Urijah Faber's Amazing, But His Broken Hand(s) Do Not Fully Explain the Loss
by Luke Thomas on Jun 8, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
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124 comments
I suppose it was inevitable, but some are suggesting in the wake of last night's fantastic WEC 41 main event between Mike Brown and Urijah Faber that the broken right hand (and undetermined left hand injury) of Faber was the difference maker in last night's affair. Specifically, that Faber likely would've won had it not been for the injury. There are several major problems with this analysis, so let's unpack them here:
1. Historical precedence. The first and most notable problem with the idea that Faber's hand is an excuse for the loss is that it doesn't cohere with how these types of injuries affect outcomes in professional MMA. The reality is that hand breaks are very common and often fighters in high pressure situations (e.g. title fights) still find themselves with no alternative but to fight on. The examples of this are endless. The night before WEC 41, Joe Riggs continued to fight Phil Baroni despite cleanly breaking both hands. Let's not forget Rich Franklin broke his hand (the hand itself, not the fingers) against David Loiseau yet not only won the fight, but continued to punch with the broken hand for the remainder of his five round fight.
And for real grit and determination, it's worth observing Arthur Abraham managed to overcome a game Edison Miranda (in the video above) despite incredible unluckiness and malfeasance from Miranada. Oh yeah, and he fought with his jaw broken...in two places:
On September 23, 2006, Abraham won a decision against undefeated contender Edison Miranda despite having his jaw broken in two places. Miranda was deducted five points by landing repeated low blows as well as intentionally headbutting Abraham in the 5th round. After the Miranda bout, he was praised for his ability to finish the fight despite his injury.
It's not that hand injuries don't complicate game plans or reduce fighters' ability to function in the cage. They clearly do and, of course, the hand injuries to Faber were a factor in the loss. But we cannot offer a complete pass in this instance. It is understandable that such an injury would make defeating Brown far more difficult, but it does not allow his fans or supporters to suggest the injury is the chief determinant in the loss. While normally considered outrageous to perform athletically with such an injury, fighting with broken hands or other extremities is a requirement not really made of athletes in other sports. Fight sport, however, is unforgiving and punishing and we are not wrong to look to a fighter to persevere despite the debilitating condition (particularly in title fights). We cannot blame a fighter for being unable to win with such an injury, but we are permitted to expect him or her to adapt despite the setback. More on this later.
2. Acceptance of significant injury. The lust for blood by callous fans should now and every time be eschewed. But there are times in fight sport when we permitted to ask fighters to gut through injury conditions that inhibit their ability to perform. Specifically, title fights or other pivotal, career defining moments. It is not a lust for violence and carnage, but rather, the recognition that these seminal moments in this sport are few and far between, and that while assuredly unfair and uncomfortable, it is permissible to expect a fighter to find a way to win even with serious setbacks (to say nothing of the "it's the challenger's job to beat the champ" ideology). We have both historical precedent of fighters winning in major fights with similar or worse injuries and the recognition that the requirements of victory in MMA often call for physical exceptionalism. More than almost any sport, MMA demands of its competitors - particularly at the highest levels - a sacrifice of the body that can often seem outrageous by other sporting standards. But this isn't baseball or basketball; this is fight sport. The culture of toughness and durability in the name of victory has always been and will continue to be far more onerous in this sport than others. Tacitly or not, fighters have entered into this culture when they let the cage door shut behind them. We have to keep a humane perspective and remind ourselves fighters who could not win because they have broken hands are not weak or incapable. Far from it. They are human. But we must also remember the path to winning in MMA is often blazed through a trail of unspeakable pain by ordinary human standards. It's an onerous burden fighters have to shoulder, but its the one they entered into.
3. Predicting the counter conditional likelihood. So let's say the hand was never broken. Would the fight have been closer? Most likely. Would Faber have won? Could be. But the reality is that we simply don't know. It's easy to assume Faber's speed and lateral movement would've allowed him to edge out a decision, but perhaps it gave Faber confidence to exchange in Brown's range enough to get dropped. Or maybe Brown decides he didn't want to get picked apart anymore and takes Faber to mat only to hit a head and arm triangle. In other words, we are permitted to acknowledge Faber's injury hampered his effort and, to some extent, affected the outcome. But to what specific extent, we do not and cannot know. It is quite literally impossible to say what, specifically, the hand injury meant to the outcome other than it clearly made matters more difficult for Faber. But it is logically impossible to point to the injury so plainly in a fight where the sheer volume of variables affecting the outcome are in play. You cannot isolate this instance, significant though it may be, as the clear and obvious game changer. We can reasonably speculate, but we simply don't know how the fight would've played out without the injury.
