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Was Clay Guida Robbed Against Diego Sanchez?

Let me quote Brickhaus from his excellent piece on this topic over at Bad Left Hook:

What is a robbery in boxing?  Here's a hint - it's not a decision that you merely disagree with.  It's a decision that is impossible; that there's no reasonable way the judges could have scored the fight in favor of the fighter who actually won.

Without having reviewed the fights, we can safely say Sanchez dominated round one and Guida takes round two based on positional control.  Round three is the most contentious with, in my opinion, Diego getting the better of the striking and Guida getting top control late (after escaping a Sanchez back mount attempt) but not doing much damage or any positional advances.

So, you have two things to decide.  Did Sanchez dominate the first period enough to warrant a 10-8 score?  And who does round three go to?

With that in mind, there's no way you can cry "ROBBERY!" about this decision.  The third round was close enough that you can't give it to Guida conclusively.  Even if you do, Sanchez can still steal a draw with a 10-8 first.

In addition, this fight doesn't expose any flaws in the ten point must system.  If anything, it exposes the flaws of 3 round main events between two guys who have the capability of going 10 more minutes.  With title (read: money) implication on the line, it's extremely unfair for fighters and fans to have fights like this be left to such a high variance format as the three round fight.  Add two rounds, reduce the importance of each individual round, and give us more opportunity to see a decisive finish.

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Diego Sanchez won the 1st and 3rd rounds. End of story.

by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 21, 2009 12:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

This!

Rec’d! I was like Split? WTF are the judges on? Anyway holy fudge that was a great fight. Diego will run through Penn and Florian. Believe it!

1st Rd Diego 10-8
2nd Rd Guida 10-9 (even though Diego beat the shit outta him from the bottom) It’s true.
3rd Rd 10-9 Diego too it to the ground Guida and his lay n pray these last 3 fights of his is pissing me off.

Diego 29-27, YES!!!!!

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you’re the only one still calling Clay a LnPer.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t care if I’m the only one. It’s true. Was he submitting? Was he trying to advance his position? Dude got owned, even from the bottom. Face facts, hes lucky to have been given a split.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

QFT!!!!

Rec

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya. Clay is definitely a lay and pray fighter, but like anyone of that style I won’t deny their talents. Clay has amazing cardio and even after expending a ton of energy he was still able to score take downs in rounds 2 and 3. He definitely made this fight close, and if he was able to even land a couple strikes standing in the 3rd he might have pulled off the W.

by Ahhhoki on Jun 21, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guida didn’t get a takedown in the 3rd. Diego took it to the ground on a choke attempt.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A failed choke attempt that ended up with him on his back.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, fact is Guida didn’t get a takedown in teh 3rd round.

Stop being a baby.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Diego will run through Penn and Florian. Believe it!

Cool the jets, Naruto. The shots that Diego was eating in the 3rd would be knock out blows from Penn.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 21, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said before in another post. Diego will beat Penn (because he is winning his next fight) just like GSP beat him. Better cardio and keeping him on his glutes.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

GSP used his size/strength advantage – Diego won’t have that. He’s also not as intelligent of a fighter.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by themachiavellian on Jun 21, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

However, the pace Diego pushes is insane. No way BJ can hang with that. BJ will gas fast against Diego.

I love me some Sexyama!

by pud333 on Jun 21, 2009 2:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pretty sure BJ Penn would submit both of them.

by Ahhhoki on Jun 21, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus, how did you guys have time to read that?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 12:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I must have loaded the page as you posted it.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Years of reading subtitles while watching Anime.

by Deo Wade on Jun 21, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Lord. Clay Guida is a friggin beast.

"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR

by Rundownloser on Jun 21, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

agrd.

I thought that kick certainly stopped him.

He didn’t even really seemed rocked.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guida is a beast but Diego is a Monster.

Same ole Guida.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not so sure that you can give Guida the second round based on control when Diego did more damage from the bottom. That round was the hardest for me to score.

fightlockdown.com

by The Legend on Jun 21, 2009 12:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Clay controlled where the fight was happening and he was scoring with shots too, still I agree that with those elbows from Diego it was close, he was not only scoring he was forcing Guida back with them.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No robbery at all, it was a very close fight and both guys laid it all out there. It really was a fight where I waited with anticipation for the judges call at the end and it was a fight of the year canidate.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 12:35 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

it was a fight of the year canidate.

Absolutely. These are two guys who always bring it to the cage. Despite some peoples misconception that Guida is a lay and pray fighter, I was very exited for this fight and I was not let down at all.

by mythbuster on Jun 21, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

May be the best free fight I have ever seen.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This might be the year of the free fight with Condit/Kampmann, Brown/Faber II, Torres/Mizugaki, Sanchez/Guida, plus all the stuff on HDNet

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Forgot about Torres vs Mizugaki, good god that was a awsome fight too. “2009, the year of the free fight”! I like the way that sounds.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Guida won the stand-up in the 3rd round, thus having him edge the 3rd 10-9 and probably coming to a draw 28-28 (depending how you score a 10-8 round). But good article, no way you can call it a robbery, I think your point is the right one that something should be done to fix either the scoring system or to prevent ambiguity at the end of fights. And i guess the best thing about it is that this is an easy fight to go back and watch again.

by mo dogg on Jun 21, 2009 12:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

i agree with the 3rd round. Clay had Diego’s timing down and was landing counter rights flushed…etc

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought Clay was getting the better in the stand up slightly in the third. I scored the round for Diego because he had three submission attempts to end the round. The first attempt ended up with Diego on the bottom, but Guida did no damage and ended up defending against Diego’s kimura the majority of the time of the ground. To top it off Diego switched to an armbar attempt and was in the process of standing up as the bell rang. I really think the ground portion of the third round sealed the deal for Diego. Guida’s striking wasn’t decisive enough but Diego completely controlled the action on the ground.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While i don't disagree with your criteria

that is your criteria, or brickhaus’, other peoples could very well differ. I feel as though when a fighter who i THINK wins a fight loses a fight i THINK that fighter was robbed.

