Pushback on the UFC's Use of Kimbo Slice on "The Ultimate Fighter" Season 10
by Luke Thomas on Jun 4, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
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Zach Arnold laments the situation:
Don’t get me wrong, Dana White made himself a no-lose business deal here. He got exactly what he wanted. However, to watch the upcoming charade that a lot of UFC water carriers in the media are going to parade is going to be completely nauseating to watch. Time after time, I’ve heard every excuse in the book as to why someone should be justified in associating with questionable figures. "It’s the fight business!" So, be prepared over the next several months in dealing with Kimbo Slice hype and media writers who so desperately want to curry favor with UFC to make every lame, pathetic, intellectually lazy excuse in the book to try to come up with different justifications for Kimbo Slice and UFC working together as being ‘good for the sport.’ It’s good for UFC’s pocket books, but is it ‘good’ for the sport? Depends on what you mean by that.
...
The great irony in watching Dana White six months talk about how Kimbo Slice is bad for MMA is that now he’s Kimbo’s biggest pusher in the business. All the guys who tried to work with Kimbo Slice to make him into something in MMA (I’m looking at you, Bas Rutten) have to be shaking their heads and laughing at what is going on. Furthermore, what message is being sent by Zuffa to young, up-and-coming MMA fighters? For all the talk about how UFC is a real sport while PRIDE and other promotions were carnival acts, it sure feels like Dana White pulled a page right out of PRIDE’s playbook here to help bring some much-needed energy for his reality TV show.
There really is something to this. White's hypocrisy on the issue of Slice - namely, the invitation to try out for the UFC via TUF was partly a mocking and degrading gesture, White's clear record of belittling Slice's MMA abilities and White's suggestion that ElliteXC's use of false image pretense blended with street violence glorification via Slice's YouTube infamy was harmful to mixed martial arts - is on clear display. And no matter what strategic brilliance the decision to enlist Slice in the TUF army demonstrates, there is something unsavory and overly opportunistic about the entire affair.
Arnold's mistake, though, is that he is trying to draw parallels between Shaw's use of Slice with White's to ultimately suggest there is a distinction between what the two did, but not much difference. Arnold is confusing a difference in degrees with a difference in kind. "Signing Kimbo Slice" is not a static concept locked in time that means that same things just for a new party. There are two key critical considerations to keep in mind here.
First, for all of White's hypocrisy (and there is plenty), the UFC is still running Slice through a rigorous vetting process. While Gary Shaw relied on one amateur bout with a financially and athletically desperate Ray Mercer in Cage Fury Fighting Championship and the judgement-free world of YouTube, White & Co. are relying on all of that plus Slice's experience in professional MMA plus (ostensibly) a record of success against other young prospects on the show. Of course, White is using Slice to bring the circus to town, but he is not doing so without screens in place to test the mettle of Slice while he protects the UFC brand. Unless matters change later, this is a vetting process. Additionally, White is spinning a storyline when he says Slice can prove he legitimately belongs among the ranks of heavyweight professional high-caliber fighters with success on the show, but he's also correct. There is a redemptive opportunity here for Slice that should not be denied him even if it's manufactured.
Second, there is nothing wrong with using Slice's popularity to promote the product. And here's where difference in type and difference in kind shows up the most prominently: Slice's popularity is impossible to ignore, but his baggage and dubious future make the packaging and use of it a delicate task. Even top-shelf promoters face serious dilemmas as giving him enough of the right kind of exposure without being fraudulently soft is almost too delicate a balancing act. But not for the UFC and for a very obvious reason. In this case, White doesn't need to pair Slice up with another fighter who can both sell tickets and provide some kind of respectable scrap. White has married Slice to the television show itself. Slice is able to be legitimately tested with opponents of commensurate abilities while turning in ratings without White having to worry about a financial bottom line for live gate attendance or pay-per-view draw.
And that is what I mean when I say this decision by the UFC to use Slice on the reality show proves the power of the brand. Whereas other promoters are awkwardly trying to find the right balance of how to use Kimbo Slice without destroying him and the company on main card fights, White is able to use the apparatus of a reality television show that's something of a crude developmental UFC program. White has created drama, but he isn't trying to manufacture a completely unsustainable reality because of financial pressures. In short, no other promotion or MMA organization has that capability to navigate this problem correctly. Honestly, who else in the MMA universe has those tools and leverage to make the situation operable? Who else has the vehicles? No one and it isn't even close. Were it not for the UFC machine's vast set of resources, the situation would be virtually untenable for others, at least in North America.