4. Brown nullfiying Faber's wrestling and grappling. The most overlooked aspect of the bout was that Faber was essentially trapped after the hand injury. In both the wrestling and positional control grappling domains, Brown positively shut Faber down. Yes, Faber was able to escape, but only after getting his guard passed, back taken or threatened with several submissions. Moreover, Brown accrued the MMA equivalent of "riding time" by focing Faber into defensive maneuvers over elapsed time. That meant Faber had very little choice except to keep the fight standing. Unfortunately for Faber, his broken hand made standing with Brown not much of a situational improvement. But that's Faber's cross to bear, not Brown's.
Now, had this bout been contested under IFL rules where elbows on the ground were not allowed, I'd have to rethink this position a little. Structural impediments to winning would change the equation somewhat, but the reality is that Faber has very good ground and pound with elbows on top. If I'm not mistaken, I believe Faber either broke or came very close to breaking Joe Pearson's face with an elbow from top control. Faber is also excellent at pulling out of whizzers and underhooks to create a lane for an in-line elbow both standing and in top control. In reality, those tools were all available to Faber, but Brown's dominance on the ground made the use of them exceptionally difficult to come by. Injury or not, that's Brown's handiwork, not Faber's lack of luck.
My hat goes off to both fighters and I give Faber enormous amounts of credit for trying to fight through a very difficult and painful injury. I do not judge him in anyway remotely negative for not being able to win given the seemingly insurmountable odds. Given all he had to contend with, Faber has nothing to be ashamed of and everything to be proud of. But I also do not deny Brown his very legitimate win. The MMA Mistress is often times fickle and unfair, but that's the risk every fighter assumes by being a part of this chaotic, violent affair. The reality is that in meaningful, pivotal fights (or when the fighter chooses), the expectation to fight through offensively debilitating conditions is not misplaced.
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Brown won that fight. But with the broken hand and a still pretty damn competitive fight, I would not mind seeing a third tilt between these two sometime down the road. After some others get a shot at the belt.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 8, 2009 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Another viewing of Brown beating Faber again for the 3rd time? Yes please!!!
Soooooooo happy Brown won last night. This Faber train must stop now! :D Brown stole the first round at the end btw.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 8, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
brown vs faber III makes one million times more sense than faber vs pulver II did.
by dt3 on Jun 8, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Luke, you are grasping at straws here.
Not every hand break is different. Some are just small fractures and won’t have much of an impact. It was obvious from the x-ray and how swollen his hand was after the fight that he had a bad break, which would have effected his grappling and striking.
It’s a valid excuse. Doesn’t mean there needs to be a rematch, but it’s a valid reason for his performance.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 8, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m not grasping at anything. I mentioned the break of the hand – as opposed to the fingers – is far worse. But that’s not reason to suggest Faber would’ve won otherwise. Which is my point. I quite clearly state it’s a factor, but it’s not the factor.
And I don’t need to see one right away, but I wouldn’t mind a rematch. I think it’s a compelling fight. Their individual styles make for dynamic action.
by Luke Thomas on Jun 8, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Title of the post fixed for clarity.
by Luke Thomas on Jun 8, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have the feeling lots of people won't read the whole article
Then they’d get pissed and hate on you..
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 8, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I was really hoping for Faber to get that choke in the last round, would have been a hell of a story win if he had. For anyone with more knowledge of grappling, how well sunk in was it and would having non broken hands have made much of a difference for that.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 8, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s not clear. It was the left hand that was cinching on the bicep and I’m not sure what’s up with his left hand. The right hand is clearly a mess, but I’m not sure about his left. Beyond that, the choke was lost by the time they hit the ground as Brown rolled to his back. I don’t know if that had anything to do with the hand, Brown working an escape or both. Tough to say, really.
by Luke Thomas on Jun 8, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the left
I would like to hear if it was hurt as well. He used it a lot more, but he slapped mostly and never looked like he could use it totally.
Changing the heath of a fighter does as much to affect the fight as changing the rules. I don’t think you can say Faber would have won had he not broken his hand, but I don’t think you can say Brown would have won had Faber not broken his hand. The judges gave a round to Faber, presumably the first. I think its safe to say it would have been close. The hand is not a red herring excusing the loss, but it is also not Silva over Franklin either. This was a much better fight then even the first Faber Brown fight. Faber seemed to get used to Browns size near the end and escaped from under him a whole hell of a lot and with relative ease.
by szucconi on Jun 8, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But does he get that choke in without a broken hand?
