Marcus Davis Piles on With Ideas to Change MMA Judging
Here at BloodyElbow, we have been having a back and forth about MMA judging, and now we've got someone whose career is in the hands of that system chiming in. From MMA Junkie:
"A lot of the [judges] just kind of at the very end (of a round) remember the last 10 seconds or 15 seconds or whatever, and that's how they judge it," Davis said. "It should be maybe an easy breakdown for them in front of them. Maybe a card that has a breakdown of, I don't know if you want to do breaking a five-minute round up in to different quarters or by minute or whatever, but some way to easily categorize those things that they're looking at: cage generalship, grappling, takedowns, strikes."
Davis believes additional clarification is needed on the importance of those items in relation to their effectiveness in the outcome of the bout.
"We've got to figure out what do you score more," Davis said. "Do you score 'one takedown is greater than however many strikes,' or should a takedown even be considered for full points or full benefit if somebody takes somebody down and they don't so anything with it.
"If you take somebody down and automatically they stand up, or they take them down and they don't really do anything, they don't ground-and-pound, what kind of credit do you do for that?"
As much as I enjoy watching Marcus' work and respect him as a fighter, I have to completely and utterly disagree with him here.
First off, IMHO he lost the Hardy fight. It was a classic case of Marcus dominating most of the minutes but Hardy scoring the most points. If it had been a football game, Davis would have dominated yardage and time of possession but Hardy would've scored all the touchdowns. In baseball, Davis would have pitched a great game but given up those crucial runs that cost him the game. In MMA, he dominated position and many of the exchanges, but Hardy landed the big shots. Its not just that Davis got cut and bruised even worse than usual, its that he got knocked on his ass, repeatedly.
Secondly, adding more complications and requirements to the scoring regimen just muddies the waters. Anyone who tried to watch Olympic boxing this year knows we don't want to go down that route. Fundamentally, judging by human beings is going to be inherently subjective and flawed. Deal with it.
If fighters don't like the decisions the judges come up with, they have a much better option: finish the fight.
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63 comments
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Comments
If fighters don’t like the decisions the judges come up with, they have a much better option: finish the fight.
yes you’re right.
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 25, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And with 100% of the vote...
Kid Nate remains the President of Iran.
by Rob Borer on Jun 25, 2009 10:54 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Anyone who tried to watch boxing this year knows we don’t want to go down that route. Fundamentally, judging by human beings is going to be inherently subjective and flawed. Deal with it.
I’m not sure I follow what that means?
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 25, 2009 10:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He’s just talking crazy again.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 25, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a perfect example out there. Does anyone here watch compeditive figure skating?
Anyone…
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 25, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
left a key word out
Olympic boxing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ROBOT JUDGE
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Jun 26, 2009 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
People certainly will be subject to their own biases. However, that’s no reason not to demand improvements to the procedure.
Still, Davis is being a baby.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Jun 25, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Come on man!
The judges obviously were more biased toward the parts of the round where he was getting his face smashed off and not the parts where he was slightly leading.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 25, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really thought he won rounds 1 and 3, but they were so close and he lost round 2 so badly that I don’t think he has any business complaining.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 25, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. And what makes this even more intriguing is that Davis cumulatively landed a lot of strikes in those areas of the round in which Hardy didn’t land a big shot. Obviously, since there is no quantitative values to blows set, it’s up to the judges… and I’m going to guess this.
If a judge sees a round of peppering shots over and over, then a huge blow by one fighter, take a wild guess who gets the round. Why? Because judges in this sport are novice. Plain and simple. They don’t take the time to understand at all.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 26, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marcus Davis lost that fight under UFC, Pride, or really any judging criteria that could be put in place. He needs to accept this.
A lot of people want to weight specific moves in the judging criteria. I think this is a horrible idea. This would creat point fighting and ruin the sport.
They need more competent judges. That’s about it.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 25, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If fighters don’t like the decisions the judges come up with, they have a much better option: finish the fight.
I agree totally with that but I still think its reasonable to ask for some clarification of how points are awarded. After all, you dont want to be totally focused on finishing the fight whilst your opponent is focused on steadily racking up points and at the end of the fight you lose a decision. Nate Diaz v Guida and Serra v Hughes were fights I thought the losing fighter had clearly more desire and effort to end the fight than the winner. Perhaps Davis should just be asking that they weigh the attempts to finish the fights far more heavily. That way, how points are scored isnt really important. If you are attempting to finish the fight, you’ll be rewarded.
by GeeDub on Jun 25, 2009 11:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But that doesn’t do him much good, does it?
by An Old Friend on Jun 26, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it would. If attempting to finish the fight is how you score the most points, he knows exactly what he needs to do to win………..effectively look for submissions or KO blows.
by GeeDub on Jun 26, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything
Except the last bit. I think that while a fighter who gameplans for a decision win won’t get a lot of sympathy from me if things don’t go his way, saying “Shoulda finished it” puts all the blame for a flawed system on them.