Not to say that this is without bias, or even on the same level as your definition, but your definition isn’t the be all end all

"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand

by rockied on Jun 21, 2009 12:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But it is...

Robbery implies that something was STOLEN. If it’s a close fight, well…you just didn’t do enough to convincingly win. Robbery implies that the judges TOOK AWAY a clear win.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simply because Sanchez did some damage from the bottom

(which was impressive), you can’t say Guida didn’t otherwise frustrate him in the second.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guida had good position and control, but wasn’t able to capitalize with it. I think Deigo, even from the bottom, simply out scored him with the offense.

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It just baffles me that in stage of MMA, we still give instant credit for being in a dominant position, regardless of what is done with it.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can’t win on the scorecards from your back. You can finish the fight, but if you don’t, you lose.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can’t win on the scorecards from your back.

You can if your more active than the guy on top.

by Tonley on Jun 21, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Example?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gee if only there were some fight we just saw tonight we could use as an example??

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 2:52 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Top control is still controlling the fight even if it’s not scoring with lots of shots, it’s dull but there is a reason they call it top control. Normally if the guy on bottom is way more active then he’s going to find a way to stand up out of it or move to a position where he has control.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wat if you pull guard...

Aren’t you controlling where the fights taking place? Octagon control and all that?

by Loot on Jun 21, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pulling a guy on top of you is intentionally giving up control to the other guy. Even if it’s not where that guy wants to be, it will still be considered top control for him. There is a reason that for most ground fighters pulling guard is a last resort move when they can’t get a takedown. Most of the fighters who do it aren’t worried about the scorecards anyway they are doing it because they think it’s a way they can finish the fight.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since when are we scoring fights on “frustration”

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

100% agreed.

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it was great decision, and I gave Guida no rounds…. The game has evolved so much that just stalling can no longer get any credit in my eyes.

by RiskReturnGroup on Jun 21, 2009 12:41 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no rounds?

all three judges gave guida the second, and most everyone seems to agree that 10-9 for the second is a gimme

"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand

by rockied on Jun 21, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I thought one gave it to Diego 30-27?

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

29-27

"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand

by rockied on Jun 21, 2009 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As do I.

Diego landed brutal elbows from the bottom in the 2nd, one (or a few) of which cut his head open and consistently went for subs- I saw that round 10-9 Sanchez.

10-9, 10-9, 10-9; 30-27 Sanchez

by SMC on Jun 21, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The only fair outcome was draw.

Sanchez dominated the first. i’d give him 10-8. Guida wins two and three, 10-9. Draw.

Regardless, AWESOME fight. Totally lived up to the hype.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 12:45 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How did Guida win the third round? He didn’t even take Sanchez down, he got on top by escaping a sub, and did very little with it. It almost seems that to some people, as soon as you get on top on the ground you have the round won, no matter what happened in the rest of the round.

by brad23 on Jun 21, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it’s clearly an split-decision for sanchez

by awesome21 on Jun 21, 2009 12:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How can something be a clear split decision?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

cause Subo

said Clay won.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I bet if you look hard enough you can find someone on the internet to say that the losing fighter won the fight that went to decision, does that make every fight clearly a split decision?

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The split decision arguements crack me up, right off the bat anyone who says a fight should of been a split decision should have their entire opinion discounted because they obviously have no clue. A split decision means nothing at all except one judge scored the fight for the other guy, it doesn’t even tell you if a fight was close or not because there are lots of times where one judge seems way out in left field (most of Cecil People’s scorecards). It really doesn’t mean what a lot of people seem to think it means.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how dare those judges agree with each other!!?

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You guys though I was making this split decision stuff up the other day.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Round three is the most contentious with, in my opinion, Diego getting the better of the striking and Guida getting top control late (after escaping a Sanchez back mount attempt) but not doing much damage or any positional advances.

In what way did Diego win the stand up in the third round, Clay landed the only real shots of that round plus got the takedown and some gnp the third was clearly Guida just like the second.

Like I said in the other thread, this wasn’t a robbery this was armed robbery with assault. Clay showed he’s a top 5 LW and beat Diego I don’t give a fuck what these refs say. I swear the only time i’ve ever been as pissed off by a decision was also against Diego in the Karo fight. I still don’t know how he won that fight but he must have someone on the take for him to keep getting these wins you can only get lucky so much.

by Raker on Jun 21, 2009 12:52 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Penn, Florian, Aoki, Alvarez, Cavalcante, Maynard, Thompson are just a few who would beat Clay.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Guida has already beaten Thompson and would work Alvarez, Cavalcante and Maynard like he did Diego the only lw’s right now that I would favor against him are Penn and Florian and depending on how they look I might change my mind.

by Raker on Jun 21, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maynard is Guida with better everything and more size. He would beat Alvarez and Cavalcante (and leave pieces of Aoki in the mat).

