Historical Analysis: Penn vs. Machida in the Octagon vs. Ring
B.J. Penn recently chimed in with his thoughts on the Lyoto Machida vs. Rashad Evans UFC 98 Light Heavyweight title bout. As expected, Penn comes off as overly confident that he is a better fighter and that Machida wasn't able to implement the same type of skills on him in their K-1 Hero's bout back in March of 2005.
In a recent fanpost by FlyByKnight, Penn was considered the most damaging opponent of all of Lyoto's encounters in his career. He was able to land 57.14% of his strikes in the matchup, which is on par with Penn's reputation as a high-level striker.
Joshua Stein has an article up over at MMAOpinion.com that tries to look at the historical matchup between Penn and Machida and figure out if there is a specific gameplan Penn used in order to effectively outstrike Machida.
His style of karate, as the UFC fans know it, is conducive to winning round after round, but there was a time when an aggressive fighter with good head movement (which B.J. is) could do some damage and effectively score points in the eyes of the judges. No such fighter has opposed Machida in the UFC, and perhaps no fighter exists (short of Anderson Silva, who’s head movement, in my opinion, is better than all of Machida’s potential opposition).
The other note is that, as a fighter, Penn is smaller and quicker than most of the guys that Machida has fought lately. This makes for a much more difficult matchup for the Brazilian, as his precision striking is tested.
While I'll agree that Penn's precision striking and head movement played a role in his success against Machida, I'm a bit hesitant to believe he was quicker than Machida in that matchup. After all, Penn at 205 lbs. isn't the Penn of 155 lbs., but he does still possess gifted striking skills that pepper Machida throughout the matchup.
One of the other problems with the Machida vs. Penn fight that I've always argued is that Machida's movement in the ring is rather disadvantageous to his style. Penn was able to corner Machida on mulitple occasions in the matchup and land quite a few shots. Machida was able to flurry short shots and uppercuts to Penn's granite chin as he backpedaled into the turnbuckle, but he was ultimately stuck once he hit the corner. We rarely talk about how a fighter coming from a ring to a cage is in an advantageous position, but Machida is one of those fighters. The ring was a place in which Machida could be cut off whereas the cage allows him to fully move free from being cornered unless his opponent is awfully quick to hold him in position.
Even in Machida's bout with Rich Franklin, Franklin was able to corner Machida. The difference was that Machida landed a stiff blow to Franklin's chin that ended the bout with Franklin crumpled to the mat while Machida's back was in the corner.
Regardless of these observations, Machida is substantially a better fighter from those days in K-1 Hero's. It's hard to knock Penn's success, even in defeat, against Machida back in 2005. I'm very hesitant to think Penn stands a chance today in the cage.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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I don’t see anything wrong with what Penn said – he has every right to feel good about his fight with Machida – granted they are both different fighters now and perhaps if they were to fight again it would be different – but what did you expect Penn to say?
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Honestly, I don’t think he said anything ridiculous. Foot in mouth? Nah… changed.
I think what Penn said regarding the fight was pretty solid. I still think, in my opinion, that Machida has an easier time in the cage, just because of the inability of Penn to corner him. I think it’s one of those things in MMA that people rarely say about a guy moving from a ring to a cage, but Machida’s style suits it.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 1, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you mean to say
that it’s one of the rare instances where a STRIKER benefits from making the switch to a cage?
Because I hear people saying “Fighter X in a cage (w/ elbows) is a scary thought!” all the time. Especially when you’re talking about top- control oriented fighters, like Arona, King Mo, JZ, Alvarez, etc.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on Jun 1, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think when it comes to the advantages of the rules, there are some big differences.
I’m talking about the differences in Machida’s style in a cage vs. ring. Watching the Penn vs. Machida fight, Machida backs into the corner quite a bit, and B.J. definitely tries to land big punches as he closes Machida into that corner.
In the cage, it’d be unbelievably tough to implement that same gameplan. Because of that, I don’t know if we can take much from the Penn vs. Machida fight of the past. Sure, Penn has quick striking and a granite chin, but with more area to move, I think Machida could potentially avoid a lot of the damage he suffered in the K-1 fight.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 1, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm… my title is misleading as well. In my opinion, it’d go the same but be tougher for Penn.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 1, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Sllllllllllllllllllluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrkkkkkkkkkkkk...
That is the sound of BJ Penn moving up to 205.
Keep firing Assholes!
This is a dream competition for me. I drink as much coffee as I want, and eventually I hallucinate.
Machida’s back wasn’t to the corner – he rocked Franklin with the same catch&cross he used against Rashad & Hogar, then backed Rich to the ropes & kneed him out.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 2, 2009 12:14 AM EDT reply actions
Correct, but in the instance in which he caught Rich, he was backing toward the corner. Essentially what I’m saying is, the gameplan against Machida in the ring is fighters tried to cut him off. It didn’t work for Frankin, but Penn had some success doing so.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions
All Penn did was windmill punches
I’m so tired of people saying Penn did so well against Machida. He didn’t. He was throwing windmill, off balance punches the whole fight and TWO (2) landed flush on Machida. But Penn was almost falling over when he landed them and they probably didn’t have the power he normally would have had. Machida was very green in this fight he spent most of it pushing Penn against the ropes. Trying to compare the Machida from back then with the Machida of today is a completely different story. Machida has improved by leaps and bounds. I can’t say the same about Penn.
I’m not comparing the two at all.
In fact, my overall point is that Machida is way better in the cage because of his free movement without fear of being cut off in the ring. Stein’s article is trying to figure out why Penn was successful, and he has his own ideas on that. I simply wanted to discuss those ideas.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I definitely agree with this, good analysis.
I am always happy to see an article about how BJ Penn is not who he though he was.
