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Can Strikeforce Create a Relevant Heavyweight Division?

Rogergracie_mediumAccording to Graciemag.com, Roger Gracie will make his Strikeforce debut on August 15th on the Carano vs. Cyborg card from the HP Pavilion in San Jose, California. Although the promotion has yet to determine an opponent for the 8-time Mundial and 2-time ADCC Brazilian jiu-jitsu champion, Strikeforce is quietly starting to build a deeper talent pool in the heavyweight division. With names like Alistair Overeem and Brett Rogers leading the weight class, we could be in for some fairly interesting matchups toward the end of the year and into 2010.

There is, however, one substantial problem that could slow down Strikeforce's traction in terms of creating a heavyweight division that has any type of relevance in the overall landscape of the sport. Scarcity of talent and the fact that the UFC and Affliction are swallowing up any heavyweights that have shown promise are the main sources of Strikeforce's shallow division. With the UFC pushing heavyweights in the newest season of The Ultimate Fighter reality series, potentially great heavyweights are a diamond in the rough.

The acquisition of Roger Gracie is definitely a step in the right direction. Roger Gracie is a second degree black belt under Carlos Gracie Junior. He's probably one of the most dynamic grapplers in the sport today, and he's definitely one of the best heavyweights in the BJJ scene that has converted to MMA. He won the 2005 ADCC Openweight and 88-98kg titles along with the 2007 ADCC Superfight Championship. He's also won the BJJ World Championships a record 8 times. He's fought to a 2-0 record in MMA with a win over Yuki Kondo at Sengoku II, and a win over Ron Waterman at BodogFIGHT: USA vs. Russia. Both wins ended via submission in the first round.

We can look over his impressive resume in the grappling circle and believe he will be a very solid MMA fighter, but the bigger problem here is that Strikeforce has a very shallow talent pool that really can't supply the top of the division with intriguing fights. Alistair Overeem vs. Brett Rogers is currently rumored to take place on August 15th, and the outcome of that fight will determine matchups down the road. The problem is that Strikeforce doesn't have any other compelling heavyweights to take on either fighter. In fact, the division could be summed up in Rogers, Overeem, and Gracie.

What can be done to bolster the division into something that Strikeforce can leverage for ratings in the future? I think signing Bobby Lashley is definitely something that could help the promotion, although I know he's aiming for the UFC. He would provide a little of what Brock Lesnar provides in terms of crossover fan drawing power, but he's obviously not as skilled or as popular as Lesnar.

Strikeforce needs to truly begin scouting worldwide talent heavily. They were able to sign a potential champion in Shane Del Rosario, who will hopefully fight in August, to a deal, so they have an eye for some of the up-and-coming talent in the sport. It'd be nice to see them work in some of the talent from Sengoku, although their own heavyweight division doesn't offer much in terms of interesting matchups. Antonio Silva can't even fight in the States.

Strikeforce could also play the waiting game with the UFC and Affliction. If Affliction manages to sink after their third event, a plethora of top heavyweights would be available for Strikeforce to plunder. There is also some value in grabbing up some of the more exposed fighters from The Ultimate Fighter if they happen to perform badly in their debut fights in the Octagon, specifically some of the former NFL talent. While these aren't surefire ways to create huge matchups for their top talent, it will allow them to build a division from the ground up with guys that at least are known to the casual fan.

Right now, I'm a bit skeptical if Strikeforce can truly create any type of relevance to their heavyweight division. Rogers vs. Overeem is relevant within the top ten rankings at heavyweight, but I don't forsee the promotion being able to land another huge heavyweight without some sort of collapse of Affliction or some of the DREAM heavyweights being signed. With DREAM potentially losing its TV deal and Sengoku becoming the more dominant promotion in Japan, that's always a possibility as well. In any case, Strikeforce needs to create some depth to the division.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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I agree that they’re best bet is definitely the castoffs from TUF and if/when Affliction keels over.

That said, why didn’t you mention Arlovski or Tim Sylvia? Both are higher-up fighters with some name value and probably a comparatively small asking price.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 29, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wasn’t Andrei dropped by Strikeforce? Or at least they stated they wouldn’t use him?

