Shawn Tompkins Has Some Decent Ideas About Lyoto Machida
by Luke Thomas on May 31, 2009 2:06 PM EDT
in MMA News
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How successful this strategy will prove is still very much an open question, but this seems like an excellent start:
"I've got two plans if any of my fighters ever fight Lyoto Machida," Tompkins told Cofield and Cokin on ESPN Radio1100 in Las Vegas. "First of all, I'm going to go to three of the best karate schools in the area, get their best guys, and work that timing. Because that's all it is: He has a different timing than everybody else. And secondly, you need to be a wrestler. You need to be chest-to-chest with that guy, and you need to be either pressing him against the cage or putting him on his back."
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This sort of talk happens all the time with the likes of Fedor and Anderson Silva. Tito is a wrestler who likes to get inside and he couldn’t even get a shot in. That’s where Machida’s sumo comes into play. All of this is easier said than done.
I poop rainbows.
My thoughts exactly
It’s easy to say “I have a system that will work” but until someone actually goes out and does it it’s all talk. The more I think about it the more I think the best chance is with someone like Rampage, hoping to just land a lucky punch with those quick, heavy hands. You’re not going to outpoint the guy over 5 rounds so the best chance you have is to just hang in there with him, survive, and hope to find an opening where you can deliver that one punch KO.
And for the record, I realize that’s basically what Evans wanted to do and he got killed, but he doesn’t have the boxing skills to do it. Rampage’s power and footwork are light years ahead of Rashad’s. And don’t continuously press the action like Thiago Silva did either, mix it up a little, and like I said, just try and survive. Maybe if you get it late into the third or the fourth round and he gets a little winded you can find your opening, of course that would require his opponent to have excellent cardio to take advantage of this. It obviously isn’t going to be easy but I think the key is going to be to stretch it ouit as long as you can, the more time you have the more opportunities he has to make a mistake, especially if he’s winded.
“light years ahead”?? really?? light years ahead and he would have murdered forrest and jardine, bro… and when a strategy involves “just try and survive”… that is not a good sign.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
Yes, really. If you think Evans is a better boxer than Rampage then I don’t know what to tell you, you are obviously lost.
rampage has heavier hands, but evans is faster.. and how will heavy hands beat machida when guys as fast as evans look slow and lost agasint machida?
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
Rampage has much better footwork and defensive skills which are kind of the pillars of being a good boxer.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 31, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
but good boxing footwork against a karate guy seems kinda pointless or at least not as advantageous as it would be against another boxer… i still think an explosive worldclass wrestler is the best option.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/5/25/886367/greg-jackson-took-the-wrong-lesson
Scroll down about a third of the way to the first GIF, it’s in green, that should explain everything you need to know about why Rampage has a much better chance of a one punch KO against Machida than Rashad did.
“First of all, I’m going to go to three of the best karate schools in the area, get their best guys, and work that timing. Because that’s all it is:”
It’s just as easy as that, huh? Did he forget that Machida also has a blackbelt in BJJ and is an expert at sumo wrestling. Not to mention that he’s eaten, breathed and shit fighting since he was 3 years old. Tompkins and Greg Jackson have no idea how to beat this guy. Machida tooled Evans and Ortiz, who are both excellent wrestlers. This guy’s the new Anderson Silva at 205. He’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Folks need to learn to deal with that fact. Machida=Unbeatable.
MMA fighters brag about sparring with pro boxers all the time. If you get used to a pro boxers timing than you will probably have no problem boxing a much more mediocre practitioner. Sparring against top karate guys might not fully prepare you for Machida, but it may make his style less foreign and mesmerizing. A lot of the problem with Machida is he is presenting things no one specifically prepares for yet. It would be like if boxers only trained to fight other boxers and all of a sudden a muay thai guy came from now where and was blasting you with elbows kicks and knees you had never seen or sparred against before. It doesn’t matter how good of a boxer you are, if you are not prepared for a muay thai style you will have no idea what to expect.
It sounded like Greg Jackson was trying to find holes in Machida’s footwork and training Rashad to “counter the counter”. The only problem is Rashad’s footwork was like swiss cheese and Machida didn’t need to counter. Bringing in Shotokan black belts to spar against sounds like a smarter option than trying to have other kick boxers mimic Machida’s striking style or just pretending Machida is a kick boxer himself.
You don’t have to find a guy who does as much well as Machida. Tompkins was talking about finding guys to emulate his timing in the standup. That same guy doesn’t have to be a BJJ black belt, because they’ve got other guys to fill those roles for sparring. You must not have a good handle on how top trainers structure training camps and how they use training partners to give certain looks to their fighters.