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll have to watch it again, but I didn’t see Clay outstriking Diego whatsoever.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

in the third, he did.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No chance. Guida punches with zero intent. His hair makes him look more active than he really is. I could argue any side of any fighter out there except Guida. I can’t defend the guy. He is the guy that made the high school baseball team cause he runs out ground balls.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's Eric Byrnes?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because fuck that guy, right? Fuck people that don’t just coast on talent and wouldn’t be where they are had they not worked their ass off? Let’s all worship BJ Penn.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it was a close fight that could have gone either way but we all knew if it was close that sanchez would get the decision but i totaly agree with mike fagan 2 guys like these with there skill sets the fight should have been a 5 round fight, 3 very close rounds just arent enough to find out who the better man is most of the time. I believe veterans who fight eachother with plenty of fights on their record should be able to fight 5 round fights, I also am split on the idea that championship fight should go 7 rounds!

by jcmeklohobbs on Jun 21, 2009 12:53 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

IMHO

Amateur fights should be 3 five minutes rounds, normal fights should be 5, championships should be 7.

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can get behind this.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you know the % of times 5 round fights go over 3 rounds?

Just curious on the timing aspects and how many fights we’d be guaranteed to get per broadcast. because they’d have to plan around the possibility of getting 25 minute fights. Right now they usually schedule for roughly 85 minutes (1 title, 4 non title = total of 17 rounds) If you book a card with a title fight that could go 7 rounds (35 minutes) you have 50 minutes left which could fit 2 non-title fights.

If this makes any sense

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well 70% of fights get finished before round 3. I’d have to go look up title fights in particular, but you’re loking at such a small sample size, it would really mean anything.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And while I’m on board for 7 round title fights, I’m really more concerned with the 5 round non-title fight.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It really makes no sense at all.

Length of fights should be negotiable, like they are in boxing. A belt being on the line should be a factor, but not the only one.

It makes no sense that all title fights are 5 rounds in mma. It makes no sense that Joe Blow vs Cletus fighting for the Backyard Cage Fighting Championship gets to go 5 rounds while UFC main eventers go 3.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True...but while small it is also the only possible sample size for right now.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And you can't disregard...

that guys would have to pace themselves more knowing that they’re POSSIBLY going 25 minutes every time out

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

so maybe...

that reduces that 70% number.

All just things to think about

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, you also have to consider that title fights generally are contested between two highly and/or equally skilled guys which will intuitively decrease the finish rate.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True...true...

Personally my stance is 3 round fights for standard fights. ALL main events 5 round regardless of title status

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that, not every fight deserves 5 rounds but main events should be different whether there is a title on the line or not. Non Title main events normally have major title implications and are almost always important fights.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m with ya there. Unless of course a TUF Finale is headlined by two TUFers from that show.

"Japan panics about the rise of "grass-eating men," who shun sex, don’t spend money, and like taking walks."

Did they all get married?

- Ubernoober

by SamCupitt on Jun 21, 2009 4:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was thje only conclusion I came to after this event:
Dan Henderson/Wanderlei vs Rich Franklin, Diego vs Guida, Mark Coleman vs Shogun Rua , but those could have been greater fights with most probably some finishes, and all those athletes can go 5 rounds.

by spectaa on Jun 21, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t like the idea of saying 5 rounds for main events, because that would be like a special rule for the UFC. The main event of Wargods is not the same as the main event of a UFC. Just like a Wargods title fight shouldn’t be treated like a UFC title fight just because the winner of each fight gets a belt.

If the promoter and the fighters want the fight to be 5 rounds, and the commission thinks the fighters have enough skill to go 5 rounds, it should be a 5 round fight.

Fighter skill should determine the length of a fight, not place on a card or the existence of a belt.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i think we need to slow down with pushing all of these 5 round fights. We would lose 2-3 fights per PPV card, and it would be painful watching some fights like Sherk from 2-3 years ago, etc. 3 rounds of that is enough, seeing lay-n-pray for 5 rounds would certainly cause people to lose interest in the sport. I think more sensible is a re-match down the road at some point. Let them both fight someone else next, then maybe in a fight or 2 they go at it again. Unfortunately it could end up like Bonner-Griffin 2, which really couldn’t live up the hype of the 1st fight no matter what they did, but I would be pissed paying $55 for a PPV and only getting 3-4 fights, especially if you had some fights on the card that did not utilize the 5 rounds.

by mo dogg on Jun 21, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know that 70% of MMA fights are finished before round 3, right?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alright, but I do think a percent of that is because they are 3 round fights. If you boost everything to 5 rounds, I am guessing the percent of first round KO’s would go down significantly. It could lean to boxing and the guys could spend the first round simply feeling eachother out, knowing they have 4 more rounds to win 3 of the 4 in case they lose. It would certainly be great for some fights, but I could see some really frustrating fights too that would be drawn out 5 rounds.

by mo dogg on Jun 21, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think it would go down significantly.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Generally speaking, boring fighters are going to be boring whether its 3, 5, or 7 rounds. You can still have 36 minutes of boxers leaning on each other, which is just as boring as 35 minutes of lay-n-pray IMO. But it gives the talented fighters the time they deserve.

What I am worried about is losing fights on my PPV’s though :/

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

35 minutes?

It would be okay for some of the smaller ones (Torres could go a couple hundred probably), but some of the big guys would just be gassed for another two rounds.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is a robbery in boxing? Here’s a hint – it’s not a decision that you merely disagree with. It’s a decision that is impossible; that there’s no reasonable way the judges could have scored the fight in favor of the fighter who actually won.

     I strongly disagree with that definition of a robbery. To me, if I think a fighter has won a fight and does not receive a win then it is a robbery. Now, there are different degrees of robbery of course from the disputable to the insane. If Guida was announced the victor I would have said Diego got robbed but that’s not what happened.
     In basketball fouls are always hotly debated after a game. Should a baseball fan have the right to say their team got robbed if replay shows that one of their runners was called out when they were safe. Clottey got robbed too (IMO) but life goes on and of course I admit it was a close fight. But in my mind, if a voter wins 50.1 of the vote, while the opponent wins 49.9, 50.1>49.9 so anything short of a win for Candidate A is a robbery.