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought that was Affliction, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Strikeforce wasn’t feeling him either.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 29, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was affliction

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jun 29, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was Affliction, he will be fighting for Strikeforce again, most likely, due to being dropped from Affliction.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strikeforce seems to be steering clear of signing UFC cast-offs. I guess it appears they do not want to come off as a B-level promotion.

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that’s sarcasm, you win the internet.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's not sarcasm

I was saying that they have reached out to any guys released from UFC. My guess is if they were to do that, they probably feel it would weaken their brand. If that is the case, I do not blame them

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was saying that they have RARELY reached out to any guys released from UFC. My guess is if they were to do that, they probably feel it would weaken their brand. If that is the case, I do not blame them

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They pretty much reach out to every guy who has been cut by the UFC.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

They recently picked up Werdum and Jorge Gurgel. Strikeforce has never been shy of signing guys that got cut out of the UFC, why would they?

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would anyone? UFC signed Silva after he was let go from PRIDE, Kimbo after being let go of Pro Elite, etc. It’s all business.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Something we can both agree on.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kimbo, is a star, Silva had a higher ceiling at the time. What about increasing the thin roster with veterans such as Jason McDonald or Rich Clementi?

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You do know that 8 of the 10 guys on the Strikeforce: Lawler vs. Shields main card were guys who used to fight for the UFC right?

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea, but how long ago was that? Im talking about recently. You could say Jorge Gurgel failure in the UFC was choice of questionable game planning instead of being overmatched against the level of talent in UFC.

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why would they not sign guys who have drawing value just because they aren’t in the UFC anymore? The UFC cuts guys darn near every month but it doesn’t mean those guys are scrubs with no career value left it just means they lost a couple of fights. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Tim Boetsch or Frank Lester end up in Strikeforce in the near future.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not saying they would but, I guess what I am saying is they would more likely pick up guys with a higher ceiling. Let’s say if Jon Jones or Anthony Johnson goes on a two fight losing streak and the UFC decides to cut him after that, it’s not that he is a scrub, but it’s due to inexperience. I believe Strikeforce would definitely bring him on the roster because he has tons of potential. And, if Mac Danzig lost his next fight and ends up getting cut, he probably will end up on Strikeforce due to being a winner on TUF

Now, when guys like Jason MacDonald or Rich Clementi got released, I was sure Coker would be interested in them because their roster is still thin. But, it turned out not to be the case.

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Strikeforce still has to be very smart about who they do and don’t sign, just like the UFC they don’t have infinite roster space and they definatly have to be smart with their contract money. They sign guys to fill a need in their roster. That’s not to say MacDonald or Clementi might not end up in Strikeforce eventually it’s just that they have to make a cost vs need analysis before they sign a fighter and those two guys might not be needed or might cost more than Strikeforce wants to pay to fill that need currently.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was their last major event and it was only two or three weeks ago.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I meant they fought in UFC 2-3 years ago

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aww, who me remembered my FanPost!

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I knew that dumb statement sounded familiar.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You say ‘dumb’, I say ‘100% accurate’ – 80% of their main card was made up of former UFC fighters.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

80% is funny when the number when it is out of 5.

I bet those fighters fought in other promotions too, like PRIDE.

Amazing, huh?
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

80% is funny when the number when it is out of 5.

Four out of five is funny? How about eight out of the ten fighters in the five fights, you dolt?

Wow, you really are that stupid, aren’t you? I always gave you the benefit of the doubt, too.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hahaha…just making fun of your statistical data.

You could have said 4 out of 5 fights instead of 80%…LOL.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Point was your point was pointless.
Doesn’t mean that 8/10 fighters were UFC washouts.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only one they wanted to keep was Arlovski.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m sure they don’t have any use for the likes of Nick Diaz or Robbie Lawler in the UFC, huh? =)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

P.S. Quoting Joe Rogan:
Nick Diaz is probably one of the top 10 p4p in the world

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joe also thinks we should all be allowed to work stoned. Doesn’t make it true.

Yes I would love for Diaz to be in the UFC. While I am a Lawler fan, I think he would get swallowed up in the UFC.

by Riney on Jun 29, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, you don’t even believe that. My friends all cracked up when Rogan said that.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats the point. Its all funny in the UFC, LOL.

