Next-Day Thoughts: Strikeforce: Shields vs. Lawler
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
in MMA News
Email
Print
- I never understood why Strikeforce would have Rafael "Feijao" Cavalcante on the undercard. The assumption was that they wanted him to fight Sobral for the 205 title and having him fight off of TV didn't make a lot of sense for a promotion that needs to build stars. However, all reports point to him showing up out of shape before getting knocked out by Mike Kyle of all people. Maybe he can still be a star for them down the road but for now I think you pretty much have to feature him on the Challenger shows.
- Kevin Randleman is done. He looked old. He still has some explosive athletic ability but he spent probably 14 minutes of the 15 minute fight just looking like a shot fighter. Whitehead didn't look much better in not ever looking like he had any interest in finishing "The Monster" but with Feijao losing it does open up the door for another challenger at 205. But does anyone really want to see Sobral/Whitehead 2?
- I think I finally achieved some respect for Phil Baroni last night. Not because he looked good (he didn't) or because he showed a dedication to improve his cardio (he didn't). But rather because no one has ever gotten more out of a 13-11 record than Phil has. Every card he is on he manages to become a focal point of the promotion because of his personality even if the outcome of the fight is completely predictable. Joe Riggs deserves some credit for continuing to throw power shots for three full rounds with broken hands and completely dominating the fight. Phil Baroni deserves some credit for making people care about watching him get punched in the face while he struggles to not pass out from a lack of oxygen.
- Nick Diaz is probably my least favorite fighter on the planet, but I still have to give him credit for just working non-stop on the feet against a guy with real KO power in Scott Smith. Smith has heart for days and may be the best "TV fighter" on the planet but he just didn't have an answer to Diaz's swarming style other than throwing home run punches. I don't have to like the guy, but Diaz looked impressive.
- Letting Andrei Arlovski go is one of those Dana White moves that just happens to look brilliant in hindsight. I'm not saying he let him go because he knew he'd eventually get KO'ed by Brett Rogers. But now looking back at it you no longer see the UFC letting a top 5 heavyweight go, just a guy who was probably a little overrated.
- The more important thing with Arlovski is that yeah, his chin isn't great...but where is the defense? I mean, for all the improvement in footwork and punching technique Andrei leaves his chin open way too often. His chin wouldn't ever hold up in the long run in a boxing career. The KO also means that he'll have a medical suspension which will keep him out of his boxing debut that was scheduled for 21 days from the Rogers fight marking at least the third delay to his debut that I can remember.
- I don't think we really learned anything new about Rogers last night. He hits really hard, but we knew that. I've heard a lot of people take shots at the way that he stepped in winging wide punches but he did that after catching and hurting Arlovski. He abandoned technique to finish the fight because it was his best chance of winning. The old "brawl a boxer, box a brawler" thing worked well for Brett and he deserves credit for the win. He's a guy I've always liked but I think we need to hold off before making any determinations of where he really fits into the division.
- Robbie Lawler could not have given that fight away more if he tried. He just leaned in and gave his neck to Shields. There was absolutely no reason to just bend over and stick his head there for the taking. If I learned anything from the main event it is that either guy being considered top 5 in their weight class is not something I can get on board with. Shields looks absolutely horrified when he is forced to exchange on the feet and Lawler just makes too many dumb mistakes but has been allowed to feed on guys that play into his game for the past couple years.
- The broadcast is just awful. The fed lines to Shamrock were corny, Mauro's puns are gag inducing, and Gus seems like he has regressed since the EXC days (when I was a big fan of his potential). But worse than all of that are the musclemen animations of MMA moves. Do I really need an animation of skinless men using poor technique to tell me what a jab is? If they feel the need to show what certain moves are can't they just use clips from actual fights? I enjoy the Strikeforce product, but there is a serious need to fix the broadcast going forward.
230 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
BE Staff Picks
Luke: 6-5
Nate: 4-6
Brent: 5-6
Fagan: 6-5
Eugene: 5-6
Leland: 4-7
Nelson: 8-3
by Chris Nelson on Jun 7, 2009 1:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i’m not an expert, but watching the animated man pull his hand back before extending his jab (the most obvious thing i saw) made me shake my head…..
the other problem: the nature of lawler losing to a guy he outweighs does not build him up for casual and Def not hardcore fans. seeing two catchweight fights and watching Nick Diaz behave as unprofessionally as nearly possible does not build casual/hardcore fan base…the fight’s premise was minus the Rogers “upset” as flawed in premise as was possible. Baroni (and I am a fan, no less so I hate to write this) looked like he had NO business being in the cage…..the broadcast and matchmaking was ATROCIOUS. it begs the question to even a semi-intelligent fan: if these were the best fights they could line up, why the **** would I order a PPV et cetera? ****, why should I tune into a showtime broadcast again?