Let's also not forget that the longer the UFC holds onto Slice, the more White robs his competition of the opportunity to utilize a non-UFC fighter with legitimate, financially-lucrative celebrity.
We should be mindful this can all change. We afford White some language leeway because, while regrettable, his status as a promoter does give him license to exaggerate and backpedal. But it doesn't give him license to white wash (no pun intended) everything he has said or professed that he stood for. White and the UFC brass are viewed by many as the only reliable corporate executives in MMA who both understand the need to infuse drama and the spectacle of raw entertainment into their sport while preserving it's integrity. For them to use Slice in pay-per-view events should the former EliteXC star be throttled early and often on the reality show would be a major reneging of what the UFC management claim is a central tenet in their business practices. But for now, the decision to use Slice in this format is not worthy of lamentations. This is a reason for excitement.
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If Dana had signed Lesnar/Slice, I'd understand being pissed. BUT HE DIDN'T.
Zach Arnold hates the UFC. That is all.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i think mr. arnold hates every mma org equally. he seems to emphasize more on the negative alot more than the positive. i really don’t get his angle at all, but i do visit his site daily for the updates on different sites. usually i try and ignore him. :-)
by bdw on Jun 4, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He may just be trying to be Socratic – critical of everything.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
You just compared Zach Arnold to Socrates.
I am at a loss.
...Behold, a pale horse. The man that sat upon it was Wieters, and hell followed with him.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
I made a speculation as to his intent; in terms of role and quality, I would never be so obtuse.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
“The socratic method is a form of inquiry and debate between individuals with opposing viewpoints based on asking and answering questions to stimulate rational thinking and to illuminate ideas”
ASKING QUESTIONS not being critical of everything. i can’t believe you compared arnold to socrates..
Are you seriously that invested in Zach Arnold?
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 5, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I no longer even bother with Fight Opinion. Instead of being objective, Zach seems to work hard to find fault with almost anything.
And if it includes Zuffa, Ivan will chime in almost immediately.
I think Zach knows what he is talking about, but I have grown tired of his constant negative writings.
In as much as there are issues with the MMA media, Zach is just as much at fault as the “UFC water carriers” he is talking about.
ivan trembow and alan conecio are both Socratic of all things ufc. zach hates all. :-)
by bdw on Jun 4, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha ha ha! New BE catchphrase, ahoy.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana White’s stance on Kimbo Slice did not change. From nearly the beginning, he said he would put him on TUF. That is exactly what he did.
Not much need for analysis beyond that.
I agree. And I think what we will see, no matter what happens, is Kimbo fight on the TUF finale card against one of the other guys that don’t win it. That is if Kimbo doesn’t make it to the finals. When he wins that I bet we’d see him on a main card PPV event. If he loses three in a row he will be cut for sure. It’s no different than if he were Junie Browning or any of those other TUF guys.
To me, this:
White and the UFC brass are viewed by many as the only reliable corporate executives in MMA who both understand the need to infuse drama and the spectacle of raw entertainment into their sport while preserving it’s integrity. For them to use Slice in pay-per-view events should the former EliteXC star be throttled early and often on the reality show would be a major reneging of what the UFC management claim is a central tenet in their business practices. But for now, the decision to use Slice in this format is not worthy of lamentations. This is a reason for excitement.
…is the heart of the issue. Those rushing to judgement are doing so without the outcome of the events as part of the evidence, and while I’m not suggesting that the ends justify the means, the means in this case are not in and of themselves unethical. It’s whether or not the UFC stays consistent through the process (consistent to their own stated principles, that is) that will ultimately provide the basis for judgement. Maybe I’m naive enough to want to see what happens before I form my opinion, but I’ve seen nothing thus far that either precludes a positive outcome, or ensures a negative one.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I don’t see it as any more hypocritical than most of Dana’s hyperbole. He said the only way Kimbo could have a shot at the UFC was via TUF, and that’s how it’s playing out. He’s not a walk-on headliner. If he makes the UFC in the end, Dana can attribute it to proper training. If he doesn’t, Dana can say youtube doesn’t make you a black belt. Dana’s in it to spin it.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions
luke
nicely put. kimbo probably could be making hundreds of thousand or maybee even milions over in japan or in boxing, but has chosen the hardest path. he still might be able to pull in good money, even if he fails on tuf, but at leasy he will have tried. some fans had alot of problems with kimbo when he was with elite, but i think most had problems with gary and $kala
Yeah, I had huge problems with Shaw and EXC, but I never held anything against Kimbo other than the fact that I didn’t think he could fight. Kimbo was just taking advantage of what was offered to him. He’s always been pretty humble. He’s got another opportunity in front of him, so I don’t mind, cause I’d do the same thing.
