Is Lyoto Machida the Second Instantiation of Royce Gracie?
by Luke Thomas on May 27, 2009 9:30 AM EDT
in News
90 comments
Over at Sherdog.com, I ponder whether Lyoto Machida's in-cage abilities and accomplishments will help spawn a renewed emphasis in traditional martial arts for MMA purposes and, if so, what would it take for that to happen and what such a revolution might look like:
For brevity’s sake I am simplifying the historical record, but this is essentially where the chemical reactions began. Catch wrestlers picked up the guard game, strikers learned how to control posture and defend the takedown and wrestlers learned their over-under clinch to set up opportunities for knees, uppercuts and elbows.
Another major transformation, should such a thing actually happen, will likely be far slower than the Gracie jiu-jitsu catalyst remaking the martial arts landscape in 1993. Part of it is that much of the known world is already conquered; there isn’t as much territory left to explore.
Additionally, one must always remember that what the host country of the early UFCs could offer helped eventually mold the product and guide the transformation. There may not be armies of kick boxers within its borders, but America was home to hordes of wrestlers of considerable skill long before Rorion Gracie and Semaphore Entertainment Group toyed with the idea of putting a moat around the Octagon. That wrestling became such an integral component on the modern MMA repertoire speaks as much to its effectiveness as it does to its prevalence on the soil from which the sport got one of its most major lifts. For another martial arts revolution to take place, MMA must be both highly mobile and easily accessible, something that is only now becoming a reality in the world’s richest nation. India will have to wait its turn.
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This has quickly gotten out of hand
Machida is an amazing fighter, but he JUST got a title.
Matt Serra had a title a minute ago and not too many people started flying out to Long Island to train Serra BJJ
by Flyghtt on May 27, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Serra wasnt dominating every opponent on his way to the title. false comparison.
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read the article, then comment. The piece has very little to do with Machida’s particular style or even karate.
by Luke Thomas on May 27, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I skimmed it
My main pet right now is everyone referring it as “Traditional Martial Arts” are back.
Muay Thai is a Traditinal Martial Art and alot older than Shotokan Karate.
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on May 27, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except I didn’t say that all. I said it’s an open question, not that TMAs are back.
by Luke Thomas on May 27, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t referring to you, just the whole broad conception of the subject right now
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on May 27, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends how many people become qulaified under Machida style Shotokan Karate
Food goes in here
by Pandanus on May 27, 2009 9:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The gracies had many members from its family and students transitioning into MMA
The same is not true to the machidas. Karate is already used by some athletes such as gsp and chuck, and I’m sure more ppl will look into some aspects from karate such as angles and evasions to add to their arsenals, but I don’t think we’ll see another fighter such as lyoto using karate as a base anytime soon.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 9:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right, I said as much in the piece. I’m assuming based on some of these comments no one’s going to read it and instead just comment on the headline.
by Luke Thomas on May 27, 2009 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s because most ppl (including myself) did not read the full article in sherdog, and just read what you quoted here. why not just paste the whole article from sherdog here so ppl will get the full story? some of us are lazy, it’s a curse :P
by orcus on May 27, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
…because that’s called stealing content.
by cyph on May 27, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida Karate and Gracie JJ is different in this respect:
The Gracie JJ guys were all dominating because nobody new this art (royce, rickson, etc…).
Machida is dominating… there has yet to come another fighter from this “art” to be even close to dominant.
So is it Machida or is it the “art” or a combination. When royce was kicking ass – it wasnt really royce it was Gracie JJ.
Right now its Machida kicking ass and he uses Karate as a core facet. Yeah Karate will benefit greatly from this – but until another fighter can replicate what Machida has done using this art then its all misdirected.
Innovation occurs in every industry and then an evolution takes place… we are in the beginning stages of an evolution in the stand up game. .. primarily in the areas of footwork and timing (offensively and defensively).
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 9:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Might well turn out to be that Machida himself is what makes him so difficult to beat – not his style. Still, his existence and success may end up opening people’s eyes to a few unexplored avenues to creating a functional MMA skillset. Who knows what kind of combinations we’ll end up seeing?
by lhasafi on May 27, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida is dominating because he’s trained martial arts since he was born, from morning til night. As we get more athletes who train martial arts since the beginning, we will start to see fighter with amazing skills like Machida. He’s like the Shaolin Monks, training 16 hours a day since 5. Unfortunately, for the Rashad Evans of the world who have learned their arts late, their athleticism won’t make up for lost time.
