Who Will Make the UFC Hall of Fame?
by Cannon Jacques on May 7, 2009 11:00 PM EDT
in News
154 comments
On July 10, as part of the UFC 100 festivities, two new members will be inducted into the UFC Hall of Fame. They will join Royce Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Randy Couture, and Mark Coleman as the sixth and seventh members. There are some early favorites, including Chuck Liddell, Charles "Mask" Lewis, and Evan Tanner. All are certainly deserving of the honor though I'm lukewarm to idea of adding Liddell since he's still a large part of the current UFC landscape. However, one thing is quite apparent based on list of names already inhabiting the UFC Hall: hopefuls need not retire.
I have no real problem with how the UFC runs its own Hall of Fame. Some take exception to the fact that the UFC is unlikely to induct those who aren't currently friendly with the organization. Seriously? If Tito Ortiz believes it imperative to blast the UFC and Dana White at every opportunity, he has effectively barred himself from consideration. The same goes for any other like-minded, would-be inductees; these are the rules of the game. The purest of sportsmen may deem the situation shameful, but halls of fame aren't always about the "pure sport." Matter of fact, accomplishments are often somewhat discounted due to outside factors. Pete Rose is not in the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame. I think that fact says a lot.
I'm quite confident that two deserving parties will soon be part of the Hall of Fame. Of course, some will be satisfied by the outcome, and some won't. This is all well and good, but the speculative side of me wonders who will join this exclusive group further down the road - five, ten, or more years? Matt Hughes should definitely get in (maybe sooner than one might imagine). Anderson Silva and Georges St. Pierre are a couple of guys who may have already done enough to get in. What do you think? Putting the politics and such aside for a moment, who are the fighters or non-fighting contributors who have already accomplished enough to warrant induction into the UFC Hall of Fame?
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Evan Tanner better be one of the 2 guys inducted, or there’s something seriously wrong with Zuffa.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 7, 2009 10:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What makes Tanner an early favorite?
I enjoyed watching Evan fight but if he didn’t pass away would anyone consider him as a future HOF’er?
by The Legend on May 7, 2009 10:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think your username sums up Evan Tanner’s career pretty nicely.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 7, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2/3 of the list are guys that died in the past year in tragic circumstances. Grief is clouding people’s judgment.
by toxic on May 7, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is a legitimate warrior-poet – most fighters just fight. Tanner did it as part of his experience in what in means to be alive. Even if he didn’t have the greatest record, he is one of the best persons ever to fight in the UFC. He’s the last of the self-trained fighters and a role model, fighter or not. He’s a better person than I’ll ever be.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. Evan Tanner was an extraordinary dude. I can only hope to be half the man he was. At the same time, does being a fucking respected bad ass qualify for HOF induction? If we take out the fact that the guy died young, does he warrant HOF induction? No way in hell I would dispute it if he got it, but honestly, I don’t think his accomplishments warrant it.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was Tanner as dominant or popular at any point in time as say Chuck Liddell? No, but he did a lot in the UFC before it really took off. Judging accomplishments is difficult, because they’re often different in nature. Since the UFC really doesn’t have a clear set of criteria, I think Tanner is deserving. As themachiavellian said, the self-training is impressive when you consider just how far it got him.
by Cannon Jacques on May 7, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If going strictly by his accomplishments, then now. But for me, at least, it should be more than that. Couture has a .66 W-L, but always impresses as the underdog. Royce defeated people who largely didn’t even know what they were doing, but he laid the foundation for the UFC. Tanner was nearly completely self-taught, always respected his opponent, and was a great person. He overcame alcoholism to fight again – that is a greater victory than most any other fighter as had.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fuck it. You convinced me. Fuck in ring accomplishments. Stick him in there.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, is that sarcasm? I can’t really tell.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hah, no I’m actually serious. fuck the fact that he was never really a top level fighter. the guy was HUGELY respected and everyone in the community — fighters and fans alike — for the most part would liek to see the guy in there.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couture also won 8 billion titles.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 7, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, sir.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 7, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In regards to who has already done enough to warrant enshrinement somewhere down the line, I would say that Forrest Griffin is a lock when he is done fighting, as well as Rich Franklin. They are still sometime away from retirement, but when talking about future guys like GSP and A Silva, i think Rich and Forrest are both up there as well.
by xDieseLx on May 7, 2009 10:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
The thing about Franklyn too, is that he is very much the company man.
