Thoughts Coming Out of UFC 99
by Michael Rome on Jun 14, 2009 12:07 AM EDT
in News
143 comments
Speaking of Cain Velasquez, his performance can be interpreted a number of ways. His kickboxing was not good, he was tagged in almost every exchange, and he didn't have the ability to finish an opponent that was just waiting to be finished. On the other hand, his wrestling control was very good, his conditioning was great, he had quite a chin, and he beat a top 10 (or so) heavyweight in only his sixth fight. I think Mirko would be an interesting fight just because Mirko has better takedown defense than Kongo, and certainly has the standing skill to put him away.
A few months ago, Shane Carwin crushed Gonzaga with a single right hand after a bad start. Cain's performance was almost the exact opposite; he dominated for 15 minutes but didn't have the power to finish. Cain almost reminds me of a more well-rounded version of the early Randy Couture, content to overwhelm guys and beat them into exhaustion. He needs serious striking improvement though, and I don't know if AKA is equipped to give it to him.
Mike Swick looked decent, but was overhyped by the announcers as usual. He is nowhere near GSP's class as a fighter, and does not deserve a title shot. I think they should match him up with Martin Kampmann in September.
Finally, the main event. What an odd fight it was. Both men looked cautious, and Franklin looked like he was on his way to an easy decision victory until he got caught in the second. Wanderlei really had a chance to put him away there, but missed the opportunity. Neither man looked particularly great, but they both had to deal with an opponent with such a unique style.
Wanderlei made a tactical mistake starting out cautious. He was most successful when he came forward aggressively, Rich did not punish him enough for coming in recklessly. He lost the fight, but I think Wanderlei will live to fight another day. The fans loved the fight, he obviously loves what he's doing, and if he can stay that competitive with a fighter as good as Rich Franklin, who are we as fans to tell him he needs to retire? I do think that perhaps he should stay at 205, as it looked like the weight cut just slowed him down.
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Good call on Wanderlei. He should be allowed to carry on. I had doubts about his punch resistance after the Rampage fight, but he took some good shots tonight and took them well. As long as he can be competitive with guys like Rich Franklin there’s no reason for him to retire.
" Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated "
- Hemingway
by Hellsing on Jun 13, 2009 6:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
just like in the franklin/hendo fight, nobody really lost. franklin finally has is big name marquee win and wandi can go down to 185 and still have some good fights and some good paydays. very good event overall.
by bdw on Jun 13, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pretty much sums it up for me.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, I was happy with Wanderlei’s performance, and that his chin was holding up good. 185 will be good to Wand, so long as he can make the cut without draining himself too much.
by kyfm621 on Jun 13, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fight was over and Wandy wasn’t bleeding out of his ears. He should do better at MW.
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 13, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Silva's name is mispelled on the poster
Anyway…awesome card. Great time to be an MMA fan…so many great fights lately.
Good write up Michael!
by banter on Jun 13, 2009 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope Davis/Hardy get FOTN
It was much better than the main event IMO
by I Can't Feel My Face on Jun 13, 2009 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I do think that perhaps he should stay at 205, as it looked like the weight cut just slowed him down.
No, no, no. His first weight cut, and even though he looked sluggish at the end of the second, I really felt he caught as second wind in round three. He just needs to get used to the rythmn of cutting weight and he’ll be fine. This was the first fight I can remember – and against a guy who can fight legitimately at 205 – that he didn’t look really undersized compared to his opponent. Chuck had a huge size advantage, as did Rampage, as did Jardine. I like him much better going this direction and now that he’s started to cut weight, he’ll be better at it from here on in.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 6:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dos Santos/Cain
Kill or be killed
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 13, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dos Santos is booked against McCully, isn’t he?
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After they scoop up McCully’s remains this would be a good one
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 13, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dos Santos
is overrated right now.
Give him Cain, not Carwin.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 13, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give CC Herring next
One more win before he gets thrown to the wolves.
Cain looked incredible, imo – he was blasted, straight cold cocked a couple of times, and reverted right back to his elite level wrestling. He’s going to be trouble for anyone not named Brock Lesnar or Shane Carwin.
Uno got absolutely robbed – and I’m a huge Fisher fan.