—
I truly wanted to support the sport, support a promotion which functions beyond the monopoly of the UFC, but this was just terrible. Period.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/
by theworldsoldestsport on Jun 7, 2009 1:17 PM EDT reply actions
These weren’t the best fights they could line up. Why would they? They are still building the rosters and put on a mostly entertaining free card. The best matchmaking will be saved for the high dollar CBS shows where ratings will need to be fairly strong. This card was just set up to build a little and put some recognizable names out there.
Diaz was about as professional as I have ever seen him, lol. If you didn’t like the fights, don’t tune in. I watched with some fairly casual fans, and they were all entertained for the most part.
This card was not UFC level, but it was as good as most UFNs and to say it was “terrible”, is way off base. This is a sport and definitely a promotion undergoing growing pains, be patient and give them a chance to succeed.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Saved for CBS? If this were the case, then Cyborg/Carano would have been on CBS. I think it is obvious that CBS is not in the future os Strikeforce at this point.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
My bad, I thought that card was going to be on CBS.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Nope. Which really is the biggest news story coming out of the event. I think everybody thought that the Carano/Cyborg fight was guaranteed for CBS. The fact that they are wasting it on Showtime means something is going on behind the scenes that the fans don’t know about. Either CBS doesn’t want MMA on their channel right now, or they are putting it off for a while.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, I am fine with it not being on CBS. I always felt they would try and alter the sport for network tv. Should be interesting to see what happens.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Oh I agree. To get the ratings required on CBS, they need Kimbo Slice in the main event sort of freakshows. It’s not worth it.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you (BJJDenver) about Diaz. The whole “Diaz kicks Smith off of him” line from Brent was curious. I watched the ending again just now and saw Diaz put his feet on Smith’s back just so he could roll out of the way, he didn’t shove Smith thats for sure.
As for the commentating, i absolutely hate Gus Johnson. I understand that he is trying to hype the fights and such, but he says way too many incorrect or just plain silly comments “Nick Diaz is a SUPERSTARRR!!!!” for my liking. Specifically, when Frank Shamrock was asked what Diaz needed to do to sink in the RNC, Frank said “he’s got it” though clearly Nick still needed to get his hooks in. I saw that as a blown opportunity for Frank to let viewers in on how to actually secure the choke. (Something Joe Rogan is excellent at).
As for card, it was a decent show of MMA, but with two catchweight fights and a meaningless 205 bout i still don’t see where Strikeforce is going. They can obviously promote a Rogers v. Overeem title fight, but other than that..? Add to the fact that it appears CBS isn’t on board and it gets even more headscratching. What exactly is Strikeforce waiting for?
That's on me...
I didn’t look and someone else in the room said he kicked him off.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Diaz did that and pushed Smith after the horn in round 2 as well, I believe it was. Holding his chin out and being disrespectful is just par for the course for Diaz. I know that some of it is so he can get his opponent emotional which throws them off of their game, but the guy is a dick. You can’t deny that. He is an asshole. A great fighter, no doubt, but an asshole as well. His whole ’don’t believe everything you see on TV, i’m just promoting the fight’ comment was bullshit. Hey, Nick the dick, were you promoting the fight while fighting? You were a jerk then as well. I think he is an embarrassment to the MMA world, and his jerky little brother too. Shooting the bird constantly, belittling your opponent, and acting like a jerk is bad for the sport. That kind of crap helped to kill boxing. I can’t stand that guy.
Don’t get me wrong, Nick Diaz is a great fighter. He has proven that. Still, it doesn’t change the fact that he is a disrespectful dickhead.
- Feijao looked awful. And the punches that dropped him (at least from my view in the stands) looked really weak.
- Randleman getting out wrestled by Whitehead should be a good enough indication that he should probably take some time off and see the world.
- I’m very curious, rankings wise, whether Arlovski is going to lose more than Rogers gains. And if Rogers is in the top five after that, I’m gonna cry.
- They actually played those muscle men instructional videos on the big screens of the arena. It was an interesting decision, to say the least.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
I think Rogers ends up like #13 or so
and Arlovski drops to like #10.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Rogers could be as high as #8-#10. And i agree Arlovski is out of the Top 10. He should have never been ranked as high as #2 anyways. I think some of that had to do with WAMMA pushing his #2 ranking so hard before the Fedor fight, and some people bought into the hype.
