Greg Jackson Took The Wrong Lesson From Thiago Silva's Loss to Lyoto Machida
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 6:36 PM EDT
in News
116 comments
I am no MMA coach, so I am loathe to criticize Greg Jackson for the strategy he designed for Rashad Evans. But I can't shake the idea that Rashad came into this fight with a terrible strategy. I heard the idea of making Machida strike first in a number of places, but dismissed it out of hand. Little did I know it would be Rashad's strategy at UFC 98.
People saw Thiago Silva get picked apart and concluded that you can't move forward against Lyoto Machida. They took the wrong lesson from the fight. It's worth first considering that Thiago moved forward with his hands down in reckless fashion. Nobody should conclude that because he lost via reckless pursuit, any pursuit at all is futile.
Thiago Silva was knocked down by Antonio Mendes, and had a very ugly slugfest with Drwal. Nobody ever confused him for an elite striker. That Drwal fight tells the true story of Silva's standing game, he is willing to be hit in the head over and over just to get his shots in, and that strategy had no chance against Machida.
I maintain that beating Machida will take a constant and measured pursuit. His opponent will have to continually move forward, try to cut off the cage, and smother him. Will it be easy? Hell no! Machida is amazing at moving around the cage, and nobody has been successful with this strategy yet. But sitting on the outside and allowing Machida to dictate the exchanges is a recipe for disaster.
The other bothersome thing to me was Rashad's head hunting. Machida's leaning stance combined with his reaction time and footwork makes it nearly impossible to hit him in the face from the outside. His leaning stance necessarily leaves an opening to the body, guys need to circle to their right (Machida's left) and attack his body.
Whenever people discuss fighting Fedor, they try to think of the one thing they can beat him. They look for the silver bullet. People are doing it with Machida too, but he's too good all-around. There is no silver bullet. Whoever beats him will need an excellent chin, good defense, patience, cardio, good wrestling, good balance, good clinch skills, and the ability to do significant damage on the inside. Oh, and one more thing...they'll need to be very lucky too.
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me thinks
the best way to beat machida would be on the ground, forget the striking part of the game. lyoto has a black belt in bjj, but it would take a high level bjj fighter to try to catch him on the ground. getting him to the ground is another story though. there is one thing I remember from the tito and rashad fights, is that lyoto is trying to be more aggressive. in the tito fight, when he hit tito with a knee to the liver, he followed up for the kill and got triangled. in the rashad fight, he also got a clean shot on rashad and went in for the kill just to be hit twice by two right hooks from rashad (if that was page it could have been over). lyoto is trying to be more aggressive and that could be his downfall in the future. I don’t think it will happen, because I just don’t see anyone beating him any time soon (maybe shogun), but if anyone beats him I think it will be when he goes in for the kill and gets sloppy only to get surprised by his opponent.
by orcus on May 25, 2009 6:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How is Shogun going to beat him? Take that left hook he decked Chuck with. Lyoto could probably land 4 strikes, take a nap, wake up, and then avoid by the time it took to get there. He is a forward moving striker who doesn’t have good defense. I doubt he survives a round.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
shogun is an elite muy thai striker
and also an elite bjj fighter. he’s also a very smart fighter, he could play possum and lure machida in which was my example after all.
by orcus on May 25, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worst myth ever. Shogun is not an elite muay thai striker. He’s not even a good striker. His form is terribly sloppy, he’s not accurate, he doesn’t set up his power punches (usually throws wild lunging hooks), etc. His main attack on his feet is just barreling forwards, sticking his head down, and throwing hooks. Heck, KazNak outstruck him.
by ilostmydog on May 25, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol, I think your description is best suited for wandy than shogun. shogun is an elite striker, he outstruck alistair in their first bout, quiton and lil’ nog who’s got some of the best boxig for mma. I’m not saying he would definitely beat machida, but I give him a chance.
by orcus on May 25, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, no. Shogun is as wild as they come. He’s not technically proficient and he’s not an elite striker. The ground is where his bread and butter lies.