Wanderlei is nowhere near done, and if he can maintain that kind of pace at 185, watch out.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wandy/Hendo 3
Keep firing Assholes!
Out out, you demons of stupidity!
by Ubernoober on Jun 13, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything in this post. Cain MUST learn how to deal with fighters who have a reach advantage – that was the only thing Kongo had going for him – but to survive the shots he did and not only come back every time but COMPLETELY DOMINATE the fight is so fucking impressive.
Uno = robbed. I had that fight nearly dead even, but with an edge to Uno’s relentless takedowns and the control and damage at the end. A unanimous decision is a unanimously bad decision.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not buying the idea that it is a knock against Cain that he didn’t stop Kongo. Kongo has been stopped exactly once in 20 career fights. He can take a beating.
by andherewego on Jun 13, 2009 6:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cain is a joke right now. Can’t wait to see him fight actual intelligent people.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How is he a joke
He showed very positional dominance on the ground, good cardio and got outstriked by a good striker.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He showed positional dominance against a guy who has no clue about the ground. He couldn’t finish a guy who gave up mount like six times and his back about ten times. He couldn’t finish a guy who was in the turtle position for about twelve minutes. Does anyone else not see the joke in that? Kongo lost that fight more than Cain won it simply because Kongo, on four separate occasions, did the same thing after he rocked Cain and that was rush in and let him get a body lock on him and get the takedown. Cain was out on his feet four times and Kongo rushed in, clinched, and got taken down. Kongo is an idiot.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kongo is also a top ten heavyweight that Cain just dominated.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He dominated, true. But it wasn’t impressive by any stretch.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or yours are absurdly high. Merely winning the fight at 5-0 impresses me.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My standards are pretty high considering the guy was called the best fighter in AKA by their own people. I watched him struggle to beat a guy with no ground game.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because Cain was in danger twice doesn’t mean he struggled. Just because Kongo was able to take a beating until the bell doesn’t mean Cain struggled. It means that Kongo is a tough bastard and a dangerous striker with serious power who got absolutely tuned.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You can replace ‘Cain’ with ‘Brock’ and ‘Kongo’ with ‘Herring’ and that paragraph still makes complete sense.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be true if Cain out struck Kongo. I think Lesnar decided to punish Herring, he refused mount and back mount several times. Cain was in those positions the entire fight, and I really have to question his ability to do damage with strikes.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 13, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ask Jake O'Brien about that
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 14, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think kongo can do better on the ground, he looked gassed really early. I call SHORT NOTICE!
by spectaa on Jun 13, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kongo = Overeem
Double standards FTW
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
by P Brady on Jun 13, 2009 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kongo's only been finished once in his career.
If the fight went longer he probably would have been stopped because when Gilbert beat him it was due to Kongo just being absolutely gassed.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if my mother hand nuts she’d be my father.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is pretty shocking though that he’s never been finished because he was leaving himself wide open for submissions. Velasquez getting rocked obviously points out a need to work on his standup, particularly head movement, but a bigger concern was his lack of any kind of submission game. Kongo’s defense was to give up his back and turtle up… and Velasquez couldn’t sink in a choke. Kongo only had to worry about ground n pound, which Cain couldn’t really do much of with hammerfists to Kongo’s ears.
I’ve heard so many times that Cain picks things up amazingly quick, but aparently CB Dolloway never showed him that Peruvian necktie.
by Stanlee on Jun 13, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brock did the same thing against Herring
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except Brock didn’t get abused anytime they actually stood on two legs.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Granted, but Brock was on Heath’s back several times and didn’t attempt to finish him – I guess everyone gave him a pass since it was his 3rd fight, right?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i love how when someone hates a fighter, they take every opportunity to needle and try to stick in a jab to prove a point
by soadtrails on Jun 13, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t hate Brock Lesnar mind you, but there were some similarities that are being discussed here that I wanted to bring up.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What similarities? Lesnar was never threatened against Heath, at all.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only mentioned the ground game similarities – that’s it. Just that Brock didn’t capitalize on Heath giving up his back numerous times
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that Brock actually was never in trouble, landed vicious shot after vicious shot, and Herring is one of the toughest men in MMA.