The point that we don’t know how the fight proceeds without that break of Faber’s right hand is a very good one. Who knows if Faber finds himself (or forces himself) into that position, or if he walks into a right hand that he avoided by keeping his distance due to the broken hand?
"I don't have a hit-and-run sign, and I believe it's the worst play in baseball." - Earl Weaver
by duck on Jun 8, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except he didn’t really keep distance because of his broken hand(s). He was forced to close the distance and strike with elbows, effectively limiting his reach to the point where Sherk could have kept him at a distance. Your point about things playing out differently, however, is accurate.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
by Day Man on Jun 8, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's true....
I guess what I meant was, he didn’t stay within striking distance. He was either far away or so close that any punch except possibly an uppercut wasn’t available to Brown. He didn’t stay in jab range at all, it seemed, just barged in chest to chest to throw elbows. Pretty smart stratgey when your hand’s shattered, and I would have loved to see him lock in that last submission, but Mike Brown did what he had to.
"I don't have a hit-and-run sign, and I believe it's the worst play in baseball." - Earl Weaver
by duck on Jun 9, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a very close fight but it was also very obvious after the first round that it had become a wery different fight too. It was a hell of a fight and Mike Brown flat out won the fight but imagine just how much of a war it would of been if Faber hadn’t of broke his had like that.
What I don’t get is all the comparisons to Silva vs Franklin, this was a entirely different fight than that, even with a broken hand(s) Faber managed to go five rounds and keep it close, Anderson Silva laid Franklin out decisively in both their fights. Does anyone want to see Anderson SIlva kill Rich Franklin for a third time? Faber vs Brown 3 would be very interesting, it’s a completly different situation not to mention that by the time Faber can fight again who knows what his division will look like.
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone want to see Anderson SIlva kill Rich Franklin for a third time? Faber vs Brown 3 would be very interesting, it’s a completly different situation not to mention that by the time Faber can fight again who knows what his division will look like.
I’m completely on board with this.
Faber NEEDS to sit out a good chunk of time so his hand(s?) can heal properly. In the meantime, I suspect we might see the emergence of another dominant champion (not to say that Brown won’t have plenty of tough fights, particularly since it looks like Aldo is probably up next). And who wouldn’t want to see a fully recuperated Faber go to war with the new 145 lb. kingpin (which for the purposes of this argument, I’m assuming is Brown)?
by Estrada on Jun 8, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the major factor here is that Florian picked up on it immediately, and it became an issue they came back to over and over during the fight. Most matchups, we end up finding out a couple days after the fight that his hand was broken or after the fight, but when it was mentioned during the fight, it allowed the fans to truly see why he was throwing elbows, unable to lock hands.
I think it makes the 3rd matchup a given now. Most fans, even casual fans, know that Faber was hurt. I think casuals will specifically want to see it.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 8, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, after Florian said that, all I could think about was how Faber wasn’t throwing punches. Just because of that I figured he was doomed to lose. Even my girlfriend asked what happened. It was almost distracting, actually.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Jun 8, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One judge gave Faber a round after the had break, that was still a pretty close fight.
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown can easily get in one or two more title defenses in the time it takes Faber’s had to heal fully and they might want Faber to get in a fight before a rematch too, A Faber vs Brown rematch a year from now could really draw(provided Jose Aldo doesn’t take Brown’s head off).
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the time line I was imagining.
It seems like the WEC is quietly stacking both 145 and 135, so I imagine that there won’t be any shortage of tough opponents for Brown. And a “warm-up” fight for Faber once his hand is completely rehabbed is probably a good idea as well.
by Estrada on Jun 8, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God yes! I’m hoping he does guest commentary at 100.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 8, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve got a feeling Kenny Florian will have a long long career in MMA that stretches a lot farther than just his fighting age.
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Silva/Franklin comparison...
is that it may be the case that one guy (Franklin & Faber) has no shot of beating the champion (Silva & Brown) so he has to go to another weight class.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 8, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
although I should clarify...
that I’m not saying Faber has “no chance”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 8, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest sign for me was that Faber wasn’t guyshy after the 1st fight. I’ve seen too many rematches in MMA & boxing where fighters get very cautious. Regardless of the break, Faber was figuring Brown out after a round or 2. He can’t contend w/the size & strength but he was scoring. If they rematch (which I would love), he certainly stands a good chance of winning.
by frickshun on Jun 8, 2009 12:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That fight was an awesome fight last night. Broken hand or not, Brown has a legitimate win for sure. Sometimes things just don’t go a fighter’s way. Clearly last night Faber was a bit unlucky, but shit happens. I would like to see another rematch later on after someone else gets a shot at the title first. I think the broken hand was enough to put some doubt in to the outcome (not Brown winning, cause that was legit, but more to do with whether Faber would have performed better).
