How Monte Cox Ran Tim Sylvia's Career Into the Ground
Tim Sylvia's humiliating loss to Ray Mercer is mostly being discussed in terms of its meaning for Tim's seriously damaged career as a fighter. Not only does this loss brutally damage Sylvia's brand as a top MMA fighter, but in the immediate brass tacks sense, it will probably deprive him of a very nice payday at Affliction Trilogy. The next (and probably final) Affliction show. That's because the California State Athletic Commission will likely not license Sylvia to fight so soon after a brutal KO loss and rightfully so.
It's sad what has happened to Tim Sylvia's career and reputation, but the point that should be discussed is the absolutely awful career management Tim has been getting from Monte Cox.
Monte Cox has a massive conflict of interest as the promoter behind Adrenaline MMA and the manager of several fighters, including Tim Sylvia. Clearly in this case he did not put Tim's interests before his own as the promoter.
If I can quote myself from a few months back when the Sylvia-Mercer fight was announced:
This is pathetic on so many levels. Poor Tim Sylvia, Monte Cox has really painted him into a corner. First he convinced Tim to ask to be released from the UFC where he had had two title runs. Then he was going to headline Adrenaline shows that didn't happen. Then he got paid $800,000 to get demolished by Fedor....
Well, Monte hasn't been all bad to Tim, but let's face facts, when you make $800,000 to get destroyed in 0:36, you've basically taken a big one time cash payment in lieu of a future in MMA.
With his anti-charismatic persona and his long string of cautious, tentative and tedious performances as UFC champ, has to be the formidable athlete with the least brand equity of anyone in MMA.
I would also be remiss if I didn't mention that Sam Caplan was completely correct when he said:
Despite Mercer’s MMA inexperience, he still poses a unique threat to Sylvia. While the heavy-handed Slice felt it was prudent to take Mercer off his feet, Sylvia is not known for taking fights to the ground and instead may attempt to trade punches with a professional boxer that was good enough to win a Gold medal at the 1988 Olympic Games in Seoul, South Korea.
At the time I jumped all over Sam, but time will tell and its clear that Sam had a very good point about Ray Mercer and the threat he presented to Tim Sylvia.
However, as long as we're reviving old quotes, let's look at what Big Tim was saying when he quit the UFC to sign with Adrenaline:
"I'll be real active, fighting six or seven times a year," Sylvia said. "Adrenaline is a new company that's just starting up, but they're allowing fighters to fight outside of their organization. That's huge... Take for instance my last fight. Granted, I loss, but I came out of there unhurt and unscathed. I could have fought a week or two later.
"Being 32 years old, I have four or five good years ahead of me. I plan to make the most of it."
And here's what Cox had to say about his plans for Adrenaline:
"It's a chance for me to build an organization," Cox said. "We're not going to come in and be the UFC. Anyone who tries to do that is crazy.
"We're brand new. What we want to do is I want to identify exciting fighters, up-and-coming fighters, and give them a chance to perform on a big stage. And hopefully, we'll gather a big following and someday down the road be doing pay-per-views and such."
But a look at the roster of Adrenaline fighters so far shows a lot more Monte Cox affiliated fighters on the tail end of their careers than up and comers. There is also no indication that the promotion is building a following.
Monte still manages a lot of fighters at the top of the sport including Rich Franklin and Matt Hughes. He also manages up and coming star Eddie Alvarez whose career he has so far guided very well. Although I do worry about the decision to sign with Bellator which seems like a high-risk, low reward option for Alvarez.
It should also be noted that Cox is a veteran of the sport and has done a great deal to build MMA as a promoter and manager. All respect to Mr. Cox for what he has accomplished. But let's call a spade a spade and recognize that Tim Sylvia's career nosedive didn't just happen in the ring and the cage, it happened backstage too.
UPDATE: Zach Arnold opines:
We know what kind of damage this will do for Sylvia’s fighting career. What I am more interested in is seeing how much damage Monte Cox has suffered to his reputation for a) the way he’s managed Tim Sylvia in my opinion and b) putting Sylvia in this kind of position against someone like Mercer, who was having to box in Sweden for the last couple of years. My take is that Cox should not go away from this ordeal unscathed. This whole ordeal is a huge stain on him professionally. Everyone will rightfully rip on Tim, but Monte Cox is the one who deserves the biggest spotlight of public shame here.