That’s the only fight I’ve ever seen where one man (Herring) had his will literally broken in the ring and you could pinpoint the exact moment in time it actually happened.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really. Not as tough as people think.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given your intimate knowledge of Kongo
I’ll grant that.
Wait a minute. You know nothing about how tough Kongo is, right? Okay – then I dismiss that statement.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah. Kongo is so tough. God forbid he gets outhearted by Carmelo Marrero, a natural 205’er.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m running out of polite responses to people on the Internet saying professional fucking fighters aren’t tough, so I’m going to keep my mouth shut.
Suffice it to say I think your judgments on how tough someone is are about as valid as my judgments on how much morning sickness sucks – you, like I, have no idea what you’re talking about.
Taking that kind of beating for 15 minutes = you’re tough.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking that kind of beating for 15 minutes = you’re tough.
Taking that kind of beating for 13 minutes after abusing the guy standing and losing the fight yourself more than the other guy winning it himself = Dumb.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you’re gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think being dumb got anything to do here. Kongo is just not good enough on the ground, and I’m repeating myself, he looked gassed early.
by spectaa on Jun 13, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feal Kongo did not play it smart. He just needed to take a step back. but yes he still is a bad dude, that flurry in the 3rd made me jump out of my seat. I think Carwin could mop the floor with both of them
Hello, Japan!
by Mr.Kib on Jun 14, 2009 5:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Despite his giant weakness on the ground
He hangs in there and only has been stopped once.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was more shock than will being broken
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people were pointing it out pretty loudly too. The diference being…
Brock’s trainer said he picks things up quickly, but we thought it was just hype, for velasquez, since everybody were going nuts on his abilities, I guess most people supposed he had good submissions skills too.
by spectaa on Jun 13, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He got getting rocked by a good striker.
If he was getting tagged easily by a very poor striker than you have issues.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, so Cain wasn’t impressive because he absolutely mugged a skilled, experienced fighter who had precisely zero answer for his game? Fact is that Cain and Kongo had a massive disparity in that each was dominant over the other in one facet of the game… but it was Cain who was able to impose which facet of the game mattered.
I understand what you’re saying, but honestly, I just don’t get it. It’s like your judging on some sort of completely stilted criteria. Last time I checked, GSP did the same thing to BJ, didn’t stop him inside three rounds, and was hailed as a hero.
Did no one else notice that Kongo almost couldn’t get up after the fight? He’s got guts for hanging on, but seriously, he got brutalized and many other fighters would have quit or had the fight stopped.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More questions were raised about Cain’s game than answered.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At only 6 fights in….
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he’s had six fights. Of course he’s still progressing. But just because we have to ask questions about his striking defence (when he was fighting a kickboxer with a massive reach advantage), doesn’t mean we didn’t also answer serious questions about his recovery time, his wrestling ability, his ground control, etc. etc. etc.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had serious questions answered about his wrestling against a guy who is 0-3 in the UFC against guys with solid wrestling bases? News to me.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the other grapplers didn't stop Cheik either.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You remember the Herring fight? That was worse for Kongo.
by FlyByKnight on Jun 13, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean the one he lost by split decision? The fight where lots of people have been saying that he should have won? That went WORSE for Kongo? Really?
I think you’re way out on a limb here.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and in the herring/kongo fight it was kongo that was pushing the fight to the ground, much to herring’s surprise. I don’t think kongo was the one dictating position tonight.
by Stanlee on Jun 13, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats another dark spot on Kongo’s resume. Kongo was taking herring down in that fight! What is his problem, does he not understand his strengths and weaknesses?
by crinow on Jun 13, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think its impressive. really. dude made a big jump and won like 95 percent of the fight. but what cain did with kongo isnt gonna be so easy with carwin, you know? i mean, look at the predictions. everyone that picked kongo did it basically because they either guessed cain would try to trade or that hed be wide open shooting. he turned out to be wide open shooting in, but he was strong enough to withstand it and play his game. but its against guys who arent crappy grapplers that the problems people complain about come out. and you know what….hes gonna have to start fighting those guys now that he won here. well, unless they decide to make him fight herring anyways.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES.YES.YES. So painful to watch. Kongo seemed to be looking for the clinch at times, and in the third even attempted a takedown. He got it, but ended up with Cain on his back again seconds later. I know you all saw the fight, so I am not trying to recap. It was just so jaw dropping to me. I was literally screaming at the TV. Kongo was as dominant in the stand up as Cain was on the ground, albeit for shorter periods. Maybe he was overconfident in his ground and pound because of his success with Al-Turk.