To evolve one martial arts into another form ala Bruce Lee, one must live it. How many athletes today can we say grew up with martial arts in their blood? Very few.
by cyph on May 27, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The main thing is
people will now be taking a second look at alternate approaches.
For a long time it was believed that we “knew” that BJJ/wrestling/muay thai was the ideal combination of arts in MMA.
Now we see that there are alternate paths.
Exciting times.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
in a way it still is
let’s face it, Machida is one tuff mofo, but that’s the athlete, not the art. Machida’s style helps him plenty, but it’s Lyoto who executes it flawless. bjj/muy thai is still an awesome combination, anderson silva is proof of that. It’s really up to the athlete to show off their skills, rather than the styles itself. Of course you have to choose the correct art to help your cause, but it’s really up to the fighter to execute it well.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for sure
but i’m just talking about theory here, not practice.
Machida is just a hint at what’s possible.
Keep in mind that the Chinese army trains millions in san shou every year. Some of those guys are going to be gifted athletes.
Some of those gifted athletes will see MMA, learn jiu jitsu and they’re off.
San Shou is very intriguing to me since they have a complete stand up system and a very effective greco/judo based clinch fighting game.
If they can fill in their blank spots on the ground, they’re going to be very interesting.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
socialized MMA training… pretty soon the government will tell you which gyms you can access.
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
works for the cuban national boxing and judo team.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I see what you mean and I agree
shit, even cung lee found some success (but he sure needs to put some time to introduce a ground game). but still.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The guys dominating the mma scene here in the philippines
Are the wushu guys.. Pretty much similar (or the same) as sanshou (if I’m not mistaken).. They have weird ass kicks coming from different angles plus good takedowns, clinch, and takedown defense which usually leads to GNP or KOs from those deadly kicks..
But granted, the mma scene here isn’t as developed compared to other countries, I can see the potential of branching out in other directions and styles, like Nate was saying.
by Anton Tabuena on May 27, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tell us more!
I’d love to see and hear more about that.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest I’ve only attended 1 mma show here live.. But I’ve watched a couple of fights by the best fighter in the country’s biggest promotion.. And he comes from the National wushu team.. (wushu was only a special event in the Asian games.. But they won gold)
And from the look of things they pretty much have decent submission defense, but they really rely on their unorthodox strikes and TAkedown D..
I’ll surely try to attend the next event they put up, and I’ll probably post about it if I get the chance.. :)
by Anton Tabuena on May 27, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely do
and if you find anything online link us up — extra points for translations and videos!
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, sure thing.. Their next card is in the province so I can’t attend that. But I’ll most likely attend their July card which will probably be more stacked since it’s in Manila.
And their vids are mostly English if I’m not mistaken so you guys won’t have that much problem understanding it. :)
I’ll try to find old fights and post about it soon.. I can’t right now cause its almost 2am here and I’m on my itouch.. I need to get some sleep. Haha
by Anton Tabuena on May 27, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
polarizing figure world wide appeal
Good read Luke. I don’t see a problem with fighters being versed in multiple styles. The Samurai were said to be experts in as many as 10 styles some had more. I think Machida opens the door for more traditional practitioners a give the sport legitimacy. He is more marketable to a world wide audience than a tattoo sporting western looking type athlete. I think what is forgotten about the Gracies is their marketing ability that comes with a global label, we all know the big G. Also the number of family representatives who promoted and fought for the honor of their art and name. I think this could give MMA some serious hold in the sports world and put our sport in the category of Soccer/Futbol. Wide base appeal national pride and widely accessible to a diverse audience.
by son of miss the mark on May 27, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
the idea that machida represents change is possible but historically theres a lot of figures like him. jay palmer was a monster at one time and he was a tkd guy. in the end people solved him and he became a tomato can. we may learn in a fight or two that machidas style makes him a sucker for body punching and straight rights and then its a wrap.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 10:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That could happen. We’ll have to wait and see. I certainly don’t rule anything out at this point.
by Luke Thomas on May 27, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
machidas beating these guys without needing to adjust what he does. maybe when someone gets him in trouble, he turns out to have no plan b? there might not be another dimension to him, just one really good one. sometimes it works out though. chuck’s big run happened when he decided to be a one dimensional counter puncher.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida does adjust though. He adapts on the fly to the particular weakness of his opponent. A lack of flexibility is not his problem.