Every time you see the UFC doing something charitable, like visiting troops overseas or a hosptical, etc…its ALWAYS Franklin and Hughes there. Say what you want about those guys, but that says alot to me about what they mean to the UFC and MMA’s relationship with their fans beyond just having accomplished alot in the ring.
by Razreshat on May 8, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tanner should get the first slot...
I wouldn’t be surprised if tank was the 2nd guy…
by Anton Tabuena on May 7, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How is Mask even in consideration for a spot? The guy never fought in the UFC. I realize he was a major figure, but c’mon.
by toxic on May 7, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would require a “builders” category, I guess. Which should eventually include Helio Gracie, if they’re going to go in that direction.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 7, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of HoF have an “other” division – Freddie Roach is in Boxing HoF under “Trainers & Coaches”, Phil Spector is in the Rock & Roll HoF under “Producers”, and so on. Considering how much Mask helped the growth of the sport, finding new talent, it fits.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. When Dana, Joe Silva, Lorenzo, and Marc Ratner are ready to to retire, they should all be inducted as well. But I think an “Other” wing to the HOF should be labeled as such.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s also not forget Jared Shaw.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe they should construct a hall of fame building before we figure this all out anyway
by midwestbred on May 8, 2009 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to nitpick: Freddie Roach is in the “World Boxing Hall of Fame,” but he is not in the revered and time-honored International Boxing Hall of Fame in Canastota, NY. Not yet anyway.
by SC on May 8, 2009 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s two Boxing Halls of Fame? Did not know that…
What’s the difference between the them?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 8, 2009 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If boxing can have two hall of fames why can’t MMA. We should start the BE HOF. I nominate me in the founders/awesome category.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 8, 2009 3:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I nominate Luke in the “looking just like a fighter” category.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 8, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(1) Georges St. Pierre
(2) Anderson Silva
(3) Forrest Griffin
(4) Rich Franklin
(5) BJ Penn
(6) Wanderlei Silva
(7) Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
And I think that’s about it for now. I would also say the winner of the Rampage v. Evans/Machida fight will probably enter this discussion too, but we’ll have to wait and say who that turns out to be.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Doesn’t matter that Silva and Nog haven’t exactly had HOF caliber runs in the UFC thus far. Their accomplishments in PRIDE, an organization which the UFC owns the rights to, more than warrant their induction.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, take out franklin. i had a momentary brain fart and forgot that he has lost every time he has stepped up and fought top competition. the best fighter he’s beaten is yushin okami and that was a close fucking fight that saw okami dominate the thrid round.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
… other than Evan Tanner, a guy you’re touting for the HOF above…
by jebushchrist on May 8, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
-school teachers
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 8, 2009 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sammy Morgan. Kidding.
Frank MIr, if he can rattle off a few wins.
by INGO B on May 7, 2009 10:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd bet on Mask & Tanner
It could be Liddell – further forcing him into retirement.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ll put money on Liddell and Mask. Hughes and Tanner are the only other options and I think either of them would be put in Mask’s place. Liddell is a lock.
by dropkick101 on May 7, 2009 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts exactly.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 7, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm betting on Liddell and Mask, Tanner doesn't make my UFC HoF
What did Tanner really do? Sure, he was champ, but I don’t think his accomplishments qualify.
What Mask and Chuck have did for the sport makes them HoF worthy for sure.
by Dexerion on May 7, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Tanner was a B-level fighter at best, but he was a better human than most people even try to be. I think his decency as a person, in and out the cage, should be honored. It’ll balance Dana’s negative karma.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
B level?
B level is someone who barely manages to hang at the top of the sport. Evan fought at the top levels of MMA in the states and Japan for over a decade and won a UFC title.
I can see arguing that he wasn’t Hall of Fame, but he was A level.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 7, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah – I always thought A-level was elite, and B just under that. Tanner was great, certainly, but not elite, so I figured B.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 8, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would throw him in the middle. Make a B+ category. He was one of those guys that, in his prime, kicked the shit out of people and usually only lost to real good top-level fighters. He was better than your standard B level guy but he wasn’t elite.
BTW, for me:
A level is the top level championship guys and constant contenders, which would make guys like Anderson, GSP, and Fedor A+ motherfuckers.