Kongo needs to bring in some world class grapplers…maybe Houston Alexander could show him a few things.
by crinow on Jun 13, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s undefeated and in just his sixth career fight dominated a top ten heavyweight for 15 minutes.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 13, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Its
amazing how fighting in the UFC and dominating a top 10 guy for 15 minutes is actually held against you. Cain showed resolve, stamina, and an incredible chin in his victory and he is being blasted.
Barnett had a similar fight against Yvel and he is hailed as the #2 HW in the world. Just a damn shame. Josh is 5-2 in his last 7 losing to Cro Cop and Nog. He has beat Yvel, Rizzo (2 wins since 03), Monson (one of Rizzos wins), Yoshida (8-7) and Nastula (1-4).
by Riney on Jun 13, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t so much impressed by his chin as by his recovery time and ability to shift instinctively into wrestling mode, which with his strength and wrestling ability, is a hell of a fall back.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont know that he was shifting into wrestling mode as much as he was panicking and doing the thing hes best conditioned to do. no offense.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ummmmm....
What the hell is the difference between shifting into wrestling mode when you’re rocked, and switching to what you are best conditioned to do in a time of crisis?
by soadtrails on Jun 13, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think its a ‘mode’ or whatever, i just think its a panic attempt to not get koed. it works with kongo because kongo is a mediocre grappler. if he gets hurt by carwin and runs at him with his hands all over the place looking to grab hes gonna leave the ring in a stretcher.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It shows an ability to at least keep the train on the tracks until you sink in a takedown after getting blasted. It’s not something every guy has (see Goulet, Johnathan).
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, goulet has a glass jaw. hes not the best example of someone who adjusts when they get hit because he doesnt come to for like 10 minutes afterwards.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then ought we not be impressed by the non-glassness of Cain’s jaw? Keeping your calm without panicking is a MUST in elite level MMA. A more apt comparison might be Fedor getting rocked by Fujita – completely on queer street, but able to recover (by reverting to grappling in the midst of losing the stand up battle) and win.
Cain ain’t Fedor, but he showed the ability to take a shot and not turtle/freak out/swing like a wildman. He got hit, shot and dominated the rest of the round three times. That’s not so much ‘panic’ as ‘adjusting’ to me.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats the tough part. kongo didnt land some clean blow that turned his head around either but he hurt him. but they are big dudes with small gloves.
i think over the long run of the fight youre on point. he went from thinking about trading to using his punches to get close. he did what he needed to do to win and kongo is a guy who was well rated. but at the same time, its not as if he was flawless out there. i think the things he lacks could be a big issue when he fights those next level guys, and its time for him to start fighting them. or he could fight herring and do what he did tonight again.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s certainly a little raw – I’ll give you that. That’s why I was really heartened to hear him be so humble after the fight, no talk of a title shot, just saying it’s another step on the road. 4 oz gloves = anyone can get caught by anyone, and I was impressed by Cain’s chin.
He’s going to have trouble with Lesnar and Carwin. I at least give him a fighting chance against any other UFC HW after tonight.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now that did impress me quite a bit.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 13, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And people tore Josh a new one about that too.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Jun 13, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop it.
You’re killing me. :-P
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 14, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Cain is a joke right now. Can’t wait to see him fight actual intelligent people."
I second that. Color me unimpressed by Cain’s lack of ability to finish Kongo. Worst fight of the night IMO.
I'm the kind of girl who loves to watch a GOOD fight!
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by funnytiger on Jun 14, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has Cheick Kongo ever looked as lethal standing up in the UFC as he did tonight when he was standing against Cain?
by Michael Rome on Jun 13, 2009 6:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I lost a bet tho, Cain came out of the fight with 100% balls.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope – but he sure has looked that inept on the ground.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a shame kongo can’t seem to develop a serious ground game. I was excited at the begining of each round. :/
by spectaa on Jun 13, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note to Kongo:
Takedown defense, get up. Takedown defense, get up. Takedown defense, get up. Rinse and repeat. Smooth sailing from here.
by MauiPimpin on Jun 13, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sherdog has a poll asking how did you score the Franklin-Silva fight and 54% have responded 29-28 Silva – interesting.