by toxic on May 27, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't know who jay palmer is
but went to sherdog and pulled up a record for a jay palmer and his first 20 professional fights he went 5-14-0-1. is this the same guy? if it is that’s a terrible example.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
right guy, incomplete record. and yeah, people thought that jay r was one of the baddest dudes out at one point. then he started losing.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but is sherdog missing his first few fights?
because according to them, his first three fights were losses, then two wins and then three more losses.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, they are. mma.tv has the only legit records these days. you look him up there and you’ll see he went 12-0 to start. supposedly he even had more fights than that on smokers and was like 15-0 or 16-0.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I went there and I’m really not trying to be an ass here but I feel this is a terrible example. it appears all his first wins were against ppl fighting for the first time, and it seems they all have losing records. Machida has always fought against veterans since his very first MMA bout. But I agree with you that it could be a case of someone figuring out his weaknesses and that could give him more challenges in the future, I just think this jay palmer guy is a bad example of that happening.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this was in like 1996. everyone was basically fighting for the first time, especially if they werent heavyweights. thats like complaining that vovchanchin couldnt have been the best heavyweight in the world in 1997.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
still doesn't make me go aww
MMA had many veterans by 96, but I understand smaller shows probably had many ppl fighting for their first time and he got many of them. It’s still not a great accomplishment if you think about it. Had the ppl he fought gone on to have winning records at least it would make a difference. but beating 15 first timers’ is not that great of an accomplishment in my view, at least not one to be comparable to machida’s and giving an example of saying ppl hadn’t figured him out, that would have been a different story had he fought the tank abots’, the mark kerr’s, the shamrock’s, the vitor belforts’, the wanderlei silva’s or sakuraba’s of the time. machida is being very hard to figure out by the same level list of today’s top fighters.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's not saying the guy looks good in retrospect
he said AT THE TIME people thought Palmer was the shit.
He’s also totally wrong about Palmer using TKD effectively. Palmer had strip mall level TKD at best.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m just saying there is a difference in ‘virgins’ not being able to figure a guy out which appears to have been the case of palmer and veterans not able to figure a guy out which is the case of machida.
by orcus on May 27, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
its a different world
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it is a bad example
but you’re forgetting that in 1996 EVERYBODY was fighting for the first time.
Jay was winning 2nd tier tournaments in dramatic fashion and looked like an up and comer.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the telescope of history distorts
check this post about Jay.
He went 12-0 in 1996.
At the time no one knew he would drop so many fights in the future.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difficult part of solving Machida is that he knows all the styles his opponents use and in most cases is proficient in it himself…
So if someone does solve him I think it will have to come from a totally different style… like drunken master kung fu or some shit.
by mmalogic on May 27, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see Cung Le vs Machida
Le’s kicks come from so far to the outside that it would be interesting.
Fight would have to be at 185 of course.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huge difference
Jay Palmer didn’t use his TKD at all. He fought as a ground and pound brawler who just out powered his opponents.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
jay r palmer had some throws but he was no ground and pound brawler in the majority of his fights.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he used almost no technique at any facet of the game
he epitomized retard fu — a naturally strong guy who won with pure brutality and instinct.
His early wins featured several stomps to the head and beat downs onthe ground.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldnt say palmer was chambering punches or anything, but his background was straight tkd. he was passable standing too and threw his fair share of sidekicks. ill agree that it was pure strength over technique really.
you know who else has a big tkd background? cro cop.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting about Cro Cop
Palmer was pretty thoroughly exposed on his feet the first time he fought a muay thai guy.
He was only passable standing against complete noobs.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the same could be true about machida. not that evans is a “noob” but he’s no seasoned, world renowned striker. neither is thiago silva, tito, or vernon white. fundamental boxing from someone mildly fluid with it might be all you need.
actually, come to think of it, vernon white was a tkd guy who had just started at lions den when he started getting booked in pancrase. you may note that he got submitted A LOT
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trying to say he was a wrestler
he certainly had no wrestling technique, just that his fights were ugly brawls, mostly on the ground.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TKD is more like fencing where it can be a touch that scores, whereas in karate knockouts are more common place and it has a lot harder contact. I do agree that time will tell. Would the drunken master pass the piss test?Machidas jujitsu is not the strongest part of his game (black belt in 06). Tito exposed a glimmer of weakness and if someone can exploit that I think that would be a solid possibility. That being said jujitsu fighters have not had the best of luck so far.