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Jun 8, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I definitely agree concerning the idea of continuing to strike w/one or both hands broken but grappling and trying to secure chokes etc. would HAVE to be much more difficult.
If my hand is mangled, swollen piece of flesh and bone, I can still punch you in the face w/it. However, I doubt I would be able to grip very well and certainly not secure a choke properly. Faber doesn’t get a full pass in my mind but i also don’t think he should get the Rich Franklin(vs. Silva) treatment either.
If a third fight happens, it should several fights down the road for both guys.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jun 8, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The night before WEC 41, Joe Riggs continued to fight Phil Baroni despite cleanly breaking both hands.
Riggs deserves a ton of credit but that was a very different situation, Riggs pulled out a fight he was already winning in the third with bad hads against Phil Baroni.
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gentlemen's agreement to eliminate b*tch moves from MMA
I realize that certain moves are perfectly legal in MMA, just as the “Faber open handed purse-slap” or the “Stomp on the opponent’s foot like a nerd getting a wedgie from the class bully” manuvre, but can’t there be a gentlemen’s agreement amongst fighters that these moves are dishonorable to both combatants and can be shunned? I would feel like a total p*ssy if I stomped someone’s toes in an mma fight. That’s just me…. what do you guys think?
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you are very, very, very wrong
I wrote a post about how I thought trying to kick a guy’s kneecap out was dirty and there’s an implicit agreement to not do that (that Anderson broke against Leites in an effort to get him to engage) – but if the rules allow it, it’s not pussy.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot about that one… add the “Anderson Silva Front kick to the kneecap because he’s afraid to engage his opponent” to the list. Good call. That is also a b*tch move. This is MMA, not streetfighting. If it was streetfighting, and we were going to try to injure people (i.e. breaking kneecaps), everyone would do karate, neck strikes and eye-gouges would be legal, and mma would not be sanctioned.
To me it gets back to having respect for your opponent.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, see, that's the thing
You’re barred from eye gouging and groin strikes etc. You’re allowed to foot stomp. You’re allowed to use 100% of all legal moves without me calling you a pussy.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right. I know it’s legal. IDK. I would lost some respect for myself if I stomped on someone’s foot.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My buddy footstomped the shit out of his opponent in his first MMA fight – the crowd loved it. I think most fans dig it because they can relate to that more than a kimura or a triangle. If the rules say it’s ok, it’s ok – that’s how I feel
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense. I still won’t do it, though. What about the “Anderson Silva front-kick to the kneecap” move? Unlike a foot stomp, that could actually injure someone. What do you think about that?
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a dick move
But Silva was pissed that his opponent wouldn’t fight. If a guy won’t fight you, do what it takes to get him back into it.
by Albertrayon on Jun 8, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he should have just spit in his face or something, then.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah Silva could’ve laid a fresh turd on Leites’ head and he still wouldn’t have done anything.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 8, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What button do you press to do that in UFC Undisputed?
by Albertrayon on Jun 8, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will be that EA game’s biggest selling point.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the rules allow running away from your opponent a la kalib starnes…is that not pussy?
by Ozone on Jun 8, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, man, is slipping a punch with head movement pussy? Is anything short of Frye/Takayama pussy?
If you get in the cage and sign a piece of paper that says ‘that guy can try to kill me legally’, you’re not a pussy. Period.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is there are rules of etiquette in mma and every sport for that matter that take into factors that the rules do not address. so “slipping a punch” would be not relative to this category at all. Silva’s kneecap crushers would.
by Ozone on Jun 8, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually toe stomps really hurt. I don’t consider that a “pussy” move.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Jun 8, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know they hurt. I am suggesting that if you stomp on your opponent’s toes, you are taking a cheap-shot, although I acknowledge it is legal. Pulling hair hurts too, but nobody does it.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pulling hair isn’t legal, that’s why they don’t do it. Foot stomps are used to cause openings and action from the clinch. They often lead to take downs and “Legit” strikes.
by MMAcGyver on Jun 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that hair pulling is illegal. I know why people perform a foot stomp. I’m just suggesting that to me, stomping on someone’s foot is cheap. I’m not saying it is “ineffective”, or “wussy” or whatever. When I said "….moves are perfectly legal.. " and " I would feel like a total p*ssy if I stomped someone’s toes…" , apparently did not make myself completely clear.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Pulling hair hurts too, but nobody does it.”