by ilostmydog on May 25, 2009 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun is an elite striker at one technique: kicking downed fighters in the head.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on May 25, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
ok lol
we’re definitely not going to chance each other’s opinion on the matter, so there is no point in arguing it back and forth. But I’ll tell you this, I hope they give shogun shad on the rebound and he’ll destroy him just as good as machida did :P
by orcus on May 25, 2009 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun would get KTFO by machida, far too wild...
and heaven forbid the fight leave the first round. Just because he looked markedly improved vs chuck I can’t seem to get that disaster he was involved in with coleman. I have that image of him sitting on coleman trying to get the gogo and looking like he was gonna pass out. I look forward to seeing more shogun and think rashad would be an awesome matchup.
by crinow on May 25, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida won't be forcing a grueling wrestling match
like Coleman did.
Neither Coleman nor Shogun trained enough ground fighting for that one and they both gassed from the unusual exertion.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 25, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but we are talking about 2 -3 minutes into the first round. If your hands are at your sides and you are breathing through your mouth after 2-3 minutes than you are ill prepared for the fight in general.
by crinow on May 26, 2009 6:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 25, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun with good cardio may cause Machida some stamina problems of his own in the later rounds because of the relentless pace he brings to his fights. Machida would certainly be the favourite but too many people are writing off Shogun as being no better than Thiago Silva, which is just way off.
by rabrown on May 25, 2009 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shogun with good cardio?
When has that ever happened?
by FRANKIE on May 26, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watch his 30 minute war with Lil’Nog. It was a cardio clinic by both fighters and one of the more exciting mma matches I’ve ever seen. It was purely awesome. He went balls out in his slaughtering of Rampage too, though it didn’t last the whole fight, he pushed a pace rarely seen for a surprisingly long time.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen his fight with Nogueira, and he was gassed as fuck. Also, it wasn’t 30 minutes. Now if it’s pace you’re talking about, I’ll agree with you, Shogun has it. That’s not the same as cardio though.
by FRANKIE on May 26, 2009 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol at Shogun beating Machida.
Just not gonna happen unless they bring in soccer kicks and Machida happens to slip and stun himself on the canvas.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on May 25, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don’t need to defend your opinion, it just sets you up to be attacked. Shogun is only what 27? And still recovering from 2 major knee surgeries? We’ll see what happens when he’s 100% and can trust the knee he blew-out twice in like a 9 month period.
by CliChe Guevara on May 25, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah I know
there is just too many shogun doubters nowadays. It’s unbelivable that instead of getting respect for fighting with one leg he’s getting doubters. But it’s all good, he’s back in shape and will make great fights soon enough.
by orcus on May 25, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even at 100%, Shogun probably won’t get out of the first round with Machida. Mainly because his aggressive striking technique is perfect for Machida to counter against.
re: orcus – Sorry, you did say maybe, but I have real troubles seeing Shogun winning. I love Shogun too, but he’s lacking the technical ability; just fodder for Machida.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on May 25, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the thing is
shogun is an aggressive striker, but he’s very smart and I guarantee he would not try to hang with machida in striking. He’s faced better strikers than himself before and wanted nothing to do with their striking game, examples of the top of my head is his second bout with alistair and his bout with diabate. he’d try to take the fight to the ground and work on submissions. shoguns bjj is better than machida’s, the only problem really is taking machida to the ground and keep him there. we have the same problem with the spider.
by orcus on May 25, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
shogun has one career submission. I haven’t seen a great deal of machida bjj, maybe you have. Without seeing much of him on the ground it is difficult to say shogun’s bjj is better isn’t it?
by crinow on May 25, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, shogun started bjj before he started training muy thai, when he was a little kid. got his black belt from antonio schembri (who is now the bjj instructor for black house). Lyoto started training bjj in his late teens. Shogun has won various bjj tournaments, while lyoto only trains bjj for mma. There is a fine difference between bjj practitioners such as maia, nog and shogun and bjj practitioners such as anderson silva, lyoto, and many others. Having one submission on his resume just goes to show that shogun likes to keep his fights standing, but has no problem taking it to the mat when he is being beaten in the stand up. Anyways, it’s just my opinion that shogun’s bjj is light years ahead of lyoto’s.