Alan Conceicao chimes in with a counter position:
I actually disagree, Zach. Monte did a hell of a job getting Sylvia his payday for the Fedor fight. I mean, really, the guy made more in guaranteed money that night than he had in his previous 8 fights combined in the UFC or something crazy like that. The problem is that Sylvia took the stance afterwards that he was a big money fighter and demanding premier matchups instead of recognizing his placement in the sport and rebuilding. He could have gone to Japan or fought on independent shows like a lot of guys had. Hell, I bet he could have gotten on M-1 Challenge with little effort and picked up some easy Ws. Instead, ego got a hold of him and told him that he could be a world class boxer. He looked at the Klitschkos selling out soccer stadiums and thought he should be doing the same. And that’s what put him in this position. Ultimately though, Cox should have done a better job either talking him out of it or refusing to promote the fight and cut his losses with Timmy. No one is blameless. Hell, Ray Mercer is only here because he didn’t take his boxing career seriously enough when he was in his prime and spent all his money. Maybe if Merciless Ray Mercer had spent more time in the gym and less time audibly trying to throw a fight on camera (Jesse Ferguson), none of this would have happened.
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Comments
People over the age of 30 who are not professional fighters should not wear fight t-shirts
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 14, 2009 6:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Same goes with other sports jersey’s and shirts. If you aren’t a member of a professional sports team you shouldn’t wear their jersey’s or shirts.
by dedstrk316 on Jun 14, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pro sports teams’ jerseys aren’t hideous, and they come in sizes large enough to fit fat old guys.
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 14, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh...
I like my sports jerseys
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 14, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was sarcasm
I love my sports jersey’s and supporting my teams and I love wearing my fighter shirts and supporting them. I find it ridiculous that people think that others shouldn’t do such things. If you are fat and old don’t wear them if you don’t like it. I’m middle aged and in great shape so if I feel like wearing and Anderson Silva shirt I’ll wear it. Don’t tell me I shouldn’t as I feel that’s ridiculous.
by dedstrk316 on Jun 14, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a big difference between skulls and dragons and tribal tattoo art on a shirt and wearing a teams jersey.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares?
If the person wearing it likes it what does it matter to you?
by dedstrk316 on Jun 14, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it doesn’t matter to them that I point and laugh when they walk by then more power to them but when some old guy wanders by trying to look hip and young people are going to laugh, if they look like Monte Cox does in that shirt they are going to laugh hard. People judge you by how you dress and look, it’s just a fact of life.
I should point out that I am a old guy myself, I dress for confort not hip style and I’d never buy a $50 t shirt because of what it has printed on it.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know this shirt that doesn’t really suit you but is comfortable, and you don’t give a fuck anyway so you wear it? That’s it, the mma version.
by spectaa on Jun 14, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m wearing a old t shirt from the D-Day museum in New Orleans now, it cost me $12 bucks four years ago and even though it’s coming apart I won’t let my wife toss it because it’s comfortable. A $50 t-shirt better feel like absolute heaven to be worth that much money, I don’t care about how many skeletons riding dragons are printed on the front of it. Of course if you are my age or older and you are wearing a t shirt my 17 year old daughter would think is “da bomb” then both me and her are going to point and laugh at you when you walk by. These shirts aren’t just shirts they are designed to be hip fashion for the hot young crowd, they are a fasion statement, my D-Day museum shirt is just a old blue shirt.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plain white Haynes T-Shirt here...
doesn’t get more comfortable than light, clean cotton ;)
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 14, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you mean nobody should ever wear fight t-shirts, which are an affront to mankind and good graphic design.
by dv8shun on Jun 14, 2009 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Men
should not act like women and worry about other’s fashion sense.
http://www.mma-collective.com/
by schizosmurf on Jun 15, 2009 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Men should not act like women and be overly concerned with their own fashion sense because men are going to laugh at each other regardless.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Men should not act like women and be overly concerned with their own fashion sense
i certainly agree with at least this much
fashion is for nancy boys and women.
http://www.mma-collective.com/
by schizosmurf on Jun 15, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Monte Cox has a massive conflict of interest as the promoter behind Adrenaline MMA and the manager of several fighters, including Tim Sylvia
This pretty much sums it up. The manager is supposed to look out for the best interests of the fighter and the promoter is supposed to act in the interest of the promotion. If a fighter his managed by his promoter, something has to give.
by Andy R on Jun 14, 2009 6:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For Tim Sylvia…. It’s a combination of Cox and Sylvia’s fault. Cox is a horrible promoter. And it seems like he uses his guys way to often to help his own interests more then help their careers. Sylvia is also at fault for coming in at 310 pounds.
