Snapshot of the Day: Ref Watches Gilbert Yvel Batter Prone and Helpless Pedro Rizzo at Ultimate Chaos
by Kid Nate on Jun 27, 2009 11:57 PM EDT
in News
96 comments
This would be an excellent prop for anyone planning to teach classes on reffing MMA fights: what not to do. If the guy is flat on his back with his arms down, stop the other guy from hitting him anymore.
This is also an excellent reason for fighters not to participate in fights in states without sanctioning bodies.
I'm glad Pedro Rizzo walked out of the cage on his own power. Let's hope he doesn't suffer any ill effects from this unnecessary damage.
Photo, Video via Sherdog.com
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Man
That was brutal…and a horrible stoppage.
http://www.mmaforreal.com
by Kelvin Hunt on Jun 28, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow
Look at the refs face, he is staring right at him too…those were some serious bombs.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Jun 28, 2009 12:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looked like a bar fight, like there wasn’t even a ref in the ring. I counted five extra shots, and the last two looked like Yvel was dribbling a basketball.
Good point on non-sanctioning states. Sadly, I don’t think many fighters will heed the warning.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Jun 28, 2009 12:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There might have been five punches on the ground, but the first one didn’t put him out…he took two, maybe three post-KO. That isn’t going to kill him, and when dealing with professional fighters who are experienced and have a lot on the line, I’d rather see two extra punches than a premature stoppage.
The ULTIMATE ultimate proving ground.
by Dodectagon on Jun 28, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather see premature stoppages than unnecessary damage.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 28, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really want to see a good scientific analysis of “perfunctory post-KO punches”. I think it’s necessary before this conversation can move further.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 28, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
brent brockhouse (sorry if I spelled it wrong)
did a really good article on this a while back
by proflex on Jun 28, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Concussions are a very murky area of medical study. There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of consensus about them, partially because the brain is such a weird piece of tissue. And the study that Brent cites in his article was only talking about KO’s, not any punches that come afterward. Brent brings up the available info, but I’m saying we need more info.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 28, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I mean, I have my strong feelings on the situation. But most of the discussion revolves around studies that can’t tell the whole picture. I think it would be really interesting if we could get brain scans of fighters like 2 hours before events and then 2 hours after. Comparing guys who took x amount of head trauma, punches after being KO’ed…etc. But this will never happen and even if it did we’d need data from hundreds of shows to really have the required data.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 28, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your position and it’s valid given the information we have at our disposal presently. That said I have a couple points in for those of your general persuasion (the first doesn’t really have to do with you):
- There is a whole lot on the line for these guys. The difference between winning and losing is somebody’s career. Therefore, if you ever find yourself saying some cute, one sentence quip about how you care about safety, you really need to think a little harder. And iiowyn, I’m not referencing your point above either, because I’ve seen you discuss this point at length at other times. I know you don’t think of it in a trite manner.
- Insofar as we are willing to suffer KO’s in the first place, which are brutal and have been medically proven to potentially cause permanent mental harm to folk, it seems that there is some inherent tension in your position.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 28, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a really weird argument to have...
basically saying “how much brain trauma is too much brain trauma” and it makes it clear why so many doctors don’t like the sport because their answer would clearly be “any unnecessary brain trauma is too much.”
And a lot of the reason I started training is so that I could get a better grip on the mental aspect of fighters and yeah, I’ve been rocked and flash KO’ed in training and in those moments all I want to do is keep going regardless of my health. The thing is, we can’t leave it up to the fighters to say how much is too much because of the high level of financial and career impact from a loss.
It’s a really difficult conversation to have…
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 28, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a really difficult conversation to have…
I couldn’t agree more. That’s part of the reason I’m glad that there’s a place like BE where every conversation doesn’t eventually devolve into the same UFC/non-UFC crap (well, it usually does, but at least the half-life of discussions seem greater here :D).
The other parts are, in no particular order: high level of discourse of the editors’ articles, interesting fan driven research, up to the second news coverage, involved and intelligent community, coverage for non-UFC events, and last, but most assuredly not least, the liveblogs. BE NIGHT CREW, ASSEMBLE!
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 28, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. A picture really is worth a thousand words in this case.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on Jun 28, 2009 12:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention
I don’t understand why ANY fighter would be willing to step into a ring with Yvel after the dirty stuff he’s done in his career. I think the guy should be banned from fighting at all. Rizzo is lucky that Yvel didn’t KO the ref and keep beating him after the ref finally decided to stop the fight.
by Cliff Speed on Jun 28, 2009 12:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yvel didnt act inappropriately during the fight at all.
by Yasnian on Jun 28, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fight in which Yvel struck a ref was very shady all around.
by capital L on Jun 28, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well Yvel hasn't been an ass in a while
Plus it’s not like he’s got Aids like Tommy Morrison
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 28, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s a real feather in his cap: he doesn’t have AIDS.
by An Old Friend on Jun 28, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The ref Yvel struck was also the manager for the fighter he was fighting.