However, based on his actual wins, he really hasn’t even beaten a Top 5 fighter (at the time of the fight) since his first win over Sylvia a long time ago. So for him to be #2 was a joke.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
HW rankings are pretty wonky, people get huge bumps if they can be scheduled to fight Fedro.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
I will say BEFORE Barnett/Fedor happens, that Barnett is not a Top 5 guy either. He is Top 10, with a good career record. But he has not done anything to magically move up the rankings over the last year by beating Rizzo or Yvel. Him being ranked #2 by most places makes no sense.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This ain’t FightOpinion. This is BE.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Arlovski was actually beating Fedor I believe. He was out boxing him and you could see that Fedor was taking a beating. Arlovski is a great fighter, I don’t think you can doubt that. Like Josh said, he had a bad game plan…walking backwards from a heavy hitter is pretty dumb. Yes, I know, Fedor knocked him out in the air with a spectacular one punch KO, but lets face it, you can’t make even one mistake against Fedor. Before that mistake though, I thought Arlovski was taking it to him.
Just adding...
Barnett was ranked 5th overall last July (when the meta-rankings started) and has slowly risen to #2 for no particular reason.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
No particular reason = Fedor nuthuggery
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 8, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess I should have written “good” instead of “particular.”
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
There's a reason
He has succesfully ducked Fedor til now while guys above him (like AA) have lost. Not saying he should be ranked so high, just that it’s hard to find people to jump over him because of the way the division has played out. Personally my rankings look like this:
1. Fedor
2. (vacant)
3. (vacant)
4. Brock
5. Mir
6. Randy
7, Noguiera
8. Barnett
9. Kongo
10. Carwin
Then Overeem, Cain V, AA, Gonzaga, Sylvia.
No dos Santos?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Also, it was funny to see the guy who came to the arena with a “NYBA BUSHIDO 4EVA” sign halfheartedly displaying it in the later rounds of the Baroni/Riggs bout, only to finally give it up about halfway into the Diaz/Smith fight.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
Shield wants to fight GSP, LOL. I thought Shields had a background in Muay Thai as well as BJJ? I’m not a fan of his so I wouldnt know to be honest.
The broadcast was pretty good I thought. Only thing I really didnt like was the ‘Keys to the cage’ thing. Not because it was cheesy to show muscle men animation when they could easily show footage of a fighter throwing a jab to keep distance or what have you, but because apparently there is only one key to every fight. And the segment is called keys to the cage. Also it seemed really basic.
Last night would be a perfect example on how not to box. No head movement at all by Arlovski, Baroni and Smith. None. zero. Smith was worst of the bunch. He got tagged 3 times in the opening seconds of the fight and from that point you would think he would try some head movement, but no..
Randleman has some huge gyno tits going on.. don know if anyone noticed that.
Yeah...
I talked to Rome during the broadcast about the “bitchtit” aspect of things. Made me think he is either “on” something but not taking the necessary replacements to prevent bitchtits (and testicle shrinking) or he is off something he was on up to this point and his body isn’t handling it right.
I think Smith didn’t WANT to move his head because he wanted to tempt Diaz into standing and punching him rather than taking the fight to the ground. The problem is he wasn’t able to land cleanly often enough to make Diaz back up. So it was just him keeping his head straight up while Diaz hit him a good 450 times or whatever it was.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought Randleman looked kind of like an over the hill bodybuilder, physique wise. Years of abuse showing up.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
thats basically what he’s been his whole career, a bodybuilder. And a wrestler… but he’s always had the cardio of a bodybuilder. Same with Baroni
You would think Smith would adjust his game plan when he’s not getting anywhere with it(assuming you are right in thinking that he just didnt want to move his head to bait Diaz).
I SWEAR TO GOD
I said “this is like an MMA version of The Wrestler” when I was talking to Rome during the fight.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t these guys realize that it is not in a fighter’s best interest to have those huge bodybuilder muscles? Unless you are a genetic freak like Brock and can’t help it the only thing that those huge giant muscles does is kill your cardio.
You are right. Look at Fedor, for example, or Randy Coutour even. They are big guys, but not body building kind of big. Each fighters body is different, but looks can be deceiving.
I thought it was funny that Frank Shamrock said on two occasions (Boroni and Randelmann) about how they looked great, then when they were getting the shit kicked out of them he said how looks can be deceiving and even said how it hurts them because they have no fat. Funny stuff.
At least Shields sets his goals high, lol.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
I think ufc4’s goals are set plenty high.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
-Great move by SF in keeping Feijao on the undercard. i also wanted to see him and didn’t understand this move, BUT, it worked out for them. One of their up and comers suffers a bad loss and nobody sees it, lol. Let him headline a couple of Challenger shows, then bring him up to the main card. But not against Babalu yet, Southworth maybe?
-I am willing to give Randleman a pass, based on the 3rd round. Perhaps he had ring rust for the first 2 and forgot to throw strikes? I say, give him another fight against some decent fighter, along the lines of a Whitehead. I know he doesn’t have a lot left, but I think he may have some.