See Dana’s Cro Cop and Vitor comments as reference.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Recent comments, I may add.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

80% is funny when the number when it is out of 5.

What?????????

by who me on Jun 30, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Roger's not ready for Fabricio Werdum

but that would be an intriguing match. Gracie was widely believed to be ducking opponents in Sengoku, I wonder if Strikeforce will be willing to give him some squash matches?

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jun 29, 2009 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I guess it would depend on your definition of relevant.

I foresee Strikeforce’s heavyweight division keeping on the same path it is now. An occasional fight with serious ranking implications, and a lot of fights between solid prospects, UFC rejects, and any talent not signed to Zuffa.

For the most part, the best heavyweights will be on the UFC roster. That’s where the money is going to be.

by Andy R on Jun 29, 2009 11:03 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

/\

this

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jun 29, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure I forsee them on that path at all. Signing Roger Gracie to at least a bout and having Shane Del Rosario in the wings is indicative of the promotion trying to build something up. The only problem is that… the UFC will always be looming above to pick up those fighters if they get some big wins.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Especially Roger if he starts a) fighting regularly and b) winning. Which I really really hope to see. Watching him in grappling tournaments is awesome but would like to see him in something with more coverage.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jun 29, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m just hoping SF doesn’t make the big mistake of doing Rosario vs. Gracie for August. Both guys are great fighters, but Rosario has some punishing clinchwork and standup. I mean, the guy KO’d a guy with a body shot in the clinch against the ropes. They should try to build both guys up.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For sure, Strikeforce is definitely signing quality prospects and and making interesting bouts. But I think you sum up the problem nicely — it’ll be difficult for Strikeforce to build up a division when the UFC is likely going to poach many of Strikforce’s top fighters.

It’s a lot harder to build up the heavyweight division anyway, given the relative dearth of talent.

by Andy R on Jun 29, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see the disagreement

Andy R is saying Strikeforce will feature a mix of up and comers — like Roger and Del Rosario, UFC rejects — Werdum, and free floating talent.
You’re agreeing.
Strikeforce recognizes that if they build a fighter up enough there’s a strong chance the UFC will outbid them for him. They can deal.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jun 29, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

And if any of their top contenders or champions gets really, really good, they can be Zuffa bound – and Strikeforce will likely send them off with flowers and candy, as they understand you have a much better chance of surviving as an MMA organization if you don’t fuck with Zuffa’s personnel goals.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose I was agreeing after re-reading it. I got the notion that he meant that the division would basically just put on prospect fights and only ever having a few fights with rankings implications without actually pitting prospects into the big time. But, now I see that isn’t what he was saying, so yes… I generally agree.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Werdum is a UFC Reject?

LOL! Really, is that what people are labeling him as? Its pretty stupid to put labels like that on fighters, IMO.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

probably unfair

but its true , the UFC rejected him therefore he is a UFC reject.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jun 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The UFC and him failed to come to an agreement after dropping his purse by half.
It is as dumb as calling Arlovski a UFC Reject or Anderson Silva a PRIDE reject.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, because Dana publically stated that he wanted to keep Andrei. Werdum is different – he bitched about Randy picking Brock for his comeback fight and got knocked the fuck out by a rookie.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not different, you are just talking about different things.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the fact that Strikeforce and Affliction have proven willing to work together in the past suggests that it’s more likely than not that we’ll see Fedor in the Strikeforce cage, likely in a fight against their World Champion.

Furthermore, Fabricio Werdum remains signed and under-utilized, but would likely be favored in a fight against either Bret Rogers or Alistair Overeem. That makes another credible contender.

The other Affliction heavyweights, such as Barnett, Yvel, Buentello, and Rothwell could also be utilized by Strikeforce to fill out their heavyweight division. Roger Gracie seems more like a long-term prospect, a fighter whose name assures a degree of marketability, and who, if handled correctly, could be a draw for the company.

