There Are No Shortcuts in Shotokan Karate
In relation to my column on Sherdog.com today, a reader forwards me an email he sent to Sherdog.com's Jake Rossen, but the argument being made extends beyond what Mr. Rossen wrote. To wit:
I couldn't agree with you more about your thoughts on the effectiveness of karate making it's way into martial arts through Lyoto Machida. I am a lifelong Shotokan Karate practitioner and have competed extensively at an international level. Nothing makes me happier than seeing our art validated through Lyoto Machida.
The problem with Shotokan Karate in MMA is that it is a style of fighting that takes a lifetime of training to master. The use of fixed stances, kata, 5 step sparring etc... are training techniques designed to develop a fighter over millions of repetitions and decades of time. And, there are no shortcuts. Unfortunately, in today's MMA scene if the fighters are strong and aggressive, they can learn enough technique in wrestling or boxing in a few short years to compete at a very high level. Why would any student choose to perfect their kata for 5 years over a three year highschool wrestling program and a couple years of boxing?
I am not saying that wrestlers and boxers are not dedicated. It's just that being a whitebelt in Shotokan Karate isn't exactly the most dynamic or inspiring place to be. There is very little interaction. There is no 'free sparring' kumite and you spend your entire class walking in a front stance doing thrust punch drills. It takes a huge amount of appreciation and a 'big picture' mindset to ever become proficient enough to acually 'fight'. In my opinion, learning to 'fight' doesn't even start until you attain blackbelt.
I really appreciate how the MMA media has embraced a new karate hero and I sincerely hope that karate experiences a resurgence. Unfortunately, because of lack of understanding about amount of dedication karate requires, I fear that Lyoto Machida may be karate's 'Last Mohican'.
This is my understanding as well and it's important to acknowledge the hurdles ahead. What we also need to keep in mind is that Shotokan's applicability, while narrow, isn't necessarily limited to less than a handful simply because the style isn't as easily grasped in smaller time frames. Others who have trained Shotokan from early youth through adulthood while adding modern MMA training to their repertoire over time could conceivably be talented professionals even if they never accomplish identical feats to that of Lyoto Machida. Would that be considered a failure? I sincerely doubt that.
So while Shotokan karatekas won't necessarily flock to MMA as amateur wrestlers have, we shouldn't let the admittedly considerable impediments to success dictate that only Lyoto Machida can make this style work. That could be true, but there exists room for hope that other Shotokan karatekas or wing chun practitioners or whoever can also make an impact now that Machida is blazing something of a new path. The next innovation doesn't necessarily have to involve a major paradigm shift. Even atomic adjustments can send big messages.
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Comments
I'll toast my 40 to that
I hope we see more & more fighters skilled in other disciplines (besides just the usual wrestling/jiu-jitsu/muay thai/kick/boxing guys) start training in MMA. Watching fighters like Machida is exciting to see how their skills compare to other more traditional fighters’ skills.
Keep Swillin',
Bruz
by Bruz on May 27, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Don't entirely agree
I also practiced Shotokan Karate for a number of years and value the principles and spiritual teachings much more than its teachings as a defensive art. But it is not true that you can’t learn aspects of Shotokan and apply them to MMA. Anderson Silva already does this as do many high level boxers and kickboxers. The difference is that level of understanding of the stand up game is almost intuitive to high level practitioners of other martial arts but is rarely ever isolated, categorized and taught the way it is in Shotokan Karate. For example, all good boxers know there is a time when an opponent can be attacked and they cannot defend, it is a moment when the mind is in reset mode so to speak, and in Shotokan there is a name for that moment. In boxing there is not. I remember training zanshin, and training how to measure and time a strike or counter strike not just based on physical moments, but by your opponent’s breathing, his eyes even would tell you when they are ‘blanked out’ or in ‘reset mode’ and can be attacked. I remember kyo as Machida put it.