I love me some Sexyama!
Well written, Luke.
For them to use Slice in pay-per-view events should the former EliteXC star be throttled early and often on the reality show would be a major reneging of what the UFC management claim is a central tenet in their business practices. But for now, the decision to use Slice in this format is not worthy of lamentations. This is a reason for excitement.
This is what will determin, for me at least, how credible Dana is when it comes to Kimbo. If we see Kimbo get beat easily and quickly by various opponents, then all of a sudden appear on a main card PPV, that’s definitely cause for suspicion. Dana has to play this one carefully. In the end, if Kimbo turns out to be a can, (which I suspect he is), it would be better for the UFC to just wash their hands of him. It wouldn’t be the first time the UFC chewed up and spat out a fighter, and then later devalue their worth through various different media, or simply refuse to acknowledge they exist anymore, thus taking away a lot of the tangible benefit that could be had by other promotions using ex-UFC fighters.
We’ll see how things turn out, but I for one am very excited to see how this ends up. I personally have no problems with Kimbo trying to get a do-over.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Jun 4, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Nice, we even used the same quote!
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m usually the one writing what someone else has just written. It’s nice to be first off the mark for once. Must mean I don’t have enough to do at work today.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I expect that Dana would be just as happy to cut a newly discredited Kimbo as he would be to push a successful Kimbo.
I imagine that we will see him fighting on the finale show regardless of the results of the season but I doubt he will get pushed beyond that without showing some skills.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
There have been plenty of guys who lack skills to get into the TUF house. Wayne Weems for example. It is not unusual by any means. Its the only place in the UFC for Slice. Its a place they can use his draw, make sponsors happy, and not put him in a situation where he is way over his head. People hate this because of the big name involved and the history. Truth is the skill of this fighter matches the position he is in. Who’s spot on TUF did he take up. Find out and make the argument, but until then stop bashing the guy that has made a career course correction and is swimming in the shallow end of the pool. From Network TV main events to UFC minor leagues.
Exposure
Maybe he is giving him a bona-fide shot at fighting for the UFC……….Maybe he is looking at the $$$ that Mr. Ferguson could generate for the UFC………..But what I believe he is doing is exposing, to the whole world on prime time television, what a FRAUD Kimbo Slice really is. He got KtFO’ed by Seth Petruzelli! You take him off the street, and put gloves on him, he is no more talented than any current undercard fighter in the UFC.
That’s exactly Luke’s point.
This is the way to find out what Kimbo really is, and it’s 0 risk for Zuffa. No matter what happens, TUF is going to get insane ratings.
If Kimbo wins the show, he’ll be a more proven fighter, and he’ll have earned the right to fight on UFC cards. If he gets his ass kicked, Dana will continue to talk shit, and will have a number of fighters who he can say is “better” than Kimbo because they beat him in teh TUF tournament.
If Kimbo wins 1 or 2 fights, he’ll get a few fights against reasonable competition on UFC shows and everyone will make money.
The truth will be revealed when...
The truth will behind Dana’s intentions w/ Kimbo will be revealed if Kimbo loses quickly/badly on TUF & Dana still uses him on PPV.
Yes, TUF losers are often given another chance, but it’s usually on the undercard of a UFN or the UFN televised card at best. So if Kimbo is a TUF reject & is then fighting on PPV, we’ll know Dana is pulling a Shaw… not to the same level by making him the poster boy of course… but still riding that money wave. And THEN he would be a hypocrite.
But for now, there’s nothing wrong with what’s going on – it’s a brilliant move for the UFC & an entertaining one for casual & even hardcore fans to watch.
Keep Swillin',
Bruz
That’s a long way away for now, but you are right. But I pose this question, If a guy gets a fight on PPV how do they decide if it goes on the main card or the under card? From the past I would say drawing power or exciting fight potential or in rarer cases they want to push the guy. Okami is a classic example of a guy very close to a title shot, fighting important fights on the under card.
I agree and Disagree..
I would think most of us have watched the clip. I think Dana White…as a Promoter is doing the right thing, and as for himself, is also doing the right thing. I strongly think Kimbo is useless as an ultimate fighter…but he can* change, the question is will he? The internet claims he is 35…now if thats true, that would make him quite old for a fighter. Now I know there are a lot of fighters older then that, most of you will say Chuck Liddell, but cmon, are we really comparing the two, if need be: Chuck has been “ultimate fighting” for years, unlike Kimbo’s street boxing…well thats all I really need to state. And I am not saying you cant teach an old dog knew tricks, but in this case…this is Ultimate Fighting, not magic, or painting lol. As your body ages is it harder to work, I like that Kimbo is trying I respect him for that but I just doubt at 35 years old, a guy his size is able to get his cardio in shape to last 3 rounds..yea all 3 fights he’s huffin after the first round. never mind learning the technique of Muay Thai or BJJ. Dana Clearly states the only way Kimbo would get on UFC is through winning TUF.