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly how I had it
29-28 Silva with Franklin winning the 1st round.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
by SSreporters on Jun 13, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concur.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree but I wonder if his “violence” was too much for the judges
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
by lovingmma25 on Jun 13, 2009 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first round was a toss-up
The second went to Wandy and the third to Franklin. It was all about how you scored the first. I’d have given it to Wandy just out of love (and gratitude that he didn’t get KTFO early), but it’s ok either way.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, depending on how much weight you gave to the various exchanges, etc., it really was close. I liked Wandy for the win, so did my wife, but I don’t think he got robbed (unlike Uno).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uno was absolutely robbed. How can you give Silva the third round, SS?
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had Franklin hurt towards the final minute of the fight
Even after he was taken down he got up and landed some elbows to end it.
I will agree that Uno was robbed.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
by SSreporters on Jun 13, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looked to me Silva slipped quite a few of Franklins jabs in Round 3.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Both fighters slipped several times throughout the fight. Whether it was attempting a head kick or avoiding/throwing a punch they were slipping.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
by SSreporters on Jun 13, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol at least it wasn't a Dan Henderson headkick
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on Jun 13, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do think it could have been all the blood on the mat?
Hello, Japan!
by Mr.Kib on Jun 14, 2009 5:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had it for Silva too, BUT...
It’s Sherdog. Wand nuthuggers central
by I Can't Feel My Face on Jun 13, 2009 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overall
For a UFC event, I have to say the televised card was average. I can’t comment on Davis/Hardy but it sounded like a great fight. Fisher/Uno was a terrible decision to a terrible fight. The Swick/Saunders fight was okay. Thing with Cro-Cop/Al-Turk will be marred with the eye-poke and the overall ineptness of Miragliotta.
Kongo/Velasquez had many good moments (mainly Kongo’s second wind towards the end of the fight), but Cheick’s ground game, specifically his takedown defense, was nothing short of embarrassing.
Franklin/Silva was entertaining and definitely fight of the night.
UFC 100 will be epic though. No way it can disappoint. GSP/Alves will be a war and Lesnar gets a second crack at Mir after leaving himself so vulnerable for a knee bar.
Now I await TUF 9 next week.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
by SSreporters on Jun 13, 2009 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree with much of your assessmennt, but I actually think I enjoyed the fights much more than you did. Where I differ is:
-the Hardy-Davis fight, which I really enjoyed (did you miss it?)
-the Fisher-Uno fight, which had me captivated as a battle for control and a generally interesting grappling match, though the decision was just plain ridiculous (and I’ll stop talking about it now since that’s the third post in this thread that I’ve said that)
-and I thought Swick-Saunders was just awful, I hated pretty much the entire thing except that it DIDN’T go the distance
We enjoyed it, anyway. Thought it was a really solid card of entertaining fights.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I missed the Hardy/Davis fight
Looking for a stream.
Andy Reid is the only coach in NFL history that uses the pass to set up the pass.
by SSreporters on Jun 13, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah; well, it wasn’t TUF 1 in terms of “non-stop action” – lots of tieups on the fence looking for TDs, lots of time spent in each other’s guard – but it was a fun fight. Hardy worked a great gameplan, but showed some mistakes when he got too excited (dove into Davis’ guard at one point, and his g’n’p looked kinda… flailing). Davis almost looked TOO cautious, like he didn’t want to get caught up in his emotions and ended up kinda tight. Each of the three rounds, Hardy hammered Davis with one shot/short series of shots that could have put him away if he wasn’t so damn tough; second round was a knee from the clinch that just looked nasty and first round was an elbow while Davis was pushed up against the fence that made a “TUNK” sound like a rock bouncing off a log. Davis controlled a lot of the action, but didn’t do a ton of damage. I thought Hardy took it decisively, but the judges gave a split. Davis refused to shake hands afterwards; was pissed about the decision and apparently still pissed at Hardy (who really did seem to get inside his head). Great fight to lead off the show, though. Very smart by the UFC.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wandy vs Ace is
why main events NEED to be 5 round affairs. I wouldn’t have been upset with a split decision for either fighter. I would like to have watched 2 more rounds to get a better feel of a winner.