B level are the guys who are capable of fighting in big organizations and might even hold a win or two against a top level guy but aren’t really capable of winning a title or being a consistent contender. B+ would be those guys who will beat every other mid-level guy but can’t seem to beat any of the top guys.
Then you get your C level guys who can not compete in a place like the UFC.
by dropkick101 on May 8, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
- 6 on the all time list for most fights – 17
- 6 on the all time list for most wins – 11 ( by stoppage)
Middleweight champion
Those are HOF-worthy stats to me.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 7, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was a number sign in front of those 6’s.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 7, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and that should say 9 by stoppage. Dammit.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 7, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
They should induct him for his success in MMA alone. He held titles in other orgs including the UFC and is a pioneer of the game. That’s what Tanner really did.
by Don't say that Rashad on May 7, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way that he used elbows on the ground really changed ground fighting, and he was among the first to combine striking, jiu jitsu and wrestling in one fluid package (rather than shifting back and forth – “now I’m striking; now I’m shooting for a single…”). He was never the best at any one skill, which I think ultimately hurt him, but he was very good at all of them and his heart was inspirational to a whole generation of younger fighters. I think he should be in on merit, though I know many disagree. I would have voted him in even if he had retired instead of passing.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 8, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evan Tanner would be nice.
by Don't say that Rashad on May 7, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Pat Miletich should be in
when it comes to what he did in the octagon and his work outside. Just my personal opinion, and I know it’s not gonna happen due to his connection to WAMMA.
by Lopax on May 7, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that coaching the new generation of fighters should be a key factor...
But he was a boring fighter bro
by beersnbroads on May 7, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but he was also a very important fighter.
by FRANKIE on May 8, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boring fighter? Yes
but a good one and what he did in the UFC at the time was impressive. And like you said, the amount and quality of fighters he has produced from his camp is pretty impressive. Plus, he was one of the first members of the MMA society I can remember to go out and fight the attacks of McCain and the public who thought this sport was just “human cock fighting”. As far as I’m concerned the guy is a great ambassador of the sport, and has done just as much out of the ring, as he did in it.
by Lopax on May 8, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain was a key benefactor in the creation of MMA as we know it. It was cockfighting at the time and if it wasn't for the pressure he put on MMA, it wouldn't be a real sport today
by beersnbroads on May 8, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard he also invented the internets.
by mythbuster on May 8, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know…
but while we’re giving John McCain credit for the UFC, might as well give him the internet too.
Next time, turn on your sarcasm detector.
by mythbuster on May 8, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain invented that too…
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he should be too.
It shouldn’t stop ZUFFA just because they are no longer associated with a fighter (Tito Ortiz) or don’t have the same views. If they earned it, they should get it. They should induct Tito and re-sign him. Wonder if he could make middleweight?
by Wookalarman on May 8, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But like it says in the article, they’re not going to put someone in when that person is currently going around badmouthing them every chance they get..
So that knocks out MIlitetch and Tito, for now.
Should they probably get in, eventually? Yes. But it would be dumb for the UFC to recognize them when all they are currently doing is badmouthing the UFC. Why give them the platform or the publicity?
by Phildo on May 8, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add Don Frye to that list…
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 8, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don frye
ultimate ultimate winner. ufc 8 winner. one of the first cross-trained mixed martial artists (wrestling, judo, boxing).
by dr. ransom on May 7, 2009 11:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There are quite a few guys who need to be in, the HOF debate would be a lot simpler if the UFC took the time to play catch up and inducted about 10 guys in…then we can keep up with the times.
by kyfm621 on May 7, 2009 11:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d be surprised if its not Miletich, Kerr, & Frye
by Psygone on May 7, 2009 11:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mo Smith would be an awesome add, but not enough people recognize the man, and his record is fairly tarnished for a man as accomplished as he is
by beersnbroads on May 8, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok brain fart..
of course he’s in.. hahahaha.
so i guess its just tanner, chuck, mask, …or tank?
by Anton Tabuena on May 7, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tank has an ugly record sure..
but he has done a lot for the sport.. 1st to wear gloves, made the ufc guys add new rules, like fish hooks etc..
by Anton Tabuena on May 7, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Art Jimmerson pioneered glove-wearing?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 7, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he is in, Dan Severn introduced to the world the FEAR OF THE GERMAN!!
by spectaa on May 7, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What if?
