Kirik on the UG responds to Dr. Benjamin's article against 5-min rounds for women at...

Kirik on the UG responds to Dr. Benjamin's article against 5-min rounds for women at MMAJunkie.com:

"There were similar arguments made by MDs against women running in marathons. I had a neighbor, Sara Mae Berman who was a pioneer of running marathons. It didn't kill her. Female fighters with an adequate number of fights should be able to fight 5 min rounds, taking the same risks guys do."

"Arguments to the contrary, even by an MD, are sexist, not scientific. They are part of a long unfortunate chain in this country that confuses biases with science. Borat summed it up pretty well, "Is it not a problem that the woman have a smaller brain than a man? The government scientist Dr Yamuka has proved it is size of squirrel." Ron Burgundy did too: "I'm a man who discovered the wheel and built the Eiffel Tower out of metal and brawn. That's what kind of man I am. You're just a woman with a small brain. With a brain a third the size of us. It's science."

"It is kind of sad to read an MD making the same goofy statements. Guy probably drives around in a truck with a bear in the back. Scares kids with it :-)"

"When Katherine Switzer became the first woman to run Boston, one of the officials (named Jock :-) tried to drag her out of the race. Her then boyfriend was there, and shoved Jock out of the race."

"It took another generation to develop women athletes who could handle the shoving by themselves. I kind of wish a women fighter would shove these male grandmothers out of the way, too."

"In the mean time, have a laugh."

HT: Fightlinker.com

almost 3 years ago Nick Thomas 30 comments 6 recs |

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Later in the thread, Keith Kizer had this to say

There are still many states against women boxers fighting 3-minute rounds. The NSAC and I have been “fighting this fight” for years.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 23, 2009 2:25 PM EDT reply actions

I can’t believe that an actual doctor would post something like that.

by Phildo on Jun 23, 2009 2:27 PM EDT reply actions

In defense of Dr Benjamin, for the most part he knows what he’s talking about. He’s also one of the biggest fans and loudest advocates of MMA in his proffesion.

Now is he an expert on women’s cardio? No certainly not. Occasionally he does fire out a questionable post. He had one comparing the NFL combine to pre-civil war slave trades I took exception to. But the cool thing is, I called him out and he responded with a personal email.

I highly recommend reading his blogs. He’s a big sports fan and really there just aren’t enough doctor’s out there willing to give opinions so openly.

by Headkick on Jun 23, 2009 2:41 PM EDT reply actions

This is true. I normally like his columns. I guess that’s why a column like this is so damn frustrating – I know he’s capable of better insight.

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Jun 23, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, I usually really like his work. Lord knows what happened to cause him write this crap.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions

He has a pretty good position usually, understanding that a snapped forearm may look horrifying and hurt like hell, but it heals in a few weeks as opposed to repeated concussions leaving someone permanently disabled.

I didn’t understand the original post though. The issue seemed to be that women have poor cardio so they shouldn’t fight long fights. There was some suggesting that the Carano/Santos fight would be an exception, both top level athletes capable of going 5 minute rounds. So the argument would have to be that if women in MMA generally had better cardio, then it would be ok, but since the sport is in its infancy, it’s not good right now.

That sort of makes sense, but not a whole lot of men 10 years ago in MMA were capable of going strong for 3 or 5 5-minute rounds. It’s the workout animals like Couture that could do it, became stars, and forced everyone else in the sport to do the same. It was because most could not that the ones who could really excelled. So I’m not sure that rewarding fighters with poor cardio will do the sport any good in the long run.

by Stanlee on Jun 23, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions

If this is his principal criticism of five minute rounds for women’s bouts:

I am not a fan of five-minute rounds for WMMA because studies have suggested that the likelihood for injury significantly increases as athletes (male or female) tire, especially with contact and combat athletes. In most of the WMMA contests that I have watched, fatigue becomes a major factor with the current three-minute rounds.

