With Jose Canseco Potentially On Board, How Desperate Is DREAM?
by Luke Thomas on May 5, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
in MMA News
Email
Print
If Dave Meltzer is to be believed, the attempted booking of the Canseco vs. Choi fight is an indication matters are getting very desperate:
Desperate times cause people to do desperate things, including the attempt to justify making a complete mockery of the sport in a last-ditch effort to save it on prime-time television. The justification for Choi-Canseco is that if they lose prime time, MMA becomes a minor sport in the country where it first thrived.
Without the governmental regulation American promoters face, Japanese promoters can do as they please. But where does one draw the line on freak-show fights?
The first round of Dream’s entire tournament is based around huge size discrepancies, so it’s not really a "Super Hulk" tournament as much as a "David vs. Goliath" series, where every fight will have at least an 80-pound size differential.
...
The problem is, as ridiculous as this all sounds, fighting is a dangerous business, even for those who are good at it. Putting a 44-year-old novice in a tournament with real all-around fighters, let alone fighters with devastating knockout power, is borderline criminal.
88 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
im a little intrigued by this fight...
i mean its not like hong man choi is impressive at all…the cro cop fight was pretty bad. and i know canseco has zero experience but hey unless u count getting your ass kicked by top level guys than choi doesnt have much either
Choi has a win over Semi Schilt, 6’11" three time, consecutive K1 World GP champ. As well as Mighty Mo, Gary Goodridge and Bob Sapp. I think it’s safe to say Canseco’s going to get killed.
Choi’s the last guy to beat Schilt in K-1, isn’t he?
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
No. Aerts beat him in the final 16 last year. The Choi thing wasn’t really a beating though. It was more of a hometown decision in a fight that should have been a draw (or, given how crappy both guys fought, a double loss).
I always forget about the Dutch Lumberjack. Choi won that fight, but it was a stinker – then again, beating Semy Schilt in K-1 is fucking amazing.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it had a lot to do with the fact that Semmy had never fought anyone bigger than himself in K-1. He seemed very confused about what to do.
Neither one of them would be professional fighters if you shrunk them to 6’5’’. Semy is just slightly more talented than Choi.
I very much disagree
Schilt is awesome. His KO of Hunt was a thing of beauty.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but at the same time you can’t just say that if he were shorter he wouldn’t be a pro fighter. Chances are that if he were shorter he would also be faster, more agile, and would be able to utilize a vaster offensive arsenal as a result.
Moreover, I don’t see what the problem is with using his height to his advantage. I always see people hating on tall fighters for using this gift in their favour, but when is the last time someone hated on Sefo or Hunt for having iron chins or told Hari or Manhoef to get lost because of their ungodly speed?
by ilostmydog on May 5, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cause Semy vs. pretty much anyone is like having a LHW tooling up on a lightweight that’s why. Dude weights 280 pounds. Most of the other guys he fights are 220-240.
Yes, but attributing his success to size alone is shortsighted. Julius Long, Jan Nortje, Bob Sapp, and HMC are all very big men but none can match his success in K-1. Don’t get me wrong, his size is a very big advantage, but if he didn’t have the skills he has to go with it then he would not be a 3x Champ.
And that is the point, Canseco doesn’t need to be in the cage with any professional fighters, he couldn’t even win at celebrity boxing. Putting him in there with a giant sized experienced professional kickboxer is a joke and could be very dangerous to his health.
I never thought I would worry about Jose Canseco’s health but him getting his ass seriously injured or killed in a Japanese MMA ring could hurt the sport.
I doubt it. This fight is SO absurd that even the clueless mainstream media would frame it more as Jose Canseco being desperate for money and attention, and willing to risk health and well-being for a payday. FEG is a strong enough force in Japan that their PR departments can handle any blowback from Canseco being injured in an event thousands of miles away, in front of millions of screaming Japanese fans. No need to be so protectionist.
You don’t think ESPN would pick up on the story “Jose Canseco maimed in MMA fight”? It would hit the mainstream like a rocket. Yes it would be silly and his own damn fault but it would also give the poeple who hate MMA and want to get rid of it even more ammunition and it would definatly make the US news. Everyone else on the card could die and most people in the US wouldn’t notice but if Canseco gets hurt ESPN is going to run a story on it.
Japanese MMA is kind of borderline criminal, all the time, anyway, so what's the big deal.
Let me try to get through this. I’ve been placed between the rock of agreeing with Meltzer and the hard place of defending DREAM. I’m going with the latter.