Top level athletes can learn these elements or at least learn how not to give themselves away and be such easy targets for someone like Machida. Very much how in the early UFCs, after some basic training people were learning to sprawl and basic defenses against BJJ practitioners. The person that wrote the above e-mail is right, it takes years and years to be able to strike and fight like a high level Shotokan Karate black belt, and it is not attractive to most emerging athletes, but elements of what is TAUGHT in Shotokan are intuitively understood by other striking arts if not articulated well. What I believe will happen is this higher level of striking will be articulated better and implementations will be made in the game of the modern MMA athlete. And Shotokan will lead the way here with Machida being the standard bearer.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 1:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What I really hope
Is that fighters stop lifting their back heel to throw a punch. Or at least realize the perils in doing so. At least Shotokan might be able to get rid of the horrible habits taught by boxing and kickboxing that it is ok to pivot your backfoot or get on the balls of your feet when throwing a strike. Those are serious compromises in center of gravity and weaken the potential power in your blows.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It does throw off your CG, but its the same shifting of weight that generates power in combinations. Boxing and kick boxing use one move to set up another, the follow through on your right hook is set up for your left uppercut or knee.
Different styles.
by ryanwk628 on May 27, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, watch the Fight Science episode where they measure the punches and kicks of multiple disciplines.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't just tease
give us some data points — what disciplines measured up?
I know jemaleddin fu was right up there.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I heard ...
They had to cut that for some DARPA clause. Threat to National Security or something.
by asa on May 27, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For reals.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I think I have to retract that. They were really measuring the strength of the practitioners and didn’t really measure the effectiveness of the move.
But I’d contend that raising your heal, as part of pivoting your hips, is ESSENTIAL to delivering certain punches.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding your first statement, I would actually have to agree with you.
I’ve always thought these half-arsed TV shows were a load of crock anyway. Strength isn’t the only criteria relevant in any combat situation; the bloody producers just spend their 45 minutes entertaining and making their audience feel educated when they’re really not. It takes decades of broad study to truly understand the effectiveness of various martial arts, not some stupid puff piece TV series.
by Flying Gogoplata on May 27, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then again, you could have one guy who was equally trained in two martial arts deliver each of their blows onto a dummy or heavy bag and see which used more force. But then you’d get people bitching that “that guy trained six months more in Muay Thai than he did in Kyokushin so it doesn’t count!”
In terms of punching power, the overhand right with swiveled hips and pushing off the back foot is probably going to beat anything else – Rampage delivered 1800 pounds of force to a heavy bag in one of these tests – and his boxing is good but not great. (His power, mind you…)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 28, 2009 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re only looking at the strength/force/power of a strike and nothing else? Again, it’s not the only important criteria of a strike relevant in a combat situation. And in some cases, it’s not important at all. How much force did it take for Kevin Burns to drop Anthony Johnson via eye poke in their first fight? What if that happened in a street environment where it isn’t necessarily illegal?
by Flying Gogoplata on May 28, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s another limitation with regards to TMA’s, and that’s the MMA ruleset. No groin, eye and throat strikes dramatically changes the game for arts that depend heavily on them. One can still extract useful techniques and principles, but he would also waste time learning stuff he would not use in MMA.
by Flying Gogoplata on May 27, 2009 2:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
MMA ruleset limitations
I never really practiced groin, or eye strokes when I trained in Shotokan. I mean, who could I practice them on? Shotokan doesn’t really depend on those types of strikes. I question any martial art that is overtly dependent on those types of strikes because you can’t really practice them. You mostly train to strike the sternum or nerve clusters in the face. You don’t really train for throat strikes but I found myself punch opponent’s in the throat all the time. Lyoto’s kill shot was kind of a throat punch actually. While MMA forbids it, I don’t think you can really control throat strikes.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree totally. My criticism of Krav Maga has always been that there’s no amount of training that’s going to get you over the feeling of crushing some dude’s testicles for the first time.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
ha!
rec’d.