We are debating a legal move. You compared it to an illegal move. It sure sounded to me like you had no idea.
To each his own.
by MMAcGyver on Jun 8, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
arguing what the fight would have been like if faber hadnt broke his hand is like arguing what would have happened if crocop ducked or blocked the head kick from gonzaga or if arlovski landed the flying knee against fedor. it is, as stated in point 2, part of the accepted risk. its an aspect and a factor bettors can figure in for just like they do scar tissue and cuts. now that faber broke it, its way more likely he will again. bad hands never get better.
oh, and theres an even better example as far as injuries go thats pertinent to mma – couture breaking his ARM and then beating gonzaga anyways.
by nigelzackit on Jun 8, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
…or what would have happened if Evans hadn’t eaten Machida’s fists.
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Example #2: Fedor breaking his hand and winning via choke with a broken hand. (Not really a fair comparison though, since the man is part god and spars with Siberian bears)
by P4P is a stupid concept on Jun 8, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Couture vs Gonzaga was the first thing I thought of too… especially since when Couture got the TKO he was pounding out Gonzaga with the same arm.
by brad23 on Jun 8, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown was probably going to win this even against a healthy Faber
Excellent article – Faber needs some serious time off to heal and Brown has earned himself a little vacation.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 1:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Faber clearly won that first round, and only after he broke his hand was Brown able to capitalize because Faber had to come in close to use his elbows. Even then, Brown wasn’t able to finish the fight. No doubt in my mind that there will be a Brown vs. Faber 3. Bring it baby!!
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by funnytiger on Jun 8, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know, Brown had his back 5 or 6 times seemed like… he never actually got much done though.
by toxic on Jun 8, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does the fact that he took his back five or six times count? Faber simply cannot control Brown on the ground, whereas Brown can hold his own on the feet. Advantage Brown.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faber gives up position to create scrambles. Brown nullified a lot of that but not to the extent of domination, especially when a broken hand is taken into account.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 8, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faber clearly won that first round
Umm, no he didn’t.
*flees
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faber won the first round but not by a huge margin. Once he slowed down, broken hand or no, Brown took over.
by George Lucas on Jun 8, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faber will be out for 6 months, if not longer depending on how bad his hands are and Brown dominated him for the second time. Most people who know Brown and Faber knew that Brown would be the favorite, despite Faber’s hype train.
Brown is just the better fighter, and now we should move on to better things like Aldo and Fabiano.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Luke...Title?
Urijah Faber is amazing?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
As a matter of fact he is. Get over it.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 8, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hahaha. I think Brown and Aldo are.
Faber is exciting, and thats about it.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I mean, dude was only clearly the best guy in his weight class for a solid period of time. Now he’s only clearly the second best guy. He is clearly not amazing.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 8, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
We are just seeing now the best fighting the best in the division.
How could you say that so and so was the best guy when the best fighters weren’t fighting each other?
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This really is pretty close to trolling.
Saying Faber is nothing but exciting?
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said he wasn’t amazing. I said he was exciting.
Neither of those things determine whether you are a good fighter or not, which he is.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Faber was in DREAM he would be SuperUltraAmazing.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 8, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
lol
http://andheneverwilldies.ytmnd.com/
by monkeyfightclub! on Jun 8, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Did people not get the fact that I was asking whether the title was correct?
I wasn’t questioning how amazing Faber is, I was questioning the title:
“Urijah Faber’s Amazing, But His Broken Hand(s) Do Not Fully Explain the Loss”
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is pretty hard to tell between your “shitting on Zuffa fighters” posts and legitimate question posts.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 8, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
speak for many that is…. silly post button.
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure he does. Does that think I am anti-UFC…LOL.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 8, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ive busted bones in my hand
Dont get me wrong, Im a Mike Brown fan and Faber annoyes me.
That being said, I think the choke he had would have ened it had he been able to agree with it. Ken Flo seemed to be of the same opinion and he was there (and knows more about BJJ then any of us clowns).