For Eddie Alvarez…. Cox has actually done a poor job with him. If he had Alvarez signed with the UFC and he showed the same sort of talent, he would already be on his second contract and on his way towards a title shot. And we all know that the UFC Champions get paid better then anybody else in the sport. Instead, he continues to have him fight outside f the UFC. His fights right now are probably making more then he would as entry level UFC Fighter. However, there isn’t half as much growth.
Then there is Bellator. The show has almost no exposure. He was the only known fighter in the tournament, which means is was all risk. And despite a big purse at the end for winning, he is fighting 3 times in 12 weeks. If the IFL has taught us anything, it is that a hectic schedule like that hurts a fighter in the long run. All of those IFL guys were used and abused by the time the IFL closed shop and they all looked worse for wear. The constant weight cutting, no time off, and the abuse it does to an athletes body is not a good thing for a professional fighter.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 14, 2009 6:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is a lot
of risk in running young fighters into the UFC. They will get 1 tune up fight then onto good competition. They risk octagon exposure and could get cut after being stomped once or twice. I don’t mind the 10-15 fights before the UFC to get some confidence and experience.
by Riney on Jun 14, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think throwing him into a Grand Prix with Kawajiri, Hansen, Aoki, JZ, and others is far worse then anything the UFC can do to him within the first year of competition for the company.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Jun 14, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When
was the last time a fighter was cut after losing a round in the Grand Prix?
by Riney on Jun 14, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think getting Alvarez in the GP was genius
Alvarez was a WW on the rise until he ran into Nick Thompson and got exposed as too small.
The GP was a great way to launch him as a LW and Alvarez performed brilliantly.
Following up with Bellator just makes me wonder how good those DREAM pay days are that they won’t risk them for a UFC deal.
If Toby Imada taps out Eddie like he did Masvidal, we’ll do a 2nd chapter on the malfeasance of Mr. Cox.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 14, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If some guy is a loser charlatan that hoodwinks and deceives and has no plan…
And another guy listens to him and buys what he’s selling hook line and sinker…
Then who’s the bigger idiot?
by subo on Jun 14, 2009 7:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Manager and promoter is a bad idea all around. It’s the same issue Fedor has (although i think Fink does a better job than Monte Cox has been doing lately). Of course when talking about Tim Syliva its always a good idea to remember that we are talking about Tim Sylvia, he’s been a constant stream of “what the hell is he thinking?!” for a while now.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 7:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The fight against Fedor was a smart move. There’s no shame in losing to Fedor and I presume Tim didn’t get a cut of UFC PPV dollars – so that $800K payday made sense.
Monte Cox certainly contributed to Tim’s demise, but let’s not excuse Tim himself. He expected to launch himself into the multi-million dollar paydays of big-time pro boxing by stepping over Ray Mercer. Tim’s ego was way out of control. He obviously didn’t train – otherwise, how the hell could he come in at 310 pounds?
by MMAEruption on Jun 14, 2009 8:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But he, in essence, traded in his career for 1 million bucks. The 800k for Fedor, and it’s generous to think between sponsors for that and whatever the hell happened last night he got another 200k.
If he stayed with the UFC, it might have taken an extra year to make that million, but his career would be in much better shape.
by Phildo on Jun 14, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a million dollars
is a whole bunch of money
"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand
by rockied on Jun 14, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was making 100k/100k on his UFC contract and he only had one fight left on it so he would of undoubtably negotiated for a better/more up to date deal if he had stayed in the UFC. I mean he had just fought Big Nog and earned a lot of respect from a lot of people for a gutsy performance at that time. I think he got jelous of the money Brock Lesnar was getting paid but Tim just never had the fanbase or PPV sales to justify that level of money. From the fight with Nog its been a year and a half, if he’d stayed with the UFC he could of fought at least 4 times(if not more) in that time frame instead of the one Fedor fight and the Ray Mercer joke, not to mention that he is most likely going to miss the next Affliction card now.