Machida sets up other aspects of his MMA guy through his karate, though.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
It’s just as easy as that, huh? Did he forget that Machida also has a blackbelt in BJJ and is an expert at sumo wrestling. Not to mention that he’s eaten, breathed and shit fighting since he was 3 years old. Tompkins and Greg Jackson have no idea how to beat this guy. Machida tooled Evans and Ortiz, who are both excellent wrestlers. This guy’s the new Anderson Silva at 205. He’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Folks need to learn to deal with that fact. Machida=Unbeatable.
Oh, yes, you’re totally right. Challengers and their coaches shouldn’t even try to train for Machida or figure out how to beat him. Challengers may fail, but they should never stop trying. Machida’s not superhuman, and neither are Fedor or Anderson. Timing is a huge asset for Machida and big part of what makes him so dangerous, so focusing on that is not folly. To train for that I’d just be looking at bringing in a few of the best karateka from the entire world though, not just the area.
Also his sumo really isn’t that huge a part of his game. It’s mostly just part of his clinching, that’s it.
Evans is not an excellent wrestler.
by MuayThaiHasaBeltsystem on May 31, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You need to be chest-to-chest with that guy, and you need to be either pressing him against the cage or putting him on his back
Randy Couture101. How awesome would it be if Randy were 5 years younger.
Keep firing Assholes!
This is a dream competition for me. I drink as much coffee as I want, and eventually I hallucinate.
by Ubernoober on May 31, 2009 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I said it before I'll say it again
THIS GUY
[IMG]http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w155/skwirrlmaster/Kingmo.jpg[/IMG]
Mo isn’t a control wrestler at all either. In an interview I saw with him he said he started wrestling to take his anger that he had towards his father. To do this he focused PURELY on takedowns and big powerful, painful ones. Mo isn’t a point or positional wrestler… Hes a pure, explosive, takedown machine. Probably even better than Randy for the purpose of putting Machida on his back though he’s about 5 lbs lighter. I would wager stronger and more explosive though. 40 inch vertical leap athlete that he is…
by MuayThaiHasaBeltsystem on May 31, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Stupid photobucket doesn't automatically copy anymore I see
by MuayThaiHasaBeltsystem on May 31, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Dear, Shawn
Fuk off!
fondly,
Rashad Evans
"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"
by Warhand on May 31, 2009 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sho nuff
Rashad is a helluva wrestler – you can argue that he had the wrong gameplan, but simply being a wrestler doesn’t beat Lyoto.
by Derek Suboticki on May 31, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
and saying that penn’s track record is better than machida’s??? please, a quick glance at fight histories proves otherwise.
If you look at Penn’s record in historical context it is much closer. BJ’s victory over Matt Hughes was bigger than any single win Machida has had.
by Dropkick434 on May 31, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
While bringing in karate guys will certainly help more than it will hurt, Tompkins thoughts are waaaaay too general to be some sort of blueprint to beat Machida. It’s not that simple.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Also, I hate when rankings get brought up and people start saying shit like, “We need to see him off his back.” Why? Do you need to see him get dropped by a punch too?
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 31, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
He’s never been in trouble – that’s clearly a sign that he’s hiding something.
by Derek Suboticki on May 31, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe he's a robot
I know these theories have been thrown around for years in regards to Fedor but I would venture to say Lyoto has been even more dominant than Fedor, granted against lesser competition than Fedor has faced. Maybe this needs to be investigated…..
…he said, shortly before the lasers pierced his skull.
by Derek Suboticki on May 31, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
"We need to defend the run and convert on 3rd down. That's how we can win against them."
The plan is always simple. The execution is the problem.
by cyph on May 31, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
My plan...
step 1: kick him in the nuts, step 2: repeat kick to the nuts, step 3: repeat until you are about to be disqualified, step 4: …um…hope you land a punch because he is worried about his nuts.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 31, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
lol.
Excellent plan. But I bet Machida’s balls even have excellent lateral movement. :)
I love me some Sexyama!
Mine have been known to bob and weave
by Derek Suboticki on May 31, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This won’t work either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKAjchqYgz0
Keep firing Assholes!
This is a dream competition for me. I drink as much coffee as I want, and eventually I hallucinate.
Brent, Cheick Kongo can’t cut to LHW, Machida would have to move up to fight him.
by ufc4 on May 31, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
CONFIDENCE!
Keep in mind that as a trainer at one of MMA’s top training camps, sooner or later one his fighters is bound to face Machida. Therefore, he’s going to have to sound confident about his plans for victory.
He can’t be training a guy to fight Machida and say something like:
“Listen man, I’m going to be straight with you. I have no f*cking idea how to beat this guy. So just charge straight in, fake a takedown, and swing with the fences. It’s the best I can do for you.”