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 1:00 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I feel Clay won the fight

But robbery is the wrong word to use. I never used it. Round three is a judgment call that I give to Guida and I am stingy as fuck about my 10-8 rounds (Lesnar/Herring was an anomaly for a reason, folks).

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:04 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why so stingy?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just think it’s got to be a real ass-beating – a knockdown followed up with five minutes of grappling domination, a stand up round where you drop a guy at least twice (since dropping him once is pretty much an automatic 10-9). I look to precedent there – Mir didn’t get 10-8 rounds for absolutely piecing up Nog, nor did Herring for nearly kicking Nog’s head off.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm the same way...

a 10-8 round isn’t a “dominant round” it takes more than that

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, that's kind of beside the point.

How does the UFC define it?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They don’t.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

so they leave it up to the judge individual discretion, offering no guidance?

So perhaps the crime/perpetuator here is ill-defined scoring?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, the athletic commissions define the scoring procedures.

From NSAC:

1. Each judge of a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts that is being judged shall score the contest or exhibition and determine the winner through the use of the following system:

     (a) The better unarmed combatant of a round receives 10 points and his opponent proportionately less.

     (b) If the round is even, each unarmed combatant receives 10 points.

     © No fraction of points may be given.

     (d) Points for each round must be awarded immediately after the end of the period of unarmed combat in the round.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It isn't up to the ufc...

it’s up to the state athletic commission which want judges to score it based on overall dominance in the round. I’m just saying that it takes more than “simply dominating” it takes a clear round where one fighter is extremely effective to the other fighters complete lack of effectiveness

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 21, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that makes sense.

but judging by what Mike Fagan posted above, the parameters are pretty ill-defined, which is the reason for three judges, I suppose.

All in all, I disagree with the outcome, but I don’t think it’s terribly unjustified. I could see Sanchez winning a split decision.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“five minutes of grappling domination”

That’s a lot of action to fill a round.

As for your examples, Mir probably deserved a 10-8, and I don’t know how you could possibly give Herring one since he was controlled for the other 4:30 of the round.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is a lot of action to fill a round – but that’s what I think you need for a 10-8. Lesnar did it, I think Mir should’ve been up 20-16 after two rounds, and based on how rare they are, I didn’t think Diego earned one in the first.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was pointing out that it’s nigh impossible to land a knockdown and then grapple for five minutes.

I think you’re 10-8 criteria is too strict, tbh.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It may be. I’m also a dick about your/you’re, but not right now.

I feel like I’ve been impressed enough to give a 10-8 before and I hold future fights to the same standard.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

http://www.fightmetric.com/blog/2007/11/10-8-rounds-reality-check.html

FightMetric says less than 4% (which I assume means somewhere between 3 and 4 percent) of fights have been scored 10-8. You said earlier you base your distribution of 10-8’s on precedence, but I’d assume you’re hand them out more near 1% given your description of your stinginess.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think your link just convinced me

that Sanchez won rd. 1, 10-9…

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How so?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, there's this:
Scoring a round 10-8 is not something to take lightly in a three round fight, as demonstrated in the FightMetric report released today on the match between Tito Ortiz and Forrest Griffin. To do so means that the fighter who received eight points must dominate or end the fight if he wants to win. If all he can do is win the other two rounds by typical margins, the best he can hope for is a draw.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t read that as saying you need to be careful in giving out 10-8 rounds. Just that the nature of a three round fight can make it an uphill battle for the round loser.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You gotta ask what’s more impressive – beating the shit out of someone for five minutes, or solidly beating them over the next ten?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK, but let’s say Diego Sanchez is Caol Uno and Spencer Fisher is Clay Guida and substitute round one of Sanchez/Guida for round three of Uno/Fisher. Uno still deserves to lose that fight?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kind of a theoretical question here...

What happens if a Fighter A gets 3 knockdowns in the first 5 minutes and Fighter B gets 1 knockdown in each of the next 2 rounds.

Assume only those 5 strikes happened in the entire fight and nothing else happened.

Who should win that fight?

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I give it to B.

He survived, battled back and was the better fighter for a longer time.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if A instead spread out his three knockdowns over three rounds, he wins the fight 30-29? Weird.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s round by round. One guy won one, the other guy won two. I didn’t write the damn rules, I just try to figure out who won by them.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

A blew his load early

And then lost two rounds. Can’t give him the fight.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I simply haven’t seen a lot of them. I’d be happy to evaluate some and score them. I’ve seen more dominant rounds than the one Diego turned in that were scored 10-9 – thus, I score his 10-9.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll see if I can get some info from FightMetric.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you should write a post of 10-8 rounds. Ones that you think should have been/shouldn’t have been.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would require a ridiculous amount of time that I don’t have.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Send me the rounds and data and I’ll try to make it all purty like

twister823@aol.com

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

get ready to change your sig subo..

picking clay.. then picking hamill.. bad moveeeeeeeeeee. haha.

by Anton Tabuena on Jun 21, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You haven’t even come up with one for me yet. Hamill by caveman beatdown. Hey, how’d that Munoz pick work out for you? Matt ‘The Flip Killer’ Hamill

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well i overestimated munoz's striking there..

but the way i predicted how hamill will fight was dead on.. he will get picked apart by a superior striker any day..

i wrote this in the other thread

Change your sig to "weoweoweo is the best… and I <3 Vera cause he is pogi.."

It’s nothing degrading or insulting, but it would give some laughs to those who understand. :)

Pogi=good looking/handsome

Fair enough? Loser sticks that sig on until the next two Numbered UFC events end, or if a new sig bet is made. Ok?

by Anton Tabuena on Jun 21, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And you’ll settle for


I, for one, miss our American occupiers and wish they’d never left

?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What are some other 10-8 rounds you’ve seen?