And because I don’t like to complain without offering an alternative, Breen has turned me into a 10-10 believer. I think judges utilizing the full range of the system is the answer. Was a round too close to call? Don’t call it. Did you just say “Damn, can’t believe he made it out of that round”? 10-8.
The ULTIMATE ultimate proving ground.
by Dodectagon on Jun 25, 2009 11:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
To Brent,
I Still Don’t Understand How You Fully Block Someone From The Site? Can’t They Just Start A New Name And Stuff?? Personal Curiousity, Not Asking To Be Banned. Haha.
by FutureChamp on Jun 26, 2009 12:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There are several ways to make sure people who don’t deserve to be a part of the community stay the fuck out.
by Luke Thomas on Jun 26, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And we all appreciate the effort ot keep the idiots out. I was posting on a few boards and blogs and gradually, almost all of my reading and posting migrated to BloodyElbow. I don’t have a ton of time, so any time I dedicate to staying informed on MMA is valuable to me.
I have to admit that the final push that brought me over to BE was Wargods.
by cmsove on Jun 26, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for example
Flyghtt was also EazyEwasMyDad. Both profiles got banned.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Typing In All Caps Should Be Banworthy Behavior By The Way.
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Jun 26, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How Bout When Capitalizing The First Letter Of Every Word?
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 26, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weo3 got my back :P
"Like a ballet of violence clothed in fine Brazilian silk." ~ MMASuPreMaCy
by Benicio on Jun 26, 2009 2:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Caps lock is cruise control for cool
How taste my pee pee pee? LIKE WIN!!! Thank you Machida!
by IHateMMA on Jun 26, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 26, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It will get you a warning but not an immediate ban.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 26, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that Davis has some valid points especially regarding takedowns
I don’t personally see what is so disagreeable about Davis’s comments. Yes, he is obviously referring to his fight against Hardy, but that doesn’t mean that his comments don’t make sense. There are times when it seems that the judges look at the ends of a round instead of the full round. Also, his questions concerning takedowns have been a topic of discussion for a long time.
by chrisbboy82 on Jun 26, 2009 12:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Best. Poll. Ever.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 26, 2009 1:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I.Agree.
I`m actually gonna rec this essay by Kid, just cause of his most awesmomest poll ever.
"Marcus Davis is a plastic paddy"-Dan Hardy
by BlueberryMuffin on Jun 26, 2009 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He
thinks Cecil could actually sit still and watch every minute of the 1st round? By the middle of round 2 Cecil is getting Nachos and a drink at the concession stand.
by Riney on Jun 26, 2009 1:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe the UFC should set up a super-fight between Marcus and BJ to see who is the undisputed whinge-weight champion of the world.
by brad23 on Jun 26, 2009 1:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good comment got deleted in a bad thread
The personal attack wasn’t needed, sure, but how about someone talk to Kid Nate about thinking through his polls a bit more? How about asking something meaningful, with well-chosen choices so the community has a chance to give their opinion? This was just a waste of space. Yes, this was supposed to be funny, but 2 or 3 of his last few polls have had their own flaws as well.
by Meeaaat on Jun 26, 2009 12:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
Hey appreciate the feedback.
I guess I just don’t take online polls seriously as anything other than a little bit of fun to add to the post. This one was a joke, some people dug it, some didn’t.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 1:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Without polls how will we as internet blowhards clearly show what/who we hate?
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Jun 26, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm what does the actions button do? I clicket on it once and nothing happend. also showing my true noob colors, how do I rec posts?
Hello, Japan!
by Mr.Kib on Jun 26, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
click the actions button
and then click the rec button that appears.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I posted this late in the Rogan thread on scoring, so I thought I would re-suggest it here.
How about more points per round?
Or more specifically, a 10 point must system per facet of a round.
10 point must for:
Striking
Grappling
Submissions
Takedowns
etc..
So that fighters could score better or worse than their opponent on each of those with a total being achieved for each round and the fighter overall.