Japanese MMA is not regulated. There is no drug testing. Weight classes are completely arbitrary. Champions have been known to fight less than half of their fights as champion as title defenses. If two guys sign the contract and agree to fight, you can have one of them in a mask. You can have two hundred pound weight differences between fighters. You can put Wanderlei in his prime against an 0-0 judoka. You can feed Pawel Nastula to the grinder.
It’s Japan. This is nothing new.
They’re trying to sell it to Japanese fans. Fans that don’t give a shit about how much danger Jose Canseco is in, or whether the fighters are on horse steroids and oxycontin, or whether the rest of the world recognizes their champions as the best in the world. The days of PRIDE and any kind of legitimate debate over whether Japan had a better roster than the UFC are over. They have to put on weird, unseemly, goofy ass fights in order to be seen.
Given all of that, at least they’re making it fucking ridiculous instead of pretending to cling to some veil of legitimacy. I say good on DREAM for explicitly acknowledging what we all already know and settling on being entertaining.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A garbled, confused take on things.
Though Meltzer doesn’t phrase it this way, I think there’s a subtle but important difference between his point and yours. Your point (which I don’t intend to disagree with, so please correct me if I’m wrong) is that this sort of thing happens all the time in Japan, the fans don’t mind, and that it’s not illegal, so regardless of whether or not anyone finds it personally distasteful, it’s improper to judge this event (and most of the rest of Japanese MMA) by the same standards as North American MMA. It has a much greater focus on entertainment over sport making it necessary to judge the two by different standards.
I think that Meltzer is making more of a pitch than a straight-forward argument. He’s suggesting that regardless of entertainment or cultural differences, what Dream is doing somehow goes beyond the boundaries of good taste or moral/ethical acceptability and as such should either conduct business differently or not be considered MMA at all. He’s making a “should” argument, as in a real MMA promotion should never put together a fight like this, and therefore only would do so if they were floundering.
Maybe in that respect, the big difference of opinion here is on how large the “MMA Tent” is, to borrow a political analogy. Is the MMA Tent big enough to encompass an entertaining sport AND sports-entertainment? Can we have both ex-pro wrestlers trying to distance themselves from that past AND fighters who moonlight as pro wrestlers (and vice versa)? More to Meltzer’s point, can we have events that attempt to even the playing field (weight classes, regulation, etc.) so that we can honestly attempt to find out who the “best” is between two fighters, alongside events that throw two people into a very uneven playing field just for the entertainment of seeing what happens, and consider all of it “good” (as in valid) MMA?
Personally, I don’t see why not. I’m pretty much with Subo in that the Japanese fans, if this is what they want to see, deserve to be given the product that they are demanding. It may be a “weird, unseemly, goofy ass” fight to me (though I’ll still watch – I just won’t take it seriously at all), but I’m not exactly the target demographic here. No one suggests that lame All-Star games spoil major league sports, and the concern about injury is legitimate but at the same time, these are grown adults in a competition which while ALWAYS dangerous does have SOME rules, and they deserve to make their own decisions on whether or not to put themselves at risk. I think the MMA Tent is big – nay, verily it is friggin huge – and I’d rather that it be the fans of the sport who collectively decide what is and is not MMA by opening or closing their wallets.
I don’t think this really tells us a lot about how DREAM or the Japanese MMA scene or anything beyond what we already knew – Japanese MMA is still MMA, but the way that fights are decided, promoted, and the context in which they’re held are very, very different from the North American context. Personally, I’m glad that MMA has to be regulated in North America, and that the sport has gone the direction that it has. I’m also glad that Japanese MMA exists for people who prefer it; I don’t always pretend to get it, but I don’t have to. It’s all MMA, and it’s all interesting on some level to some fans, so maybe a little less hand-wringing is called for.
And maybe DREAM goes under; and if it does, that tells us that the landscape has shifted a little bit. But we won’t know until we know.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 5, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Oh, just because I don’t think it came across clearly, I was calling MYSELF garbled and confused. How’s that for irony?
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 5, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I was about to say
U hurt my feelingz
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s always seemed to me that Japanese MMA was more interested in selling a product than a sport. Meltzer seems to regard this tournament as some kind of turning point. I don’t. If Bob Sapp can fight an anime character on New Year’s Eve and everyone laughs when he actually wins (‘he made Japanese kids cry! The ratings plummeted!’), then what dignity is left for it to lose?