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by themachiavellian on Jun 21, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One of the rounds of Faber/Jens I was close… not even Machida-Evans round one, in which Evans did n-o-t-h-i-n-g, makes it for me. I could probably stand to loosen my standards there a bit, but it fucks shit up – you give a guy a 10-8 round, you’re saying ‘holy shit, I’m surprised he survived, as long as you don’t get finished you won’t lose this fight’.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By not handing out 10-8s more liberally, you in turn are saying that round 1 of Guida/Sanchez is worth the same as round 3 even though Sanchez clearly dominated round 1 more than Guida did rounds 2 and 3 combined.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I wish judges would score more rounds 10-10 for the same logic.

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely agree with this. There are too many rounds that could go either way to specifically give fighters a 10-9 edge.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you know, it's strange,

I’ve always taken the rules to be that someone must win each round. The little bit that Goldberg does before the fight suggests that. No?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know why they explain it that way. But to be a technical asshole, he never says there has to be only 1 winner and one loser.

10-10 rounds are allowed.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But it does sound like someone has to win and someone has to lose, doesn't it?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

in the UFC yes, in Japan no.
I remember watching a Sengoku fight where judges scored the fight 30-29 (i.e. 10-10 rounds)

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It sounds like it, but that isn’t actually the case.

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m saying that, in a five minute round, someone wins, and winning two rounds by a little is more important than winning one round by a lot – especially if that one round is the first round.

Even if you give Diego a 10-8 in round one, I have Guida winning the next two, and that would be a draw. The judges saw the third as 10-9 Diego, which I disagree with but is not a robbery. 10-8s are hard to get out of me – I’m more impressed with the guy that wins two rounds.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some rounds have more action than others. That’s why it’s important to utilize 10-8 and 10-10 rounds as effectively as possible. Otherwise the 10-point must system starts to break down.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh hey what do you know subo is wrong again!

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another wonderful contribution to the discussion. One judge had it the way I did, so did the guy that ran the live blog (Brent).

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

how come whenever you’re wrong you look for other people who are also wrong to support your case?

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You don’t know me very well if you think I’m afraid to say someone on the staff is wrong.

by George Lucas on Jun 21, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Recd for

use of the word “wiener”.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m really surprised people thought it was close. I thought Diego clearly won. In fact if Guida hadn’t gotten a takedown I may have scored RD 1 10-7 Sanchez. Guida got absolutely demolished in RD 1. The rest of the fight was razor close.

I had it 10-8, 9-10, 10-9 for 29-27 Sanchez. Yes Guida scored some takedowns but often didn’t do anything with them and in some instances Sanchez was doing extremely well off his back with elbows to the head and submission attempts.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

how did you give Sanchez round three?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a pretty lazy round first of all. From my notes Sanchez had the better of the striking exchanges. Guida did get top control at one point but did nothing with it while merely defending a kimura attempt from Sanchez. Maybe it was 10-10? I’m bad at giving draw rounds.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Sanchez won the rd. 3 striking.

You keep a count?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you think Guidas striking was more decisive than Sanchez’s groundwork in the third?

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Volume isn’t part of the criteria, I don’t believe.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, okay, damage, then.

Sanchez didn’t hurt him at all in 3, either, did he? I thought Guida connected on a couple in three.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sanchez went for an arm-triangle too. That has to be factored in somehow too

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How?

Why do failed submission attempts get more credit than missed strikes? What’s the difference?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

b/c chokes have the potential to finish the fight, unless you think all strikes are capable of ending the fight. Arm flailing and connecting with no power behind them is akin to tickling them

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And a half assed kimura while a guy is on top of you is better?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only reason they were on the ground was because of Diego’s arm triangle.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you have to draw a line somewhere, they all shouldn’t be counted, but some should count for something.

I would count the arm triangle as something positive for sanchez, but not any of his armbar attempts in round 3. The arm triangle was actually locked in (or looked locked in) for a second, so that should count for something.

But not all submission attempts should be scored equally (or at all).

by Phildo on Jun 21, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, so if we factor in failed submissions,

why do we not factor in defense of submission attempts?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Should you get points for slipping punches?

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My head hurts.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You need to work on slipping punches then.

A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.

by iiowyn on Jun 21, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do think about it to some extent. But since they shouldn’t have gotten into trouble in the first place I usually give a bit more credit to the aggressor.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Failed chokes don’t end squat though, a submission attempt should only score points if it actually was close not every time a guy grabs a arm or throws up a leg from guard or grabs a guy around the neck on a takedown attempt. This is really something that should be a judgement, not every submission attempt should score points and some of the more foolhardy attempts should cost guys points.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well for one thing submission attempts take more work to set up than just throwing wild strikes and missing.

Also for failed chokes the defender will often have to use a lot of energy to get out thus I think that should be factored in.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

On a lot of submission attempts the guy going for the submission ends up in a worse position after the attempt, why should a fighter get points for losing position and failing to get a submission?

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I consider a reversal something completely different than just a failed submission attempt.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Going for a heel hook doesn’t require a reversal to end up in a worse position. Lots of times guys go for submissions and nor only fail they end up in a worse position, I wouldn’t think a fighter should ever get any points for a submission attempt unless it was a honest to goodness “he nearly got him with that one” attempt, because unless it’s close to a finish it’s just throwing up stuff hoping to catch someone, same as punches.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yeah a reversal is way more impressive than 99% of failed submission attempts.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Missed strikes don’t make you red in the face and make it hard to breathe, chokes do.

by Zack Gobie on Jun 21, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How about a horeshit failed heel hook? Points for that? Even if you gave up favorable position to try a move that DIDN’T WORK?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But that choke wasn’t horseshit, Guida was red in the face and it was close to finishing the fight. That’s the difference to me.

by Zack Gobie on Jun 21, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would agree with that but a lot of the stuff Diego was throwing up was just him throwing stuff up, I would of scored for the choke and maybe the Kimura attempt but the rest was just him staying busy.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It takes far more skill for a submission attempt. It takes no skill to strike and miss.

by cyph on Jun 21, 2009 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How much skill does it take to fail to submit someone?

