have nonchampions destroying contenders ala rich franklin
by phantasma475 on Jul 14, 2009 10:49 PM EDT up reply actions
"They want to set up that fight after the Griffin fight guaranteed"
Not if Rampage beats Rashad. He will get next crack at the title whether is Machida or Rua (haha) who has the belt.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
- GSP kicks Kos’ ass
- GSP kicks Fitch’s ass
- GSP will kick Swick’s ass
Keep firing Assholes!
Thanks to Bisping's reenactment of the Battle of Cowpens, walla walla walla I'm an idiot.

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