I don’t consider Japanese MMA the same thing as MMA under the Unified Rules. Never have. The sooner we all come to grips with that, instead of feigning shock, the better.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you referring to Japanese MMA or just certain promotions? I say this because there are promotions and sanctioning bodies in Japan that do treat MMA seriously and primarily as a sport. Cage Force even uses the unified rules. It’s unfair to lump them together under one umbrella.
Doesn’t matter how the promotion sells the fights. It’s important how the fighters view their fights.
It’s pretty dismissive and insulting to imply that because their fights don’t fight your view of MMA, then it should be ignored and downgraded as less important.
It’s rooted in a concern for the fighters. Drug testing is paramount to true competitive legitimacy.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn’t I just read a comment of yours that said the fighters are the ones who sign the fights? I’m sure they are aware of what they doing.
This is similar to the term “freakshow”. It’s the most insulting things that I’ve been reading recently, with people dismissing Hong Man Choi, and Bob Sapp, et cetera.
Fighters don’t train, go through camps, put time into being a fighter, just so people can say that they are nothing but a joke. Very disgusting.
I don’t call fighters freak shows. But if there was some kind of side Olympics that didn’t test for drugs, and they put up better numbers, wouldn’t we all call bullshit?
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
So this whole thing boils down to drug testing?
Are you naive enough to believe that the American athletic commissions are sophisticated enough to catch cheaters?
This is kind of crazy.
They have to try to fake the test here, and athletic commissions do everything in their power to catch cheaters.
Also, the UFC publicized Leben’s positive test in England when they didn’t have to. Hell, they didn’t even have to do the test.
It’s about the longterm health of the fighters.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
"do everything in their power to catch cheaters."
Start blood testing and randomize the testing and we’ll agree.
I'm not saying everyone gets caught, or maybe even most...
…but please ask Sean Sherk, Antonio Silva, and Karo Parisyan if American athletic commissions are sophisticated to catch cheaters, among many others. At least the major athletic commissions here make a decent effort of it, considering their budget.
The matches are freakshows and the fighters know that going in, do you really think that 375lb Bob Sapp thinks his fight with 181lb Ikuhisa Minowa is serious MMA? Guys like Sapp and Choi know what they are getting in to and they know what people think, hell it seems Sapp will do just about anything for a paycheck he’s a entertainer. Choi is fighting a guy who is only getting this fight because he’s a big mouth former baseball star and his first MMA fight was against commedian Bobby Ologun if he dosn’t know this is all for entertainment by now then there is something wrong. Dream isn’t a freakshow and the fighters aren’t freaks but this tournament is the very definition of a freakshow tournament and everyone involved knows it.
North American MMA is often not regulated. There is often no drug testing. Weight classes are completely arbitrary. If two guys sign the contract and agree to fight, you can have one of them be a quadruple amputee. You can have 30 pound weight differences between weigh ins and fight time. You can make a man professional wrestler with 3 fights and 2 wins a heavyweight champion.
Not every state has an athletic commission, that’s why the big shows don’t go to those states and why the UFC is pushing for many US states and Canadian provinces (and England) to start officially santioning/regulating MMA. As far as making anyone a heavyweight champion he did that himself when he won the belt, no one made him a champion.
Seriously...
Is this any different than a cartoon character fighting Bob Sapp? Freakshows and spectatcle matchups have always been a part of Japanese MMA. Royce Gracie and Akebono was a new year’s celebration.
Speaking of the gap in experience level, Mayhem Miller and Bully Beatdown are even worse in this aspect. I think this is a move to infuse a carnival atmosphere into Japanese MMA rather than an act of desperation. I wouldn’t worry about it.
"Is this any different than a cartoon character fighting Bob Sapp?"
Yes. Akihiko Tanaka had very legit wrestling credentials before fighting Sapp.
He was 0-0 and fighting a guy with about 100 pounds on him.
In a mask.
And the mask cost him the fight.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Great
That’s all well and good. I didn’t say it was a clean or fair fight, but Canseco has virtually no combat athletic skills. Tanaka at least had excellent wrestling on his side. That is a critical difference.