I think they’ll do just fine.

by madiq on Jun 29, 2009 12:01 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Werdum… I forgot about his signing. I think Rothwell is a possibility as well. If Affliction goes under, there is a huge possibility for them to become relevant, although the price tag would be hefty.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeff Monson is still out there too. While Monson is not a top ten Heavyweight, he is still a very solid fighter and a good test for anyone.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 29, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They have talked a lot about working together but all we have actually seen is Affliction paying Arlovski to fight on a Strikeforce card. Even if Affliction wanted to share, can Strikeforce afford to pay the asking price for the big names? One thing that may help Strikeforce is Affliction fighters who have had their value greatly reduced recently, they couldn’t afford Arlovski before but perhaps they can now, Tim Sylvia is bound to get hungry soon, Pedro Rizzo is obviously faded from his glory days but he may still be able to help develop younger talent, Ben Rothwell may have sat long enough to come down on asking price and M-1 may share some young Russians in exchange for some promotion and a ring banner.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

M-1 co-promotion is a good idea. They have some young heavyweights within the promotion that would be add to the depth chart. I think that’s a possibility for sure.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldnt reccomend doing business with M-1

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt we’ll ever see Fedor in a cage, no matter who the promoter is. I don’t think he has any desire to be a ‘cage fighter’.

Also, Strikeforce has historically run a pretty tight fiscal ship. They have never been an organization to pay outrageous purses unless a fighter is a proven draw for them (Frank Shamrock). Unlike Tom Attencio, Scott Coker does not allow his inner fanboy to run wild with his checkbook. I suspect that Coker’s cost-benefit analysis on meeting Fedor’s asking price will come out in favor of shaking his hand, wishing him well in his future endeavors, and letting him walk out the door.

by Steve4192 on Jun 29, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Roger Gracie

was a relatively slow, grip-fighting guard puller compared to the other top open-division guys in the BJJ scene. Don’t get me wrong, he’s got a SICK guard, but he was beat several times by Xande Ribiero and was always having a hard time with Jacare (who’s now fighting at middleweight, I believe).

I personally feel Roger should continue taking smaller matches until he proves he can hang with the heavy-handed brawlers who refuse to be taken down easily. Of course, if he starts winning like a madman, I’ll be wearing my gracie barra gi in public and acting like I believed all along.

by judonerd on Jun 29, 2009 12:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Xande is definitely better, but at heavyweight in MMA, Roger is a different breed compared to some of the other heavyweights in the game. He isn’t a Fedor beater by any means, but he can definitely give heavies a run for their money with some training.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what about guys like Kharitonov, Dave Herman, Travis Wuiff, Daniel Puder(who i think is already under contract for them) Lavar Johnson? Granted those guys are world beaters, but a couple of them are up and comers. I don’t think that StrikeForce is going to be able to compete with affliction or UFC monetarily, so why not sign guys who are up and coming in hopes of grooming them into champions

by Fedorable on Jun 29, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Herman is fighting with Bellator, although I’m not sure what the deal is there. Puder is in there, I believe. Lavar Johnson… didn’t he get onto TUF or no? Kharitonov and Wiuff are options as well, but the Japanese scene is undecided right now. Sengoku has Wiuff so the possibility of him in SF isn’t a bad one, but Kharitonov is with DREAM. We’ll see what happens with DREAM, if they die off or can’t afford all those heavies.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think Lavar Johnson is on TUF, which is a shame. Rex Richards didn’t make the show either due to injury, he may end up available once he’s healthy.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Zuffa was apparently very on Richards.

I suspect well see him on a UFC undercard as soon as he heals up.

by Steve4192 on Jun 29, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

very high on Richards. Doh!

by Steve4192 on Jun 29, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wiuff is also fighting in North America for IFC; he’d have to give up at least one of those contracts to sign with SF.

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Jun 30, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Affliction is working with Strikeforce, why would they need to compete with them?

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think for Strikeforce the goal should be exciting instead of relevant because relevant would be very hard to do and overly expensive. If they concentrate on the match ups instead of depth they can get the attention now without having to have a huge division.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Huh? What's Wrong With the Strikeforce HWs Again?

I think they already have a good group of HW’s they can build on.