Tim traded $800k for multiple UFC fights and the potential of a lucrative new contract with them not to mention all the sponsorship money involved in multiple big fights for the UFC. Does anyone think Tim will get another big payday like that again? Does anyone thing the UFC would give him a new contract at any rate as things stand now? Does anyone think that Tim Sylvia can even make what his old UFC payscale was in the sport from other organizations at this point? He took a risk, if he beat Fedor he would of been a hero but honestly putting your future on line on the chance that you may beat Fedor is a very poor idea. You can almost forgive him for that but honestly what reason was there to fight Ray Mercer at all (besides Ken Shamrock wouldn’t return his phone calls)? If he won he was a joke for fighting a 50 year old man and if he lost he was a joke who committed career suicide. Man I hope he invested that $800k wisely.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
100/100 is 1/4 of the way to what he made against fedor. not to mention he probably would have had to take a pay cut after losing to nog. if he had stayed with the ufc there is no guarantee he makes what he did against fedor. none. he could lose. his knee could blow out. those things happen and the money never appears. he doesnt worry about that with fedor because he knows the money is a done deal. its a no brainer. you take the fedor fight.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would he of had to take a pay cut after losing to Nog? Hell for once people were actually talking positive about his performance, it was that fight that would of got him a pay increase in his next contract. In the short term the $800k was a great deal but at what long term cost to his career? Tim Sylvia wasn’t planning on retiring his publically stated plan was to fight 6 or 7 times a year, he fought twice in the last year and a half and may lose out on the next Affliction show. It’s hard to see where he took a better long term career path with that decision.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the ufc generally has fighters that lose take a paycut. its possible he might not have had to, but then who knows. as for its getting him a pay increase, i cant think of a single fighter in the ufc that lost and got more money as a result. those are two pretty unlikely things happening. he can talk about fighting 6 or 7 times a year but no one does in the ufc and theres no reason to think he would. also unlikely.
and then theres the fact that in order to make 200k he needs to win. he lost to nog, so he got 100. he loses to someone else like cain or carwin and hes not gonna make 200 for that fight, and hes not gonna have the chance to make 100/100 for a long time after. part of that is fact and the other part is much more likely than dana white giving him a pay raise after losing. meanwhile, the fedor fight? well, if he actually won that fight, what do you think he demands on the market?
remember ricky williams? hes the posterboy for why sylvia turning down fedor would have been a stupid idea. you may need to look that one up.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 6 or 7 fights a year weren’t in the UFC it was his big plan for leaving the UFC, he didn’t just leave for one Affliction fight he left because he thought he could fight 6 or 7 times a year for that kind of money. His plan wasn’t to fight once and then sit on his ass for a year it was to fight multiple times for big bucks for a year or two and then go back to the UFC.
As far as paycuts and losing go they may do that if a guy loses a fight he should of won easily but not for a closely fought title fight like he had against Big Nog, he wasn’t just another fighter he was a former world champion who was still in regular title contention. He still had one fight left of that contract too so he had another chance to impress and he may of got that fight with Brock Lesnar that he really wanted (and still wants now). When it came time to renegotiate his contract obviously he would get a more up to date deal (he was fighting on a contract from 2006/2007), he was still competitive and he still had value as a title contender at that time.
At what point in his current lack of a career does that one time payout fail to be worth the money he could of made working regularly in the industry? How much is he losing in sponsorship money by being out of circulation? He took a risk in the Fedor fight, yes there was a chance it could of paid off for him if he won but obviously a huge career risk going into it too, and this Mercer fight was all risk and no real reward at all. It’s one thing to talk about what it’s but what we have now is a guy who’s career is in shambles and his future earning potential is really shot to hell, was that 800k worth it?
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
okay, rather than go through a long reply, let’s do it this way. for sylvia to make 800K in the ufc, hed have to not have a cut in pay and win four straight fights against guys like kongo, dos santos, cain, lesnar, mir, couture, carwin, and gonzaga. do you think he does that? if not, he doesn’t make the money, and he spends a lot more of his own trying to get to make it.
like I said: ricky williams syndrome. hey, lots of people thought his contract with the saints was brilliant too.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not counting all the sponsorship money he is out, the rule of thumb for that is sponsorship money equals base pay so four UFC fights would be $400k in sponsorship money alone. Now I know that doesn’t neccessarily mean a lot but honestly the longer it gets from the Fedor fight without him having another big paying fight the more money he is losing. It’s not 800k vs 3 or 4 UFC fights it’s 800k vs the rest of his career.