It seemed more like Mike Brown could hold on longer than Urijah’s hand.
by ryanwk628 on Jun 8, 2009 1:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fedor won breaking his ribs against Randleman and his hand vs both Goodridge and CC. I hate people using this excuse saying Brown couldn’t finish a one handed fighter, but uhh did they miss the first fight? lol
Yeah I think there will be a 3rd fight (ala Saku v Wand 3 because the 2nd ended due to injury) but I don’t think the result will change. Nor do I think Faber deserves a shot anytime soon.
by gunranger on Jun 8, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is kind of a retarded post...
First, it depends on the circumstances. Some fighters break a bone in a fight but the break happens in a way that they they can continue working. When Tim Sylvia broke his arm against Frank Mir he kept fighting and would have kept punching Mir in the head if Herb Dean hadn’t stopped the fight. Even during the post-fight interview he didn’t even wince in pain once. The break didn’t bother him until after he was backstage and took his gloves off and the adrenaline wore off.
Comparing Riggs vs. Baroni or say Franklin vs. Loiseau is almost entirely irrelevant. Baroni is hardly a champion level fighter and Louseau was terrible in his fight with Franklin. Also, I am suspicious of Riggs broken hands in the post fight interviews he was hugging Kevin Randleman and closing his hands together. Oftentimes when fighters describe their injuries their descriptions are hardly accurate. If Riggs hands were really broken, the way Faber’s were, he would not have been able to close his fist or grip Kevin Randleman’s hand.
Mike Brown is a legit top 3 featherweight and was the current WEC champion. And he performed great in this fight, he ate viscious elbows from Faber and got rocked in the first round and almost submitted in the last round. I thought Brown clearly lost the last round actually. Faber just seemed too fast for Brown and in reality, with the broken hands Brown should have finished Faber. I really thought Brown didn’t look all that great in this fight. Faber seemed the much more well-rounded fighter and was able to make a compelling, competitive match up against the best in the world in his weight class with a significant injury.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Any given night Faber or Brown can beat each other. Maybe one a bit more often than the other but not much difference. Many are saying Jose Aldo could give Brown lots of problems as well. I think it’s much more stacked than saying Brown is the top 1 guy forever. Any time of the year any of 3-5 guys could take the number 1 spot at featherweight.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right now, at this moment, Mike Brown is #1. On the two given nights that he’s fought Faber he’s won.
by FRANKIE on Jun 8, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Faber could beat Brown. Brown has beaten Faber. Twice.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 8, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
when I say I didn’t think Brown didn’t look great, I meant in comparison with how Faber performed. He did do well beating Faber and surviving…but that’s all I say Brown do really is just survive. Faber seemed to be trying to finish the fight even with two messed up hands.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Faber was trying to finish the fight like a madman over the last two rounds because he knew he had lost the first three.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. Brown knew Faber was injured. He should have capitalized. Anyone that doesn’t criticize Brown for not finishing Faber can’t criticize Heath Herring for not finishing Noguiera in their UFC fight.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t criticize Herring because Nog’s guard was like Mordor back then and he ain’g exactly a ground wizard. I can’t dump on a guy for winning a fight via decision when that option is presented to him.
It’s not like Brown LnPed his way to a title defense in Sacramento. That was a helluva fight.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brown didn’t LnP but he also didn’t really try to finish Faber. He seemed to gas and by the fifth he was just hanging on trying not to get subbed or hit with a crazy elbow or knee. I guess it was smart because Faber was still game despite the injuries and you can never underestimate someone like Faber…so maybe Brown played it safe and secured the win rather than go for a KO with more aggression. Faber couldn’t block with his right hand nor could he secure or defend from submissions. But Brown didn’t want to take the risk.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Every judge gave Faber one round and one judge gave him two, I would have to assume that it was the first round they all gave to Faber. I agree that Faber had to know he was down on the scorecards in general but with that hand like it was he probably was feeling a lot of need to finish for a lot of reasons. Of course I didn’t think Brown was out there fighting for a decision either, both guys were trying to win that fight.
by who me on Jun 8, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, no one is giving Faber a ‘complete pass’. What everyone is saying is that a third fight is still very interesting despite Faber losing the first two. The content of the performance outweighs the outcome is what I’m saying. Faber did much better than the outcome of this fight leads one to believe.
Mike Brown did well…but he should have finished Faber.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This I can agree with.
I have Brown winning again, but not in a walk.
by subo on Jun 8, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hu?