It was shadier than a god damned forest in Autumn.
by DirtyML on Jun 28, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fight is already on Youtube.com
by Nick Thomas on Jun 28, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
But I guess it sounds better than supine
by soadtrails on Jun 28, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. In common usage it means horizontal, not necessarily face down. If you’re a time traveler from the 19th century it only means “face down.”
Note that the OED recognizes this fact:
“In strict use opposed to supine. In later use freq. more generally with reference to lying horizontal, or on the ground, without specific implication as to bodily posture.”
Also, check dictionary.com.
Do people even take the simple step of googling something before calling someone out? Note: the fact that you know the definition of a word (or think you do) doesn’t make you intelligent or superior to other posters. That goes for me too. I just hate this kind of pseudo intellectual junk.
by cmsove on Jun 28, 2009 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That goes for me too.
apparently not : )
by ronniebonnie on Jun 28, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thank you
sadly supine has fallen from common usage. I considered using it, but then had a vision of someone in the comments going “why are you calling Pedro Rizzo a pig?”
thanks all for pleasantly surprising me with a very high level of vocabulary.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 28, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My two cents
Common usage doesn’t make it right…if a million idiots use a the wrong word to describe something, all the sudden it’s acceptable to use the wrong word, because the majority are too lazy to correct themselves?
I’m not arguing the prone/supine thing…supine is proper, but prone is also a shooting position from the stomach and I figured there were multiple usages for the word outside of shooting.
Main point being…‘popular usage’ is a weak position to argue from…words like ‘clever’ (originally describing intelligent, trainable livestock) and sayings like ‘chomping at the bit’ (as opposed to champing at the bit, which is correct) are in our vocabulary because of popular usage, not because they’re correct or even right.
by Dabashire on Jun 28, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if a million idiots use a the wrong word to describe something, all the sudden it’s acceptable to use the wrong word, because the majority are too lazy to correct themselves?
Yes?
Because that’s how languages evolve. If it wasn’t, the whole world would still be grunting the same language.
by mythbuster on Jun 28, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly, the only reason language exist is for people to communicate, if everyone is using a word or a phrase in a specific manner then it is now the accepted manner because that’s how it is understood. Even if a million text books have it differently common accepted meaning is the only thing that actually matters.
by who me on Jun 28, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES!
This is exactly what an English teacher once told me. The purpose of any language is communication.
by mythbuster on Jun 28, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this is the sort of
thing that is bad for MMA in general, this is going to hit mainstream news and will only fuel the fire for those who have no idea and want to see this sport banned.
by proflex on Jun 28, 2009 12:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
this is going to hit mainstream news
I highly doubt that
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
by ufc4 on Jun 28, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, if this was in the UFC, maybe..
but ultimate chaos? doubt it. haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the
both of you may have missed the broader point of what I was saying, this is the sort of thing that is going to be used against MMA.
by proflex on Jun 28, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the MMA haters wont even know/hear about this.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That may
be true this time, but how many more times can something like this happen before it does make mainstream news, Does someone have to die in a ring before the shit hits the fan. This is the type of reffing that is inexcusable. Who knows what kind of damage Rizzo has suffered due to the reffing. Despite what others have asserted, the extra blows after Rizzo was out will affect him, we might not see the affects right away, but chances are he will have adverse affects.
by proflex on Jun 28, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, i get your point. and i agree with you completely..
all i disagreed on was the mainstream press getting it.. cause the UFC doesn’t even get that much mainstream press..
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kongo-Al-Turk was a horrible stoppage too
And that didn’t generate any “mainstream” buzz.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 28, 2009 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it was in an event that was actually on the radar then sure but nobody even knew this event was happening I dont think anyone at ESPN bought this PPV
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
by ufc4 on Jun 28, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on guys
how many MMA sites have covered this event, this is one of many. You can bet your last dollar that morons like Bill Riley have these sites book marked too. This info is readily available, just because it wasn’t a "big’ show, or relatively unheard of, it’s easy to find info on this sort of thing.
by proflex on Jun 28, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Rielly(spelling?) doesnt bookmark mma sites..
he doesn’t even know half the shit he’s talking about.. some guy just gave him a few stats and he spins it to whatever he wants. haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think you are being a bit dramatic here proflex. It would be one thing if Rizzo had actually gotten hurt but the guy got up and walked out on his own power, if people like Bill O’Reilly (I assume that’s who you were talking about) are looking for a story to try and bring down MMA this isn’t the one.