I think this interviewer was a little unnecessarily critical of jackson’s gameplan. He had a counter-striker to work with against a very firmly established counter-striker. it is to stupid to tell your guy to wait for machida to get off first? I don’t agree with that strategy but that’s a lot easier to say in retrospect than in future speculation.
that being said, I think the person to beat machida will be a boxer who can get inside and maintain pressure, cut off the cage and get his back to the fence. a lot of the above commenters have been writing off the ortiz fight as a lopsided contest but i think we actually saw some flashes of machida’s weaknesses… if i remember correctly tito did successfully get inside and land some good strikes.
machida obviously has outstanding striking but the person with the best boxing pedigree he’s fought so far would probably be penn, who now fights 50lbs lighter. Can rampage tag him on the chin like penn did? hell, why not? i’m not about to put any money down but i’m not writing him off either.
Rampage knows his probability of beating lyoto is low – thats why he didnt take the fight… he had the option of fighting Machida while the show was airing and then fighting Rashad win or lose. He declined.
Rampages boxing is great – but it hasnt looked so crisp and sharp lately (forrest and jardine)… did juantio actually provide some good value?
He’s hardly a master in the clinch and his wrestling and ground and pound isnt masterful to where I would say he’s the prototype to beat Machida.
If he can resharpen his boxing and incorporate the take down threat then he’ll up his probability – no matter what his still a far cry.
Before you could gamble on taking shots from Machida and hope to return a doozy (I think this is what Greg Jackson was counting on) but now you cant afford to take any shots from Lyoto. The most dangerous place to be is at the end of his punches.
Couture is probably the closest thing if he wasnt so old. Coutures wrestling, cage tactics, clinch and pound, ground and pound plus a Henderson type chin would be the closest thing that would give Machida trouble.
It will take a special person to solve this puzzle.
People think he’s as dangerous as Anderson… I’ll submit that he is MORE dangerous then anderson.
Anderson can be taken down – Mahcidas takedown defense is awesome per his statistics (close to GSP’s). With his new found power its scary.
Also its a mistake to think he is now more “aggressive”… if you watch his fights all the way back from hoger and heath to Tito – he always pounced on the guy when he hurt them. He just didnt have the mustard to finish. Now he does – and now he has the power to hurt guys sooner and more often.
Machida as the champion is way more dangerous because the only way I see this guy getting beat is someone good enough to lay and pray… but at 5 rounds thats alot harder to fathom.
by mmalogic on May 31, 2009 9:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I would add that if there is a single striking skill that is susceptible to Shotokan Karate, it is boxing. Not only do you train to measure everything with your arm reach (fundamental mistake when fighting someone that measures everything with their leg reach) but boxers are notorious for throwing themselves off balance to land punches. The nature of pivoting on your back leg to help generate power in a blow puts you off balance, enough so that a Shotokan Karate fighter can throw a feint, get you to throw a punch, then sweep you with relative ease. I will concede that there are susceptibilities in Shotokan to MT kickboxing, particularly leg kicks since you don’t really train leg kicks in Shotokan. But Lyoto has adapted his Karate for leg kicks quite well and is quite adept at using them himself. Rampage has never been great at throwing leg kicks so his kickboxing background wouldn’t provide much help here.
Machida’s ‘power’ isn’t ‘newfound’. He’s always had it. Rashad got frustrated and started to expose himself unwittingly and Machida took advantage.
People are looking too much in the last match, rashad had a weird footwork and a kinda suspect jaw, you can have a good gameplan but when you’re fighter does weird stuff in the cage of course the gameplan looks like crap. You want to beat machida? Start with finding a fighter that can keep is own technically with him before discussing gameplan and style.
Surprised Luke finds Shawn Tompkins suggestions interesting
They’re somewhat arrogant and naive. Yeah, it’s just ‘timing’. That’s my whole point about Shotokan Karate, the inarticulate simply say it’s a different ‘timing’ but they have no idea what that actually means. The fundamentals of Shotokan Karate conflict with what is taught in a kickboxing or a boxing gym. Today’s MMA fighter has to unlearn some of the things they’ve been getting drilled into their head in order to not let themselves be sitting ducks for someone like Machida. I’m not saying it’s not possible to do and with high level athletes I think this can be accomplished within 3-6 months. But Shawn Tompkins has no clue where to start especially when Shotokan Karate black belts will start telling him he is teaching things all wrong. We’ll see how much he likes that…
Also, Tito Ortiz is arguable the most aggressive wrestler in the LHW division even today when it comes to the first round. And not only could he not take Machida down, he got taken down himself…HARD. You will be hard pressed to find a wrestler with the aggressiveness and skill at LHW that will take Machida down or keep him there. The guy trained at R1 for a while and Frank Trigg had been raving about his wrestling skills for years before he came to the UFC.
I really thought Shawn Tompkins was speaking more out of arrogance than anything he really seems to think he’s some brilliant coach and likes taking indirect shots at Greg Jackson’s camp regularly. Last time it was ‘Jackson doesn’t breed fighters from the start’…um, where did Diego Sanchez start? Or Joey Villasenor? Or Leonard Garcia? Keith Jardine spent all of his UFC career with Jackson and Rashad has been with Jackson’s since after TUF.
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