This fight would have been 100% different if Faber’s hand was not broken. Faber fought 4 1/3 rounds with a broken HAND (everyone has seen the pic’s, and it was VERY BROKEN). Would Brown still have won, maybe, but I bet Faber would have won two or three more rounds if he had his right hand at all. When you can’t grab ANYTHING, you can’t use your POWER HAND to punch for a knockout and you you have to think about your hand blowing up like a grapefruit (look at it when they take the wraps off after the fight), you will not be on you game.
With all that said, Brown did what he needed to do to win the fight, he used his power, got some great takedowns, and TOOK ADVANTAGE (like he should have) of the fact Faber’s hand was broke. Faber did a GREAT JOB to even stay in the fight for so long with that right hand (and maybe left), and in my eyes he still won 2 of the 5 rounds and maybe would have won the fifth had Brown not taken him down at the very end. Also that chokehold might have ended that fight in the 5th if Faber could have grabed his right at all.
I would love to see a 3rd fight, but Faber needs to pull back till Jan/Feb of 2010. He needs to let his hand get back to 100% or it will just break again. Brown is a legit talent and HE IS THE CHAMP, no one can take that from him and he won, end of story. Just please don’t try and convenience people that Faber’s hand being broke had little to do with this fight, it played into this fight tremendously.
by JustinWF on Jun 8, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
am I missing something?
Isn’t part of the fight and part of the skill set NOT getting yourself hurt? If you’re winging punches to the top of someone’s head and break your hand, it suggests you weren’t being very careful with your strikes.
Rather than speculate about what could have/would have happened, why not note that part of the reason that Faber lost and should have lost was that he broke his own hand? Going out and getting yourself hurt in the fight shouldn’t be used as an excuse for why you should have won.
by zozoetc on Jun 8, 2009 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Brown’s neck was begging to get guillotined the entire fight, I have to believe that the broken hand was the only reason Faber didn’t take it because I was shaking my head in disbelief at what I was seeing.
by Raker on Jun 8, 2009 2:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A long ass thread from Luke makes me believe he is a very big Mike Brown fan or he just doesn’t like Urijah Faber which would be weird because he has his pic with Urijah on the wjfk.com website.
Either way, I think this is kind of a dumb discussion. Clearly the fight was affected by the injury. Would it have changed the eventual outcome? Who knows, but I don’t think for one second Faber was performing to the best of his ability. Does raising questions diminish Brown’s win? Maybe, but he should have finished Faber to silence critics. He was clearly in a position to take advantage of Faber on the ground or on the feet but he couldn’t capitalize. That’s what makes a third fight still so intriguing. Can Brown fight of Faber’s offense if Faber doesn’t have to suffer an injury? Or is Brown just too big and burly for Faber that every time they meet something bad happens to Faber? Luke’s weird rationalizations come across more like a defense mechanism defending criticism of Brown’s performance. Criticism which is clearly warranted because he should have finished Faber. Brown had a good performance in that he beat a legend in the featherweight division for the second time in a classic fight…but it was not at all a great performance. It was really only a classic fight because of Faber. I thought Faber was on the verge of P4P greatness with his performance if he could have gotten the sub in the fifth.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you hit the nail on the head, my friend
Thank you!
I'm the kind of girl who loves to watch a GOOD fight!
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by funnytiger on Jun 8, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since when do you have to finish a fight to prove that you should have won? Fact is that Mike Brown is a man and Faber is a boy compared to him. Against anyone else in the division i’d take Faber, but never against Brown.
by ANance on Jun 8, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who said Brown had to prove he won? To me, and I think most people that looked at this fight some degree of objectivity, Faber’s performance is what stands out in the fight, not Brown’s. But according to a 10-point must system, it’s hard to think in any way that Brown didn’t win this fight. I’m saying that the fight was still very, very competitive despite Faber’s injuries. With a broken hand much less two busted hands, so much he couldn’t even close his right hand and couldn’t grip for a clinch or a submission, it was in many ways a remarkable performance by Faber and just a good, solid and cautious performance by Brown.
I didn’t see Faber do anything fundamentally wrong or have any glaring weaknesses that Brown exploited. Sure, Brown has better wrestling but we all knew that going in. But I saw Faber take power shots from Brown and shrug them off. Faber made this fight into a classic, not Brown. If the roles were reversed, and Brown had injured himself I see Faber taking the risk and pushing to finish the fight (and unlike Brown I think Faber would have finished Brown if he got any sort of advantage such as the one Brown got against Faber). That’s one of the main differences between the two.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To conclude my point, it’s not like Urijah was completely crushed in this fight GSP vs. BJ Penn II style. if we use that as a counter example, BJ (and his die hard fans) have been crying about the greasing ever since that fight claiming it affected BJ’s performance. And they may have a point. But BJ got so thoroughly thrashed in that fight no one in their right mind believes that the outcome would have been affected or that BJ really had anything more to offer. A little grease was not why BJ lost that fight.