For example, in the Sanchez v Guida fight, round one might look like:
Striking: 10 – 7 Sanchez
Takedowns: 10 – 9 Guida
Grappling: 10 – 9 Guida
Submissions: 10 – 10 (I don’t remember any submissions in that round)
Octagon Control: 10 – 9 Sanchez
Total for round 1: 48 – 46 for Sanchez
Just and idea and an example.
by Razreshat on Jun 26, 2009 8:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No, because those aren’t supposed to weighed equally, and they shouldn’t be weighed equally.
by Phildo on Jun 26, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do we know they aren't supposed to be weighed equally?
Where is that ever explained? I’d like to read it, in all seriousness.
by Razreshat on Jun 26, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thought experiment
put that form in front of Cecil Peoples and imagine the blank look on his face.
Keep in mind that judges have to score these fights in real time, from a pretty poor vantage point. Complicating things won’t help.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might be more complicated that what goes on now, but that doesn't make it excessively complicated.
They get the 1 minute between rounds to circle the number for each element that they are awarding to each fighter for each element and then turn in the card.
4th judge tallies the points at the end.
People unable to apply a numeric value to each catagorie in less than a minute are disqualified from judging.
Seem like a middle ground between 10 point must for all things considered and just writing the winner’s name on a card at the end of the fight.
by Razreshat on Jun 26, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First off, IMHO he lost the Hardy fight. It was a classic case of Marcus dominating most of the minutes but Hardy scoring the most points. If it had been a football game, Davis would have dominated yardage and time of possession but Hardy would’ve scored all the touchdowns
I’m not sure I understand this at all. Davis dominated most of the minutes, but Hardy scored more points. So, in all of those minutes, what was Davis doing that wasn’t scoring points?
This seems to be a major problem with the scoring system. There aren’t any definitive ways to score power shots that down opponents like in boxing. I’m assuming that’s where this stems from.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 26, 2009 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This specifically is what bothers me about the growth of things like fightmetrics and punch counts.
I don’t think a pawing jab, or 15 of them, should have the same value of a well timed/placed uppercut or other powershot.
by Razreshat on Jun 26, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It probably doesn’t though. If you place a solid powershot, the effect would be a downed opponent, which weighs heavily in the fight. The problem is that there is no quantitative value we can set. It’s all weighing in the minds of the judges. BUT…
If Davis cumulatively added a lot of jabs up over the course of the round, and then Hardy lands a big shot… Davis could have amassed enough points to still edge out Hardy. We would never know this though… no quantitiative values are set.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 26, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
precisely because we don’t award points per pitty pat in MMA. You judge the round as a whole. Hardy scored so much more damage than Davis in 2/3 of the rounds that they’re not really even arguable.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, awarding points on pitty pat in MMA is solely up to the judges discretion on how they score the fight. Yes, you judge the round as a whole, but if Davis is peppering shots for most of the round and eats a big blow, it shouldn’t come down to Hardy’s one shot. This doesn’t entirely apply to this fight however because Hardy landed more than that, but I’m talking about the structure of judging in a round.
But I disagree that scoring purely on more damage is a definitive measure as to who won the fight. If it were a street fight, maybe I’d agree, but it’s a sport. In regards to this actual fight, it was so close even when looking at FightMetric’s breakdown, that Hardy getting the edge doesn’t bother me at all. But in other battles down the road or in the past, I have a huge problem with that type of criteria.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 26, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I look at it in terms of what kind of fights I want to see
and I want guys throwing shots with bad intentions, not pitty pat point fighting.
There’s a theory in business management that the things that are measured for reports are the things workers do. Its the same way with judging in MMA — fighters will do the things they think will get them the wins on the scorecards.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had it been a football game
Davis would have maybe gotten a field goal and a safety.
But it wasn’t.
Had Hardy not done anything in those rounds, I’d have happily awarded them to Davis. But since Hardy nearly KTFO’d him twice and Davis did no serious damage, I give Hardy all the points.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve only watched the fight once, but IMO, Hardy definitely won. Hardy certainly got under Davis’ skin before the fight, and it’s clear Davis hasn’t taken any of it well since the fight. I dunno. Maybe I should watch the fight over again, but realistically, the judges don’t get a do-over on a fight; they score what they see the first time. I tended to agree with them this time.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on Jun 26, 2009 10:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cumulative scoring of points off of jabs and whatnot does not work in MMA. Sure Marcus Davis hit Dan Hardy a lot of time. BUT Dan Hardy beat the shit out of Marcus Davis. Saying that Marcus Davis wins a fight because he connected more times is ridiculous. Especially when he came out of that fight looking like te victim of a hate crime. I want to see fighters trying to finish. I don’t want to see MMA become the snooze-fest that boxing has become
by Madskillz on Jun 26, 2009 10:21 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
No, what’s more ridiculous is scoring the fight based purely on “how Davis looked” after the fight was over. If that was how MMA fights were scored, I could get my ass kicked for a round and then glance some elbows of someone’s face and still win even though I got my ass kicked for the whole round.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 26, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
except
that Hardy’s blows weren’t glancing elbows that just cut Davis — ok some of them were but the blows that matter were the knees, elbows and punches that staggered and dropped Davis.