Due to Cheick Kongo's atrocious takedown defense....
Walla walla walla, I’m an idiot
by ufc4 on Jun 28, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Reilly
would be the guy working to keep MMA out of NY.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 28, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
but this won’t help any, and it really isn’t that much of stretch for him providing other uneducated senators preventing regulation in other states, this is the point that I’m trying to make here, this is just adding fuel to the fire overall. I’m not suggesting this one incident will stop it, but overall it might have an impact.
by proflex on Jun 28, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MichaelDavSmith:
Ultimate Chaos may have been the worst MMA show I’ve ever seen.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 12:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
apparently hes never heard of YAMA pit fighitng
by pandaboy99 on Jun 28, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess he missed War Gods and Shamrock versus Shamu.
by Steve4192 on Jun 28, 2009 7:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never been more entertained by an MMA show than I was the night of Wargods. It’s a terrible waste of memory, but I’ll never forget it.
by cmsove on Jun 28, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on my way home from covering the card now. Terrible terrible terrible stoppage. Mississippi has a sanctioning body though so I don’t blame the state. Just the inept ref. Sorry for any typos, I’m on the iPhone.
by Zach Adams on Jun 28, 2009 12:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
1st round ground and pound win!!! Bob Lashley is the best Bob!
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 12:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow he seriously said he’s the best Bob?..
He must have read my post:
“Has anyone noticed that both their names are Bob?
I think this is a genuine grudge match folks!
BATTLE OF THE BOBS!! WHOS THE BOBBIER AND THE BOBBEST?"
He is now the bobbier and the bobbiest!
Salute to our new Bob, Ruler of Bobtovia.
by DirtyML on Jun 28, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked it when Bob's boobs jiggled.
Or was it Bobby’s? Dunno but I was mezmorized.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 28, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow…that is a scary pic….
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Jun 28, 2009 1:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The thing that sucks about this situation is the more you watch it, the worse it looks. That said, no doubt there was at least 2, maybe 3 shots that shouldnt have happened. And whats worse, those punches werent like Lesnars peppering little rabbit punches on couture, they were some serious wind right up and let fly power hits.
Thats a couple of brutal KOs for Rizzo. Might be time to hang up the gloves if he values his health.
by GeeDub on Jun 28, 2009 2:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In all seriousness, I though Yvel cracked Rizzo’s skull on that last punch, and I cringed. I was really worried that Pedro suffered serious damage from that last punch, and I was just relieved to see him stand up on his own power.
I don’t blame Yvel at all. I understand that you get caught up in the moment, and that’s why it’s necessary for the refs to be completely aware of what’s going on. Looks like that ref was in a daze or something.
by goodbones on Jun 28, 2009 5:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there actually is a commission in mississippi
by noscarznoproof on Jun 28, 2009 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 28, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did Lashley vs Sapp get sanctioned when Lashley didn’t weigh in as a super heavyweight but Din Thomas got scratched for half a pound?
by who me on Jun 28, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know the particulars...
simply that there is a body in place that oversees MMA in the state. They might suck at it…but they’re there
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 28, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The whole event just seems to be chock full of sketchy stuff.
by who me on Jun 28, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HW in boxing usually doesn’t have an upper limit.
So it wouldn’t surprise me if lots of athletic commissions don’t have the 265 pound limit for HW in MMA written into the law/code/whatever gives the Athletic commission their authority.
by Phildo on Jun 29, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just watched the YouTube a couple times
The first time it doesn’t look like that bad of a stoppage. When you slow it down and replay it, it’s clear Rizzo takes 2 shots while he’s completely out. The ref doesn’t get to slow it down and replay though. While it’s happening live, I’m not sure he could have done much better. The fact it, Yvel is a beast and Rizzo was defenseless. It’s going to happen sometimes. Not saying the ref couldn’t have done better, but I’ve seen a lot worse.
by jebushchrist on Jun 28, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thought the same thing. Only really 2 shots that you could say were truly late and in the heat of the moment i don’t think many refs would have stopped it any sooner.
by ronniebonnie on Jun 28, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah It’s on youtube. Didn’t look that bad to me.
by starvin on Jun 28, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should also say that I am relatively new to mma compared to most of you. So I’ve spent far less hours watching fights, I’m just saying it doesn’t look that bad, on first watch, to the untrained eye. Not saying it WASN’T bad, just how it looked at full speed, to me.
by starvin on Jun 28, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with jebushcrist.