What if Mir beats Lesnar and can then defend the title a couple more times. He was a certified bad mofo before his accident and has already beaten Big Nog and Lesnar once.
by donkeypunch on May 7, 2009 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No way, HOF is way out of this league YET.
by spectaa on May 7, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if Mir goes on a beast of a streak. If he wins the title by finishing Lesnar then holds the belt and defends it for maybe 5-6 fights. If he finishes most of his title defense’ with stoppages and he continues his announcing, you could then make a case for him.
by Riney on May 8, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank Shamrock
was the greatest champ after Royce Gracie but politics will prevent his being recognized.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 7, 2009 11:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If the UFC were to even invite Frank into the HOF would he even accept it? I am not sure.
by The Legend on May 8, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frank to me is one of those guys whose legacy in the sport is pretty towering, but so much of it was smoke and mirrors. That’s not a detraction; it’s a recognition of the fact that Frank might be among the best showmen and salesmen (with a dash of conman) in the history of MMA. It’s hard to judge his true accomplishments, because the legend that he helped create keeps getting in the way. I think Ali is kind of like that – though he is definitively among the greatest boxers ever – in that the legend starts rewriting the past almost as soon as things happen.
Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be in. Just means I have a lot of trouble thinking clearly about Frank’s qualifications.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 8, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’m glad there are people here that can say the things I think without me having to go to all the trouble of actually typing it all out.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 8, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love it when that happens. AJB’s pretty good at it.
by subo on May 8, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a big ahead of the curve to worry about, but I’m afraid of the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame problem; they banged out all the really obvious people in the first decade, and now they have one or two bands that deserve it reaching eligibility each year, and then they toss any band with any sort of tenuous claim to fame in there to fill slots (they are trying to claim jazz as rock n roll now).
I realize its a young sport, but there ought to be a 5 year from the last fight rule so that people can approach a fighter with some perspective. Two guys who died in the past year + a superstar who might have retired last month is not a list designed for honoring the best of the best.
by toxic on May 7, 2009 11:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It is easy to discredit your statement regarding personality and conduct outside of the sport being a determinant in Hall of Fame-ness…..
Royce – steroids in the UFC (actually that was prob after his induction)
Ken Shamrock – douchebag that does Dbol and has only a fraction of his cerebral cortex activated.. plus his coaching (or lack thereof) and personality on TUF still amazes me
As far as my vote, it goes to Bas Rutten and Mark Kerr. Bas is a pivotal player in regards to (aside from having some of the sickest fights ever while MMA was slowly evolving and unifying, and being UFC heavyweight champ): coaching/ commentating/ containing the vat of MMA knowledge. And Mark Kerr is an example of someone who literally dedicated their body and soul to the sport, and made some significant accomplishments as a result, but is not as highly respected as he should be. He should get a seperate award if he still dates that miserable woman he was dating during the filming of his movie.
But we all know Chuck and Hughes will probably get it. Hell, if the qualifications for the Hall of Fame are just about general significance in the sport, then Forrest should get one since Dana declared TUF 1/ his fight with Bonnar as what globalized MMA forever
by beersnbroads on May 7, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mark Kerr is the opposite of a Hall of Famer. He wasted his talent on drugs and never accomplished his goals. How can he be a HOF’er?
by Jonathan Snowden on May 8, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He made people defend ground and pound like Royce made people defend against BJJ. I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer either, but he’s still a pioneer.
by subo on May 8, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry
but if it was the “MMA Hall of Fame”, maybe I would consider Mark Kerr. However, I don’t think I could induct someone into the UFC Hall of Fame, who only competed in 2 UFC events. I know he won the Heavyweight tournament both times he competed, but it’s not enough for me.
Sadly, the same goes for Rutten. If it was the “MMA Hall of Fame”, he would be a shoe in. Yet the UFC Hall of Fame…I don’t think so.
by Lopax on May 8, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not what I said, and that’s certainly not what I meant. Outside factors CAN affect who is in and who is not. They don’t have to, but they often do. It’s the UFC’s show to run. I can understand them not putting in Frank Shamrock or Tito at this point.
by Cannon Jacques on May 8, 2009 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really can’t bring myself to care about the UFC Hall of Fame. It’s an organizational thing that’s far more equivalent to the WWE Hall of Fame than it is to the Baseball Hall of Fame (which is not the MLB HoF, by the way). I’d be much more interested in an MMA Hall of Fame.