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In order to perform a submission, you have to be in an advantageous position; The opponent has to be on the defense and be in a precarious position. Are you seriously comparing a missed punch with a failed submission attempt? Come on now.

by cyph on Jun 21, 2009 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No I am trying to make a point as to where you draw the line because I don’t see where a submission attempt in and of itself is worth that much, unless you get close to locking it in or you use it to your advantage to force a positional change your just staying busy. Do you think that every time a guy in guard throws up his legs for a triangle he should get points or should he only get points when he actually comes close to locking one in and finishing with it?

Everyone wants to compare it to a punch but that is comparing apples and oranges. I’d compare it more to closely takedown attemps, do guys score for takedown attemps, even good attempts or do they just score when they actually accomplish something with it? Yes you can’t finish just off a takedown attempt but then how many submission attempts actually work? It’s a comparison of skill move to skill move.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 3:18 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are submission attempts, and then there are submission attempts. An attempt that is brushed off is like a missed takedown. This is not what I mean. What Diego did in the third is what I called submission attempt, the ones that are closed to a lock. Guida was in trouble and if he made one mistake, it would have been over.

Your definition of a submission attempt is not the same as mine. A submission attempt is one where the other guy is in trouble. If it was a video game, you’d have to tap all buttons and roll your stick to get out of it. That’s where Sanchez put Guida in his submission attempts. =)

by cyph on Jun 21, 2009 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What the definition of an attempt is would also be one of the things that is an issue here because people don’t agree(I agree with your definition as far as what is worth a judges notice, that is the point I was making). You have to draw a line somewhere because not every attempt at a submission is actually worth noting and everyone has different ideas as to what “submission attempt” means. Unless you strictly define what scores and what doesn’t then you just lead to more confusion and MMA rules already have enough of that.

Of course as I have already commented on lower in the discussion what any of our definitions are is just internet talk it’s what they judges think that actually matters and it does seem that a lot of times what the judges are thinking is hard to comprehend.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If your definition of “submission attempt” isn’t “any time a fighter attempts a submission” you should probably lay out in detail what you are actually talking about.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I replied too high up where no one is reading so I am reposting since the convo is here now

I thought Clay was getting the better in the stand up slightly in the third. I scored the round for Diego because he had three submission attempts to end the round. The first attempt ended up with Diego on the bottom, but Guida did no damage and ended up defending against Diego’s kimura the majority of the time of the ground. To top it off Diego switched to an armbar attempt and was in the process of standing up as the bell rang. I really think the ground portion of the third round sealed the deal for Diego. Guida’s striking wasn’t decisive enough but Diego completely controlled the action on the ground.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How? none of those submission ever came close to tapping Guida, I love this idea that if you throw up enough submissions people score them like they did something. Clay has become very tough to submit and uses his opponents attempts to get better position and explode with gnp when he gets out them. Diego got controlled whenever they were on the ground, at no time was he in trouble on the ground and everytime he got out of a submission attempt Diego got punched in the face by Guida.

by Raker on Jun 21, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why do wrestlers get takedowns scored so heavily while submission attempts get nothing? I don’t remember guida throwing a single punch while on the ground at the end portion of the third. Guida was spending all his energy defending.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Takedowns change position. Subs don’t.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Changing positions is just that.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Subo likes his position control in his scoring.

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I sure do

If you get into a fight at a bar and you get tackled and sat on, guess what? You lost.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or you get taken down, grab guard and take no damage until the bouncer pulls the guy off of you and you take no damage and walk away in one piece.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So does he – and he took you down. He still won.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you take no damage in a bar fight I consider that a win. But this is MMA so I am done with your bar fight scenerio.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you both win?

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I had a guy jump me, was on top the whole time. I had some scratches on my neck. He lost 4 teeth and needed 70 stitches. According to you i lost that fight.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not really. That would be an exception to the general rule that you don’t win rounds from your back.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

How many times does someone score a takedown and the guy pops right back up and people score it like a knockdown? But sub attempts get nothing? That is so lame,

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right...

Unless you can still bust his head open from the bottom…

If he’s on top, but I shred his face up with elbows, do I still lose?

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It makes me mad that takedowns equal points. To me, while Diaz clearly lost, it was one of the closest unanimous decisions I could think of. He thwarted every submission and he tried for some of his own. He was constantly trying for positional change. He was always moving. Diaz to me put up a better fight than Guida did.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was a close fight, but Diaz lost every round. Guida didn’t.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One position is better than the other. The only time you don’t give points for position is when they’re both standing.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s a good thing that baseball doesn’t reward teams with wins for having runners in scoring position. Or the NFL giving teams automatic points for being in the red zone. This to me is a perfect analogy for MMA and takedowns.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t mean to single you out, but people really need to stop referring to actions in a fight as “scoring points” unless you’re literally tallying up each event on a piece of paper.

Anyway, “positional control” to me is passing guard and maintaining a dominant position. Sitting in guard doesn’t do anything for me unless you’re outstriking/outworking your opponent. And if he’s outstriking/outworking you, you’re gonna lose the round all other things being equal. While the guard slightly favors the guy on top, it’s still generally a 50/50 position on its own.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that greatly depends on the fighter, though.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, and there’s plenty of fighter combinations where the guy pulling guard is in a much better position than the guy on top. The point is, overall, as a position, it’s a very neutral position.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Generalities aside,

fighter on top between Guida and Sanchez should favor Guida, right?