The big similarity between Tim Sylvia and Ricky Williams is that they both did it to themselves. Oh and Williams contract with the Saints was pretty universally panned as Williams getting ripped off and Williams fired him management shortly after that, gee perhaps that does fit into this discussion.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
theres a pattern that you follow – make baseless assertion, complain loudly, repeat. thus far, youve claimed that sylvia would have gotten a pay raise and not a pay cut after losing, that he was making 6 figures a fight in sponsors, and that he could have gotten even more for fighting lesnar if he stuck around. i cant argue any of that because the evidence only exists in your mind.
however, i do know this, and you havent argued against it – hes wasnt guaranteed anything near what you say he is because he has to win fights, like pothead williams had to ‘just’ run for 1500 yards his rookie year to make more than anyone else in history. ricky got hurt and made well under a million. i seem to remember you basically slagging timmy’s skill in the past, which makes me think you dont believe he could or would win a bunch of fights in a row too. since you cant even guarantee to me that tim sylvia would have won one fight had he stayed in the ufc, my viewpoint doesnt change.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t slagged his abilities I have made fun of his obvious issues and what he has done to his own career. Hell Tim Sylvia did win most of his UFC fights and he was ranked on all the top ten list for a reason lets not act like he was worthless and had no chance of winning fights and lets not act like the UFC would just ditch on a guy who had been with them for 5 years just because he didn’t beat Big Nog for a belt.
This doesn’t exist in my own mind it’s what has been happening in Tim Sylvia’s career for years and years through a number of ups and downs. What we can say for sure without a doubt is how things turned out for him outside of the UFC and that’s sitting on his ass not making any real money at all after the Fedor fight, hell now he’s off the third Affliction card too, those are things that are facts, he’s not fighing near as often as he was in the UFC and his future really appears to be shot to hell. This is about balancing that one 800k against what has happened to his career since he left the UFC.
As far as this pattern you are talking about I really don’t know what the hell you are talking about so at this point whatever you want to believe is the only thing you will ever believe, We’ve come full circle yet again.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what ill say is this again, because you didnt address my question. do you think sylvia would or could have beat the best names being promoted in the ufc heavyweight division? if you agree that he is nowhere near guaranteed to do so, then he made the right move, because all the talk about big money for two or three years after stems from the ability to perform then. if he cant beat those hes sure to end up outside looking in with no big money to go with that feeling. hes not chuck liddell in that he can use his name forever to get money from dana.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tim has the potential to beat all of them, he always has, that’s no to say that he wouldn’t screw it up but lets not act like he can’t win, heck his performance against Big Nog was pretty impressive. The thing is he closed that door when he went out it, do you have any information that the UFC was about to cut him? Yes the 800k was a great payday but it obviously was a big risk leaving the UFC like that and his plan to fight 6 to 7 times a year outside of the UFC for big money was completly illogical. He wasn’t trying to take the 800k and retire he still wants to fight and leaving the UFC in the manner that he did puts his ability to get future big fights at risk.
It’s that simple, one big fight with a big payday vs future career. Was it worth it, well so far it just doesn’t look that way. The money was great, I hope he invested it wisely.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
theres a short answer here for that and youre picking yes on the basis that he could do it in theory. that seems like a pretty weak basis to pass up that much money.
tim wasnt guaranteed to be in the ufc right now if he stayed, much less making big money. thats the bottom line. you can color with as many but ifs as you want.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but it’s still just 1 million.
He took that million dollars straight up instead something that would have given him at least 500k/yr for a few years, not very smart.
by Phildo on Jun 14, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you have info about a guaranteed half million a year for tim sylvia in the ufc, win lose or draw, thats pretty amazing. you should share more about it.
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s not guranteed, but very likely.
2 fights a year, so that’s 200k guaranteed. If he’s sticking with the UFC, he probably gets a fight he can win, that’s another 100k. Pretty likely that he’s going to get another 200k from unreported bonuses/sponsors that just aren’t available in other orgs.
It’s not a guarantee, but it’s not a stretch.