Brought back alot of memories there.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t want to know about your testicle-crushing memories!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I’m not talking about Shotokan specifically, but arts that focus on “dirty strikes” and subsequently de-emphasize strength/power and emphasize speed, sensitivity, balance, attack rate, accuracy and evasion since it takes very little strength/power to damage somebody’s eye/throat/groin/etc.
My guess is that in order to practice the strikes, you beat up on a very heavily padded yet fully resisting opponent. I don’t really know for sure.
Here’s an example of an art (system, really) that deals with and uses these types of strikes for self-defence and military CQC situations. It looks corny at first, but read through some of the articles there. It’s not perfect by any means but it does give some insight on martial arts in general.
Let me just give a run down on the levels of lethality in martial arts:
- Military Combat – kill or be killed, ROE permitting
- Self-Defence – survive, neutralize threat and escape
- Law Enforcement – survive and detain suspect
- Street Competition – some implicitly agreed rules, possible hard surfaces and weaponry
- Controlled Competition – fight to win/entertain in a regulated sport environment
- Free Sparring – more realistic combat practice
- Mock Sparring – safe combat practice
- Padwork – technique, power and fitness training
- Forms – no combat
Some martial arts emphasize one of the extreme ends of this list and may not be optimised for controlled competition (MMA, K-1, etc.). This includes many traditional martial arts as well as some modern self-defence systems. Arts such as Shotokan, Muay Thai, Collegiate Wrestling, BJJ, etc. are easily adaptable to MMA because they already have a culture and framework for controlled competition.
by Flying Gogoplata on May 27, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the thing about self-defense courses is that they’re next-to-useless against someone with any training. The self-defense demos remind me of those lame Aikido videos – sure, if somebody attacks Zombie-style by running straight at you with their arms out it’s great, but as soon as they know anything about fighting at all… Well, let’s let Judo Gene tell that story. :-)
I got asked to be the dummy for an ex-girlfriend’s self-defense class once in ‘92, and just the size difference was enough that most of their techniques wouldn’t work – and this was ~120lb. ladies taking on a then-180lb. me. (Then I got maced – but that’s another story.) My wife wouldn’t have a prayer against an attacker built like 220lb. me today no matter what techniques they teach.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 28, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you had some experience with just one self-defence class, a sample size of just one, and conclude that all self-defense courses are next-to-useless?
Obviously, you went to a pretty crappy school which is unsurprising considering the proportion of crappy martial arts/self defence schools in the United States.
A real self-defence school should be pretty hardcore about things and encourage eye gouges, groin strikes, etc. which are effective no matter how much you or your opponent weigh.
by Flying Gogoplata on May 28, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It seems hard to believe that a Shotokan Master couldn’t redesign his training system to produce high level Karate fighters in less than a decade. Of course if you don’t teach your students how to fight until they are black belts it will take a long time. But with less emphasis on the kata (memorizing move sequences) and more emphasis on sparring, with less time on spiritual teachings and more on mixed martial arts fighting, wouldn’t fighters be able to add a worthwhile amount of Karate to their repertoire? What we need is to do with Shotokan Karate is what Helio did to Judo. Strip it down to its useful elements for MMA.
by Graven Image on May 27, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
yes
but you’d also be losing some of Karate’s essences. A big part of karate in it’s purest form is the mental and spiritual discipline that comes with training in it.
you can add the skills but without the mental factor you’d be missing something.
by rainmaker6 on May 27, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling that within the year we are gonna see some guy coming into the UFC at like 8-0 and Rogan will be going nut about his Shotokan black belt and he will get his ass knocked out by Stephan Bonnar or someone like that.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Thanks for giving this issue coverage. This is the thing I love about MMA. Everyone bring your style to the table and get ready to fight. There is no hiding in the cage. Every athlete is exposed to the light of scrutiny. I love seeing fighters from all sorts of background coming in and competing. Whether it be a fighter with a Karate and Jiu-Jitsu background like Machida or a fighter with a Greco-Roman Wrestling or Boxing background, all fighters have a chance to weave their skills into a gameplan to see who can come out on top. It’s almost like a giant game of paper-rock-scissors and just when you think you have it figured out, you realize that the game has evolved yet again.