Then he should be against the vast majority of regional shows.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 23, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Saying ‘the longer they fight, they more likely they are to get hurt’ is… it’s just mind-numbingly stupid.

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions

On the flip side is he against 3 min rounds for men.

In some cases I’m for 3 min rounds for all fighters. I’d like to see the rounds increase especially if the 10 point must system is here to stay. In true title fights I can see them staying the same but I kinda like the “shooto” class of fighters.

On a aside I don’t think they always are anti BJJ. with the 3 min round you don’t have to worry as much about getting reversed as it’s easier to just survive to the end of the round.

by natyong on Jun 24, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions

Another thing we do want a lot of fights to go longer. That’s a big appeal of MMA. If the fights don’t leave the fans wanting then the majority of fans aren’t going to be invested in MMA to stay fans. Just consider Royce Gracie/Sakaraba, Where would we be if the cut off had been 30 min or even an hour. We would have be ecstatic pre-fight as it’s longer than any other recent fight, but we still would have been wanting more.

In a rare instance it’s great to have this type fight that goes to decisions because it gives a taste of what could be, in turn keeping them invested in the competition.

by natyong on Jun 24, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions

A cute set of initials after your name does not denote intelligence, nor make you good at what you do. There were many Ivy League MBA’s and PhD’s working for Bear Stearns and AIG…probably still are…didn’t help much their either.

That said, I’d still agree that a doctor should know full well that there isn’t such a significant difference in men and womens’ bodies to not run a marathon/kick and punch each other for five minute rounds.

by Dabashire on Jun 23, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions

In fairness, it usually denotes a minimal level of intelligence. And it does normally indicate some competence in a specific area. The problem comes when someone uses their formal education in one area (e.g. neuroscience research focusing on sodium channels in fruit fly neurons) to suggest that their view in another area (e.g. personal relationship counselling) is somehow better than everyone else’s.

I read the article. It didn’t seem like he presented a lot of sound arguments based on gender-specific differences in physiology. But then, that’s probably not his area of expertise.

by 577 on Jun 24, 2009 6:33 AM EDT up reply actions

I feel like having that picture for this article is borderline sexist

by Flyghtt on Jun 23, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions

why? does it show too much leg?

by szucconi on Jun 23, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions

Legs, plural. I count six knees! SIX! Someone think about the children!

(Are there any children on BE? If so, I’ll have to moderate my language…)

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Jun 23, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

I am 26, some would call me a child. Mostly my girlfriend.

by szucconi on Jun 23, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions

What is it with wives and girlfriends? My wife keeps telling me that she’s started feeling like she’s a cradle robber, and that I’m really young compared to her. I’m a year older than she is! What the hell, women? Why must you be so confusing!?!

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Jun 23, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions

its all part of "the plan"

i’ve already said too much.

I'm the kind of girl who loves to watch a GOOD fight!
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by funnytiger on Jun 23, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Pack your shit :-)

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Its trying to imply that women are not up to the athletic challenges that men are. Its taking position on a topic when really the writers position should be neutral. Besides that, women do run marathons so its just kind of bs. I’m sure I can find a picture of a man like that too if I look hard enough

by Flyghtt on Jun 24, 2009 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions

Did you read the article? Do you know what the picture is?

by Phildo on Jun 24, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions

Clearly, he did not.

by szucconi on Jun 24, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions

i hate arguments like this. they tend to just irritate me. but it’s nice to see a group of fella’s stating that there isn’t much of a difference between men and women cardio wise. so kudos to all of you.

the really effed up thing is that there is “scientific” research out there that (is biased as shit) but “proves” that women have less cardio capabilities. there’s lots of folk that really belief this crap and i shall liken it to the spaghetti monster.