Besides that, If terrible money problems are why he had to take the fight with Mercer, the whole thing is moot. Who cares how much he got for Affliction, he’s in a bad enough spot right now that he had to take the Mercer point, so he screwed up.
by Phildo on Jun 15, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
like i said to who me – its not guaranteed because he has to win multiple fights. look at what who me says too. sylvia only has one fight left on his contract? no big deal. they can cut him for a loss. standard ufc clause. only one fight? if he doesnt resign immediately under their terms they bench guys with a fight left until the time runs out. so theres no guarantee he fights for that much, gets a raise, wins his next fight, doesnt get benched till december, so on. there is a guarantee if he fights fedor that he gets 800k. which do you take?
by nigelzackit on Jun 15, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Short term thinking you take the 800k but long term you probably should really think about what this means for the rest of your career.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that the fact that Sylvia just is not that good a fighter has had the biggest negative impact on his career. He was over rated and at the end of the day he makes his own decisions. Managers make suggestions but the athlete ultimately decides what to do. He let the lure of dollars outweigh his critical thinking skills. His mistake. Hopefully now he will fade into obscurity and maintain enough dignity not to pull a Tito.
by fightfan942 on Jun 14, 2009 8:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sylvia earned his position in the sport
and left a body of battered opponents and ruined careers in his wake — ask Tre Telligman, Cabbage, Ricco Rodriguez, Andrei Arlovski and Gan McGee about Tim’s lack of abilities. Two of those guys were UFC champs and the others were highly touted at various points.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 14, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which makes his career suicide all the more notable (and a bit funny).
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sylvia was a top ten fighter
As Kid Nate pointed out, he has beaten quality opponents and the only times he looked overmatched were against Couture and Fedor. He obviously didn’t take this fight seriously and took a fight in which he had nothing to gain and everything to lose.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Jun 14, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He looked at the Klitschkos selling out soccer stadiums and thought he should be doing the same.
If he honestly thought that then he and everyone who didn’t simply say “no” is an idiot
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 14, 2009 8:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you should be surprised. Sylvia has been delusional in regard to his own talents. I remember in the build-up to the Couture fight he was quoted as saying something along the lines of Couture having trouble with big heavyweights (Barnett, Ricco) and good strikers (Liddell) and that he was the best of both worlds.
by filipinomix2oo0 on Jun 14, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What else do you expect him to say? His game is all about his size and striking. He is just hyping a fight, everyone who is smart does it
by Flyghtt on Jun 14, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Problem with that is, he actually believes it. Don’t forget this is the same guy who thought beating Ray Mercer would launch a successful boxing career.
by akrzyzak on Jun 15, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know what he believes
Also, at the time he was 23-2 with 16 KOs and his two losses were by sub. He was the biggest guy in the UFC. How can you fault him for making those statements. He had a good argument back then
by Flyghtt on Jun 15, 2009 2:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re fighting a losing battle here. Best heavyweight striker? Better than Mirko Cro Cop?
by akrzyzak on Jun 15, 2009 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CC was 22-4 with 16 KOs. Pretty comparable careers at that point. I’m also not saying he was the best HW striker, I’m just saying he had an argument.
At that point I’d leave him out of the top 5 strikers, but give him honorable mention. You can’t hate on a guy for believing in himself though. Its not like his claims were that outlandish
by Flyghtt on Jun 15, 2009 3:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lets not forget though that both guys got beat on the feet in their very next fights, both against ground specialists. Its not like either of these guys has a real claim to being the best HW striker, it just appeared so at the time
by Flyghtt on Jun 15, 2009 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is all absurd
He got a fight with Fedor, that is a huge accomplishment for his management.
Then he went on to box a former boxing champ. This is a win-win for him. If he wins he gains more respect than he has ever had, and might get some huge boxing paydays down the road. If he loses, so what he was clearly supposed to and he still gets paid and can move on.
Who would have known that last minute they would have to switch it to MMA and Sylvia would get 12 second KOed. That combination of events had to be like a 1 in 1000
by Flyghtt on Jun 14, 2009 10:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
kimbo slice beat ray mercer
"All I guarantee is Violence" - Wand
by rockied on Jun 14, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in MMA, and not using his striking. This was supposed to be a boxing match
by Flyghtt on Jun 14, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he beat Ray Mercer he was a joke for fighting him in the first place, losing to him was career suicide. Talk about a no win situation. Yes fighting Fedor could of turned out to be a big deal for him (although honestly betting your career on getting a win over Fedor seems like a poorly thought out move) but there is no way at all to spin him fighting elderly Ray Mercer as any kind of posible win for him. The whole “I’ll make mega-bucks in boxing after I beat Mercer” was the biggest farce I’ve heard in a long time, just fighting Mercer made him a joke in MMA and boxing. That’s not even mentioning the severly poor planning behind the event that led to them moving the show from Jersey to Alabama and having the ABC coming down hard on their asses.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t have to beat Fedor, no one has. You just need to look respectable. Do you really think Monte Cox thought he was going to get choked out in 16 seconds.