by orcus on May 25, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tournament bjj is different than mma bjj. It’s probably a toss up on the ground. taking Lyoto down is a problem all in itself. I see the logic behind your opinion though.
by crinow on May 25, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t sleep on Machida’s BJJ and general ground competence.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 25, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I strongly disagree with having Shogun in the same sentence as Maia and Nog. Seriously. Shogun has a ground game, but it’s more on the level of Anderson and Machida then Nog and Maia. There’s a reason why Shogun goes to the ground as a last resort. When Maia and Nog takes it to the ground, it’s over in minutes.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
and the fight is not over once nog takes it to the ground, but his bjj is still on another level. shogun’s bjj is superior than machida’s IMHO.
by orcus on May 26, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you base that on btw?
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 26, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I base it by the following criterias:
*number of years training bjj with gi and without
*bjj under which teacher
*number of bjj tournaments each competed at and how many of those each won.
by orcus on May 26, 2009 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He only has 1 career submission because while his submission game is good, his ground’n’pound is VICIOUS. Most guys that end up on the ground with Shogun get pounded unconscious. See diving punch KO of Overeem in fight 2
by MuayThaiHasaBeltsystem on May 25, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your article. Patience is the key, slowly push forward, and then time his kicks and take him down. Then ground and pound and wrestle around with him. It’s not going to happen anytime soon though.
by dedstrk316 on May 25, 2009 6:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Measured aggression is what I’m thinking, and the more I hear Shogun – and all the arguments favoring and dismissing him as a potential foil – the less chance I give him. Machida exercises an extremely disciplined approach. I believe whomever knocks him off will have to exercise a ton of discipline as well. Plus, they’ll have to be capable of absorbing a decent amount of damage. Obviously, that doesn’t conflict with what’s been said. But if I were going to boil it down to just a couple of attributes, I’d list those – discipline when attacking and durability – on top of just being a well-rounded, elite mixed martial artist.
by Cannon Jacques on May 25, 2009 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ground and Pound 101
I think the way to beat Machida is take him down and hold him down. His strength is elusiveness on his feet—the way to counteract this is to take him down so he can’t move away from you. Might not be exciting, but it’s the best way to win against him, IMHO.
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
by thetakeover on May 25, 2009 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
100% agreed.
Lessons learned by Machida’s last few fights:
1) Chasing him around the ring trying to outstrike Machida is futile – Sokoudjou.
2) On the ground, you could be submitted – Sokoudjou.
3) If you try shots from the outside, chances are you get taken down instead. – Tito.
4) If you push forward recklessly, you’ll probably be KO’d. – Silva.
5) If you sit back and wait for him to make the first move, you’ll probably be KO’d. – Rashad.
However:
1) If you can grab hold of him and clinch, dirty boxing could be effective since it forces him to into a corner and takes away his angles. – Tito
2) If you push him hard enough, his cardio is suspect and he can get a) slow. b) sloppy. – Tito.
IMO, it’s interesting how Tito’s fight exposed the most regarding the cracks in Machida’s formidable armor. I can’t stand Tito, but his triangle attempt in the third round is still one of the most exciting moments for me in the last couple of years.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on May 25, 2009 7:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You forgot point 3) Do crazy shit nobody would expect from you.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 25, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Machida loses a fight until he loses interest, speed, and/or reflexes; but I think those 3 attributes point to Jon Jones. Should Jones continue the path he’s on, he might be able to peak when Machida either gets bored or is approaching his decline.
by CliChe Guevara on May 25, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This tiny loop pretty much puts the fight in a nutshell. In that short span, there’s about 30 things Lyoto does properly, and about 300 Evans does wrong.
Machida’s entire style is based on movement. The Shotokan background, his stance and hand positioning allow him to key on a guy’s first move, and attempt to cut him off. His lynchpin of his entire offense is that single diagonal punch, which he can throw lead or power hand, from either stance, as he goes across his body toward his opponent’s lead hand, to initiate the clinch. The short punch isn’t a massive power shot, but it catches an opponent off balance before they land, and normally lets him move straight to double unders, or forces an opponent to take a step back and alter their stance.