by son of miss the mark on May 27, 2009 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Drunken master kung fu in MMA? Man, that would really be something of a sight – especially if someone was able to implement it succesfully :)
by lhasafi on May 27, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My life would be complete if somebody got all Jackie Chan up in the octagon.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 27, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s only a matter of time. It’s why I love MMA.
by subo on May 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
depends on the school of karate. a lot of schools are point fighting only. full contact really faded away after the 70s. the last 20 years are more about forms and breaking than throwing a full force headkick for the majority of dojos.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When I was a kid I studied Karate and we went very full contact with the sparring, maybe more than 8 and 9 year old kids should. We also learned some basic throws and did a ton of breakfalls. I think I only saw board breaking once in the whole time I was there. For a long time I thought everybody learned Karate like that. Hell, if I could find a place that taught like that now I’d consider going back, but my impression is that they’re mighty rare in the US.
by FRANKIE on May 27, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSP, Anderson Silva, Stephan Bonnar and Davis Loiseau
have all incorporated TKD moves into MMA with great effect — spinning back kick much?
Anderson was TKD before he was Muay Thai.
The difference is that they have incorporated the TKD moves into a muay thai system (less so GSP, he’s blended it with a kyokushin kickboxing style) rather than basing their striking style on TKD.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think too much is being made of what Machida's style brings to the table here.
I think the reason that it works for him is that he has some incredible tools.
He is very fast and accurate. Most people made so much of Rashad’s speed and power going into this fight. Machida was clearly the faster fighter and was not lacking for power.
Also Machida has amazing instincts, especially for counter punching.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
totally disagree
His style gives him some huge advantages.
The odd stance, the lean back, the double strikes from the same side (left kick/left punch combinations), the blocks, those things are giving guys fits.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree but I think that without his speed and accuracy it wouldn’t work. I think other fighters will find little success with the hands down, lean back approach.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
for sure
its a two part system — its also virtually impossible to replicate his training from the cradle.
But his opponents are going to need to find some shotokan specialists to train with.
I’d be very interested to see if Pat Barry cut down to 205 how he would handle Machida.
Karate is quite common in the K1 circuit.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’d get taken down.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 27, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
beg to differ
the thing you guys are missing about Cung Le and san shou is that its a take down oriented system. His use of greco and judo techniques isn’t just solid, its awesome.
The real edge he has is he instinctively combines kicks on the outside range with lightening fast throws on the inside.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you talking about Pat Barry? That’s who I was talking about.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 27, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
barry has a history in san shou, actually. still, he never ascended to any real fame as a kickboxer and hes a pretty short dude. combine that with fear of potential takedown attempts and i dont see a 205 barry being really effective, assuming he could ever make the weight.
otoh, give karaev or spong a year or so of takedown defense and you have a fight.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool article, Luke
Quick question: How traditional is Machida’s Karate style?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 27, 2009 12:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
its a weird off shoot
from wikipedia:
(松濤館流, Shōtōkan-ryū?) is a style of karate, developed from various martial arts by Gichin Funakoshi (1868–1957) and his son Gigo (Yoshitaka) Funakoshi (1906–1945). Gichin was born in Okinawa. And he brought karate to Honshū – Tokyo during the 1910s and 1920s,1 but Funakoshi is widely credited with having popularized karate through a series of public demonstrations, and by promoting the development of university karate clubs, including those at Keio, Waseda, Hitotsubashi (Shodai), Takushoku, Chuo, Gakushuin, and Hosei.2 Funakoshi had many students at the university clubs and outside dojos, who continued to teach karate after his death in 1957. However, internal disagreements led to the creation of different organizations—including an initial split between the Japan Karate Association (headed by Masatoshi Nakayama) and the Shotokai (headed by Shigeru Egami), followed by many others—so that today there is no single “Shotokan school”, although they all bear Funakoshi’s influence.
His father than split Shotokan into a very unique system heavily emphasizing footwork.
Most Karate based strikers in MMA and K1 are Kyokushin (GSP) or Kempo (Chuck Liddell).
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like someone who really knows K1
to do a write up about which fighters came from Karate backgrounds.
I know the late great Andy Hug did.
Who else?
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure Feitosa comes from Kyokushin. Not sure about others.
by FRANKIE on May 27, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
semmy schilt. sataake. francisco filho. teixiera. all emerged from kyokushin along with feitosa.
by nigelzackit on May 27, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida is one of a kind.