As far as boxing, who did you expect him to fight? It was his first match. I think he has huge balls for stepping up to an accomplished and experienced boxer. This is like if Hatton came in and fought Jens Pulver in an MMA fight. No one would fault him for losing, but he would surely gain respect with a win. Maybe not a huge payday right after, but it lays the groundwork a little bit.
by Flyghtt on Jun 14, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jens Pulver is still a relatively active fighter. If Tim Sylvia went in and fought Hasim Rahman or someone of that ilk then fine.
Ray Mercer is 48 years old for gods sakes. It’s like Hatton coming in and fighting……nope MMA hasn’t even been around long enough to find the right comparison.
by rainmaker6 on Jun 14, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Royce
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 15, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well for one Jens Pulver is 4-0 as a professional boxer but even then he would never be allowed to fight Hatton, hell even Jens Pulver said the Tim Sylvia fight was a bad idea. For two this fight was such a joke no state athletic commission would even sanction the bout, Ray Mercer has been fighting in Sweden for the last couple of years because they won’t sanction him to box in the US anymore. This isn’t anywhere close to someone from MMA fighting 30 year old top fighter Ricky Hatton it’s someone from MMA fighting a 49 year old man that can’t even get US fights sanctioned anymore.
No one gives Arlovski crap for trying boxing because he is actually doing it the proper way with respect for the sport, he’s trying to fight someone at a similar boxing experience level on a boxing undercard and build himself up within the sport. Tim Sylvia’s big plan was to box a eldery fighter in a cage in a completly unsanctioned fight with a MMA ref instead of a boxing ref and then go make millions as a big time professional boxer off of it, that’s so moronic of an idea it shouldn’t even have to be explained to people.
As far as looking good against Fedor, who has even done that recently? He threw away a UFC career which very probably would of included a new lucrative contract on the off chance he could at least look good against Fedor? The risk compared to what was lost doesn’t make a lot of sense careerwise unless he wins against Fedor and that was a big risk.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His new UFC contract would have been a joke next to the 800k guaranteed for the Fedor fight. Also, Arlovski certainly was impressive in the Fedor fight. He was winning the entire way until the KO, and probably could have gone anywhere to fight after that on that merit.
My point about Pulver/Hatton was not about Pulver boxing, it was about Hatton fighting MMA compared to Tim boxing
by Flyghtt on Jun 15, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His 800k from Affliction turned out to be a joke because he didn’t fight for a year after that, in the long run he could of made more off 4 UFC fights than that one Affliction fight then sitting on his ass for a year. Besides his obscene Affliction payout wasn’t near as much as Arlovski got or what Barnett will end up getting, even in plundering of Tom Atencio his management let him down.
Your point about Hatton fighting a MMA fighter was irrelevant regardless of who Hatton could fight. No athletic commission is going to sanction a MMA fighter with no (or limited) professional boxing experience to fight Ricky Hatton, it just isn’t going to happen and it was a completly irrelevant comparison to Tim Sylvia wanting to cage-box with a 49 year old Mercer who can’t even get boxing matches sanctioned in the US with actual boxers more/less a MMA fighter.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The odds are not even close to that high.
Monte Cox, his promoter, should have known that it is illegal to have a boxing match in Alabama supervised by a Canadian Commission. So there was a 100% chance of it getting changed to an mma match (since they tried and failed to get proper supervision)
Monte Cox, his manager, should have known that there was a very good chance of Tim Sylvia (a guy who has been rocked by 1 punch by Fedor and Randy in recent fights) getting rocked/KO’d by a guy with much more punching power.
And what payday? How much do you think he got for this. It wasn’t on TV, it wasn’t on PPV, I’m surprised there was any video to get on youtube.
by Phildo on Jun 14, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone know how many tickets were sold?
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So wouldn’t that make it even sadder that Tim Sylvia sat on his ass for the last year because he couldn’t get a MMA fight that paid any money? What happened to him fighting 6 or 7 times a year? If he got to the point where he needed the money so bad that he had to take a fight with Ray Mercer on a card that wouldn’t even air on internet streaming then that really speaks poorly for his management.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Recession?
What UFC fighters are complaining about the recession? The recession isn’t a problem for people in the UFC because they’re continuing to do great business in the recession. The recession is only affecting the fighters trying to make it with these other orgs. And that’s the whole point of this piece, Cox shouldn’t have let Tim leave the UFC.