Yet, despite the fact this single move is Machida’s bread and butter, Evans first crowhops toward Machida, then picks his left foot up off the groudn even after he lands. His left hand, even though Machida parries it, isn’t even making a fist. He’s essentially wasting an entire sequence of obvious body movements to attempt to set up a power punch, which is furthest away from Lyoto. This is like playing in the NFL, knowing a team is going to rush seven, and running a triple flea flicker.
On top of that, look at the brutal disparity in footwork. As I pointed out, Evans crowhops, then takes his left foot off the ground for no reason. When Lyoto lands his left, Evans is standing on nothing but the toes on his right foot. Meanwhile, Machida has an incredibly wide stance and is throwing a punch moving across his body, away from his back leg, yet the ball of his left foot stays on the floor.
These empty generalities of “make him strike first” are just going to keep getting guys merc’d if they aren’t watching tape and figuring out ways to take specific offensive tactics away from Lyoto.
by Jordan Breen on May 25, 2009 7:46 PM EDT reply actions 16 recs
I agree in general you need to closely study his movements in advance. But still, you can’t fight a reactive fight against Machida. You are not going to figure out the style that took him all these years to perfect in a 3 month fight camp. You have to beat him with your game, not try to beat him at his.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You absolutely need to fight a reactive fight against him, because apart from safe, staple offense, like leg kicks and jabs — which more guys should be trying, rather than standing there, moving purposelessly and just letting Lyoto zero in on them — you’re probably going to catch that diagonal punch in the face.
The only way you’re going to land clean on him on the feet if you counter him trying to counter you. Feint him, instead of him feinting you, and try to take away that diagonal punch. He always moves across to the lead hand, so trying to counter with a check hook is far more effective than any of the foolishness guys have tried thus far.
Frankly though, at this point, guys are just going to be better trying to go for Arona-style no-nonsense bulldozer takedowns. Evans, despite hand speed, clean punching and upper body movement, got absolutely torn for horrible footwork and unnecessary bobbing. With Machida only tightening his striking style and favorite attacks each time out, it’s unlikely anyone is going to be able to do enough to best him there.
by Jordan Breen on May 25, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
See, I’m not seeing this, I don’t buy there’s no way to hit Lyoto offensively. That is coming too close to martial arts myths. Of course there’s a way, nobody’s found it yet. Nakamura did land on him for example in close range.
Maybe it will take someone who can mix takedowns and standup to keep lyoto off balance. But I really think the key is to circle away from the diagonal left and attack his body. You gotta do something to slow him down, and his moderately questionable gas tank can be exploited if you try to beat him up on the inside.
I just don’t see anyone successfully trying to counter him. You can wait for it and hope to pull it off, but in the process you’re probably going to get torn apart. Rampage can wait all fight for the hook to present itself but it probably never will. He has to go to the body and try to create scrambles.
The one punch that appears open against Machida is the overhand right. He comes in low with the left hand, but again it will take impeccable timing.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure how an overhand right works. If you get into an exchange with him, and he’s firing, and it’s like a Liddell-Belfort cloud of dust, maybe. I did think Lyoto was a little reckless when trying to clobber Rashad and was wondering if deus ex was coming. But at distance? I just don’t see how that’s your money punch.
I guess if you had some kind of crab defense, with your lead arm across the other side of your chin you could maybe block off the diagonal punch and overhand over it, , but a stance like that would be extremely easy to jab against (as it is in boxing) and would probably get the other side of your face kicked off against Lyoto.
It’s not that I don’t think there’s any way to hit him. The problem is that thus far, anyone who has hit him recently has basically done it in winging punching exchanges — inside or outside — which is a failing proposition. If your success is predicated on forcing him to open up to that level, it means you’re going to have to get your head beat in to have him become more defensively lax, which I’m not sure is a great strategy.
There’s a finite amount of punches in the universe, and they can all ice a man, but making those punches efficient and probable for you is another thing. There’s a way to beat any human being — on the feet or on the mat . I just don’t see it happening to Lyoto right now because he’s out there capitalizing on the shortcomings of guys instantaneously — it took him a blink to realize that Ortiz completely shielded his head and face with a high guard, or that Silva didn’t bring his hands back to his face — and his contemporaries don’t seem like they can be assed to put on tape and think beyond these abstractions of “karate style” and “angles”.
by Jordan Breen on May 25, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As a quick response, I don’t see anyone landing any punches to the head from the outside. People need to find a way inside, preferably by going to the body.