Wow, that’s a lot of “Hall of Fame.”
by FRANKIE on May 7, 2009 11:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I liked Evan, but aside from his tragic death, what separates him from Dave Menne? And is anyone clamoring for Menne to be in the UFC Hall of Fame?
Frank Shamrock in a perfect world, followed by Pat Miletich.
Really, there aren’t many candidates. Do you really want to include active fighters? If so, Tito and Chuck are the next two most deserving candidates, followed by Matt Hughes.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 8, 2009 12:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Look at the top of the thread – Tanner is more deserving than Menne because of what he did outside the ring as well as inside. To be a HoF’er (ideally) should be about more than a win-loss record.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 8, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Menne – 6 UFC fights, 2 wins
Tanner – 17 UFC fight, 11 wins
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 8, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, if you want to focus on the UFC only. Tanner beat up journeyman and low level fighters in the Octagon while Menne did it for Monte Cox. Of course, if that is the case, why were people talking about Pancrase to bolster Tanner’s case?
Menne’s best wins: Lytle, Pele, Newton, Iha
Tanner’s Best Wins: Herring, Baroni, Lawler
Both were guys that were generally overmatched against the better fighters, but in his prime, Menne has the better wins.
This is based on overall careers. Neither is a Hall of Famer. You’re diluting the Hall of Fame pretty quickly if a fighter like Evan gets in.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 8, 2009 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the UFC Hall of Fame. UFC.
http://www.fourouncestofreedom.com
by Beer Monster on May 8, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How does that work though? Does the UFC include accomplishments from other organizations, especially PRIDE? Will Wanderlei Silva take a place in the Hall based on his dubious UFC credentials? Or will they recognize his contributions to the sport as a whole?
Clearly Zuffa has the platform to recognize the best and most deserving fighters out there. I’d like to see them use it to make theirs a legitimate HOF for the sport. I think they are already doing this. Ken Shamrock is 7-6-2 in the Octagon- not HOF numbers. But it is only when you look at the broader picture that he becomes a significant figure.
Take Mark Coleman as another example. 6-4 in the UFC. What helped him get in was winning the Pride Grand Prix. I think they are already looking at the total picture. And they need to. Otherwise, Tanner is followed by Leben and the path to the Hall of Mediocrity has begun.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 8, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the UFC
Leben – 8-4 win rate of .666
Tanner – 11-6 win rate of .647
Yep. Leben for HoF.
Look, I know Tanner had a title run. And yeah, he was self-trained. And an interesting dude. But I want the HoF to be focused on accomplishments in fights only. Like every interesting or good dude shouldn’t get in, and I do think we’re seeing some pretty clouded judgment because the guy died. If hall of fames are about being a good dude than the MLB HoF needs to get to work on bouncing guys like Ty Cobb who were insufferable assholes.
None of this is meant as disrespect to Tanner but I just think he has gained a lot of value in HoF discussions because of his tragic passing.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 8, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want the HoF to be focused on accomplishments in fights only.
I think it’s too late for that. Shamrock is already in.
by FRANKIE on May 8, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 8, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What separates him from Dave Menne?
For starters, how about 11 wins in the Octagon versus 2 wins for Menne?
by Steve4192 on May 8, 2009 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never mind. Beer Monster beat me to it.
by Steve4192 on May 8, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Short List:
Matt Hughes (pending loss)
Chuck Liddell
Mask
Evan Tanner
Keep firing Assholes!
It must be nice to have such low standards.
by Ubernoober on May 8, 2009 12:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i’d like see don frye considered….he had a good run in the ufc!
by visionary on May 8, 2009 12:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
“Dana White can go pound sand up his ass” — Don Frye
yeah…not looking very likely on that one…
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 8, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tanner
miletich
frye
pulver
any combo of those four would be great in my opinion
and i think tito deserves a nod also. i’d say he more than earned it. Tito v Chuck II still holds the highest buy rate for a UFC PPV. Tito was the face of the UFC, and arguably one of the most popular fighters to date. and i’m not even a fan of his.
by MACH on May 8, 2009 12:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn i was reading the thread and I was going to post that when I got to the bottom.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 8, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree….big john should be up for consideration too!
by visionary on May 8, 2009 1:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right now the majority or people/fighters that are either in the HOF or in consideration for inclusion are in there for a combination of 1) contributions to the sport 2) marketing reasons 3) loyalty. Skill as a fighter thus far as been a minor factor. I could see them inducting Liddell as a set up for a future come back.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 8, 2009 2:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
WTF?