-Baroni has always been a fun fighter, whether it is in slugfests or just as a character. I thought he showed heart, some improvement and even a little better cardio. It is probably to late for him to make much noise, but it is nice to see him trying to change ot up some. best of luck to him.
-Nick Diaz made me realize what I like the least about him…his brother. Please keep them separated as much as possible, lol. Damn, how much better does Nick look when he isn’t trying to make that hard cut? Some of his shots actually had power behind them! We should never forget this is still a very young guy and he is finally showing some flashes of what we thought he could be. Damn, if he can just tone it down a bit.
-I really want to see AA do well, but he just doesn’t seem to change at all. every fight we see the same thing. Barnett hit it on the head last night, he just back pedals and has no side movement. Mant guys with power that charge him, will do the same thing as Rogers.
-We did NOT learn anything new about Rogers last night, but now he has a big name KO on his resume. Keep taking the steps, but AO would destroy him right now. Buentello maybe?
-Lawler has been ridiculously overrated and all the people who wanted him back in the UFC, this and worse is what would happen to him there.
-The broadcast team was OK at best, but I don’t care to much about that. They weren’t terrible, but they weren’t good. How about giving Barnett a try in the “booth”? And damn, get some better camera angles set up, wtf???
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
by BJJDenver on Jun 7, 2009 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The good thing...
about Randleman is that he was fighting Whitehead. Anyone else would have done some serious damage during the first two rounds.
I actually brought up Buentello last night as a guy I think is a good step for Rogers. A) he’s safe in that Rogers PROBABLY wins and B) he has the chin to stay in for a while and let us learn a little more about Brett.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was literally screaming at the TV for Kevin to let go and throw some punches. he has plent pf power, but did nothing to keep Whitehead from coming in and throwing. If he had started the fight, or even the 2nd round, the way he did the last, i think he would have ko’d Whitehead.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
“-The broadcast team was OK at best, but I don’t care to much about that. They weren’t terrible, but they weren’t good. How about giving Barnett a try in the "booth"? And damn, get some better camera angles set up, wtf???”
They should bring back Bill Goldberg (wasn’t he the color guy when they were on Showtime before?). He is knowledgeable AND entertaining. Their team now comes across as second rate (sorry guys).
Strkieforce needs new fighters. It just seems like they have re-used soo many of the same fighters and now they just fucked over AA’s career by matching him up wih rodgers.
So it is SF fault that AA hasn’t grown as a fighter? He is one of my favorites, but what is he doing now that is a big improvement over a couple of years ago?
I think they are using these Showtime cards as kind of “test runs” to see who is going to step up for them and how they can improve their broadcasts.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
Yeah...
you can’t blame Strikeforce for fucking over AA. Arlovski took a fight that he was expected by most everyone to win easily but he didn’t do his part. That’s on the fighter, not the promotion.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did you see the look on his face after the fight? Truly made me sad. He just looked dejected and beaten. And I don’t mean like he had just been beaten, but rather that he was kind of lost and unsure where to go from here.
If you're not submitting, you're just rolling around with another guy.
I agree...
As a fan it reminds you how much they put into the fight game, physically, mentally, and emotionally.
If anything, AA has made an effort to become super one dimensional. You know he is pretty much only going to throw punches now. His repertoire consists of punches and an occasional ill advised flying knee.
by Dropkick434 on Jun 7, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right now the big question with Strikeforce is, what is after the August 15th show? Jake Shields, Nick Diaz, Thomson/Melendez, Carano/Cyborg, and Babalu all have no real challengers for them.
Arlvoski was always artificially built up by the UFC. Don’t get me wrong, he is a fringe Top 10 guy based on a weak overall division, but really his run as champion was built off of lesser opponents.
As for the production, it was horrible. Mauro dumps useless facts like he is being paid for each one. Frank Shamrock does what any current fighter should NEVER do as a commentator, and that is talk about his own fights. And the camera work was especially bad.
Overall, it was not a good show. The first few fights were hard to watch as multiple guys obviously didn’t come prepared and were gassed after a round.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 1:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Back in my day, Phil Baroni was 9 feet tall and had a 100 inch reach.
by bigweeze on Jun 7, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I thought it was another solid Strikeforce shows and they will have some pretty good challengers coming up.
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 7, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
MMA Gripes
1. If an opponent who’s supposed to lose wins in devastating fashion, it is because of (a) lucky punch, (b) loser didn’t take the fight seriously, or © loser didn’t use boxing skills properly.
2. Credit is never given to the less popular winning fighter, but excuses are always made for the popular losing fighters.
3. Fights are always seen in a boxing context, with fighters heavily criticized for not using text book boxing skills, even though this is an MMA fight where half of boxing can be thrown right out the window.