Honestly, from what I heard about one of his opponents who shall not be named, they brought in “karate guys” who were Kyokushin fighters. That’s the level of prep that’s going on, and you’re right, his opponents are being too lazy about how to fight him.
I was wondering—if you could extrapolate GSP and his dominance to 205 division, how would he fight Machida? I assume the answer would be just bulldozer takedowns like you said.
Now, here’s a question…is Lyoto the best Shotokan karate fighter on earth? My guess is no, I think he’s been defeated in Karate. What are the odds Rampage’s team goes out and does research and brings in elite guys just for the purpose of sparring and getting a little more used to it? My guess is close to nil.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think getting some legit grown Shotokan guys would be a help. Even if they don’t know MMA, the idea of landing a single sharp strike and the experience they have with it is good enough to replicate at least a lot of the timing and keying on movement that Lyoto brings.
I think even if guys just start really watching tape and trying to break him down that it’s an improvement. He’s got a repertoire of moves that his offense revolves around, and I think if guys start trying to diagnose that stuff, they’ll be better off for it than just relying on these uninstructive, flighty concepts like “Oh, we’re going to make him strike first.”
by Jordan Breen on May 25, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think more than anything you are going to need someone with outstanding quickness, like Mike Tyson level quickness with their striking.
by ufc4 on May 25, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very cool conversation between you two. Everyone of those posts could be green.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 25, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a lot of talk here that seems designed to impress rather than inform. What happened throughout the fight is simpler then we are being led to believe. Machida timed Rashad’s lazy jab and Rashad never doubled the jab. The “diagonol” punch on display here? It’s a cross, a left straight. It’s not esoteric.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 26, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
to add on-wouldn’t an even better strategy be to bring in the best Shotokan karate fighter to spar with and………Tito Ortiz.
If I were Rampage I would bring Tito on as a special consultant for my camp. I’m sure Tito knows how to beat Machida, he just didn’t have the hand or foot speed to execute it.
While not having the speed of Evans, Rampage has better speed and movement than Tito. His wrestling is at least equal to Tito’s, although I don’t see him pulling off any triangles from the bottom.
I’m really hoping Rampage does all the right things to prepare for Machida. I don’t want to see him lose because he failed to prepare himself properly.
by traydawg on May 26, 2009 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tito doesn’t know shit about beating Machida.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 26, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course he does. Do not assume that because he lost to him he can’t help Rampage beat him. I think Tito had a good gameplan but the speed difference was too great. His gameplan was light years ahead of Evans……….
by traydawg on May 26, 2009 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and what was Tito’s mythical gameplan you speak of?
by soadtrails on May 26, 2009 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get your ass kicked for 14 minutes then hope to catch him in a triangle with 30 seconds left.
by ufc4 on May 26, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was almost crazy enough to work.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 27, 2009 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sort of a side note to this conversation, but what is it about the jab that MMA fighters don’t seem to get? There are a few out there that use it effectively, but only a few.
by FRANKIE on May 26, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that should be green
excellent stuff
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 25, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
In Rashads defense, he could very well have been expecting Machida to throw that straight left. The ‘crowhop’ could have been to bait the left which he was trying to parry away with his left hand to then follow up with a heavy right of his own. Unfortunately for Rashad, from that gif, it appears that Machida pulled his parry away which resulted in the opening for Machida’s straight left that signalled the beginning of the end.
by GeeDub on May 25, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s maybe the best case scenario, and that’s still pretty bad.
Stand up in whatever stance you prefer right now. Take your lead arm, and put it at about 45-60 degrees across your body, and try to make a parrying motion. Now, at basically the same time, try to throw a hook with your power hand. You’ll end up punching like an idiot. If the goal was to parry the diagonal punch — which I’m all for — feint so he throws, parry with your power hand, and try to throw he lead hook.