Too bad this post got overshadowed.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
The problem is that most people reading it are believing I’m trying to make some grand analysis that:
A. This fight should happen again
B. I’m comparing Machida of new with Machida of old
C. I’m trying to say Penn could beat Machida
I’m saying NONE of these things. The article is analyzing the past fight, and with the help of some other work on the web, trying to analyze what Penn did so well that allowed him to at least WIN A ROUND against Machida.
The above commenter suggests that windmill punches were mostly thrown by Penn, and I wouldn’t disagree, but then goes on to say I’m comparing the two Machidas. Far from it. I’m simply stating that I think Machida is one of those fighters that’s completely at an advantage when he moved from the ring to the cage. Most fighters see a disadvantage as they used to use the ring to cut off their opponents, but Machida’s backpedaling style helps him in that case.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I give props to Penn for doing as well as he did back then, but another fight, now in the cage, would, end up with Penn having less success and Machida winning.
I love me some Sexyama!
I agree, and this is basically the point of the article. To debunk all these hopes and dreams that BJ’s battle with Machida can somehow show us a glimpse of how to beat Machida.
In the cage, BJ gets clowned even worse IMO.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Correction
Penn weighed in at 187 and Machida at 215, IIRC.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Correction of what?
Penn was still fighting at LHW. My point is that fighting at the higher weight class makes him slower. It doesn’t really matter what he weighed in at. He was fatter.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
WOW.
Lamest reaction to being called on a mistake ever. Let’s go to the tape:
“Penn at 205 lbs. isn’t the Penn of 155 lbs.”
In what sense was he “at” 205lbs.? He was fighting a guy who often fights at 205? And if he wasn’t the same Penn AT 187, was Machida the same fighter at 215?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
He was fighting in a 205 lb. weight class bout. That’s all I was saying. Penn obviously didn’t come in at that weight, but the overall point is that Penn was heavier.
The article isn’t critiquing the same style at 187 vs. 155 vs. any other weight for Penn or Machida at 215. It’s critiquing the fact that some fans believe Penn was just way more effective than anyone. While I agree that his striking was precise and he has always had that ability, I think the ring vs. cage aspect has a lot to do with it. Machida got cornered quite a few times, and moving to the cage, it’s more advantageous for him.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Digging yourself deeper? Strange tactic.
“[The article is] critiquing the fact that some fans believe Penn was just way more effective than anyone.”
You can talk about your overall point if you like, and I’ll be happy to disagree: it’s absolutely true that Penn was “more effective than anyone” else at fighting Machida because he actually managed to hit him more than half the time – something nobody else has done. If hitting Machida when nobody else can even get close to him isn’t more effective, I question your understanding of the words “more” and “effective.”
But that doesn’t change the fact that what you said to support that (erroneous) argument is a mischaracterization of the facts:
“I’m a bit hesitant to believe he was quicker than Machida in that matchup. After all, Penn at 205 lbs. isn’t the Penn of 155 lbs.”
Because in that fight Penn “at 205” isn’t Penn at 205, and Lyoto at 205 isn’t Lyoto at 205 either. And saying:
“He was fighting in a 205 lb. weight class bout”
…is even less true. That was a catch-weight fight. I looked it up and according to Hero’s, Machida came in at 102kilos: that’s 224.8 pounds. BJ had just won a fight at 185 against a Gracie (and was about to win another) and 2 fights at 170 (one for the belt) in the previous years and a half. Lyoto came in 19 pounds over 205, his normal weight class. They were both heavier than usual. Why does that slow down BJ more than it slows down Machida?
Slice it however you like, but BJ was quicker than Machida, and pretending that BJ a) was in the habit of fighting at 155 at the time (he wasn’t), b) weighed 205 in that fight, or c) was facing a fighter that weighed 205 or even came in at his normal weight is just complete bologna.
You really hate admitting when you’re wrong, don’t you? You should try it – it’s very freeing.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
Ugh…
I’m not against the stance that Penn was more effective than anyone. The article is merely giving a couple of more options as to why. Penn’s striking is obviously far better than a lot of Machida’s opponents. I have no doubt that Penn’s overall skillset as being an elite striker was a solid reason behind why he was more effective than anyone else. I’m not arguing that. I’m saying that the ring gave Penn more of an advantage because my stance is that the cage is helping Machida a lot in making him even more elusive. This isn’t some generalization that Machida sucks in the ring, but is good in the cage. He’s great in both arenas, but I think the cage makes him even more elusive to an already very elusive fighter when he moved from ring to cage.
I was merely stating it was a 205 lb. weight class bout. If I was wrong, and it was a catchweight, then you are correct.
You’re probably right in critiquing my argument as far as speed. The overall argument I’m making is the ring vs. cage aspect of the analysis. I don’t hate admitting I’m wrong. I don’t understand why people have to make this some sort of debate as to how I’m terribly wrong. Opinions are opinions. I don’t need statements like this:
You really hate admitting when you’re wrong, don’t you? You should try it – it’s very freeing
I admit I’m wrong quite a bit. When you are in the whole giving people betting advice and picking fights, it comes up. Admitting I’m wrong still comes with some sort of debate. You make solid points, etc. I respect that, but then saying a condescending remark, come on man, keep with the debate of the argument. We can agree to disagree, and you can rip apart my analysis and I’ll give you an answer. I think that’s fair.
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by Leland Roling on Jun 2, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Penn
makes me sick. I love him…….and hate him.
When motivated and properly trained he is one of the nastiest fighters on Earth. Unfortunately that’s once every third fight.
If you gave BJs talent to Nick Diaz, he would be the most feared fighter in the world.
and that still amazes me and reinforces my love for watching him fight
when I think about it the same thing happened in the Matt Hughes rematch – anyone else would have tapped or been KO’d by all those elbows and BJ didn’t
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007

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