Heavyweight:
Alistair Overeem [CHAMP]
Fabricio Werdum
Paul Buentello
Brett Rogers
Roger Gracie
Dave Herman
Shane Del Rosario
Levar “Big” Johnson
Abongo Humphrey
Jon Murphy
Carl Seumanutafa

Possibly Fighting For Strikeforce Soon:
Andrei Arlovski
Tim Sylvia

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I believe Daniel Puder is w/t Strikeforce, as well.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will add that they built up their HW division from nothing to this in the spand of half a year, which is pretty remarkable.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is confusing as shit. Buentello is on the Affliction wagon, but he’s also with Strikeforce, correct? If so, I failed to find that information.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like great fights being made, but jesus, the open contracts are stupid. A fighter can basically pocket veto a contract and not agree to another fight on it. The contracts are very weak.

by szucconi on Jun 29, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, it’s hard to determine who has those contracts in which they can fight for both Affliction and Strikeforce. I was aware of the Sengoku-Strikeforce alliance, but I’m not sure if Affliction is going to continue letting SF borrow.

I’m assuming Buentello is a loan to Affliction then.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But open to any degree is open. None of them are truly “open”, but they are as restrictive as they feel they need to be on a case by case basis. They may as well close the model and require approval to fight elsewhere. Or just one fight deals. When a guy is signed to a multi fight deal with an org that has a show every 6-8 months, he wants the option to fight between that, its understandable.

by szucconi on Jun 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With Strikeforce being contractually obligated to do a specific amount of shows a year for Showtime it’s quite probably that their contracts will get get more restrictive (and longer) as time goes by.

The whole open vs closed contract debate is a bit of a mystery, just because the UFC uses exclusive contracts doesn’t mean UFC guys can’t fight outside of the UFC it just means that the UFC controls where the fighter fights. If the UFC wanted to cut a deal with say Dream to send a fighter over to Japan then that would be something the UFC could still do as a co-promotion, it’s just that the fighter can’t do that on their own. A truely open contract means the fighter gets to chose when and where and those seem to be a real rarity in the sport now.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A truly open contract is pretty much worthless. The fighter and the promoter can let one another swing in the wind until the bout agreement happens. There are degrees of open and promoters would be dumb to leave it totally open. Fighters would be dumb to sign long term deals with no guaranteed money. A rising star would be dumb to sign to long of a deal. Some degree of openness makes it more balanced, but with total openness the contract has no teeth and is only a contract and really nothing beyond that.

by szucconi on Jun 29, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure where Supremacy gets this stuff sometimes. Paul Buentello hasn’t fought in Strikeforce since the Overeem fight in 2007. Just because the contracts are “open” doesn’t mean the guys are completly free to do what they want nor does it mean that they actually are fighting anywhere else or even signed anywhere else. That said Paul Buentello is a better fit in Strikeforce than Affliction anyway, it would make sense for him to go back there.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Neither has Overeem.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One has announced that he is returning to Strikeforce, the other hasn’t.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was trying to be nice. Are you ready for this?

Buentello has one fight each remaining on his contracts for both Affliction and Strikeforce, but neither organization has yet nailed down a bout for him.

Before he was announced to take on Tim Sylvia for Affliction 3.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So he’s got a left over fight from a two year old contract that there has been no word at all of him filling? Shame we don’t have a roll eyes smiley around here.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is still a Strikeforce HW fighter.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He’s got one fight left that hasn’t been fufilled on a two year old contract, the thing may or may not even be valid for much longer and he’s not fighting for them anytime in the known future.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s the same as Overeem.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overeem recently came back to sign with them.

by who me on Jun 30, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He signed what with them, exactly? Do you have any news on Overeem signing a new deal, if so, how many fights is this new deal?
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 30, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Coker and Buentello both have said Buentello will fight for them soon. After Affliction 3, is what I have heard.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, pretty much every Affliction fighter will need a job after Affliction 3, so that works.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha…we shall see.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Herman chose Bellator over Strikeforce

after EliteXC collapsed.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on Jun 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, but I believe he may have still been an asset, like Eddie Alvarez, Wilson Reis, etc taken by Strikeforce.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is that nobody knows. It’s a bit ridiculous. And I think Bellator is going to try a HW class as well next season.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is, that Showtime and Pro Elite, required that all fighters that were featured on Showtime and CBS, to be picked up by Strikeforce, so that drove who SF picked up on the asset purchase. It is also Showtime that made Arlovski fight on Strikeforce and Affliction since he was featured on CBS, it is very complex but it is the nature of two promotions working with a network.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With non-transferable service contracts? I think they only transfer based on the fighters approval. The names mentioned opted out. Right?