Hell, that’s an issue unto itself, where even when you’re parrying Machida, the best option is still your lead hand.
by Jordan Breen on May 25, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His left hand, even though Machida parries it, isn’t even making a fist. He’s essentially wasting an entire sequence of obvious body movements to attempt to set up a power punch, which is furthest away from Lyoto. This is like playing in the NFL, knowing a team is going to rush seven, and running a triple flea flicker.
Yeah, the left hand is a “look at this!” to raise Lyoto’s eyes and chin and follow with a right hand to the chin. It’s schoolyard technique and isn’t going to beat Machida.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 25, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seriously owe you a beer for all I’ve learned from you. If you ever make it out to central Missouri, I’ve got a Sapporo with your name on it.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 25, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Central Missouri huh? You going to St. Louis in a couple weeks for Strikeforce? I’ll be there.
by ufc4 on May 25, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll see you there, sir.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 25, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really, really, really great analysis. Not to get too complementary but, Jordan, your meticulous approach to breaking down MMA and your ability to intelligently articulate yourself are unparalleled. Now, if you could just jump from that sinking ship that is Sherdog and join Bloody Elbow, the consolidation of all the intelligent MMA analysis will be complete (thanks to the recent addition of Leland). I’m not sure how much they’re paying you over there but it’s time for BE’s to make it’s big power play. If not, I’m afraid Fightlinker will end up using all of their newly acquired “membership” cash to snatch you up (and possibly obtain a Lifetime Merchandising Rights Agreement).
Great original post and subsequent analysis too Michael.
(formerly TheFightJournal)
by Lucas2 on May 26, 2009 3:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Breen, I like how you used BE as a sounding board for your ideas in the “Charlatanry” article on Sherdog.
by Flying Gogoplata on May 26, 2009 4:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no silver bullet. Whoever beats him will need an excellent chin, good defense, patience, cardio, good wrestling, good balance, good clinch skills, and the ability to do significant damage on the inside.
Kinda sounds like Randy. :)
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on May 25, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right, except for the chin, which would probably be his undoing. But, you never know.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randy lost to Chuck twice. What makes people think Machida would be worried?
by toxic on May 25, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He also beat Chuck once. The point is, if you’re going to get into this MMA math stuff from the past it’s pointless. It always assumes nobody learns anything from past losses. It’s not that Machida should be worried, just that hes going to do a lot better than people like Shogun and Forrest, who have nothing to offer.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not the good logic, you should know it already.
by spectaa on May 25, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anything Chuck can do, Machida can do better.
I know that isn’t anywhere near the level of great analysis going on this thread, but I don’t think its out of bounds to suggest that a guy with a vulnerability to hard-to-take down counterpunchers would have a major problem with a hyper elusive hard-to-take-down counterpuncher. At 46.
by toxic on May 25, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For sure. Especially since he’s already been KO’d before and he’s getting older. The ability to take shots isn’t something you can get back.
I love me some Sexyama!
by pud333 on May 26, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn’t have the speed to deal with Lyoto.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 26, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
kinda sounds like Rampage, minus an item or two(you pick)
Funny how I can’t see Rampage beating Machida, however, he possesses most of those qualities. I wonder what will happen if Rampage can land a power shot on Machida, however unlikely that may be.
by traydawg on May 26, 2009 4:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s Dan Henderson. And even then, Henderson’s downfall will be the fact that he tends to start swinging for the knockout.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
by FlyByKnight on May 25, 2009 8:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
hendo doesn't start swinging for the knockout
that’s the only thing he does
by yngjzy on May 25, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Machida will stay undefeated for quite a while. The perfect style match-up to beat him is currently Sengoku’s most popular fighter. Powerful and very technical takedowns… Excellent top control… a great sense of striking distance for such a noob… Awesome athleticism and conditioning… and a powerful and lightning fast shot and vicious G’n’P to keep Machida from working submissions from the bottom. He needs more experience but the set of tools is perfect to take him out. When the King comes to America… Machida will fall. (Or at least get taken down and ridden to a decision loss)
by MuayThaiHasaBeltsystem on May 25, 2009 9:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, people talk about Jon Jones in X years, but I’d really like to see King Mo after he develops. Especially after listening to him wax philosophical about combat sports with Jordan on his show.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 26, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think King Mo was also a big Machida fan before it became cool.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 26, 2009 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe, but......