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See below, it doesn’t matter.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not about who's better

It’s about what opportunities you have in that position. If fighter A is a terrible striker and fighter B is a K-1 level striker, does that make the feet any less even?

by Zack Gobie on Jun 21, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I completely disagree

When you are on your back, you are at a disadvantage. You can finish the fight from there, but you cannot outscore your opponent – even implying being in control when you’re on your back means that you’re sitting there and not advancing YOUR position even though your opponent’s is better. It would be stalling to win a fight from your back – why not advance to a better position?

This argument comes about every time a wrestler wins a round without murdering a guy. Position scores points.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if Demian Maia has Ed Herman in his guard and his working all sorts of sub attempts, strikes, and just generally stifles Herman who does literally nothing, Herman still takes the round?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I hate that you used those two fighters, but yes – a failed submission attempt counts against a fighter in my eyes, not for him. That was an attempt to finish the fight (and, in most cases, an abandonment of position) that failed. Why do you get more points for that than not trying the sub and waiting for a better chance?

I just don’t think you can win decisions from your back. The exception I can think of is locking in a triangle and just assaulting a guy with elbows for minutes on end, then the round ends. That is it.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So do you get points from being on top and trying the submission?

And you just said elbows from the bottom should count. That’s what Sanchez did.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not the entire round, and they were exchanging blows.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously it’s very difficult to win a round off your back, but making absolute statements like this is, in my opinion, a huge flaw in your judging criteria.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough. I think you give guard too much credit – it’s not a bad position, you can be active and win fights from it, but if you’re in it the whole fight, you’re losing in my eyes. It’s called ‘guard’ for a reason – it’s a defensive posture against an aggressor on top of you.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nick Diaz was more active on the bottom against a black belt than Guida was against Sanchez from top position.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not giving the guard too much credit. I think it’s incredibly hard to win off your back and I haven’t been one that’s arguing that Sanchez won round 2 or 3 off his back. I just think it’s bad to say it’s impossible.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s not fair to say, “You were on your back, you automatically lose.”

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 2:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you send me a round where you think a guy won from the bottom and I’ll take a peek. Again, I grant the premise, but this just ain’t one of those times.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve never said it was, I’m just arguing the idea.

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t come here to argue.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have a question, how do judo throws factor into your decision making. If a guy throws his opponent at least 5 times(hard) and the guy keeps getting up vs. say 1 takedown that is holding the guy down. Which is the more favorable scenario?

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are so many examples of legitimate ground and pound, I just don’t see how you give Guida points for being on top.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

?
I was talking about how judo throws should be factored in(taking positional control standing—>ground) but yes I wouldn’t give points to Guida for having top control

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wasn’t arguing against you, I just adding to the post above.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

it’s hard to tell b/c the replies have been squished together. I’ve never seen a post fight have so many comments. But with such an epic fights I say YES!

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hughes/Serra. Round 2, Hughes clearly was doing damage from top. But round 3, he didn’t do anything but it essentially allowed him to get the decision.

I just think you have to judge every situation independently.

by RollinOnShabbos on Jun 21, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any

fight where a fighter on the bottom subs the guy in the mount.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the fighter on bottom submits the guy on top then how the judges score the fight becomes irrelevant because the fight would be over. Obviously the goal should be to win it straight out instead of putting it in the judges hands.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You need

sub attempts before anyone will ever get subbed. Just like punches lead to KOs, sub attempts lead to subs and should be scored accordingly.

by Riney on Jun 21, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

As has been discussed here already how do you define sub attempts that score points then? Should every guy who throws up his legs for a triangle be scoring points for it? Comparing it to punching doesn’t work because it’s two completly different things.

Just attempting a sub is worthless unless you actually get close enough for it to meaningfully make a difference in the fight. They aren’t like punches where a number of weak shots can wear a guy down a sub either works or it doesn’t, heck a failed sub attempt can weaken the attacker more than the defender. You can’t say a sub attempt is like a punch because it’s not even close to the same thing, you have to base it on it’s own criteria as far as being judged in a fight.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That logic cuts right to the core of one of the big issues with this (or any other) discussion about this kind of stuff.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

At least your method is consistent.

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by themachiavellian on Jun 21, 2009 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Some fighters WANT to be in guard

Some grapplers are so good that they want to be in guard because they know they can school their opponent there. I don’t think a fighter should be severely penalized for being in a “defense posture” unless he gets beat up there.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those fighters have to be aware than MMA judges do tend to score for the guy on top though just because that’s how things currently work.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you know the judges tend to score it that way and yet you still remain in that position then honestly who is to blame? We can argue could ofs and should ofs till the cows come home but lets get right to the point yes most MMA judges will score the round for the guy on top and if your the guy on bottom you better damn well be aware of that and not let it happen to you.

The fighters fight in the world as it stands not the way we think it should be and if your on your back then yes most judges will score for the other fighter, that isn’t even up for debate because we see it happen all the time. Argueing whether it’s wrong or right (or whether the judges are nuts) is a completly different subject but we all know how it actually works whether we like it or not.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is only because judges are stupid and don’t give people working off their backs any credit. Have you ever rolled? People good off their back can make you go into total defense mode even though you are on top.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

True...

There are quite a few people out there who prefer working from their back.

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And if Fighter A is the on the bottom and landing elbows, while Fighter B is on top and simply holding holding Fighter A down, would you still score it for Fighter B.

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"When you are on your back, you are at a disadvantage."