Karate is his base, but his natural gifts are what make him so special. That being said, I don’t know if there will be a larger revolution occuring, but I think if Machida can stay champ for a while, there could be some real impetus for fighters to look towards traditional martial arts and implement parts of it, whether it’s certain techniques or having a base discipline in it. I think some options have opened up and the book will be reopened on traditional martial arts. There are more options.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on May 27, 2009 12:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Cool article
I like your main point that components of Shotokan Karate could be understood and sort of implemented in today’s martial artists. The mistake with Rashad was that he had WAY too much faith in boxing he didn’t realize how he would naturally start to measure his distance based on his arm reach was a recipe for disaster against Machida. Also, he would expose his reset period I mean that brief 0.5-1 second where you let your mind relax or ‘reset’ itself after executing a movement. For example, Rashad would throw a kick or a few punches than back up and let his hands down to reset himself and think his next strategy and little by little Machida would be closing the distance by inching forward, cutting off the space between them until he got to kicking distance. Rashad kept doing this until before he knew it he was in Machida’s kicking range. And Machida threw a few kicks to test Rashad’s reactions. When he saw Rashad in that unprotected moment, what Machida calls ‘kyo’ where you can’t react your mind is recovering from the last reaction you made, he pounced on Rashad. That is pure Shotokan training and Machida isn’t the only one that can do this, he is the anolomy that can survive in the UFC and demonstrate this skill to the MMA community in a context they beleive is ‘real’.
I attribute Rashad’s ability to keep from being swept on the feet only due to his remarkable reflexes and speed because he was caught off balance on more than one occasion but Machida couldn’t capitalize. Things like striking without lifting your back heel, measuring distance, knowing how not to leave yourself exposed are all things that can be ‘taken’ from Shotokan Karate the same way the guard or arm bar was taken from BJJ or the Plum clinch was taken from Muay Thai.
The comparisons with GSP and Jeff Newton don’t really apply. Jeff Newton had a very limited ground game and Hogar took him down immediately. We never saw what he could do with his Karate in a pure MMA context. GSP hardly employs his Kyokushin Karate training in his repertoire, his kicks and punches are almost entirely based on boxing and Muay Thai in his last several fights. He really only represents Karate in spirit and in the Karate Kid style headband he wears to the ring.
People say Machida leans back in his stance, but in reality he is standing straight with good posture so as not be off balance. His control over his center of gravity, and his sumo training that reinforced this skill, contributed to the success he had in transitioning to training in wrestling with R1. The fundamentals could be reapplied to other arts is my main point. Usually boxers and kickboxers hunch over or lean over in their stances unwittingly compromising their center of gravity to maintain a defensive, huddled up type of posture. You can kind of see how Chuck Liddell experimented with traditional karate posture in developing his own interpretation that was effective for letting him strike with power but also being ready to defend a takedown. The biggest mistake with Chuck is he became so enamored with KOing people with his hands he developed a bad habit of keeping his hands down while in punching range. A habit he developed from Karate but only ok if you are out of punching range and you aren’t leaning over open to a head kick.
At the same time, Shotokan Karate is very different from Kyokushin or Kenpo or most any other style of Karate – so much they are almost unrecognizable from each other. JSKA or ISKA endorsed Shotokan Karate has an extreme emphasis on controlling your center of gravity and stance and posture. In Kyokushin and Kenpo, you don’t have nearly as much emphasis on stance and have much more liberty with how you throw strikes, Shotokan is very strict in many respects.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 1:26 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
great post
green this!
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rec’d. This is like an additional fanpost.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 27, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shotokan is not that strict. Where did you get that? Kicks whether they are MT, Kickboxing or karate or not that different. In fact — at intermediate levels of shotokan training different variations of kicks or taught and some look exactly like MT and kickboxing kicks. What is effective is based on physics not style – if the physics are right the technique will be right. The reason we will never see a lot of shotokan karateka fight in the UFC is that it simply takes a long time to make it effective, since it takes a longer time to learn to fight at that distance.
How does one define TMA — MT is traditional. BJJ is traditional — most of its components were practiced in Japan in the 19th century. One can argue that the MORE traditional the art the more effective it is. So — are you saying that these crap dojos around the US are traditional. Define TMA before writing about it.
by artelussonnier on May 27, 2009 4:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
artelussonnier
What are you talking about? You NEVER kick with your shin in Shotokan always with the balls of your feet or ridge or possibly the heel always a small surface area. You never lift your back heel when you strike you do this all the time in MT. THEY LOOK NOTHING ALIKE. Wath this video about 3:32 in there is a perfect Shotokan style roundhouse in slo mo you can see the BALLS of the feet strike not the shin like in MT. (turn down the sound the music sucks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcCNsxs9Ovw&feature=player_embedded
You never lift your back foot because that compromises the physics of your striking. It compromises the center of gravity. All striking in Shotokan is down with proper pivoting and movement of the hips first. In MT and kickboxing you have many strikes, very popular ones like what is called the super man punch or other strikes were the force is generated by leaping or pivoting your feet first. Fundamentally different.