Are you saying Royce/Shamrock/Severn/Couture/Coleman aren’t in the HOF based on merit?
by Steve4192 on May 8, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Liddell is the only sure thing
Look, there are only 5 people total in the Hall Of Fame right now. I think we all agree that anyone they add should either be in the twilight of their career or their career should already be over, but beyond that, they still need to focus on the most important people not already in there. They can get around to Evan Tanner and Mask later, when the HoF is more complete. Evan Tanner was a great human being and he was a Champion, but he did not significantly help to evolve or popularize the sport the way Tank Abbot or Matt Hughes did.
I’m not a big Matt Hughes fan, but I’m guessing it will be him and Liddell.
by Chromium on May 8, 2009 3:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Hughes will depend on the outcome of his fight. If he gets beaten badly again he will probably retire and go into the HOF. If he wins he will demand a rematch with GSP and more likely end up fighting Alves after he loses.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 8, 2009 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it will definately be Matt Hughes and Chuck Liddell.
by Marcus213 on May 8, 2009 3:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Evan Tanner, Matt Hughes, Chuck Liddell, Jens Pulver. It’s too soon for GSP and Anderson Silva. I personally think it will be Evan Tanner and Chuck Liddell. Liddell will announce his retirement and like Couture, will later come back and fight again for an exciting PPV draw.
by GetItOn on May 8, 2009 4:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The purest of sportsmen may deem the situation shameful, but halls of fame aren’t always about the “pure sport.” Matter of fact, accomplishments are often somewhat discounted due to outside factors.
Outside factors? Sure, like criminal convictions and the like. Legitimate criticism of Dana should hardly warrant his non addition. A local football club near me had one of the best players ever and he got caught cheating with the captains wife. He was still added to the club hall of fame based on his contribution to the club. You would imagine a merit based approach to a HOF would be the best way to go. Tito or Liddell are the logical choices due to their involvement in building the UFC as well as their impressive records. Tanner? Mask? Cmon, if they didnt die we wouldnt be talking about them.
by GeeDub on May 8, 2009 5:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mask probably did more than 99% of all fighters.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 8, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about the other tapout guys? Why not induct them?
by GeeDub on May 8, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How much time passed between
that guy cheating with the captain’s wife and his induction?
Many of those guys who are probably outside of consideration right now will probably one day be put in after the hard feelings have passed because they have retired, etc…
There are reasons why most other major sports have a mandatory period between when a person’s career ends and when they are first eligible for induction.
by Razreshat on May 8, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points. I dont know exactly how long it was but it was a couple of years in the example I gave. They doesnt induct guys before they retire and the cheater still played for at least 1 or 2 more years before retiring. But you’re right, if they were to award it to Tito now, it would be kinda awkward.
by GeeDub on May 8, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying the UFC’s means for determining additions to the Hall is right or wrong. It’s just the way it is, and it’s not much different that the other systems where people are making value judgments. It’s not like you get in at a certain win total or percentage. It’s all very subjective. Politics are always present. If you don’t like the UFC’s version, you can start your own. I’m sure another Hall of fame is quite likely for MMA. Basically, it’s the UFC’s deal and they can contort it how they want.
by Cannon Jacques on May 8, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why it’s totally meaningless.
by FRANKIE on May 8, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any HOF or the UFC’s in particular?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
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by Richard Wade on May 9, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pete Rose is not in the Major League Baseball Hall of Fame.
rose isnt in the hall for baseball because the hall recognizes the list of banned players in baseball and does not offer eligibility for any of them. it is independent of major league baseball, you know.
what all the legit halls have are transparent voting usually done by respected sports journalists and ex-players. the ufc doesnt have that. its about as meaningful as the wwe hall of fame.
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 8:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know the history of the Baseball HOF
but did it start as a completely transparent system, or did it eventually become that?