4. Brawling is not considered an effective striking method.
5. Fedor can’t be criticized. If weak chin fighter lost, it was because Fedor wrecked his will to fight not because fighter was born chinny. Never mind that losing fighter schooled Fedor in the stand up for 2.5 min before weak chin was exposed. Looking back in retrospect will incur the wrath of Cult of Fedor because the 2.5 min did not exist as Fedor destroyed losing fighter (the only memory that matters).
=)
by cyph on Jun 7, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, who cares if Fedor was losing that fight
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira made a career of being on the losing end of his fights, and then end up winning them. Also, there are fighters like Rashad Evans and Thiago Alves that have publicly said that they are slow starters, and it shows in that they will at times lose the first round of their fights. I am not going to hold it against Thiago Alves for being on the losing end of his fight against Derrick Noble and then winning. And the same goes for Rashad Evans against Forest Griffin. In regards to Fedor, I just don’t see the reason to hold that 2.5 minutes against Arlovski against him especially since he ended up winning that fight.
by chrisbboy82 on Jun 7, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was a tongue in cheek assessment. However, it does matter when people keep saying how no one can beat Fedor and that he doesn’t need to sign with the UFC. Fedor is definitely beatable and his record needs to be tested with the modern heavyweights. Before last night, I was with the Pro-Fedor crowd. After last night, not so much.
Arlovski’s horrible effort somehow diminishes Fedor?
If you criticize Fedor because of Arlovski’s performance, what does that say for all those HW’s AA beat in the UFC and could still beat?
Yes, guys like Tim Sylvia, Paul Buentella, Cabbage and Justin Eilers.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
In fairness, he also beat Aaron Brink, Ian Freeman, Vladimir Matyushenko, Paul Buentello, Marcio Cruz, Fabricio Werdum & Jake O’Brien. Though, it’s tough to count the Sylvia loss since he lost to him twice. He also lost to Ricco Rodriguez and Pedro Rizzo, which I mention only for the sake of completeness.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Those were the cream of the crop at the UFC HW division, yet, the UFC was still claiming of having the best HWs. =)
So, you’re supporting the argument that Arlovski’s status was little more than UFC hype? :)
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 7, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
That pretty much nobody pays attention to me or that I’m right? :-)
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 8, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The “brawl a boxer” thing just means that rather than match technique with a guy who is technically better than you, you go right at him with aggressiveness and force him out of his ability to use said technique.
Rogers deserves credit for his win, I just don’t know what we learned about him. That he has power? We knew that already.
Some boxing technique can go out the window, but footwork (not stance, but actual footwork), punching technique and defensive skills don’t go out the window. I’ve never talked to anyone who trains that says to avoid keeping your hands up when you strike or to abandon solid fundamental footwork or to not punch with solid boxing fundamental technique.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Good fighters find ways to win (Fedor etc.). Bad fights find ways to lose. BR has a 100% finish rate and a 90% KO rate. I have maligned AA for his chin, but not many fighters can crush him in 30 sec like that. Some guys are born fighters and Rogers may be one of them.
The technical stuff criticism is legit. However, perfect techniques mean you never get hit (Machida). Imperfect techniques and mistakes you make when your adrenaline is running separates the winning fighter from the loser. I’ve always said that perfect technique in the gym is thrown right out when a 260 lb man is coming at you with the intent of putting you to sleep.
not sure you are going on the Fedor thing? hasnt he won like 400 fights in a row??
but yes, people complain when if you dont strike like a boxer, but at the same time the best fighters in the world(fedor and machida) both have horrible “boxing”…
its the internet and everybody love to complain.
oh and the whole i hate nick diaz thing, i dont think people understand the back story of this fight, and the real beef and history that Nick has with Scott and Urijah(which that was all based around)
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com
by ekc on Jun 7, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
1. I think you, and people that like to say Fedor is over-rated, really over-estimate this “Fedor was dominated for 2.5 min” angle.
2. One thing I’ve been able to take away from the AA-Fedor fight and this fight is that, the one guy that has the tools to implement the “blueprint on beating Fedor” does not have the chin to do it and there’s really no other HW around that can emulate what he does.
3. Relating to 2. – a guy like Rogers is a perfect kind of fighter for Fedor to demolish…a guy who will brawl wildly and not use angles to try to “pick apart” Fedor’s looping style.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
The question of where everyone goes from here is a big one that Strikeforce will have to answer
Obviously, who does Nick Diaz and Jake Shields fight now? I mean there are fighters like Radach coming off losses that one of them could fight, but really, their strongest division (the Middleweight Division), has a champion in Cung Le doing movies and is in his late thirties. Fighters like Smith and Lawler are good/solid fighters, but they are have so many glaring holes in their game. Strikeforce really does need to build up their roster, and I can see them taking many former UFC fighters (especially those that have been cut recently).
Another thing that I question as far as rankings is whether Diaz or Shields are that good or are they just fighting many mid-tier at best competition? How would they fare in the UFC?