Live it doesn’t look like the worst stoppage of all time.
by !claw on Jun 28, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope Gilbert gets KO’ed and pounded out while unconciousin his next fight. I am sorry, he knew perfectly well Pedro was out he should have at least switched to pitty patty puches or light hammerfists when he knew Pedro was out.
by Bandaka on Jun 28, 2009 11:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it's stupid to go after Gilbert for this
Most guys are conditioned to go until the ref stops them. He didn’t keep hammering on him after the ref stepped in like Rampage did, he didn’t hold onto a choke too long. In his video he also said he was sorry and expressed concern for his opponent. That goes alot farther than most fighters do…and this is coming from someone who has a history of being dirty and doing shady stuff….I was quite surprised.
Lay off him
by soadtrails on Jun 28, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
Do you want action or not? People act they don’t want to see someone get KTFO, and always blame the ref. Gilbert should’ve known that Rizzo was out, why don’t you blame him. Because he was in the heat of the moment??? Just be happy that Rizzo is okay! Everytime you step into the cage you should be prepared for the worst.
by MAV85 on Jun 28, 2009 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Are you Sexysassytrishammafan in disguise?
by mythbuster on Jun 28, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they both deserve respect
Cause yvel and rizzo looks good and is a good father, family man, and Businessman and I’m glad to know them and i met them both. So I like them equally cause they are good to their kids. Wow.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 28, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The ref is paid to stop fights
The fighter is paid to fight….that’s why the ref is there
by soadtrails on Jun 28, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In defense of Yvel
Yvel did nothing wrong. This wasn’t Rampage giving extra shots while being pulled off Wandy. It isn’t the fighters job to decide when his opponent cannot intelligently defend himself—it’s the ref. The ref should have stopped the fight before the last two shots.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on Jun 28, 2009 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Exactly...
if he tries to just give easy shots to the downed fighter and Rizzo recovers and survives the round and then somehow wins in the 2nd round everyone would be screaming that Yvel should have finished him off when he had the chance
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 28, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DING DING DING
We have a winner! Thank you Brent.
by soadtrails on Jun 28, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, he didn't
You keep at your opponent until the ref stops you. Them’s the rules.
by subo on Jun 28, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jesus F Christ, did anyone even watch the fight before going on a tirade? Y’all like a sherdog/cnn combo.
Everybody fightin' bout a spoonful...
by plastict on Jun 28, 2009 2:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the insightful and thought provoking input to the conversation. 
by mythbuster on Jun 28, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
yay a bunny rabbit.
Everybody fightin' bout a spoonful...
by plastict on Jun 28, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even Yvel thought the ref was late with the stop. It was bad but I don’t think it was as bad as some people are making it out to be.
by who me on Jun 28, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to say that from the original angle in real time the stoppage didn’t looked that slow. Another camera angle they used later might have made it appear a bit slow, but a still picture does the event no justice at all. I’m not saying that the ref wouldn’t have been justified in stopping it a few punches sooner, but from my view it wasn’t apparent that Rizzo was out until he was hit a time or two on the ground. We routinely see a fighter absorb extra punches between the time that the ref begins to intervene and the time he’s actually able to get between the fighters.
I can’t see that Yvel did anything wrong. I certainly can’t see how the Mississippi commission can be at fault unless this particular ref has exhibited a pattern of allowing fighters to take unnecessary damage. The judgment calls that an MMA ref has to make in a short time make his or her job difficult to do and easy to criticize. We should strive for perfection but not be surprised when such a lofty goal is not obtained.
by Cannon Jacques on Jun 28, 2009 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe an extra punch late
Not too bad.
In general, I’d rather have that than an early, questionable stoppage.
The punches Lawler laid on Trigg were equal or worse, and a lot of people were saying that “Trigg deserved it”.
The ref was maybe a punch or two too late, split second…but he jumped in immediately after when Rizzo was absolutely out.
I couldn’t imagine where Noguiera would be right now if he was a victim of early stoppages.
Early stoppages ruin careers and sends you to the back of the line.
In a sport where 95% of fighters cannot retire after fighting for 10 years, an early stoppage is expensive.
Some fighters get KO’ed in practice and you guys don’t hear about it or complain against it.
by MickDawg on Jun 29, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well if Nog had been the victim of some early stoppages perhaps he wouldn’t now be the victim of looking like he’s 60 years old. Seriously these types of things take years off a man’s life.
by who me on Jun 29, 2009 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nog would then be nobody important
Not rich, and not considered top two HW of all time.
There’s a trade-off there.
He can always be like GSP and just tap to strikes.
Imagine Bob Sapp with a win over Nog.
by MickDawg on Jun 29, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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