Swick keeps winning and the UFC needs to force a good fighter on him and see how he responds. So far he has answered the call and is 9-1.
Cain won that fight pure and simple. Sometimes it just too hard to finish a guy. It was a huge step up in competition and he came thru with a victory. I would love to see him try and fight at 205 but he is undefeated still.
by Riney on Jun 13, 2009 7:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All true. Who would you match Swick up against now? Hughes wouldn’t make any sense, Karo’s suspended, won’t fight Kos or Fitch unless he has to and Kos has been weirdly up and down lately. You could make a case for Swick-Fitch if you wanted to build Fitch up for a possible second run at the belt, but I don’t see the UFC wanting to do that. Akiyama, maybe? Swick just doesn’t seem to have a natural progression to me.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shit, that WOULD be a good fight! I’d forgotten about him because of the injury.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jun 13, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also Martin Kampmann
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 13, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I like Kampmann more
If Kampmann wins, you can put him against Fitch or another AKA guy for a title shot. If Swick can win that fight, he’d be awfully hard to deny.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hink he trians at aka with him and fitch
by Baki_hanma on Jun 13, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
with you about natural progression but the guy needs to lose. I think you make him fight Kos. Kos needs to shit or get off the pot and Swick could use a strong win or be exposed with a lose. I like Johnson as well. Swick would be high profile for him.
by Riney on Jun 13, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lets say he fights johnson and beats him – well, then people can argue that johnson was overrated all along, that he lost to rich clementi, blah blah blah.
honestly, why not matt hughes? matts on the way down and swick is on the way up. he needs a big name and hughes is one. johnson really isnt one. hardy is a good pick. brock larson is good. condit is good. kampmann is good. he has a history with yoshida. all of those are good fights. just because hes 9-1 in the ufc doesnt mean he has to be rushed to a title fight.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
also i dont want to make it sound like johnson is bad or a lousy pick, im just saying that if he loses to swick theres excuses to be made. theres not so many for kampmann. hell, those two have similar careers. why not?
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kampmann/Swick would be an excellent fight, and tell us a lot about where both of them stand in the division.
by subo on Jun 13, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
i called out swick/saunders as a joke when ben put the knees to the wolff guy at fight for the troops. but when it was actually announced, i was shocked that it was real. swick is much better and way more experienced in the ufc than saunders. kampmann/swick would be the next best set up for a title run. both are dangerous and both are well rounded enough to put together a decent gameplan for victory. so if the ufc is watching, you listened last time, put swick against kampmann, there i said it.
good luck in life!
by georgehouse on Jun 13, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i said that it was a mismatch too, and a lot of people here didnt want to hear that. oh well. but kampmann/swick would be outstanding. swick likes to try to get on top of guys and control, but kampmann can throw submissions way better than the poor suckers swicks been fighting. standing they’re even. no big size advantages. its probably an action fight.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re also going to have Alves available after UFC 100 next month assuming he doesn’t take out GSP. He’ll need an opponent and Marcus Davis dropped out of contention and Hardy isn’t quite there yet. Swick seems rather perfectly placed to take on the loser of the 170 title fight. I don’t think either Hughes or Serra would be interesting in Alves or GSP.
Kampmann would be a great fight too though.
by Stanlee on Jun 13, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Swick vs the loser
gets no one anywhere unless GSP vs Alves is an epic war that demands a not quite immediate rematch.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 13, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose if Alves loses, like he’s supposed to, that’s true. The UFC wouldn’t want to feed Swick to an animal like Alves just to have Alves clammering for a title shot again.
If GSP lost though, war or otherwise, the UFC wants him back into a title match asap. GSP is too marketable (could they sell out the Olympic Stadium in Montreal?) to keep him out of the title fight for long.
by Stanlee on Jun 13, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Screw it, give him GSP. He mentioned him by name so let Swick have a crack at him and get thoroughly demolished.
by Chadsac on Jun 14, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wanderlei at 185 should be interesting. Would like to see him get a tune up against someone like Alan Belcher or Kendall Grove.