I don’t think Wesley Snipes has the same reflexes he did when he was younger.
by ufc4 on May 26, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think it's pretty simple.
lyoto was in rashad’s head.
oh, yeah. *loath. you are loath to criticize greg jackson’s strategy…“loathe” is a verb.
-grammar nazi out.
by dr. ransom on May 25, 2009 9:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lyoto is unorthodox
in that he uses karate – but that also means he uses a karate stance. Everyone on this page is talking about strikes when they should be thinking kicks. Youre never going to hit a guy in the face or hard to the body when he leans back and is that quick. The loopy hooks that UFC fighters have been using wont work, I dont care how fast you are.
Most UFC fighters square up to an opponent to prevent take downs and protect their legs. This has resulted in less good kicks like you see in kickboxing fights. (now great kick boxers are listed as boxers in the UFC game since they stopped kicking). Lyoto puts his front leg out there. Look at the gif a few posts above. Why throw a hook to the head when you can kick to the thigh?
I understand, a karate guy will lift his leg to take that kick, but that puts his weight on his back foot. In that position, with his weight back, he can be hit.
If he leaves the leg out there, mess it up and destroy his mobility, or make him shift his weight back. He can lean so far back because he has his front leg as a counter weight.
Also, hanging that leg is a great opportunity to do some take downs.
I think thats the only way to catch this guy. If he is that far out of your reach, he needs to having something on the other side of his center of gravity. That would be his right leg.
by ryanwk628 on May 25, 2009 9:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
also, a boxing trick
step on his foot, he cant go anywhere.
by ryanwk628 on May 25, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
look at the start
When Rashad did that hop step, had he done it towards Lyoto’s foot, he could have stepped towards his toe. Not stomped it, but enough to hold it. Then when Lyoto moves his leg out to keep his balance, he wouldnt be able to.
If you control someones foot work, you can control the guy.
by ryanwk628 on May 25, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lyoto has many, many tools to defend kicks. I expect a lot of guys to end up on their backs if they try to kick with Lyoto.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on May 26, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
who has tried it? Im not saying use them to do damage, but rather to control distance and keep Lyoto off balance much like a long armed boxer does with a good jab. Watching that fight, Lyoto was working distance with his jab, but a kick will out reach a jab any day.
by ryanwk628 on May 26, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is cardio Machida's weakness?
Is it just me or was he beginning to tire in Round 2?
I wonder if his perfect technique begins to break down in Rounds 4 and 5 and whether his speed begins to slow…
by klown on May 25, 2009 10:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he has bad cardio. I just think his style is VERY cardio intensive.
by Michael Rome on May 25, 2009 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Constant feinting plus focusing more on explosive movements.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 25, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m going to be the Forrest Griffin asshole. Watch Forrest Vs. Rashad again and think to yourself a little bit about constant measured aggresstion. Fucking glass jaw though, so he’d end up losing.
by William Dickinson on May 25, 2009 10:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
that’s the issue. I don’t think Forrest would be a bad matchup…but his chin. Not to mention that he keeps publicly saying he has no interest in fighting Machida (although I think that has to go out the window now that Lyoto is champ…you can’t say you don’t want to fight the champ)
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 25, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can’t say you don’t want to fight the champ
Keith Jardine did, although the idea that one win coming off his loss to Wandy would get him a title shot was patently absurd to begin with. Whoever began that talk was obviously a bit off in the head.
by ufc4 on May 25, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well..
not wanting to fight your friend who is champ is different than just “not wanting to fight a champ because he’s a bad matchup”
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 25, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe it's just me
But I don’t care if my mom was the champ, if I get a title shot we’re fighting.
by ufc4 on May 26, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn’t have a title shot in hand. Of course he is going to deny until the moment of truth.
by bigweeze on May 26, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glass jaw and pillow fists. Not the best combination for fighting Machida.
by FRANKIE on May 26, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before lobbying for a rematch with Machida Greg Jackson should teach Rashad the proper strategy and techniques when he gets hurt… especially with the new chin Lyoto just gave him.