So Kimbo’s fans will follow him to UFC, and if he wins then UFC does well and Dana will be proven wrong, and he has stated hes ok with that. But if he doesnt win TUF, then everyone will be right and the hype will end. Remember, Im not saying all*, but most* of Kimbos fans are not abid UFC fans, they dont understand the whole mental/physical chess game theory. Kimbo won his fights fair and square, but cmon, has he fought any true hard a$$’s…look at the damage Petruzelli did in 14 seconds..imaging Kimbo facing a Couture, Carwin, or Mir…
this is Ultimate Fighting
Jesus Christ, is it? I thought it was MMA! The UFC HAS TAKEN OVER; Supremacy, run for the hills!
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Arnold
Why is Zach Arnold even taken as a serious voice anymore? Luke was kind enough not to post the parts of this story that go off in obscenity-laced rants and/or shouts in all caps like a Sherdog white belt. And this doesn’t even go into the fact that two days earlier Arnold was calling this “the biggest coup in UFC history” on his site.
Seriously, for actual news my blogs are bloody elbow, cagewriter and fanhouse, for humor I go to fightlinker and cage potato. Arnold and his little clique are the MMA equivalent of left or right-wing conspiracy theorists and should be treated as such.
I think Arnold is an important voice if for no other reason than he can be trusted to go against the grain more often than not. That doesn’t mean he’s always right, but it forces everyone to reconsider their own opinion with respect to a contrary argument. And I’ll say this as an old competitive debater – while I sometimes think his general case is a big leap of reasoning, his arguments are usually “valid” in the technical sense and comprehensible, which makes them a step up over about a billion other (non-MMA) blogs. I read his writing for the same reason I read the editorial section of the newspaper – there’s going to be something in there that is completely opposite of what I think, and I’ll get angry, and then I’ll get over it and have to actually think about it. Even if he just gives me something to constructively disagree with – and I do think he offers more than that – I count his writing valuable. But it’s certainly, I think, valuable for different reasons than what’s posted on the other sites you mention (and I think I visit the exact same list of sites that you do!).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, well, you can get away with saying it in one line because you have your own blog. Us average schmoes have to make arguments.
Also, I like to hear myself speak.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
Arnold deserves to be taken seriously, if for no other reason, because he was the only English-speaking MMA news outlet that covered the Pride Yakuza scandal and their subsequent downfall. Even veteran MMA writers like Gross & Melzer just assumed it would blow over and that it was a non-story.
Every one else called him a tinfoil hat wearing nutter (and worse) when he claimed the Shukan Gendai articles were legit, that the scandal had serious implications for Pride, that losing the FujiTV deal was a major blow, and that Pride’s USA expansion was a last ditch effort to save the company. It ends up, he nailed it. He was right on all counts. When he believes in something, he is not afraid to take a wildly unpopular opinion and run with it. That alone buys him a great deal of credibility. Even if he has devolved into a bit of a crackpot recently.
by Steve4192 on Jun 4, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The problem is that ever since the Pride collapse, Zach seems to be searching for the next great scandal.
Luke says that Arnold valuable to the online community…he could be valuable if virtually every statement from him can be predicted.
Being critical simply for the sake of being critiical quickly removes all relevance.
In addition, he is quick to attack other writers for being partial to the UFC. Is he correct? Sometimes, he comes across as holier than thou way too often.
I had followed him for years, even when I disagreed with him. But in the last six months or so, I find myself going to FO less and less. When I do, I often can figure out the contents before even reading a peice.
the UFC is still running Slice through a rigorous vetting proces
I dont want to sound like a paranoid person but we don’t know how rigorous the vetting will be.
watchkalibrun.com
Rigorous = drug test before the show starts
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
He still has to win. And we’ve seen from favourites getting exposed in earlier TUF seasons, that the UFC may try to push for specific matchups, but the fighters fight and usually with everything they’ve got.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Kimbo Earning His Way Onto The UFC A Perception To Accept Him In The UFC?
The Vancouver Sun wasted no time in talking about three Canadian fighters allegedly getting axed from The Ultimate Fighter in favor of building a new season of the show around Kimbo Slice and 15 other heavyweights.