by SlickRick00 on May 27, 2009 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Exactly
And in a couple of years, we’ll be reading books and watching DVD’s and discussing a whole new mix of grappling and striking that nobody thought was practical. It will never cease to be amazing. It’s like music – no matter who’s on top now, there’s a 16 year old practicing in his garage that will blow us all away in a few years.
by subo on May 27, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
My roommate did Shotokan for 6 years (a lot of that was him and his classmates getting the crap beat out of them by their 6’ 4" instructor/local cop who liked to beat up kids) and Ive spared with most of his class mates, including some upper belts, and some good Kempo kids. Its a style rooted in its footwork. I can apprieciate staying just out of reach and leaning back because as a tall guy, Ive always done that from TKD, to boxing, to Kick Boxing. To lean back like that tho, you need to put your weight on your back leg and counter balance yourself with your front.
Lyoto does have great take down D and so much of that comes from his footwork and keeping his legs under him. I give him tons of credit for what he does. It goes against the square up wrestling approach that has bastardized so much good stand up in MMA. However the footwork is where you have to attack this style, because youre not going to catch Lyoto in the face.
When I have spared with Shotokan guys (none at Lyotos level, but same style) jamming their footwork and keeping the off balance by working around and trying to get angles. When ever possible attacking from the side, using fakes, and forcing the guy to shift his weight. When these guys fight, they rely on staying light on their feet. To beat them you have to make them plant.
Lyoto leans back and lifts his right left to balance. A fighter with long arms (Jon Jones?) could throw or fake high, then kick the upper right thigh when Lyoto is hanging it. If said fighter could do this a few times during the fight, and stay alive, he could really humanize Lyoto by the end of the fight.
Rashad would put his head forward when he came in to throw punches which Lyoto moved his head back. When I watch Kick Boxing, guys know to lead with a knee or a step and keep their head back (you have to keep your balance some how) but in MMA guys have gotten into wrestling stances more. Karate seems to really play on wrestling’s faults, so you have to mix it up. Step in with purpose, trying to mess with Lyotos footwork. Step towards his right foot and you may get lucky and land on it. Worst case you limit his mobility by interfering with his foot work, tangling him up.
Whatever the case, a fighter has to take advantage of any opportunity he has against Lyoto because they will be few and far between.
It wont matter how good a striker is who fights him, the guy is too defensive and elusive. You have to take that elusiveness away first.
Anyone have any better ideas?
by ryanwk628 on May 27, 2009 3:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What people are missing is that.....
….karate is only part of what make Lyoto successful. I grew up in the 80’s during the Karate Kid era when people would say “I know Karate!” as if they had a deadly weapon or something.
Karate alone isn’t much.
Lyoto combines karate with great reflexes, punching power, and BJJ to be the fighter that he is. Without the catlike reflexes and power, he wouldn’t be much. However, the footwork of karate I think is what gives him his biggest advantage.
by Dexerion on May 27, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe 80% of this art is useless for MMA….
we dont know because no one else has used it successfully yet in MMA. Machida has studied and practiced all of the major MMA skill sets so only he knows.
If he can isolate the most potent aspects and replicate it in another fighter then yes it will become mainstream in MMA – but until then this is not about Karate
IT IS ALL ABOUT HOW MACHIDA USES KARATE ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE TO KICK ASS.
His opponents can bring all the Karate Masters they want and it will make little difference because they dont know and use all of the other skill sets Machida does.
He has morphed this thing into something else and until someone else can replicate his success I consider this being Machida and not shotokan.
Watch his face lately as he lands a punch in slow mo. Ive never seen anything like that in real life. Its like he has mastered his CHI.