Nick Diaz is awesome.
Credit BB for looking past his dislike for him and seeing that he is a highly technically sound well rounded fighter. Alot of people get caught up with his need to play the psych. game during the fight and forget that he actually has accurate striking, awesome BJJ, and unreal cardio. He is a great fighter and deserves more respect than he gets.
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
I can’t understand why pundits/fans/whatevers need to qualify every Nick Diaz win with “I really hate the guy, but…”
This is not a dis to Brent, just something I’ve noticed across the board. I don’t see people saying “Matt Hughes is one of the greatest welterweights of all time, despite being a total choad.”
by Chris Nelson on Jun 7, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He will remain the most dominant WW champ ever until GSP defends a few more times.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
-ish
Depends on if he gets antsy and wants to fight Anderson at 185.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana’s got an iron fist, but GSP is The Golden Child. He’ll get the fight if he wants it.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Gotta agree with him there Chris, at least lately it seems like almost every other comment I hear about Matt Hughes includes a reference to him being a dick.
Maybe it’s because he’s a dick.
I mainly said it...
because I spend so much time on this site talking about how much I dislike him. I genuinely can not stand the guy so I’m going to make sure that people understand that I appreciate what he is able to do, but don’t confuse that with my condoning his behavior.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I gotcha.
My feelings on Diaz are also well known – I genuinely like and respect the guy – so maybe I’m just reading too much into it. He’s a pretty polarizing figure in the sport, so I guess it’s to be expected.
Zombie stance for the win, tho.
I think his upbringing
and life style have molded the man. My wife always tells me to tone it down, I don’t always realize when I am coming across demeaning and abrasive. I was a product of my childhood, as we are all. I am just lucky enough to have a wife who brought me out of it.
I don’t judge my fighters on their short comings as people, but their skill heart, and desire about fighting. If Diaz found the right “people/person” he would grow up and be likable. But I also think he needs the hate to fight.
Also
Strikeforce needs to stop trying to build up one trick ponies and average fighters.
Im looking at you Baroni, Smith, Lawler
I agree about Smith. His last two fights have him getting his ass beat while winging single haymakers. Lawler may be one dimensional, but he is a much more dynamic striker than Smith in my opinion.
Skinless creatures
They almost made sense this time, but if they are going to keep doing this nonsense, they should just stop with them.
You don’t need a skinless computer animation to show what a jab or a double leg takedown is, you can do that with live video from fights, or fighters just showing examples like they did with the fouls in the beginning.
The armbar one would have made sense if they would have thrown some color into the thing. Use different colors to show where the pressure is and what is actually going on underneath the skin, and shit, it’s a computer animation, show the arm break.
I know an omoplata when I see it, but i have no idea how to do it, what it feels like to get it done to you, or exactly what is happening under the tangled bodies. You could use computer animations to show it to people. Why they don’t use them for things like this instead of easily explained/watchable things like the jab and a takedown is beyond me
So i don’t want to completely bash them because they could be useful, if they go another show using them this stupidly I’ll jump aboard everyone else’s “kill the muscle men” campaign.
Yeah...
I guess I could see a point to them if they did something other than “this is how it would look if someone who has never trained did an armbar” and showed where the pressure comes from (hips..etc) and where it pressures the joint of the other fighter.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I honestly don’t get how they could not do that.
I work saturday nights, so I’ve watched both these shows on dvr. The first time I did not even stop to think about the skinless things, I just assumed they were doing what I said. After all the abuse I read about them on here last time, i decided to watch them when I watched the fights today, and I’m still shocked they are using them for jabs. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I don’t see how anyone anywhere can think that it’s a good idea.
They must be big fans of the show Fight Science. Fight Science used similar models, but they were trying to show the impact and effect of techniques on the body rather than demonstrate what a technique is called.
perv
:P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 7, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
They might without all that heavy skin.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Huh?
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, lets say Overeem demolishes Rogers. Would an AA/Rogers rematch be out of the question? How did AA feel about the fight last night?
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 7, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you talking to Rogers?
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He is overrated. He’s not a top three heavyweight.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, some of you are being overlycritical. This was a good and entertaining show. Sure its not perfect but neither was the UFC back in teh day. Give it time, fuck!
The ONE thing I can really do without are the skinless guys. Just creepy…
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people give him his bread."
Yeah...
it was a decent enough show. But you have to look at the bad as well as the good.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought this was a pretty entertaining card.
With a good UFC show I am usually left more excited about the upcoming fights that the results of the card I just watched suggest.
With this card the only exciting fight I see it creating in the future is Rogers/Overeem.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
I was there and overall was pretty disappointed. Maybe it’s because the only other live shows I’ve been to were both UFC shows or maybe it’s the 45 minutes I had to wait in line to get in the door and missed the first two fights but overall I expected more. Of course the two main events totalling less than 3 minutes didn’t help.