In an effort to focus the show on Slice’s quest, the UFC killed the light heavyweight and middleweight portions of the show and started firing off last minute invitations to assorted heavyweights – including a host of former NFL football players – to join him on the show.
That spelled doom for Canadian MMA fighters Nick Hinchliffe, Marcus Vinicios and Luke Harris, who had made it past several auditions and were looking increasingly likely to make the final cut.
If this is true, it is pretty clear to me that no matter what happens, Kimbo will indeed be fighting on the Ultimate Fihter Season Finale card and in the UFC. Kimbo is this season’s Junie, and conveniently being able to remove the eliminators, that guarantee Kimbo in the TUF season , is something SPIKE is really happy about, I am sure.
This season was always going to have HW and they never have three weights, someone doesn’t have there facts strait. I like Vinicios. He will Capoara your ass.
Isn’t Chris Parry a frequent poster here? We should just ask him what he’s basing that statement on.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Jake Rossen Is Also Saying The Same Thing
Largely forgotten amid the Slice frenzy is the group of lighter-weight athletes who were close to appearing before the season shifted to an all-heavyweight format. Nick Hinchliffe, Luke Harris and Marcus Vinicios are among those who missed the boat.
Maybe next time.
The HW division is in more need of fresh blood than any other – these guys are casualties of that more than anything else.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I can only imagine that you’d have blamed Ishii the way you’re blaming Kimbo.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Idealism vs business
The real issue here is nothing more than Mr. Arnold’s idealism clouding his business judgment. This same outcry happened when Lesnar was introduced into the UFC; people cried fraud, manipulation by Dana, etc etc. Lesnar has silenced all the critics and has proven to have been a right choice by UFC brass. The great thing about sports is if a guy is over-hyped he will be immediately exposed. This isn’t TV or the movies where someone can be made into a star by crafty editing, scrip selection, special effects and the like. You can either perform at the level or you can’t. Dana bluffed by bashing Kimbo and Kimbo called it, and Dana is playing the hand. Mr. Arnold should praise Dana for making good on his comments instead of just dismissing Kimbo altogether.
Yeah right. Dana and SPIKE are more than happy to have KIMBO on TUF to increase their flat ratings.
This is equivalent to PRIDE Super Hulk Tournament, where they need the ratings, or else TUF would go away for a weekly Fight Night show on SPIKE instead.
Giving Kimbo a roster spot on TUF does not equal signing Jose Canseco to fight Hong Man Choi.
Those things aren’t even on the same planet of ratings desperation.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Ferguson could take Canseco.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
It’s a tough one. I think Canseco lasted longer against HMC with an injured knee than Kimbo would. =)
You’re nuts – it’s also not the same thing to give Kimbo a fight on a PPV card or even a Fight Night as it is to sign him to a reality show.
There is no comparison.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
ratings have actually gone up last season and this.
TUF ratings have been stronger in the last two seasons than the previous couple.
Will Kimbo bring up ratings? Likely, but TUF was nowhere near close to being cut. A 1.0 is a success for an original basic cable show and TUF has made that for all but two episodes. When you take into account the numbers they deliver in the Male18-49 and Male18-34 demos, the show is making Zuffa, Spike and advertisers happy.
yea but dont forget one thing, the greif wasn’t about whether Brock could fight or not…well some was.
But there was a huge cloud over the fact he got a title shot after only 3 matches…not even agaisnt the top 3 ranked fighters…it was indeed a sham. Thats how that was all business
That's the thing
If Dana wanted Kimbo/Lesnar, guess what? We’d have Kimbo/Lesnar. Today.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
No, need to somehow make Kimbo seem legit.
TUF = Answer. =)
by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 4, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think so, some pretty damn good rumored fighters (for heavyweights) this season.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Actually, the NFL is where a lot of the big athletic Americans end up. Its a great place to pull talent from and a LOT of O linemen have a wrestling background.
Yeah, when they are young. Johnnie Morton also tried.
The only somewhat successful one was Michael Westbrook.
Morton was a tiny guy. He had a background in… steroids. Westbrook’s background in BJJ. At HW, a lot of NFL guys have college wrestling. The guy that beat Brock in the finals of NCAA plays for the pats.
Finding ex-NFL talent, who are in their mid 30’s, to be deemed a future HW prospect seems a bit odd to me.