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
watch a shotokan karate tournament
the videos are on youtube. I think you’ll rethink the idea that Machida’s success is mostly just his uncanny skill. He is implementing the fundamental theory behind Shotokan properly, and has the skill in Muay Thai and BJJ and wrestling to not be vulnerable to those arts.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just saw… they would all get killed in less than 30 seconds in MMA. Until someone else can replicate Machidas success in MMA with this art – Its Machida using Shotokan not Shotokan.
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get your last post
Watch this video. (turn sound down) I think you miss my point when I said watch the videos. My point isn’t whether those guys in the videos would do well in MMA. The point is that his style is unmistakable heavily based on Shotokan. He is implementing Shotokan primarily with some minor modifications. People are saying that he invented his own thing, it’s not really Shotokan, that is not true he did make mods but it is primarily first and foremost Shotokan the video articulates this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcCNsxs9Ovw&feature=player_embedded
We won’t see more Lyoto Machida’s coming into MMA dominating like him. I don’t think ANYONE is saying that or thinking that only you. What is being asked though is what is it about Shotokan that gives him an edge? How is he taking apart people so easily? My point is that he doesn’t have some unnatural speed or unnatural talent (in Shotokan) he is implementing Shotokan properly the way it was meant to be implemented. He doesn’t have unnatural reflexes or some uncanny physical dexterity and speed. He is using his Shotokan training to expose fighters when they let their guard down. What can be learned by TODAYS MMA fighter is what is it about their technique (which is mostly based around boxing and kickboxing/MT) that is making them vulnerable to a Shotokan master like Lyoto. To be honest, in many ways it is the same things that make them vulnerable to Anderson Silva, who trained Shotokan some with Lyoto, and these are the things that today’s fighter can and will correct to be competitive against these guys. It’s a matter of technique. He learned enough wrestling and BJJ technique in order to not be too vulnerable to those forms of combat and now everyone will have to learn his art. They won’t have to be masters, they will just need to know enough to take away his edge. But it will still take some time this won’t happen overnight.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As everyone knows — there are several aspects of stand-up — distance, timing and technique are probably the most important. All three of these are emphasized to a great degree in A LEGITIMATE shotokan school. One of the reasons it takes so long to learn is because they teach to fight at a longer distance — this is much more difficult to learn. It is important also to remember that there are few legit karate schools in the U.S. It is also important to note that Lyoto is not the first ‘karate guy.’ George St. Pierre and Bas Rutten have been extremely successful — one may argue that GSP does not use much karate anymore (I would disagree) — it does not matter — karate is great to start out with when you are younger, since there is so much emphasis on developing technique.
If you have someone young — put them in a legit karate class and they will easily adapt later to Boxing, MT and the standup portion of MMA (technically speaking — you can never teach someone to be tough, to have a work ethic or to take a punch). If you are 22 and want to get into MMA - better take some boxing and BJJ. -it is important to distinguish between legit karate schools and really bad karate schools (there are so many in the US). That is what is missing from your article in Sherdog.
Again, though
by artelussonnier on May 27, 2009 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
GSP & Bas Rutten
GSP implements next to nothing from Karate in his striking style. It is pretty much all Muay Thai he trains at the Wat with Phil Nurse and boxing he trains with at Howard Grant’s gym. He has very little faith in Karate in his fights closest think might be his spinning back kick but generally throwing a spinning back kick to an opponent in front of you is more of a Tae Kwon Do move, in Karate you don’t execute this sort of excessive movement.
Bas was almost entirely Muay Thai. Not much Karate involved in his style.
Jeff Newton and that Japanese guy Royce choked out in UFC 2 were more traditional Karate guys but both got taken down and subbed.
You are right though, most Karate schools in the US are terrible products of commercialization. So of course if you are 9 years old and walking around with a black belt that kind of dilutes the whole art. But good ones still exist but you got to seek them out. It’s much easier to find a good boxing or kickboxing teacher.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Bas is karate
He trained TKD and then Muay Thai.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said about GSP.