Shields is not top 5.
Yeah, he’s great with his BJJ, but there’s no way he can compete in the WW division in the UFC at the top level, let alone take on GSP. If his standup was any indication last night, the guy gets tuned standing with any decent UFC WW. I never bought the idea that Shields was as good as some people thought he was, and last night proved it.
I love me some Sexyama!
I think Shields could hang with Fitch and Hughes, as in have close fights with them, but I think a number of welterweights with the right style could beat him. Hell, even a guy like Marcus Davis has an outside shot.
To me, the guy the UFC should sign for 170 out of last night is Nick Diaz. He is clearly very improved, and I think could beat a lot of UFC 170 guys. Diaz/GSP is the kind of money 170 fight they don’t have in the wings after Alves.
There is a feeling in UFC right now, that if Shields fought there, he would be badly exposed
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely.
I think Nick Diaz has definitely improved and even matured somewhat (his dumbass comments aside). I think he could make a decent run if he were in the UFC again.
I love me some Sexyama!
Shields does not want to fight Riggs . Im starting to think he is ducking RIggs. I says Riggs picks him apart if he could avoid his takedowns. I think Shields realize losing to a fighter, that is not considered in the top ten in 170 weight class, would damage his stock. Robbie Lawler for him was a safe fight.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions
Hell, even a guy like Marcus Davis has an outside shot.
Rome agrees. Is that laughable.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That was meant to be a question. He made those comments, if look up
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And for evidence of Davis’ stellar takedown defense, see: Davis vs. Swick, Davis vs. Taylor, and Davis vs. Just About Anyone Who Has Tried To Take Him Down
Hey, at least he was smart enough to talk Chris Lytle out of even trying.
I would love to see what Shields could to against the elite at his weight class – we’ll simply never see that until he comes to the UFC.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You wanna talk about laughable. Robbie Lawler is not elite.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
‘This very website’ doesn’t rank anyone. You know that.
That and the Condit fight were three years ago – and unless you this Nick Thompson is an elite (top 5) welterweight, that’s the last time he fought one.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh you’re right, it isn’t just this website who ranks them so highly! Thanks for pointing out that everyone thinks Lawler and Okami are elite middleweights.
This website ranks no one
And everyone was wrong about Lawler.
Except me and a number of commentators on this site that have been saying he’s been overrated for a long, long time.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
“If that’s what they want, I’ll do it. I don’t even like the guy, I don’t want to give him the time of day, of fighting in the cage with him, but if that’s the fight they want, I’ll go out there and I’ll whip his ass. The guy’s beneath me. I don’t even think it’ll go past the first round.
That… doesn’t sound like ducking.
Thanks…I read the presser notes wrong…I still say deep down, he does not want this fight.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do people keep shitting on Shields’ stand-up? He went toe to toe with one of the best strikers in a heavier division for more than 2 minutes without eating a single shot, while landing several of his own.
How do you get “couldn’t hang with anyone good” from a literally flawless striking performance?
He looked terrified on his feet. Lawler has been overrated for a long time IMO
I dislike Matt Hughes.
No he didn’t. You just think he did because that’s what Frank Shamrock told you to think. Shields has been fighting professionally for 10 years, he’s not scared of being punched.
He looked scared when he couldn’t take Lawler down. He looked stiff and uncomfortable. His options were dwindling quickly as Robbie stalked him down, but he must have been so happy when Robbie gave up his neck. It was basically gift wrapped for him.
I love me some Sexyama!
Dwindling quickly? Dude, he had attempted one takedown. It was a minute in. Robbie didn’t tag him at all, and he was landing leg kick after leg kick. Robbie did screw up, but you’re acting like Jake was going to get killed in there, that he didn’t deserve to be in there with Robbie or something. It’s ridiculous.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Shields has enough standup to hold out until he can get it to the ground or capitalize on something like what Robbie did, but let’s not kid ourselves: he ain’t beating GSP or any other top tier UFC WW.
I love me some Sexyama!
I diagree. Would Alves and GSP beat him? Most likely. But Fitch, Kos, Hughes, etc? They’d all be very good fights.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Fitch, yes – that’s why I’ve got Shields #4
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
He turned away and looked like he was going to shit himself...
be real man.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude watch the fight,
He looked fucking terrified.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he looked terrified at all. You could see, like he said, that he noticed the strength difference. But the announcers were all over Jake after ONE takedown attempt. “OH HE’S IN BIG TROUBLE NOW!” No, he wasn’t. I think you’re all buying into the announcer’s propoganda a little bit in terms of that.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
Observations
Two things:
1. How people can still knock Jake is beyond me. His resume is better than every relevant WW out there (sorry Hughes) not named Alves or GSP. A dangerous grappler in a division full of wrestlers yeah I’d like his chances. His standup didn’t even look bad against Lawler who is better standing than almost all of the WWs.