Sure, the UFC Hall of Fame currently is an inside operation, but I would be amazed if it isn’t expanded, changed and somehow becomes the genesis of an MMA Hall of Fame someday that incorporates fighters from across the MMA landscape.
Might be decades down the line, but those other sports HOFs didn’t go from 0 to 60 overnight either.
by Razreshat on May 8, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was always independant of MLB and the two leagues but obviously has measures to make sure it stays within good graces. still pete rose isnt out because he spoke badly of giamatti. hes out because he gambled on baseball, including his own team, and thats the biggest no no there is.
it has been transparent since the start. you can see the voting numbers for honus wagner and cristy mathewson. some leagues do own the halls – nfl owns the hof in canton. again, they have transparent processes and the votes are generally by sportswriters.
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I may have screwed up in terms of terminology, but I think the point stands. The point is not that Rose badmouthed the commissioner; the point is that he’s not in though his accomplishments on the field warrant his inclusion. It’s not exactly the same situation, but it’s somewhat similar.
I think the Baseball Hall is handicapped by the whims of all the crazy baseball writers. There are too many and the voters are eligible for life if I’m not mistaken.
by Cannon Jacques on May 8, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
accomplishments warrant inclusion but the negatives warrant exclusion. what rose did wasnt a minor issue. its the greatest sin possible. its actually another plus for cooperstown; coleman threw fights and hes still in the discussion to be in the hall. shamrock definitely was in thrown fights, though both men had those generally in japan.
i dont think its handicapped by anyone. how many guys dont get in that should without serious argument? blyleven? santo? rice? maybe they dont belong. hall of very good and everything like that
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not saying Pete Rose should be in, just that he’s not though he accomplished a lot as a player. You’re probably right in that most of the deserving get in, eventually. Many of the voters have ridiculous standards like never voting for a first ballot applicant though the person should get in by most standards.
Personally, I’d like to know that there are some basic standards that must be met, but it’s not my call. Hall of Fame talk is fun to engage in, in my opinion, but politics and the like often run counter to actual bodies of work.
by Cannon Jacques on May 8, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and what im saying is that there are reasons for exclusion to go along with reasons for inclusion. if ken shamrock took a blatant dive and went to prison and the ufc removed him from their hall of fame, would anyone blame them?
your points about politics here and elsewhere are why the ufc hall of fame is absurd on its face. its the hall of dudes who won early ufcs and dead people dana liked. 100 years from now most of these guys we take as being important probably wont be. evan tanner would be a joke, lol
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i should also note that i doubt the ufc will ever recognize guys that either fought for them for short periods or not at all. vovchanchin and sakuraba would belong in a hall of fame of MMA but theres no reason for them to allow it, just like the pro baseball hall of fame doesnt recognize japanese players. the only one i would care about in any sense would probably be meltzers
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys to be inducted at UFC 100
Mask
Tanner
Guys that should be in there soon.
Chuck
Hughes
Tito
Pulver
Future HOF’s
Anderson Silva
Rampage
GSP
BJ
Wandy
Nog
Lesnar
Forrest
Evans
Shogun ;)
Torres*
*Assuming they will include WEC fighters eventually
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 8, 2009 8:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is missing the bigger point: it’s silly to have a Hall of Fame this early. All of the people in the UFC Hall of Fame are still active fighters! In 15 or 20 years will Dan Severn still be considered a Hall of Famer? Of course not! He’ll just be a guy who fought Gracie and Shamrock. It’s just too early to get a good historical perspective on who is important enough to warrant HOF inclusion.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 8, 2009 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
tbh this is basically right. what severn has done to deserve getting in is less than what frye did. its a can of worms – why not keith hackney? a fraud like ruas?
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Frye won two tournaments.
Severn also won two tournaments AND a superfight title.
Frye was great, and has a legitimate argument to be in the HOF, but Severn’s got a better UFC resume.
by Steve4192 on May 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
frye beat better fighters in the tournaments he participated in. the guy who beat him at ufc 10 where he was a finalist is the same guy that mugged severn for the ken shamrock memorial belt.
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Severn had no control over who was in those tournaments. All a fighter can do is the beat the guys put in front of him. Besides, I disagree that Severn’s tournaments were easier.
Severn won UU95 by beating Taktarov, Abbott, & Varlens.