He is definitely more of a Muay Thai/Kickboxing guy. I’ve been saying that for years.
by zeroword on May 27, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your points have nothing to do what what my column is either about or arguing. And if you’re bringing up GSP as an example of Lyoto not being the first karate guy in MMA, all that tells me is you didn’t even read my article. The idea that I needed to mention there is a difference between legitimate karate schools and illegitmate karate schools is as relevant to the points I was making that people need to understand honeydew is not the same as cantaloupe.
by Luke Thomas on May 27, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did not know my points were supposed to have anything to do about your article. Sorry — I actually liked it very much, I think the only thing that is missing is what I said — not all karate is the same. Machida reaching this level is not a victory for karate, but a victory for LEGIT karate.
by artelussonnier on May 27, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOW
This was the same thing we heard about BJJ back in the day. Only the Gracies were true masters because it took a lifetime to learn. And yet….
If Shotokan were anything like it was being described:
a) MMA would be full of Karate guys instead of BJJ/MT/GR guys.
b) Lyoto Machida wouldn’t be using so much BJJ/MT/GR in his game.
What’s next, an article about how Lyoto’s real skill is in developing his chi fighting?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The fact is Royce Gracie’s BJJ as it applies to MMA was mediocre at best by todays standards. Many people have done a poor job of applying karate to MMA. Machida does a great job.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering when you were going to show up
and be skeptical of the TMA lovefest we’re having.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I don’t hate on TMAs! Just on people who act like their TMA is some spirtual mystical thing that’s far superior and far more difficult than everything else. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously you have never seen a real Tahtib practitioner. Tahtib is clearly superior to other arts. just wait until someone get into MMA.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that like adicfore?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hehe.no i just looked up traditional martial arts and it was a pretty hilarious one that came up. Its Egyptian stick fighting
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I looked it up… just hoping you’d fall for my favorite fourth grade joke….
After the Sherlock Holmes movie comes out we’ll all be told that Bartitsu is the end-all be-all….
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but you have to admit
that it wasn’t BJJ or Greco (or even Sumo) that beat Rashad.
And it wasn’t MT striking either.
Machida was doing some very strange moves never really seen before in MMA.
They came from somewhere.
He says it was Shotokan.
I’m willing to believe him.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(What’s with the poetry-posting?)
Well, we didn’t see any ground or clinch work – but that’s just because they never go to those positions. And the striking wasn’t pure Karate either – right? And clearly training in just Karate is no good – the reason Rashad didn’t go for the takedown was that he’d seen that Rashad HAD trained in those other disciplines, right?
My problem here isn’t with Karate. It’s with the crazy attitude of the practitioners. All this, “it takes a lifetime to master” sounds a lot like what we heard when GSP was going to fight KOS or Fitch – trade footwork for hips and you’re halfway to madlibs in fact. But the reason GSP got so good in wrestling so fast is not that Karate ACTUALLY takes forever to learn and wrestling doesn’t – it’s that GSP is an elite athlete. Sure, it’d take you or I (moreso you) years to get good at Shotokan – but what’s your estimate for GSP? 6 months? 6 weeks?
Shotokan isn’t the end all and be all, and Machida isn’t good at it only because he trained forever – he’s good at it because he’s a great athlete to begin with. Training in athletics his whole life helped, no matter what sport.
Back to the karate/wrestling thing: the reason there are so many great America wrestlers in MMA and so few karate guys is obvious to anyone: go down to your local Karate tournament and then go to a wrestling tournament. Guess where you’ll find more natural athletes?
All I’m saying is: every time some new badass shows up from a different TMA we have to hear about how awesome the TMA is. It’s getting silly.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he he
I didn’t realize I was being poetic.
I guess Machida really tickles by chi bone.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Judo chop on him sometime?