Don’t get into this mindset. This is like saying the only way to have a successful team in the NFL is to use a quarterback. Sure it’s what everyone does and has become accepted but it’s not the only way.

We shouldn’t turn MMA into a bunch of generalizations like “oh when you’re on your back it’s bad” especially when we have seen many fighters win fights, deal damage, land strikes, etc from their back.

by zacd on Jun 21, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

‘This mindset’ are the Unifed Rules – which say position matters. Guard is a defensive position – it is not a desirable one, and you’re not going to accrue points for position while fighting from it.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So if Fighter A literally lays on Fighter B whilst in his guard while Fighter B throws 5 million elbows to the Fighter A’s crown…Fighter A wins on position?

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

to Fighter A’s*

http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Jun 21, 2009 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that’s one of those rare examples where a large advantage in striking can make up for a disadvantage in position.

I really need some examples here. I can’t think of an example of a guy winning a round from his back without finishing the fight.

by subo on Jun 21, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Submission attempts are attempts to finish a fight. Hardly anyone ever finishes a fight by laying in someones guard and thowing hammerfists and lazy punches. Sometimes significant shots are landed in guard, but overall submission attempts are more dangerous even if they don’t result in damage to your opponent.

However, in MMA these attempts are overlooked way too often. Diegos failed kimura led into a failed armbar attempt which gave Diego the chance to stand at the end of round three. Diego used his submission to gain a positional advantage.

by Dropkick434 on Jun 21, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would think that example would count in the fact that Diego improved his position but not for the submission itself that wasn’t even close to a point of finishing a fight. This has to be a judgement call because if you started awarding points to every guy who throws up his legs for a triangle then you would have pure insanity, a submission attempt should only score if it was very close to ending the fight or if it was used to improve a fighters position, there were examples of both in the Diego fight but there were also numerous examples of attempts that accounted for no more than just Diego staying busy.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clay on top in his arm in a kimura is not too offensive of a position....

ditton for the head and arm choke…

If you have no offense with an offensive position, it doesn’t earn you points…

If you’re on top, and you eat a hundred elbows, and answer back with a fem hammer punches and hair-smothering…. it shouldn’t earn you points if you aren’t doing the same amount of damage…

falling into a submission after missing a takedown does not earn you points…

etc.

by Loot on Jun 21, 2009 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Which is why it’s prety obvious that Clay didn’t win the third round on two of the three judges scorecards, he didn’t get the takedown in the third he went down in a choke and then he spent the rest of the time fighting off the Kimura attempt and Diego transitioned that to being able to get up, the choke and the kimura were moves that had a real affect on the fight so yea those would score as submission attempts but not every “attempt” should score because most attempts don’t go anywhere or accomplish anything.

As far as the elbows from the bottom yes if you do all the striking then you may win from the bottom but they don’t score that as a neutral position they score it as top control so you would have to utterly dominate from the bottom with the guy doing nothing at all but covering up. The guy on top is putting his weight on guy on bottom and controlling the positiion. I wouldn’t mind to see judges better informed about that position but it’s pretty obvious how they score it currently.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i dont mind losing a fight or 2 of lower teir matchups to the undercard and off of the main ppv card as long as the 5 round matchups or 7 round championship matchups are good solid fights. To often lately good quality matchups that should have and could have gone 4 or 5 rounds have ended after 3 rounds with no definitive winner ala franklin vs. henderson or franklin vs. silva or davis vs. hardy and i could go on and on naming fights where the extra rounds really wouldve given us what we pay to see and that is a definitive winner and great fights

by jcmeklohobbs on Jun 21, 2009 1:18 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Watching it the first time with a group of people and without an eye toward the score cards, I had Sanchez winning all three rounds. I’ll have to watch it again, though.

Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

by Richard Wade on Jun 21, 2009 1:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

thankful records are not as important as they are in boxing

I think another thing a fight like this shows is that we should be thankful that MMA, and maybe specifically, didn’t inherit the emphasis on records while they were growing. Boxing has always had these guys who don’t get to a bigger card until they are 35-0, 40-1, things like that (i could be wrong, but when i was into boxing years ago i believe that was the case), and thankfuly MMA has been able to avoid that where a fight like this will help Guida, and not hurt him just because he lost.

by mo dogg on Jun 21, 2009 1:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think Randy Couture’s record illustrates this the best.

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Regardless, it was a hell of a fight.

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 1:48 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Look how many articles and replies this fight generated compared to the replies to the articles on other fights on the card. These two guys tore the roof off the place.

by who me on Jun 21, 2009 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got to stop staying up till 2am reading blogs :/

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 2:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

agrd.

though you guys are significantly differnet than my usual crowd…

I think [the A's announcers] just speak in code.. "A tough outing again for Brett Anderson" means "Has anyone checked with his 2nd grade teacher to see if maybe he’s actually right-handed?" --Nico

by Leopold Bloom on Jun 21, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I enjoyed the debate. Change of pace from watching Timmy go TIMBERRRRRRR.

by Sokonojudo on Jun 21, 2009 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Was Guida on Cocaine or something? I’ve seen his past four or five fights and know him to be energetic, but it would go a looong way towards explaining his cardio.

by JAYGK95 on Jun 21, 2009 2:13 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

He stole Diego’s Stevia.

by EnsignFrog on Jun 21, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This fight was so fucking Epic even with that trademark shitty laynpray 2nd rd by Guida where he took 100 elbows to his noggin. I lmao when my friend said damn Diego won that round from the bottom.

Props to Guida for the chin and heart but thats about it, “homie”. Time for a new camp.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, growing up as a child Kimbo Slice was never given any bread with his meals. This is why he insists people... give him his bread."

by xFenixKnightx on Jun 21, 2009 2:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Diego did cut guida wide open from the bottom.

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