There are no legitimate young heavyweight prospects in MMA, almost all of the athletically gifted get yoinked into other sports.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Probably, but it is a problem of the division, there are a lot less people who are that big and athletic, and most of the athletic ones are picked off by other sports.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
There are VERY few heavyweights in Canada. I recently helped a small MMA org try to find some fighters in western Canada to compete at HW, and we found precisely no one who even had enough experience to be considered a legit prospect.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Tim-Hague was Canada’s biggest prospect and no one wanted to sign him. After years, he finally got in the UFC. There are also a bunch who are ex hockey players that are currently fighting in MMA.
Sorry, should have specified: in the lower-tiers (potential prospects); and as much as I’m happy for Hague getting a shot, I don’t think he’s exactly a top-shelf prospect. And yeah, there are guys like Bosse out there, but he’s not exactly what I think of when I try to picture an up-and-coming HW prospect either (much less so than Hague).
I honestly think that it’s a product of population dynamics. The population density is so low outside of southern Ontario (and the overall population not being that high – I think we’re about 1/9th of the USA at the moment), that the rarest fighters by physical build find it hard to get competition. It’s guys with 0-0 or 1-0 records banging it out, then once one of them strings a couple of wins together, there’s almost no one else to fight them. That, and everyone trying to cut the hell out of their weight lately to fight in the lowest possible class means that guys who woulg have been fighting at HW five or six years ago are now trying to hit LHW or even MW.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Drawing guys away from there NFL dreams is a big deal for the sport. More big guys = more depth at HW. The NFL pick off the top big athletes and uses them for ten years. Opening up another path for these guys is key if you are going to get the great top wrestlers into MMA.
Also Read this article
Rex is not in TUF 10
In addition to Jones, Mitrione, Schaub and Shivers, a fifth football vet earned a spot on the cast but was forced to give it up. If it weren’t for an injury suffered just prior to the show’s taping, former Texas Tech stand-out lineman and Indianapolis Colts practice-squad member Rex Richards would also be on the show.
However, a source close to the fighter told MMAjunkie.com that Richards suffered a partial MCL tear just five days before he was set to leave for Las Vegas. Doctors couldn’t clear him to compete, so he was forced to give up his spot in the “TUF” house.
Is it any more odd than finding engineers in their mid 30s to be deemed a future HW prospect (Shane Carwin)?
Prospects come from all kinds of different backgrounds.
Come on, he was an NCAA Wrestling champion. Its not like he went from being an engineer with no background to MMA. =)
I prefer Rosi Sexton who is a doctor and fights MMA, but yeah, there are those rare exceptions.
This is the way the sport it going to be for a while.
10 years ago it wasn’t viable to go from NCAA wresting to MMA. And only so many people can go to the Olympics.
Even coaching college or hs wrestling isn’t even really a full time job for many of them, they had to go get real jobs and now, if they are still in shape and there’s an opportunity like TUF coming along, they should take their shot.
As others have stated, a lot of NFL guys also have backgrounds in wrestling.
Funny how you choose to ignore that with them but it suddenly becomes important when talking about Carwin.
Not ignoring it, but, thats not the case. If they were great athletes that wrestled and played in the NFL, the chances are they are still in the NFL getting paid good money or maid good money, of course, unless they got injured.
Its College Football players that also did wrestling I agree, are good prospects.
Won't somebody PLEASE think of the smarks?
The redemptive quality of sport is central to its utility. This isn’t politics. This isn’t the BCS. Kimbo is a moneymaker for Spike and the UFC and we’ve been done a service by not watching him get pushed to the moon in the same fashion as Lesner.
Regardless of the hype (and the potential for spectacle) the rise or fall of both men will largely occur inside the cage. Is a show with alumnus the likes of Junie Browning supposed to apologize for bringing in Kimbo?
by nani on Jun 4, 2009 5:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good post. Thats the point exactly. Kimbo BELONGS on TUF. The 2 fit like hand in glove. He is a charismatic guy that people wanna watch, whether they love him or hate him. Thats pivotal to the success of TUF and why it often focuses on the non-fighting side of its contestants. With slice, they’re starting the 100m sprint from the 50m mark.
I tend to agree with Supremacy though that whatever happens, Slice is gonna end up on UFC ppvs. He has to. I mean, Dana is all about the Benjamins, and he is just gonna let a draw like Kimbo get marketed through the roof by TUF and then disappear from the UFC scene to bolster the marketabiliy of some other promotion like Strikeforce? No way.
Whether you like the idea of Slice in the UFC or not, it really shouldn’t come as much of a surprise as, for better or worse, the bottom line has always governed the actions of the UFC.