My point isn’t when will we see a Shotokan Karate master in the UFC like Lyoto, probably not any time soon takes forever to master + add in other disciplines they have to learn. But today’s MMA fighter can learn enough about Shotokan to not make them so vulnerable to Lyoto or even Anderson Silva or guys with top level striking.
Shotokan is extremely strict in many ways. Like I said there are specific things about Shotokan you never do. Now Lyoto does break some of those rules he does kick with the outside of his foot or shin MT style but that is a compromise he makes to set up his other strikes. So he has made his own style of Karate that is not endorsed by the JSKA, ISKA the main organizations that preserve traditional Shotokan Karate. I’m not saying any JSKA or ISKA endorsed school is good, there are crappy ones, but they are preserving the tenets of traditional Shotokan Karate. And what is more, what goes into making a school good, even if the theory behind the fundamentals they teach is sound, is that the school itself is must be demanding and difficult. It should be hard, you should bleed and sweat and cry and be in much pain. Most strip mall karate dojos take away a lot of these elements to make their product more palatable to consumers. So it doesn’t always matter that the art is traditional or not, that is why MFS has been so successful even though many of their fighters have terrible BJJ and striking technique. Because you get the shit beat out of you at MFS and if you can make it through that, and learn a few tricks along the way and get in shape, and you had a solid foundation in wrestling or boxing to begin with, you could do well as a pro MMA fighter. But what they taught at MFS in terms of technique was a lot of garbage, self-invented, misguided stuff.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 5:08 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Okay, but I can’t rec every post you make.
by subo on May 27, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to hear more details of your critique of MFS
not that I doubt you (or that I take it on faith) just interested in learning more.
What are some of the misguided techniques Miletich is teaching?
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is the best striker to come out of MFS? sylvia? mcfedries?
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 27, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spencer Fisher and Jens Pulver
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 27, 2009 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry but at advanced levels of shotokan training the shin is employed at times and the back heel is lifted when executing gyaku zuki. I agree with you whole completely however that we do need to distinguish between legit schools and the crap you were talking about.
by artelussonnier on May 27, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The shin is NEVER employed. Name one kick where you use the shin like you do in MT. Sure you might lift your back heel, you also do jump kicks in Shotokan but you don’t do them unless you have good reason. If the opponent is in front of you with no weapon, you don’t jump kick. Not only is it considered poor form, it is also violating the spirit of the teaching of Shotokan which is the quickest way to your destination is a straight line. If you anticipate a sweep, then yes you jump kick or you adapt your kick and if you must lift your back heel then so be it there are these moves covered as well. But it isn’t what you do to generate your power. In boxing you are taught to pivot your back foot on the balls of your feet from day one when learning to throw a punch. That’s my point, that is the conflict with Shotokan.
You can spot a Shotokan kick a mile away they are very distinct. And what is more, you train about 95% of the time on about 3-4 basic kicks even at black belt level. You really don’t train exotic kicks that much, Shotokan is more about completely mastering a few techniques rather than trying to be only ‘good’ at several. I used to train front kick, reverse kick, roundhouse front kick, straight side kick, underarm side kick and back kick about 90% of the time. I can’t remember the japanese names it’s been a long time.
I made it to purple belt only but I spent about every weekend with my Sensei 2 hour practice on Saturdays, 1 hour teaching then strength and conditioning (weights and running) and kata training on Sundays. He would discuss techniques with me that were beyond my level and one of the first things we taught is NO SHIN kicking. You create microfissures in the shin bone it is not healthy. Just because Lyoto does it doesn’t mean that is endorsed by Shotokan Karate. He uses shin kicks and MT kicks a lot to set up a punch or a knee or a Shotokan kick. Also, Lyoto doesn’t shin kick like crazy he uses it more as a nuisance so he can set up other blows or study his opponents reaction. He doesn’t shin kick like say Rich Franklin did against Matt Hammil or Cung Le did against Frank Shamrock.
by DanielH on May 27, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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