Trash Talking wont cut it…. at worst drop to gaurd in the hopes that you may recover – want to try something advanced go for a clinch, grab a leg, run away, etc…
IF Randy was in his prime, with his current boxing skill and he had hendersons chin who would pose the greatest threat to Lyoto.
Randy creating the “clinch and pound” and is a dog going after the takedown… with good enough boxing to help set it up. He’d still be the underdog but he’d have the best chance.
Fighting Machida… your entire strategy needs to be predicated around getting him on his back… Its still not a guaranteed win but this is where he is least dangerous. second least dangerous spot is in the clinch.
Couple this with the fact that you have to five rounds with him now doesnt bode well for the lay and pray strategy. He’s good enough on his back and in the clinch where he’d be extremely hard to finish so winning 5 rounds with strategy is almost as difficult as trying to figure out how to beat him on his feet.
Before his last 2 fights you could conceivably come up with a strategy where you could take a few shots to hopefully land one… that’s now out the window with his new found power.
by mmalogic on May 25, 2009 11:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The best counter to Karate is Sambo
Dana, please sign fedor and have Machida move to HW to make this fight happen.
by Bandaka on May 26, 2009 12:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The technical discussion here has been awesome, but I don’t think any of you have gotten to the root of the problem, which is his focus. When I saw the countdown of him meditating and getting to the place of ‘no-thought’ and empty mind, I knew that he’d be extremely difficult to beat. The brain actually reacts quicker when the mind is perfectly clear, and things move in slow motion. I’ve periods when i was heavily into meditation and things just are different. You’re 100% in the moment and there’s no lag time between thought and action, or thought and reaction. For anyone to match his speed and reaction, they’re going to have to find the same place or simply suffer the fate of watching the guy beat you before you can react. When you’re mind is clear, your body knows what to do.
I know that most fighters have this to an extent, but Lyoto has obviously mastered it.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 3:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
groan. I should re-read my work better.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As the genius Tim Sylvia once said:
“MMA is 90% half mental”.
by mmalogic on May 26, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned a few months ago that, aside from spider, GSP is the most dangerous opponent to Machida. Ironic considering he fights two weightclasses below him. But GSP’s speed makes up for it. He’s never not been able to get someone down, and his game plan seems almost as impregnable as Machida’s.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 3:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
SInce Lyoto will probably not fight Anderson – Fedor will be Machida’s biggest threat.
Both guys rarely get hit and both guys rarely lose rounds.
by mmalogic on May 26, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think with Machida you can say: take them down, hold them, pound them will be my way to win. Cause if you do that, he knows what you will do next, and he will make you pay for it with a kick to the face every time GSP shot (or something). The guy who beats him will have to be able to threaten him on multiple levels.
by toxic on May 26, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck finding a guy who can do that…
We dont go to war with the army we wish we had we go to war with the army we actually have.
by mmalogic on May 26, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’m a big GSP mark, but I think his skills nullify a lot of the skills which many fighters rely on. Obviously, we don’t know how he would look a weight class or two above where he fights, but his wrestling, guard passing ability, and the damage he’s able to inflict while on top makes him a tough fight for anyone who is close to his size. GSP/Machida sounds like a damn interesting fight, provided that GSP’s game isn’t hurt with extra weight. He needs some fights above the welterweight division before I would be comfortable with him against Machida. By the way, I believe he can get in close on Machida without getting his head knocked off.
by Cannon Jacques on May 26, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
GSP has proven that he’s no dolt dude. Obviously he knows that Machida is going to try and kick his head into outer space when he shoots, so he’s not going to just run in there and just shoot and shoot and shoot until he finally gets his face wasted. Give the man some credit. What GSP brings to the table though is an athletic ability and speed that I don’t think Machida has faced yet.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By “the strategy he designed for Rashad Evans”, did you mean the one where he stands there and gets punched and kicked in the face until he finally gets rocked? :)
by P4P is a stupid concept on May 26, 2009 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s pretty obvious that Jackson wanted to establish a bit of stand-up before he took Machida down by his interview. Poor Rashad didn’t get passed step one.
by Dooda on May 26, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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