Davis got his ass whipped. Its not like Florian vs Sherk where Sherk utterly dominated but Kenny scored a glancing elbow that cut him. Hardy scored real damage with some serious blows.
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by Kid Nate on Jun 26, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The blow that cut Davis open near the end of the fight was a glancing elbow. It was probably the most significant blow in terms of showing massive damage to Davis, yet not actually hurting him to a point that he was dazed or done.
The dropping blows were significant, and I agree that they should be weighted more. But you can’t simply weigh them over everything else that happened in the round. What happens in a fight in which one fighter dominates with jabs, then gets tagged at the end of the round? There are no quantitative values to blows, and it’s purely up to the judges. It’s all subjectivity, and that sucks. In my mind, if a fighter dominates for 4:45 seconds of the rounds with pitter patter, then gets tagged, he still wins the round.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 26, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Marcus Davis hit Dan Hardy a lot of time. BUT Dan Hardy beat the shit out of Marcus Davis. Saying that Marcus Davis wins a fight because he connected more times is ridiculous.
I didn’t get a chance to see this fight, but I saw the after photos. And when you put it that way, I agree. Rec’d.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 26, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think we need to completely change the system, but certain things need to be clearified in writing for the judges, such as… what constitutes (and more use of) 10-10 and 10-8 rounds (and maybe also the use of a tie breaker round), how much should a take down count for (especially if you dont do anything with it), how much should a failed submission attempt count for if anything, is the emphasis on landing more shots or doing more damage, etc. Once these things were defined, there could be a clear arguement for why a certain fighter won or lost, unlike now where it can be very subjective.
The least subjective way to do it, not that I am necessarily saying this is how it should be done (because there are some flaws in it), would be to just count amount of landed strikes and kicks per round and give a 10-9 round to the fighter with more (no 10-8 rounds because this can be subjective and they are hardly ever used anyway). Since we cant really tell how damaging a strike is, they all count the same (for example, some look worse than they really are, some fighters are more prone to cuts, etc.). The advantage to doing more damage would be a better chance to finish the fight. Take downs count for nothing unless you do damage from the top (damage from the bottom would count just the same). If you take a fighter down, and he beats you up from the bottom, was there really any advantage in taking him down? Submission attempts count for nothing unless finished (after all, the other fighter managed to get out of them).
by metaldome on Jun 26, 2009 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The main flaws in this are that I think damage should count for something and if someone spends half the round trying to get out of a submission that control should count for something, but the more subjective you get, the more arguements there will be, which is why they need to figure these things out and have them clearly spelled out for the judges. Then potential judges could watch past fights and be graded on how well they do, and corrected, so that things would be more uniform before they got to the big shows.
by metaldome on Jun 26, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 








![Paul Daley - "Dan Hardy Will Butcher Mike Swick":
"I won’t be fighting at UFC 105, but I will be there meeting the fans and sitting down with some popcorn to see Dan (Hardy) butcher (Mike) Swick. [He's] been bashing me for some reason, I don’t know why, ripping on my record and things like that. All I did was accept a fight he’d pulled out of but he seems to have a problem with me."
"He said I am big headed, but I have gone out of my way to be humble in the UFC. After the fight I didn’t jump around or nothing or shoot my mouth. I think Swick is jealous because he pulled out of the Kampmann fight and would never have done that if it were him in there and not me. I’ve got eight losses — so what? I’ve fought literally twice as many people as he has and I have fought better opposition than he has. His best win was against Marcus Davis and Dan beat Marcus much worse than he did with lay and pray. Dan is going to get rid of Swick in Manchester next month. You won’t hear too much about him after UFC 105."
HT: Eurosport Yahoo (via MMA Mania)](http://cdn1.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/77647/swickhardyfitchedith_small.jpeg)