If Kimbo shows that he can’t even beat semi-respectible cans (as in, guys who are at least above present day Tank Abbot level), he’ll be cut. The UFC wouldn’t risk endangering it’s brand by keeping around someone who can’t actually fight. If he’s moderately successful, sure he’ll be promoted like he’s the second coming while fighting guys like Tim Hague (who would probably beat him). But he’s not in “no matter what”.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
The only reason I said “probably” is because I don’t know what Kimbo’s been doing with his life for the last few months. I have to admit that there’s the remote possibility that he’s been working on his skills and is an improved fighter. But I honestly think he’s not going to be ready to hang with any of the UFC’s HW division. But that’s the great thing about the show – we’ll see one way or the other.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Im not suggesting Kimbo is gonna have this long illustrious UFC career. But the UFC arent gonna just market the shit outta him then let him go if he has even a spec of success on TUF. Why would they? The spin doctors at the UFC will be able to talk about how he is new to the sport, like Lesnar, and that he is training hard and EXC messed up by promoting him as the ‘ducks nuts’ whilst the UFC are treating him as they should be by matching him up with other B grade fighters. The fans will accept that. Whether they give him ppvs or UFNs I dont know, and sure, if he has 2 fights for 2 losses they’ll drop him, but I cant see them letting him go before he devalues himself in the cage.
That honestly sounds like pretty close to what will happen. They’ll give him a shot outside of the show regardless, but how he does on the show determines what kind of deal he’ll get, and how he does in those first couple of fights will determine whether he stays or becomes a blip. Some people (not necessarily here) are saying he’s going to get signed and pushed regardless because “Dana is just like the Shaws, etc. etc. etc.” I think I read that into what you were originally saying, which is quite different.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 4, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he’ll be pushed, but not pushed like Lesnar. I mean, he doesnt have the tools. But it’ll be a short term push that they can abandoned pretty quickly if he doesnt deliver………which you’d imagine will be the case. I tell u what though, if he notches up some big wins and makes it to a title shot against Lesnar or something……..I’ll…….I’ll……….well, I probably wont do anything, but it’d be some crazy shit!!! hehe
The TUF fighters they decide to keep and try to build up seem to always get slotted better on fight cards. So even if Kimbo doesn’t win a fight on the show and somehow makes it on UFC PPV as a first or second fight how we will know if he is just getting treated like all the other TUF fighters they decide to keep or whether he is getting special treatment because he can make them money?
So Clear
Kimbo Slice is polarizing. Love or hate what he brings to our beloved world of MMA but know one thing. The FIGHTERS are the ultimate winners of what he brings to the table, which is the more casual fan. These fans mean money. The guys who bleed for us and sacrifice their bodies reap the financial benefit of having a guy like Kimbo involved in MMA.
Isn’t that the best thing to come out of this?
Personally, I think Kimbo is being signed as a SpikeTV property, not a PPV property.
Kimbo has never demonstrated the ability to draw PAYING customers, but he sure as hell as demonstrated the ability to draw eyeballs to a free show (Youtube, CBS). I think Spike is looking at him as a guy who can help draw ratings to their UFN cards. I don’t think the UFC has any immediate plans to bring him on to PPV. They are going to give him the Leben treatment and let him main-card on a half dozen SpikeTV shows before the even think about moving him up to PPV.
by Steve4192 on Jun 4, 2009 6:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Im more critical of the UFC streamlining Lesnars shot to the title than this. I mean, I try to think of reasons why Dana wouldnt sign Kimbo to TUF and I really cant think of any. What did we expect him to do? Decline to put Kimbo on the show due to some high moral belief that the concept of marketable celebrity and UFC fighter are mutually exclusive? The ideal that the UFC is purely about the sport and the fighters ability was lost when Lesnar comes onto the scene and guys like Werdum are booted. Half the UFCs success is based on celebrity.
- Is Kimbo any worse than many TUF contestants? No.
- Is Kimbo gonna bring in a truckload of rating? Yes
- Is the backlash gonna be significant? No
- Do the positives outweigh the negatives? ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY!!!
A tv show designed to create hype signs a fighter dripping with hype. This decision was a no brainer and I can’t find a reason to offer any real praise or criticism to the UFC for doing this.
I don't agree with Arnold at all
I don’t think DW was hypocritcal in the least, allowing Kimbo to go on TUF.
For some time now, DW has said if Kimbo wants a shot at fighting in the UFC, he’d have to go on TUF, period.
Now, Kimbo has decided to take DW up on his offer — a bold move on his part, because it isn’t a free ride.
Now, we’ll see what Kimbo is made of. I personally wish him all the best. Whether he’ll perform or not, who knows?