by szucconi on Jun 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have posted here before, I have quotes from Wilson Reis and Eddie Alvarez saying they looked forward in competing in Strikeforce later on this year.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So Alvarez is good for Strikeforce but not Dream?

by Tonley on Jun 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alvarez is good for Strikeforce, DREAM, and Bellator, but he is somehow exclusive to Bellator since he became champ. Due to his manager, Monte Cox, Eddie Alvarez is all tangled in 3 contracts, at the moment.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW,

Alvarez only as 1 more fight left in DREAM.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alvarez is good for Strikeforce, DREAM, and Bellator, but he is somehow exclusive to Bellator since he became champ.

How does that make any kind of sense? Isn’t one of the reasons Eddie hasn’t signed with the UFC because he doesn’t like the exclusivity of the contract?

by Tonley on Jun 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn’t which really baffled me. Monte Cox made another statement shortly after and said that Eddie would fight outside of Bellator again when it made sense and with Bellator’s approval. I have no idea what that means. We will see.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is what I mean, he could quit servicing a contract because it depends on a bout agreement. He can pick from one of three at a time making two contract (for a certain amount of time) not mater. Its a mess and leaves the promotion us shits creek.

by szucconi on Jun 29, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but this is not the norm. Monte Cox tangled him in this mess signing with 4 promotions: Montes, Bellator, Dream, and EliteXC.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The EliteXC one, Strikeforce picked up.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dave Herman also fought in Sengoku as well, so, its not absolutely clear.
He was supposed to fight Eddie Sanchez on the last Bellator card and the fight was scrapped.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

HELL NO ON TIM SYLVIA

No way Scott Coker will do that, he embarrased the sport

by The Bronzeville Bully on Jun 29, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sylvia vs Werdum rumored for August 15 card.
One of Timmy’s friends posted that here on BE, but, who knows.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he is still a formidable opponent in MMA because of his size alone, but his stand-up defense is obviously a question.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely. Really good tests for Rogers and others coming up.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Herman is with Bellator isn’t he?

by Steve4192 on Jun 29, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, he is. Although, he has fought once for them and we don’t know if he is exclusively with them or how many fights he has left. Both Bellator and Sengoku have HW GP’s next year. Herman was also speculated to have been picked up by Strikeforce in the asset purchase, like SF did with Alvarez and Reis, who also currently fight for Bellator.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So…

Alistair Overeem [CHAMP] – Strikeforce
Fabricio Werdum – Strikeforce
Paul Buentello – Affliction, but on loan from Strikeforce?
Brett Rogers – Strikeforce
Roger Gracie – Strikeforce
Dave Herman – Bellator, but is he on loan? Strikeforce?
Shane Del Rosario – Strikeforce
Levar "Big" Johnson – Strikeforce
Abongo Humphrey – Strikeforce
Jon Murphy – Strikeforce
Carl Seumanutafa – Strikeforce

There is still a disparity in talent from the top and bottom, but it isn’t a bad start. To be perfectly honest, AA and Sylvia would at least add something to the division.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shane Del Rosario Strikeforce on loan to M-1.

Just like Galvao is signed to Strikeforce but is currently being loaned to DREAM for their WW GP.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am pretty sure you will see Timmy and Arlovski in Strikeforce soon.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paul Buentello- Still has one fight left on his 2 year old Strikeforce contract. Separate contract with Affliction (which is also almost over).

Dave Herman is definatly signed to Bellator, there is the off chance that his old EliteXC contract also transfered to Strikeforce but that would make you wonder how he was able to sign with Bellator and WVR when so many other guys stuck in EliteXC limbo weren’t able to do squat.

by who me on Jun 29, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eddie Alvarez, Shande Del Rosario, Scott Smith, Wilson Reis, etc, all fought for other promotions while the EliteXC limbo was going on.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Scott Smith had to have special clearance from ProElite to fight on the Strikeforce card. Wilson Reis didn’t fight between Sept 2008 and April 2009, Shane del Rosario didn’t fight between September 2008 and April 2009 and Eddie Alvarez has so many contracts who knows which one was the primary one at that time.

by who me on Jun 30, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pee Wee is in Bellator

What the fuck is a "robster craw"?

by Gunslinger20 on Jun 29, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Relevant meaning a division that will have some sort of bigger impact on the top ten… right now the UFC dominates it.

Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

by Leland Roling on Jun 29, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You mean Affliction doesnt have an impact, considering they have the best HW in the world, and will take on the current #2?

=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No. They don't.

That’s the point of this whole thread thingy.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hahaha…says Subo.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In that case,

No. The only way these rosters look like anything other than dogshit is if you combine them into one grand non-UFC HW bracket. Everyone is obsessed with Overeem, who is 2-1-1 at HW. In other words, he’s got a worse record in the division than Brock Lesnar, and against worse competition. Buentello was in the UFC and couldn’t hack it, ditto for Werdum. Rogers is still a fairly unknown quantity (knocking out Arlovski ain’t what it used to be), I’ve lost all faith in Herman and the rest of these guys are prospects that the UFC would get crushed for signing amidst accusations of ‘rushing’ fighters.

Strikeforce will serve its purpose as a feeder league that provides scrappy veterans that aren’t UFC belt material to earn money, put on good shows and provide good challenges to up and coming fighters. The prospects get pre-Big League seasoning, the Joe Riggs of the world get paid, and everyone gets to see more quality MMA.

But as soon as these guys get to the point where they’re top ten potential, Zuffa will commence bidding on them, and if Strikeforce values it’s future, then it will be proud to see their guys/champs promoted.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buentello was in the UFC and couldn’t hack it

Subo, you crack me up. Buentello was 3-1 in the UFC.
His only lost was to Arlovski.

Werdum was pissed that he was ignored for the mini UFC HW GP.
Killed Gonzaga and beat Vera, was considered the #1 HW contender before the Santos screw up.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He whined about not getting a title shot and then got knocked the fuck out by a rookie. Add those two together and you get a pink slip.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
Buentello was in the UFC and couldn’t hack it

Subo, you crack me up. Buentello was 3-1 in the UFC.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Wins against Justin Eliers, Kevin Jordan and Gilbert Alanda, loss to Arlovski by first round KO. Helluva run.

Then, he decides ‘fuck trying to win the belt and better myself, nah, I’d rather headline against Tank Abbott.’

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Blame the horrible UFC HW division, not Buentello.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hah! Like he left because Tank was a harder fight. You crack me up.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Better pay day my friend.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If that’s what matters most to you as a fighter, you’re probably not going to make it in the UFC.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Back then, it mattered since they were getting paid nothing.

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay...

so, if that’s the truth, then what the fuck is the point of being in the UFC?

It’s cool that you like UFC alot (I do too, it’s obviously the best product out there right now), but think about it from a fighter’s perspective- MMA (and fight sports in general) are all about momentum, and a profession is all about making money. Now, if you’re getting offered more money to fight easier competition, then you’re building career momentum, and making money.

I know that to a hardcore fan, that may seem like a cop- out, but I can see why they do it. That’s why I don’t blame Fedor for staying in Affliction; not to say that he’s not fighting great competition (because he is), but he’s getting paid a ton of money on his own terms.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Jun 29, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

I understand that MMASup is all about MMA in general (which tends to mean orgs like Strikeforce, Affliction, Dream, WVR, Bellator, etc), and that you’re mainly just interested in UFC, but c’mon- there’s no way that you don’t understand that some very serious talent plies their trade outside of Zuffa’s banner.

And it’s pretty low of you to just shit on any fighter that isn’t in the UFC.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture FTMFW.

'09 is the year of the FW's.

by ElliotMatheny on Jun 29, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s kinda his thing.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fedor is the greatest heavyweight in the history of mixed martial arts.

Jake Shields at #4 doesn’t bother me.

The UFC is where fighters go when they’re interested in being the best in the world at their weight, and those are the guys I’m interested in seeing.