However, in the case of Faber vs. Brown II, Faber was EXTREMELY competitive until the very end of the fight. He was constantly fighting for position, firing viscious elbows and kicks and knees, going for subs even with two messed up hands. I honestly had him winning the fifth round where I thought all Brown did was hang on and try not to get submitted or KOed with an elbow or a high kick. I didn’t see any fundamental flaws in Faber’s game that led to his loss. I saw a very game competitor and perhaps even more talented fighter than Mike Brown, lose in a decision.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Luke, why are you addressing Faber's fans who would use his
broken hands as the only reason he lost? I mean, I guess I kind of see your point that his hands of course do not fully explain the loss but who really is saying that other than diehard Faber fans in which case you are not changing their minds anyway. But giving instances of other fighters overcoming the same type of injury still leaves a lot open. Like, what level of competition did these guys see when they had their injuries? I would be willing to bet that it was not the level of Brown vs Faber that they pulled out a win against. IMO, seeing Faber go the full 5 rounds & not get stopped while almost pulling off a couple of close subs really does go completely against the base of your argument.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
by dnevil001 on Jun 8, 2009 4:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i see mostly brown fans on here saying things like brown’s a man and faber is a boy, etc. I wasn’t a fan of Faber or Brown before this fight but I became a fan of Faber after the fight. But you’re point is basically what most people are saying about the performance, Faber going 5 rounds and being real competitive with two busted hands is very, very impressive.
by DanielH on Jun 8, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right, I mean what logical person
would not have to give Faber major credit for going 5 full & not being finished while almost pulling off a couple of subs himself? I would never say Faber could have beaten Brown with two healthy hands, but I cannot discount the fact that he almost did with two jacked up hands & was able to go the distance.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
by dnevil001 on Jun 9, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow
Luke, that was a seriously wordy article. I don’t disagree but it could have been half as long easily. :)
-- FightCritic
by Armen on Jun 8, 2009 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
with all the talk on here about how Faber couldnt hang with Brown amd needs to drop to 135 asap, I would think there would be some more credit given to him being able to keep the fight that close when he fought 80% of it with a broken hand. The bottom line is “who knows” what would have happened if the injury didnt occur. Urijah was doing a good job of sticking and moving and scoring points with strikes, even after breaking his hand. He went to those lunging elbow strikes but they didnt let him keep distance. He was also using kicks for a bit but abandoned them late as well. I would have liked to see him use the kicks more late even if it made him more susceptible to more takedowns.
by Ozone on Jun 8, 2009 5:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I also gives much props to Faber for toughing it out and finshing the 5 round fight, I just didn’t see him winning either way. They way Brown controlled Faber on the ground reminded me of wrestling my little brother. I would like to see a third fight somewhere down the line, but I think the result would be the same. Brown is just too strong for Faber, broken hands or not.
by ANance on Jun 8, 2009 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Does #2 imply that in your opinion Faber isn’t game enough to accept the amount of pain required to implement a winning game plan?
I have K-1 level jiu-jitsu.
by ronniebonnie on Jun 8, 2009 6:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff Luke.
Sorry people can’t take an opinion and leave it at that. The bleed over from Sherdog and the fan boys make for a funny read. Keep up the good work.
by Riney on Jun 8, 2009 9:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very well said Luke… re’ed.
I appreciate the reference to Abraham’s W over Miranda.
We honestly don’t know what he felt, but there is some presidence of related injuries in combat sports, so it is very disingenuous to cheapen a W because someone got hurt. You have to protect yourself at all times and that mean even if you strike, be aware of where you strike and how you strike. You have only yourself to blame for getting hurt inside a ring or cage.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Jun 9, 2009 2:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You don’t cheapen a win due to an injury, but an injury puts a loss in more perspective.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 9, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What i don’t like is that people use the what if card way too often, and when you do that at least in my opinion that cheapens the work that got the W.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Jun 9, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Faber Wins If...
Plain and simple, if Faber hadn’t hurt his hands, he would have won the fight. He won the first round with two good hands. The only reason Brown closed the distance is Faber had to throw elbows, thus having to get closer to him.
by jayhoff2000 on Jun 10, 2009 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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