Frye won UU96 by beating Goodridge, Abbott, & Hall.
Abbott=Abbott, Taktarov>Goodridge & Varlens>Hall IMO.
Severn won UFC 5 by beating Charles, Taktarov & Beneteau.
Frye won UFC 8 by beating Ramirez, Adkins, & Goodridge.
Once again, Taktarov>Goodridge while the other four guys are just filler.
by Steve4192 on May 8, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
goodridge almost killed taktarov when they got to fight. i dont consider them even equals. and whether or not he had no control doesnt matter. ninjitsu guy didnt have any control over royce and ken dropping out at ufc 3. do we rank his victory with the same value as taktarov or ruas…i mean they lost subsequent fights in the ufc too
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
If you look in the baseball HOF or the NFL HOF you will find plenty of guys who look terrible on paper but who were pioneers in the sport. Guys from the 1800s when they were playing without gloves or during the deadball era when 5 home runs would be enough to lead the league. Ditto for the NFL QB’s from the 1940s before he vertical passing game took hold. Guys like Sliding Billy Hamilton and Slingin’ Sammy Baugh look like shit by modern standards, but they were dominant during their era.
Severn was a pioneer. He was the first pure wrestler to excel in the sport and was a dominant force during the NHB era of MMA. Runner up at UFC 4, winner of UFC 5, winner of the first Ultimate-Ultimate tournament, & UFC Superfight champion (precursor to the HW belt).
by Steve4192 on May 8, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can argue against severn based on who isnt in too, you know. look at frye – ufc 8 champ, had a tougher field. ufc 10 finalist. ultimate ultimate 96 champ with a far tougher field of fighters than the first uu. left the ufc because the money sucked and went east. period of time at the top level for severn – like 2 years. you dont see hall of fame fighters elsewhere in sports like that.
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i take that back. you do with boxing heavyweight champions. some purists hate that too.
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As far as I can see, if they can induct Ken Shamrock into the Hall of Fame, there’s more than enough reason for Evan Tanner to be in it.
by StevenGiles on May 8, 2009 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know about that
I dislike Ken greatly, but its hard to deny his position as a founder of this sport. His high level participation in the early UFC’s, starting with UFC 1 is a strong reason for him being in the HOF.
If Ken had his same career starting right now, he would not be worthy of consideration…but its all about timing. He blazed a trail that many others followed and improved upon…but his impact his pretty undeniable.
by Razreshat on May 8, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Many of these are debatable, some would say no non fighters should not be in there, some will never make it because of their relationship with the UFC, and there are others that could be added, but here is a comprehensive list of people who I think could be considered for the UFC Hall of Fame…
Georges St Pierre
Anderson Silva
Chuck Liddell
BJ Penn
Forrest Griffin
Matt Hughes
Tito Ortiz
Frank Shamrock
Pat Miletich
Don Frye
Tank Abbott
Evan Tanner
If Including Pride:
Wanderlei Silva
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
Non Fighters:
Dana White
John McCarthy
Charles “Mask” Lewis
Joe Rogan
Mike Goldberg
Bruce Buffer
Greg Jackson
by metaldome on May 8, 2009 11:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I forgot to add if including pride… Dan Henderson
by metaldome on May 8, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you could also add… Rich Franklin
by metaldome on May 8, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tanner just doesnt belong in the discussion. might as well bring up bustamante. i guess the problem he has is that he didnt liveblog himself getting tore up and becoming an alcoholic prior to becoming a washed up fighter in the ufc and dying on a badly planned trip to the wild. the sort of romantic visions of tanner are crazy.
by nigelzackit on May 8, 2009 11:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we will see Hughes and maybe Chuck. I like the love Pulver is getting to, I don’t think he makes it but I love me some lil evil.
We need a UFC HoF, a non UFC HoF
Frank, Fedor, Bas, Wandy, and a handful of Japanese fighters all deserve some credit.
I think Nog makes it into the UFC HoF.
by Riney on May 8, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
should be eligible now
vitor belfort
chuck liddel
pat miletich
matt hughs
big john
jeremy horn
greg jackson
tapout crew
tito ortiz
wanderlai silva
Rorion Gracie and Art Davie (started original UFC)
Lorenzo and Frank Fertitta (had the insite to make ufc what it is today)
by alves on May 18, 2009 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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