Cro Cop vs Velasquez/Carwin needs to happen. Cro Cop has much better takedown/ground defense than Kongo and should Cain get past he can then go at it with the top tier (Nog, Brock, Mir, Couture). Cro Cop/Cain would be a barometer of how good each of their chins are.
As impressed as I was by Velasquez. You got to admit Kongo was acting a fool in there. His total ineptitude on the ground and his inability to do anything on the ground was sad to watch. He wouldn’t stand a chance against Brock, Nog, Mir, or Randy with their ground acumen. PS. Wolfslair.. get some fucking wrestling coaches.. for reals.
by MatteoFC on Jun 13, 2009 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know that even the best wrestling coaches could help Kongo deal with Cain’s wrestling.
by Michael Rome on Jun 13, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At one point Kongo got the takedown on Cain
that shows an enormous amount of skill and training IMO. A kickboxer against someone with Cain’s wrestling credentials should get shut down 100%.
Kongo needs to work on defending himself on the ground and getting back to his feet, but his wrestling isn’t 100% awful.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on Jun 13, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he didnt do anything with it though. hell, he wasnt even on top for 5 seconds, because he got the position reversed almost instantly. mikes right. kongo is what he is, and he isnt gonna be able to stop the big wrestlers takedowns unless he can catch them coming in.
by nigelzackit on Jun 13, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I picked Kongo and was rooting for him, I was under the mistaken impression that his sprawl and takedown defense had improved to that point that Cain would at least have to work for the takedown. Obviously I was wrong, Cain took him down at will and didn’t even have to use much energy to do it. Kongo was so much better exchanging on the feet it’s sad to think that if he just could have kept it standing for two or three minutes in a row Cain probably would have been KO’d but Kongo got what he deserved, I think all of the guys in the top 5 or 6 of the division would do the same thing. He doesn’t deserve a title shot, maybe he should just go to K-1.
by ufc4 on Jun 14, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well clearly kongo doesnt deserve a title shot. hes not a top contender. that should have really been clear after the herring fight. hes a good middle of the road guy though.
as far as kongo in k1 is concerned, hed be competitive. the biggest kickboxing win i can think of was a third round stop of rozalski, who was just in the k1 euro tournament like a week ago. thats not too shabby. for him the issue will be money. theres no superleague anymore and so the outlets to make big dough arent as plentful in kickboxing. hed be making probably half or a third of what he does to pound out chubby wrestlers and bad strikers in the cage. and he has a style that gives him a safe job for a few years.
by nigelzackit on Jun 14, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......
"He came into my dressing room to talk after and I said I won," Davis said in his statement. "He said it was close and he wouldn’t argue. That took something, I guess, but he’s not apologized for going too far with the talking. I won the fight."
This is from Kevin Iole’s column. How in the hell does Davis actually think he won that fight?
by ufc4 on Jun 14, 2009 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think there was any doubt Hardy won that fight. Let them at it again, I won’t mind, and I would put good money down on Hardy all over again.
by kyfm621 on Jun 14, 2009 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess Davis can feel slighted. But you NEVER leave a fight in the judges hands. If you looked at the two fighters you can tell who won. Thats a fact. Davis had what looked like a broken nose and orbital bone. Hardy escaped fairly unscathed.
Some how after all the shit talking that went on.. Hardy started off looking like a prick but now Davis is coming off as childish.
I really don’t want to see a rematch. Although it was a good fight I don’t think the second go around would really come out different. Especially as Davis claimed to have the best training camp ever.
by MatteoFC on Jun 14, 2009 5:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won rounds 1 & 3 of a 3 round fight. I suppose that’s what he’s basing it on.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on Jun 16, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too many are harsh on Kongo here. I’ve ripped on his ground game in the past but I thought he displayed excellent hip movement and cardio in this fight. Cain couldn’t finish the fight because Kongo kept preventing him from getting into a position where he could posture up and put any real force behind his punches.
by rabrown on Jun 14, 2009 2:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anybody else feel like Uno got robbed? I thought he won pretty convincingly and controlled Spencer for the majority of the fight.
" Man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated "
- Hemingway
by Hellsing on Jun 14, 2009 9:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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