Granted. I doubt Canseco will last five minutes like Tanaka did.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the one thing that gives me pause in all of this: Canseco’s lack of experience. I’m okay with (if not a fan of) every last other part of the Super Hulk thing, but this one… it’s a little more off for me. The only reason I don’t get too concerned – and this is as totally arbitrary as it sounds – is that Canseco is a stupid jerk, and an adult one at that, which means he’s both capable of and has every right to make terrible decisions that result in him getting a beating. And because it’s Jose Canseco, I’ll look the other way on the fact that maybe he’s not the best person to be making those decisions for himself.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 5, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Resorting to gimmicks = dying slow death
First sign of trouble is the emergence of gimmicks to sell your wares. Jose proved he can’t fight and prior athletic endevors does not a fighter make – he’s not even on the Johnny Morton level of combat sports. EliteXC died because it’s entire existence was based on a gimmick: Kimbo the YouTube street-fighting sensation. If you need to sell fights based on fighters with a backstory tag-line (YouTube sensation, former NFL or MLB All-Star); you’re pretty much doomed and your days are numbered.
But that’s not what DREAM is doing here. This tournament is on the same card as the Quarterfinals of Featherweight Grand Prix. It’s a sideshow, meant to appeal to the fans who favor spectacle over sport, the guys who will hit up Youtube the next day to see Jose Canseco get KTFO’d before the Keyboard Kitten theme plays. It’s Trainwreck TV, and once you realize that, your outrage dissipates.
It’s Japanese marketing for Japanese fans the only reason the US media would care is Canseco and that would be just to make fun of him(unless he gets seriously injured). We aren’t the target audience for this, there is no reason for outrage but people shouldn’t pretend it’s anything besides what it is either, it’s Freakshow 101.
I think the desperation angle comes in with the fact that Dream is going to the well with the Bob Sapp and friends show because they need to pop a big rating with this one. It’s not do or die but they really do need a good rating if they want to keep doing primetime events on tv.
I think the desperation angle is that, historically, these kind of matches have been reserved for their New Years Eve shows. Take a look at the history of FEG MMA and you will see that their core MMA product (Hero’s) rarely had freakshow fights. It was only their NYE show Dynamite that utilized generous helping of freaks.
Now, we have DREAM resorting a freakshow of historical proportions just a few months after their epic Bob Sapp versus Anime character fiasco at Dynamite 2009. Playing the freakshow in the spring is something new. That is why guys with experience covering the Japanese MMA scene are treating this freakshow differently.
Depends on how the tournament works. The freakshow tournament finale might land on New Year’s Eve.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Jose Canseco is a beacon of truth. And HMC will smash that beacon into itty-bitty pieces.
I love, love, love freak shows.
The last DREAM event was phenomenal. I suspect this one will be highly entertaining as well.
‘Entertaining’ is the correct word, and hell yes. ‘Outer of Steroid Use Beaten Senseless in Non-Tested Event’
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Entertaining is the word for freak shows, I agree.
However, the last DREAM card was almost as good as, if not better than, anything the UFC has pumped out in the last year or so — from the “sporting” perspective, even. If this is the direction DREAM is headed, a mixture of both MMA spheres, then I am beyond thrilled. There was a strong Pride feeling to the last DREAM show and I liked it. A lot. If DREAM can also give us Wargods quality entertainment, then it is only a matter of time before a wave of awesome, like none before, washes over the MMAverse.
We, of the Night Crew, grow stronger.
by a tommy point on May 5, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was around DREAM.6 that all of the DREAM folding rumors were running around? Remember: FED: DREAM Promotion Going Nowhere
And Sasahara said at the most recent DREAM press conference that DREAM.9 would be a major grab for ratings, something that your average laymen could enjoy.
It’s kind of disgusting that the MMA blogosphere is choosing to ignore the FWGP and JZ/Kawajiri, Mayhem/Jacare fights to focus on something that DREAM isn’t pretending is anything other than what it is…A FUN TOURNAMENT.
by AnonymousA on May 5, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Meltzer, please don’t make me agree with this guy again.
by Derek Suboticki on May 5, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Blame the timing of the announcements. If this tournament was announced several weeks ago and then last week they announced JZ/Crusher + the FW GP, then we’d all be talking about the latter. But it didn’t happen that way, so we are talking about the more recent news which is the super freak tournament.
The other first-round matchups in the tournament are at the very least semi-legit: Nortje-Sokodjou, Minowa-Sapp and Mousasi-Hunt. Each of the six men have proven fighting credentials. Nortje may be the least succesful, but he’s still 2-5 MMA, 9-19 kickboxing and 10-0 boxing. Choi is 1-2 MMA, 12-5 kickboxing. Canseco? .266, 462HR, 1407RBI. Nice, but as a fighter he has no credentials whatsoever.