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to make it clear, the guys aren’t good unless they are in the UFC. If they haven’t been in the UFC, they are not proven, and if they were in the UFC, they are UFC rejects. Is this interpretation correct? =)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What part of ‘Fedor is the greatest heavyweight in the history of mixed martial arts’ don’t you understand?

by subo on Jun 29, 2009 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a partial joke.
=)

by MMASuPreMaCy on Jun 29, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The UFC is where fighters go when they’re interested in being the best in the world at their weight…


Except for at heavyweight. That UFC division is more about Hype than fighting against the best.

by madiq on Jun 30, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, it’s now the deepest HW division in the sport. After Barnett loses, the UFC will have four of the top five HW’s in the world and more than half of the top ten.

by subo on Jun 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because Barnett losing to Fedor should drop him below the losers of Lesnar-Mir and Nogueira-Couture?

If Lesnar loses, he should drop out of the Top 5, period. And since Barnett has beaten both Big Nog and Couture, I don’t quite see the logic in ranking him below the lesser of these arguably past their prime former legends.

As for the whole “deepest Heavyweight division in the sport” thing, while I can certainly respect their prospects, it’s hard to fully validate their credibility when they’re being protected. Maybe Shane Carwin, Cain Velasquez, and Junior Dos Santos are better than Tim Sylvia, Andrei Arlovski, Fabricio Werdum, and Monson, or maybe they receive the benefit of more favorable matchmaking, as well as the Zuffa promotional structure. I’ll say this: It wasn’t too long ago that Mir was getting pwned by Brandon Vera, and Nogueira was getting nearly stopped by Heath Herring of all people.

I’m not completely challenging your point; I’m just saying that since we know who the consensus #1 guy is in the division, if you’re truly interested in being “the best in the world” in that weight class, you should be (at the moment) fighting for Affliction.

by madiq on Jun 30, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Barnett hasn’t beaten a top ten opponent in almost three years, so if he loses to the first guy in that echelon that he faces, then yes, he should be dropped. Velasquez has a win over Kongo, and Carwin over Gonzaga – are those somehow not good enough? They sure look more impressive than Tim Sylvia or Andrei Arlovski at this point in time – both have lost two straight fights, and the most recent of the two to people ranked waaaaaay below them.

And Junior Dos Santos actually did knock out one of the guys you mention (Werdum).

In a year’s time, this won’t even be a debate, but I’ve been ahead of the curve on this and I’ll remain there – all the important future heavyweight pieces (with a few exceptions) are or will soon be with Zuffa. All of Fedor’s future opponents, to put it another way.

by subo on Jun 30, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except Fedor isn’t “the first guy in that echelon” (which presumably included Sylvia, Arlovski, and Randy six months ago); he’s on a totally different echelon, in that he has been outclassing even hall-of-fame caliber opponents like Nogueira for years.

Also, Cheick Kongo and Gabriel Gonzaga, if they weren’t in the UFC, would be derided as fighters on par with the Ben Rothwells, Jeff Monsons, and Paul Buentellos who circulate the MMA heavyweight periphery, so if Velasquez and Carwin’s wins over their first real tests in Kongo and Gonzaga justify their spots in the Top 10, then Barnett’s wins over Monson, Rizzo, and Yvel should count as much or more, given the rest of his resume.

Furthermore, isn’t it bootstrapping to say that Carwin and Lesnar’s wins are more legitimate than Bret Rogers’ over Arlovski? Both Couture and Gonzaga lost to previously unranked heavyweights, and somehow maintained their credibility. (As for Sylvia losing to Mercer, well, he probably isn’t going to recover from that.)

As for Junior Dos Santos, we don’t yet know if he’s the next big thing or the next Gabriel Gonzaga, but the win over Werdum justifies his spot in the Top 10. However, in a division filled with prospects and gatekeepers, there’s a limited hierarchy of fighters with extensive resumes in the UFC to test his skills against, and as such, your analysis (as well as that of most fans) will be heavily slanted in favor of the UFC Hype Machine, which simultaneously touts Brock Lesnar as the Next Fedor while simultaneously undercutting the credibility of the Real Fedor.

And if in a year’s time, Fedor is fighting in the UFC, I’ll tip my hat your way. But in the here and now, there’s still credibility elsewhere.

by madiq on Jul 1, 2009 1:56 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I hope we’re at least both rooting for Fedor to come to the UFC – while both acknowledging that he doesn’t have to.

by subo on Jul 1, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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