Actually I just want an excuse for more slow motion Machida gifs…
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 27, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care what bone he tickes you with…
Care to address any of my points? :-P
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that you're mis-applying some sound principles in this case
Its not some huckster saying Machida-do Shotokan Karate takes a lifetime to master. Its the case that Lyoto has spent a lifetime mastering the techniques. Luke points that out not to raise the intrigue level of shotokan, but rather to show his skepticism that shotokan ala Machida can be widely applied in mma.
Its also true that Shotokan is premised on endless repetition to master a few basic moves completely before those moves are ever applied in sparring situations, much less in sport combat.
Shotokan doesn’t even allow sparring until the black belt level.
I have a hard time imagining many combat athletes wishing to enhance their skill in MMA are going to be willing to attain a black belt before they start trying to apply it in the ring/cage.
Also there is the question of unlearning habits picked up in boxing, muay thai, kickboxing, wrestling, etc.
Machida started with a blank slate and didn’t have to unlearn another system before learning shotokan.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As writer of the original letter....
Thank you Nate. I think you may be the only one to grasp what the original concept was. It wasn’t to illustrate whether Shotokan karate can or cannot be used in MMA. It wasn’t to discuss whether or not Lyoto used or didn’t use his Shotokan training (whatever that means??). It was to say that karate in particular will most likely never become a main stream portion of MMA simply because of it’s training practices. Boring, boring and more boring. Unless you have a real appreciation of karate’s long term goals, you will never understand.
by Daveyboy on May 28, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I question whether “the way it’s always been taught” is “the only way to teach it.”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 28, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not so much that it takes a lifetime to master, it’s that it isn’t the most convenient martial art to learn for the emerging athlete coming from amateur wrestling and wants to transition to MMA within 2-3 years. It’s easier for them to learn kickboxing and be effective in MMA at the pro level.
No GSP could not learn Shotokan inside of 6 months. I’ve heard of particularly talented individuals pick it up at a pace of 2-3 years enough that they could apply it in real life context or in MMA competition perhaps. But that is 2-3 years of DEDICATED training I’m talking nothing else no wrestling nothing. It’s just not convenient. Also add that most instructors won’t rush anyone through training there is a principle in how you space out training in Shotokan that is generally adhered to. Even if the person is real talented you need them to learn patience and self-discipline it is very much a spiritual art first and foremost, being able to use it for competition comes secondary.
My point is that Shotokan Karate TEACHES the finer points of the stand up game most other forms of striking leave out or don’t cover in much depth at all. They don’t refine the understanding, they are vague on those points.Shotokan is just much more organized and structured for learning than boxing or kickboxing or Muay Thai.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here here....
You may like this Daniel….
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/5/28/891457/nobody-uses-karate
by Daveyboy on May 28, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RE: WOW
The main reason why Shotokan could not be highlighted in MMA until Lyoto is there weren’t really many if any Shotokan stylists that had any background in wrestling, muay thai, BJJ, etc. Shotokan needed the right context and the right application and the right person to make it shine. But the fundamentals were always sound and imo supersede what is taught in most boxing and kickboxing classes on multiple levels when it comes to striking. I’m not saying you can’t hit with power or can’t be effective in a fight if you train boxing or kickboxing, I’m saying you compromise a lot of power and your center of gravity in those arts way too much AND you take way too much damage. Even if you win a kickboxing match you beat the shit out of your legs. Cro Cop talks about the beating his legs take after fights in several interviews. Boxers fuck up their hands and elbows all the time.
Royce’s family had already spent years adapting their jiu-jitsu for challenge matches so when the UFC started, it was created very much in the way the old challenge matches were carried out in Brazil. Of course, Royce excelled. But in time, MMA/UFC fighters will have to learn what it is about their striking technique that makes them so vulnerable to Lyoto the same way UFC fighters had to learn what made them vulnerable to Royce. And the only way they will learn this is by understanding Shotokan. Traditional boxing coaches and Muay Thai coaches won’t be much help all they can do is generalize and say ‘Lyoto has great timing’ but they say it as if it is an uncanny physical skill. They don’t really know why his timing is good, what components of his striking technique give him an edge and what aspects of their technique make them vulnerable. They will never figure that out on their own they need to understand Shotokan.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 4:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
IMO its just that Shotokan combines really well with urine drinking
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never trained in THAT. Now that is ALL Machida.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone said this on the UG:
“The man gets up at 5:30 in the morning to drink his own piss because he believes it gives him an edge. Now that is dedication.”