And people need to stop talking like Kos is elite. He isn’t.
2. Dana didn’t let AA go. He and Lorenzo even went to his house to get him back but he wanted to do boxing. Overrated because he lost to Fedor and an up and comer? lol Man this shit don’t stop. What does it say about the UFC when their division couldn’t expose him then?
by gunranger on Jun 7, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
That’s what Dana will say in public, but it really came down to money. They did wanted to keep Arlovski and had the right to match any offer he received. Affliction offered Arolovski a high six figure guarantee and win bonus and it would increase to 7 figures in his next fight. UFC was not about to match that shit.
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
White has publically said he wanted to keep Arlovski but yes they weren’t going to over pay for him. Of course the way things of turned out not overpaying for him was definatly the right choice.
As far as the UFC divison not being able to expose AA, Tim Sylvia did beat him twice in a row. Their 2005 roster couldn’t expose Arlovski but then no one he fought in the UFC is still with the UFC anymore either. It’s an entirely different heavyweight division there than it was when Arlovski had the belt.
The only problem i see with Shields is that he needs to set up his shots better. Working on his stand up should help that. Lawler might not be the best WW, but Jake was able to finish him quickly and without getting hit by Robbie’s power shots.
As for your second comment, i think we can all agree that era of the UFC as far as heavyweights go sucked big time.
Im kind of curious if Arlovski took this fight serious and though if he would run through Rogers. He already had boxing match set, but I wondering why he took this fight when he should of been focusing on his debut?
by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 7, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions
Cuz he was told it was easy money
Fixed
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You're probably right - it just hits me weird
I don’t know – he was so fucking tentative. He came at Fedor with more intensity. But I’m sure the chorus of ‘Stirkeforce needs this, you’re not on the next Affliction card, he’s a can, it’s on Showtime, etc’ was deafening.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
HW linear Top 10
1. Emilianenko
2. Mir
3. Nogueira
4. Lesnar
5. Couture
6. Sylvia
7. Rogers
8. Arlovski
9. dos Santos
10. Werdum
A much better top 10 then any of the websites out there. It logically makes sense.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 7, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes – get dos Santos out of there and put Carwin in. I’m also taking Velasquez over Werdum.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you get the point of a linear top 10. Hint: Velasquez doesn’t belong anywhere near one.
Getting the point and choosing to focus on another one are different things. I pick my 1-10 based on whether I think every one of them could beat #11. I can’t name ten HW’s that I know for sure would beat Cain.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s about to beat Kongo (who belongs on ANYONE’S linear top ten with his UFC record)
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
“About to” and “have beaten” are two completely and totally different things in MMA. Just ask Pat Berry.
Very true
But I hate that Cain gets no love. Dude is a beast.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. But you have to string a couple wins together against some real talent. Just like Carwin’s fight against Gonzaga, this is Cain’s moment to shine. You know if Cain wins he’ll be right up there in the top 5 (UFC).
It’s probably a title shot for Kongo if he wins – I’d kill to see Cain v Shane if Cain wins.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you will. I can’t imagine a senario where putting those two “prospects” against each other is a good idea. The Nogeuria v. Couture fight will have a lot to do with what happens with Cain and Carwin.
Then who does Shane fight? I think everyone else is pretty much booked for the summer.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
He is also 5-0...
it takes a bit of time and a few decent names on the resume
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The perfect way to measure yourself as a fighter, is if you’re smarter in the ring than Robbie Lawler. If not, then chances are you’ll lose. If you are, you’ll just bank on Robbie’s stupidity like other fighters have countless times in the past.
Seattle Seahawks: We've got Brian Russell and TWO kickers!
Anyone notice how many current or former UFC champs were there last night? Anderson, Big Nog, Timmy, Barnett, Randleman, Andrei, anyone I’m missing?
He was probably the only future UFC champ there.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
How many non UFC veterans were on the main card?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Three
Rogers, Shields, Whitehead. The other 70%?
Arlovski (9-4 in UFC before deciding to leave. Good call not paying him big bucks, Dana.)
Lawler (4-3 in the UFC, 1-3 in his last four with org)
Diaz (4-4, lost last three)
Smith (1-3, only win against Pete Sell)
Randleman (4-3, last fought there in 2002)
Riggs (3-4. got kneed in the face by Diego Sanchez)
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 7, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
On Andrei Arlovski, this could easily have been his third straight loss if he hadn’t gotten that completely unjustified ref standup in his fight with Rothwell.
I'm sure you mean Nelson...
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 7, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