In America, Fedor-Aoki might not have happened. Choi-Canseco sure as hell wouldn’t happen. In Japan, maybe this kind of stuff draws, but legal or not, should this actually happen, Canseco is risking life and limb. I hope Choi goes easy on him, but the fight has no business taking place.
Seriously, that “fight” will look more like assault with intent to commit bodily harm than a fair fight.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 5, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions
God I hope they list his batting stats in place of MMA record.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 5, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That would be perfect.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Only if he is allowed to bring a bat to the fight.
Come to think of it, he better bring a bat to the fight. He might last about twice as long with a bat (another ten seconds, that is) than without.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 5, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
On second look, Jose’s wikipedia article tells that prior to his fight with Sikahema, Canseco claimed having black belts in taekwondo, kung fu and muay thai.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 5, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The elusive Muay Thai black belt.
You don’t see one of those every day.
They are about as common as a black belt in wrestling &/or western boxing.
Maybe you should do some research first
Muay Thai does have a grading system. Perhaps you’ve seen Buakaw Por Pramuk wearing his in the ring. Their black belt is the red (I’m pretty sure) armband
by MuayThaiHasaBeltsystem on May 6, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Impact on North America
I agree that fights like this happen all the time in Japan, as has been stated numerous times here already.
What I worry about is the impact a ridiculous fight like this has on MMA as a sport here in North America. People already take every shot they can at Mixed Martial Arts and while the rest of the DREAM 9 card is full of quality fights, the only thing getting coverage on this side of the Pacific is Canseco fighting a giant kickboxer.
Ironically enough (and a great opportunity to toss in a plug for myself) I wrote about this today at my blog, Keyboard Kimura.
http://keyboardkimura.blogspot.com/2009/05/quest-for-legitimacy-part-i.html
North America just showcased a mixed martial arts fight where one fighter had no arms or legs. Let’s worry about our own back yard before we go taking shots at the Japanese.
It was an amateur bout in a small time arena with a dirt floor not a prime time MMA event. Of coruse even then it got plenty of discussion (not to mention wasn’t allowed to happen in a state where there actually is an athletic commission for MMA).
I understand this. I just don’t like all this talk about Japan as though it’s the only place where freakshows happen when the most ridiculous freakshow of them all took place only a few days ago right here in the USofA.
It was odd but I don’t think it was the most ridiculous freakshow of them all, it was more of a heart warming tale of a guy with a disability fighting against adversity. The silliest one I’ve ever seen was Bob Sapp vs the Anime Cosplayer and that was made worse by the poor guy under the mask having legitimate credentials. Regardless I agree freakshows should be pointed out where ever they occur.
Assuming DREAM manages to sign Jose…
Assuming nobody manages to talk some sense into his head before this goes down…
Assuming the match itself really takes place…
I really hope we don’t wake up the next morning and see tabloid headlines to the tune of “BASEBALL LEGEND KILLED IN AN ULTIMATE FIGHTING MATCH!!!”
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 6, 2009 2:56 AM EDT reply actions
Oddly enough, there is one chance for Canseco. James Thompson bullcharge to straight haymaker down the middle. Choi is the slowest man alive, very slow reaction time. But yes, Canseco is taking a huge risk.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
That has probably the most chance of working. However, I’m not sure Canseco has the power to hurt a K-1 veteran like Choi. If succesful, that might buy Canseco a little more time – still, that’s merely delaying the inevitable.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 6, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Did… did we just endorse a gong-and-dash tactic? My god, what has MMA become!?!
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 6, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Canseco’s best chance is to treat this like Hollywood guys treat doing overseasTV commercials. The first decent shot he takes he should flop and play dead then pick up his paycheck and hope the footage doesn’t get shown in the US. I don’t see any way this doesn’t turn out embarrassing to Canseco he should just worry about staying alive long enough to cash the paycheck.
Vroom Vroom Party Starter
Yeah. A guy named Douglas Dedge died in Ukraine in 1998. He fought despite having health problems, got stopped on strikes in the first, collapsed after the fight and died two days later. For a long time, Dedge was said to be the only MMA death.
Sam Vasquez died in 2007 in USA from brain hemorrhage after a fight. He got two blood clots in his brain, had a stroke, slipped into a coma and died 42 days later.
Also, this article over at Sherdog says that a fighter died in 2005 in Korea. The name of the deceased isn’t disclosed, but the cause of death is said to be brain hemorrhaging.
In other words, yes. Fighters have died in MMA.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 6, 2009 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