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 27, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or madness. I know what I think…
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was intrigued in the Countdown show by Lyoto’s training by strking while slaloming around cones. That’s clearly not traditional Shotokan Karate – is it his father’s innovation?
Also: if Shotokan is so badass, what are the odds on Lyoto’s brother in a grudge match against Rashad? :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good to see I wasn’t the only person that noticed that drill.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 27, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, right? I don’t know how helpful dodging shit on the ground is in the octagon, but it’s got to be helping his balance.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to have to jump over rotating poles and throw kick combos then do push ups and then do more kick combos then do block combos. I also had to train standing on a tire and doing walking drills with people on my back and all kinds of other things. I did training similar to Machida not negotiating cones per se but similar.
Once you get past a basic level in Shotokan, you start training movement. Your thieghs and calves and feet are really strong and so is your center of gravity. You know how to maintain your balance when standing even if people push you hard or pull at you from any direction you don’t go down you do that training during the beginning stages. You always go back to it down the line, you always reinforce the basics but after a while you do more advanced things like moving, jumping and you even practice some throws.
When you start with movement you got to learn to control your balance and center of gravity while moving. You do lots of moving drills, footwork drills, blocking drills. After some time you start getting into hitting drills to maintain your accuracy you see Machida practicing this as after he dodges a cone he has to recenter himself and then kick or punch with accuracy. It’s looks like a very good drill and much harder to do than it looks like.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daniel Larusso is coming to kick Machida’s ass… Mr Miagee knows how to handle this shit.
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 6:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
HELL TO THE YES.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something I think a lot of people look past when discussing Machida, is the simple fact that the guy is inhumanly talented. Look at the combo that dropped Evans in the first round. K1 strikers dream of combos like that, reminded me of Overeem Hari actually. Machida can pull off his style because he has insane handspeed, reflexes and intelligence. That is natural, has little to do with karate. Thats one of the reasons why I don’t think there will be many more karate fighters entering MMA, few other practitioners are as talented as Lyoto, his natural ability enables him to utilise his karate techniques like nobody else
by StevenGiles on May 27, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Dude, saying that Lyoto is responsible for his own success doesn’t put students in the dojo.
I’m gonna save up my arguments for the next conversation where a wise old sensei tells us that the reason there aren’t more karatekas is that their style is TOO deadly and would EASILY KILL anyone in an MMA match. You know, like Wing Chun and Chi Fighting.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ. -- TangleBones
by jemaleddin on May 27, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m still trying to get over my bias towards Karate…
There’s a Karate school in my town that stopped teaching Karate, and started teaching “MMA.” I put it quotes because they have no idea what they’re doing… Actually anyone that knows how to fight, whether or not they’ve had training, could beat 90% of them half to death. Their number one skill is the hay-maker punch…
They also talk shit about my local Taekwondo school…
None of them have actually had a MMA fight… Actually they won’t do anything with anyone outside of their school, but they love to talk mad shit.
by EnsignFrog on May 27, 2009 6:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is an example of the sports karate that Lyoto grew up doing. Ask any legit instructor and they will say that this is only a small part of shotokan. THis is not the end all be all — but still much better than what most see in the states.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0
by artelussonnier on May 27, 2009 7:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kumite is an aspect that you train in Shotokan. Probably more emphasis is placed on Kata (at least that was the case with me) but a heavy emphasis is placed on Kumite. Some schools eschew the notion of competing in tournaments, others embrace it.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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