If Tim doesn’t leave the UFC when he does, he sees Affliction 2 get canceled. He sees Affliction 1 lose the amount of money that it did. These are not guaranteed contracts they’re dealing with. Before Monte gets Tim to leave the UFC for a 3 fight 800k/fight deal with Affliction, he should think, “3 times 800k, where are you going to get that money from?” What’s the point in signing a contract worth 3 million dollars over 2 years if there is little to no chance of you actually getting that money. It’s Monte’s job to realize that Affliction is not going to make it and that the price is too good to be true.
A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. Or 100k birds in the hand is worth 800k in the bush in this example. It’s Monte’s job to realize that, and he didn’t. If Tim had a different manager, that person wouldn’t have let Tim leave the UFC to fight in Adrenaline (which is one of Tim’s stated reasons for leaving).
by Phildo on Jun 15, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you google Monte Cox right now this article comes up 4th on the list.
by who me on Jun 14, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i agree with the points about bad management…..however, Tim has bills to pay. it’s not like his popularity will pack people into seminars or an mma gym he might start to pay the mortgage. i dunno, fighters sometimes make hard decisions, ala Jens Pulver at the last WEC saying he might HAVE to continue fighting. not excusing MOnte’s mgmt. b/c I do think it is atrocious, but just keep in mind there’s a ton more behind the scenes as to why fighters take fights than just bad advice.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/
by theworldsoldestsport on Jun 14, 2009 11:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But taking this fight is just 1 of the pieces of this puzzle.
If Monte had been doing a better job, the behind the scenes reasons to take the fight wouldn’t exist.
by Phildo on Jun 15, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If money was the issue then why would they leave basically sure employment in the UFC? He had been there for years and at the time that he left he just came off a good showing against Big Nog earnimg a lot of respect. His chances for getting a new contract were looking pretty bright and he would of been fighting regularly for the last year and a half making good money. If Tim Sylvia is having problems paying bills now then that is also because of poor professional management.
Oh and before you try and drag poor Jens Pulver into this you need to remember that Jens Pulver been making 30k a fight, even in Sylvia’s UFC days he was making 100k/100k a fight and he made more off the Fedor fight than Jens has made in the last several years combined. If Jens Pulver had been making Tim Sylvia money then he probably would of retired. They aren’t even close to in the same boat as far as needing to fight.
by who me on Jun 15, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Monte Cox is the biggest idiot of MMA
Isn’t even a contest. This was the worst, most embarrassing event in MMA history put on exclusively by Cox. He took a Top 5 heavyweight and killed his career in a years time. Getting $800k from Affliction isn’t even an accomplishment. Tim could have gotten that deal himself without Cox. Let’s not forget Arlovski easily got double the money.
People rip Gary Shaw, but he is 100 times the promoter. Kimbo was a nothing and made him into a something. Sylvia was something and Cox made him into nothing. Even though EliteXC crashed, there were plenty of assets other promotions fought to pick up. If Adrenaline died tomorrow it would just save tax payers money from having to form a special government commission to shut him down.
by bignerd on Jun 15, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is all hindsight talking jibberish.
1. Timmy’s career is all his own making. No one else is to blame. It’s his name that he signed to take his fights.
2. Tim would’ve been crazy not to take the Fedor fight. Timmy knocked around a lot of great heavies, including Nog before he got submitted. It’s completely logical that he felt he could compete with one of the best, and get paid well for doing it.
3. Tim’s biggest mistake was not taking things seriously enough and getting his mind proper before and after these fights. Had he done so, he wouldn’t have fought Mercer, and he’d have done much better against Fedor. Blaming his management is poppycock. Especially when you look at the career of Alverez, potentially one of the most well managed fighters not in the UFC.
by Dooda on Jun 15, 2009 1:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
time will tell about Alvarez
personally I have grave grave doubts about the wisdom of his signing with Bellator.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 15, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He certainly hasn’t looked like a world beater in this tournament yet.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 15, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 



![Tim Sylvia at Affliction Retail Grand Opening in Vegas [at the 4:06 min mark]
"I'm going to be over in Japan for a while; it's been a dream of mine so it's finally coming true. Hopefully I have some success over there and be back in the States afterwards."](http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/82708/default_small.jpg)
