As for DW being “all about the Benjamins”, and the bottom line governing the UFC, what else should govern it? Goodwill? Do you really think DW’s focus on profitability for the UFC is undue? Or bad for the sport?
A company run without constant, obsessive focus on its bottom line won’t be in business for very long.
You have heard DW say it countless times: he thinks MMA is going to be the biggest sport in the world, and he is doing everything in his power to make that prediction a reality. So, regarding Kimbo and DW’s focus on the bottom line: the more popular TUF becomes, the more money the show generates, the more MMA fans are born, and the more DW can pay the fighters we love to watch throw down.
Not only did he say Kimbo would have to go on TUF, but after UFC 90, he said he would make a season of heavyweights just so Kimbo could compete. I remember that pretty clearly. He followed through.
by Swordslasher on Jun 4, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's the thing
There’s space for guys like kaplan.. If kimbo does better than him, I don’t see why he shouldn’t be there..
WOW
I never expected so many people to stand behind this decision and justify it. If you are doing the right thing it shouldn’t take pages and pages of discussion and justification.
I am too broken hearted with so many people on here, whose opinion I had grown to respect, to address each of the issues with Kimbo Slice and Dana White. Here are my big peeves though.
I sure don’t see Slice’s charisma people talk about. He can hardly speak. He is not going to be a person I want to see on TV representing a sport I like. I like Peyton Manning and dislike Plaxico Burris and Ocho Cinco.
Dana definitely was mocking and degrading Slice by inviting him on TUF (in addition to the outright names he called him). That was real and out of love of MMA.
Kimbo coming on the show is business.
What other principles will be sacrificed for business (giving Kimbo a contract when he loses and loses). Stop sacrificing MMA for business. How much more hypocrisy will you all forgive DW in the name of business.
I don’t know the other writer. I only read BE and watch Fox Fight Game and MMA on Yahoo Sports. But, I’m drifting away from MMA as I read BE less and less with this craziness.
I don’t know why anyone would claim he is charismatic. He is a scary looking guy though so that a good start.
In my mind the only way this can go poorly is if he loses badly and then still gets signed. I doubt that would happen because I imagine Dana would be almost as happy to see him bomb as see him win.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
Relax dude
There are lots of worse fighters that have stepped in the house, I don’t see why this will make you like mma less now..
Plus, about the charisma thing,even if you don’t get it, doesn’t mean it’s not there.. I don’t get why miley Cyrus and the jonas brothers are famous but I can’t deny that they’re big and they do have appeal for others.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 4, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep drifting
Nothing is sacrificed by Kimbo decided to take Dan up on his offer. Nothing.
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 4, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Kimbo coming on the show is business.
What other principles will be sacrificed for business (giving Kimbo a contract when he loses and loses). Stop sacrificing MMA for business. How much more hypocrisy will you all forgive DW in the name of business.
Of course it’s business. What isn’t business? Signing a less than great fighter to sacrifice him to developing fighters is business, signing an up and coming fighter is business…etc. The UFC is a business with the goal of making as much money as possible. Just like any other sports organization.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 5, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Everyone needs to realize this.
If Zuffa didn’t care about business first, Zuffa wouldn’t exist, and where would MMA be then? Everyone acts like MMA is this super strong sport that could go on forever without them, but face the facts. Without Zuffa, MMA would not be close to as big as it is today.
People watching TUF is good for MMA. Kimbo will make more people watch TUF than in the past. What did the first TUF do to PPV sales and fighter salaries? What is the video game doing? This will do the same thing.
and the “sport aspect” will sort things out also. It’s business to let Kimbo compete on TUF. If he can win on the show he’ll have used the sport aspect to prove himself…it would be the very thing that TUF exists for. It would be compelling TV and a guy emerging as a real fighter. If he can’t hack it on TUF or on UFC cards and racks up losses…he’ll be gone.
Business dictates what fights to make, who to sign…etc. But the sporting aspects (i.e. results) dictate what happens from there.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 5, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope you’re right.
I hope the sport dictates the future…not business dictating the sport (ie Conseco and Sapp)
…also, I’ll get off my high horse, I was having a bad week and this just seemed morally offensable…although less so now…I just hope that Kimbo’s path is chosen by sport and not by business, and I don’t think he’s all that and a bag of donuts like a lot of people seem to
plus, where is his entourage gonna bunk at…I bet it’s tough filming around all those extra dudes
Well...
Japan (canseco/sapp) is a different animal. The sport is in such bad shape out there that business has to be created by any means necessary.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 5, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
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