"I love it when a guy is bleeding on top of me." -- Diego Sanchez, post fight interview about his fight with Clay Guida

by snet tim on Jun 24, 2009 4:50 AM EDT reply actions

It is undeniable to some extent

That women are not as physically capable as men in strength/cardio. Look at the world record discrepancies between men and women in athletics to see this. This is obviously speaking about those at the ultra elite level, I’m not saying any bloke could outdo a female athlete.
HOWEVER
On an even playing field, it shouldn’t matter one bit. It is not a woman fighting a man for 5 minute rounds, it is 2 women. Consensus seems to be that 3mins is not long enough for a proper round, given how long it can take for grapplers to set up subs, etc.

Also, I dare say I have seen gassed fighters get subbed quickly more than tko’d, so perhaps an argument can be made for gassing leading to less injuries…

by Well Read Idiot on Jun 24, 2009 7:26 AM EDT reply actions

Most of the posts in here confound me. Everybody is more likely to get hurt when they get tired. Dr. Benjamin’s claim and Medical fact. Some of us don’t like to see women, children, and the elderly get hurt. Sorry if you think I’m sexist, etc. On the other hand, although is a moral few might find all fights among children, women, and the elderly to be despicable, I often times find them quite amusing and entertaining. We enjoy it until someone gets hurt. Heck in some cases we might apply this to some men we like. CC/Gonzaga will always make me cringe.

I’m confounded because by my logic all you people are hating on Dr. Benjamin for not liking to see women hurt. He’s a Dr. I’m glad to hear this. It kinda helps ease my mind that he still cares for people. He isn’t a fan of WMMA he states that many times in his article.

Here’s another point related to the counter arguement shared in this article. As Well Read Idiot posted above it is fact to some extent that generally women and men’s strength and cardio aren’t near equal. I’ll even make the point scientifically that women cardio is better than men. Could women outrun men in ultramarathon races? Yes they often can. On the other hand Well Read Idiot makes another good point that it’s all relative, men fight men, and women fight women so does this arguement even apply?

by natyong on Jun 24, 2009 9:13 AM EDT reply actions

Everybody is more likely to get hurt when they get tired. Dr. Benjamin’s claim and Medical fact.

Also common sense.

Also insinuating that “true fans” are only interested for the T’s and A’s of the cute fighters seems kind of patronizing.

by Tonley on Jun 25, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions

I didn’t get that from the article, but if you did and it seems quite a few others did also well than I’m down with that arguement. There is just a lot of people in this thread stating that this “common sense” according to Benjamin only applies to women. They are wrong. This rebuttal is a great rebuttal to a point that never was made and completely contradicts Benjamin’s original points.

by natyong on Jun 28, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions

But saying that he doesn’t want to see women hurt but likes to see men hurt is sexist, and that’s the problem.

There is no medical reason that the length of women’s rounds should be less than men. If 5 minutes is too long for women, it’s too long for men also.

by Phildo on Jun 25, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions

PC claims like your is what upsets me. Black and White. It’s a problem to you, get over it. don’t force me to be a clone of your ideas. That’s what getting MMA accepted is all about. How dare we people, how dare a doctor (senator/assemblyman), find entertainment in anybody trying to hurt someone else? Ban it!

I believe his base arguement is that WMMA in it’s current form isn’t anywhere near elite. All non elite fighters shouldn’t be fighting 5 min rounds.

Carino vs Cyborg is probably the biggest fight in Women MMA and they haven’t made weight consistently in years? That’s Elite? Hum. (This paragraph is about my own arguements. Dr. Benjamin did not take this stance towards this fight).

by natyong on Jun 28, 2009 1:33 AM EDT reply actions

I believe his base arguement is that WMMA in it’s current form isn’t anywhere near elite.

But here’s the thing: How do you define elite? If by “elite” you mean someone who’s able to withstand 5 minute rounds without being severally gassed than the upper echelon of female fighters fall under that category since many of them have been fighting five minute rounds already.

And using Gina’s/Cyborg’s weight troubles to paint a broad brush over all of WMMA because of their popularity is illogical.

by Tonley on Jun 28, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions