Sean Sherk Speaks out About Current Lightweight Rankings
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 9:22 AM EDT
Email
Print
Steve Cofield caught up with Sean Sherk this past week, and one of the topics of discussion was regarding Sherk's major drop in rankings due to his loss to B.J. Penn. Cofield points out in his article that Sean Sherk is currently ranked #4 in our USAToday/BloodyElbow.com Lightweight Consensus rankings for April.
Interestingly enough, Cofield also mentions the fact that MMAWeekly doesn't even have Sherk in their top 10 and two other sources have him at #8. To be perfectly honest, anything below top 5 for Sherk is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
Regardless of my opinion, Sherk had this to say:
"There are guys ranked above me, that I've seen, that I know damn well I can beat. Rankings don't mean squat. (Shinya) Aoki is a good example. He's a big 155 pounder but he's got no boxing, no wrestling. Where does that leave you in the UFC? You can't wear pants, so guess what? You're in some trouble. I'd like to see a lot of those guys come here and I think eventually they will."
Sherk hits at the constant debate among fans when it comes to the Lightweight rankings. Should Aoki be that far up the ladder considering the multiple factors into why he's ranked so high? Should pants be an issue? Why is Florian above Sherk?
I think when it comes down to rankings, we have to put these guys where they rank according to their promotion's rule set. If Japan allows pants, cry me a river. It's a ranking after all. But even in that context, I still don't think Aoki is a top 3 guy currently. Sherk has a small case there. Florian ranked at #3 isn't a huge stretch considering he defeated Thomas, Lauzon, Huerta, and Stevenson, but if we look back at where those guys are at right now, was it truly that impressive?
Sherk did, after all, turn around and slug out a decision win over the always tough Tyson Griffin. I feel like Florian's rank correlates to where he stands in the divisional picture, and as we all know, the UFC doesn't care about divisonal rankings. Should Leites have been #2 ranked because he was in line for a title shot? No. Sherk might have a case there.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
113 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
The right answer for a guy like Sherk is
where does the UFC see him?
Rankings, as much drama as they create, don’t mean shit. He should focus on his performance and let that speak for him. He is a great fighter, but seems far to concerned with these periphery issues that he has no control over. Focus on not getting KO’s by Hawaiian knees and this will be fine.
by Razreshat on May 21, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
The unfortunate thing
Is winning probably won’t do him any favors in rankings.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to sympathize with Sherk
There’s been a consistent inflation of the Japanese promotions in the rankings for years now. This is largely because the UFC didn’t have a lightweight division at all for a couple of years.
Its also due to the fact that there has been less cross-pollination of the Japanese promotions and the UFC than in other divisions.
The UFC didn’t sign any of the major lightweights from PRIDE. I believe Marcus Aurelio was the only one they got and he was kind of the Matt Serra of the PRIDE after his win over Gomi.
Until we see some serious cross-pollination we just won’t know where these pools of fighters stand against each other.
BJ Penn’s defeat of Gomi is six years old and both fighters have changed a great deal since then. Changed and changed again in fact.
Aoki obviously would have issues in the UFC as would Kitaoka due to the magic grappling pants (legalize them!).
Rankings are inherently flawed — they remind me of what Winston Churchill said about government — “democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others”.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Lemme ask this… why the hell does MMAWeekly have Sherk out of the top 10?
Is it because of his steroid suspension? That’s a huge flaw in my opinion.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
personally I think they have a notable
anti-UFC pro-Japan bias and its really lingering in the lightweights.
They had Gomi at #1 or #2 way way way longer than any sane person should have.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Nate Wilcox on May 21, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Same with Kang...
at MW. He was in the top 5 longer than he had any reason.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2009 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah that was ridiculous
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Mousasi will be the new Kang – he’ll never fight at 185 again but he’ll slowly trickle down the 185 rankings.
by Derek Suboticki on May 21, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
They had Sherk ranked then he got caught for steroids and was removed. Also why should guys who recently come to a weight class jump those fighting there for years and have been defeating ranked opponents? Rankings are based on accomplishments at that weight. When he beat Kenny, he was nobody. The Franca fight was a good win but has a star next to it, loses to BJ and beat Tyson in a close fight. How does that warrant outrage over his rank? You don’t rank on who you think would win in a fight.
Kitaoka had defeated several good fighters at 1700 including Daley, Pellegrino, Condit, Hasegawa then drops to LW and wins the Sengoku tourney defeating notable names as Mitsuoka and Gomi (who was ranked). Where is everyone getting upset he isn’t near top5?
It’s all biased yet no one complains when they like it though. Gomi was number 1 loses to Diaz wins two straight including against Bang Ludwig, who is a very credible opponent, then loses two and is no longer ranked. Whereas Chuck and Wand are/were still ranked after losing several fights. Same with Serra who only recently was taken off and Hughes is still ranked when hasn’t won a fight in 2 years.
This is what I am arguing. Why is there this whole leapfrogging schema in every ranking? It seems like it’s in there to make it “easy” for people to do these rankings.
My only problem is that Sherk isn’t ranked. I still think he’s 2-3 range. Yeah, the Franca win has an asterik, but once you’re in the arena of the top 10, I don’t think he drops like a rock outta the top ten for losing to BJ. Close fight with Griffin, but it’s a win.
I think Kitaoka should be in the 7-10 range, but in terms of rankings, Mitsuoka and Gomi are solid wins but not huge ones to warrant anything higher. I think he’s in an accurate ranking for the most part.
You’re right about Chuck and Wand, but that’s the whole bias/marketing crap that people buy into their rankings. It shouldn’t be considered in those rankings at all.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I think Sherk is def. top 10 it just annoys me to see people causing an uproar because he’s not higher.
As for MMA Weekly they didn’t remove him after the BJ loss but after the steroid thing. They added Joe Stevenson then if I remember correctly. I;m sure if he defeats Edgar he’ll be put back on.
I am sick of all this talk about magic pants. I really doubt that Aoki’s success can be fully attributd to some spandex.
Increases Ground Offense by 10%
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Does it also decrease your chin, boxing, and wrestling by 75%?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 21, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you go train at the right camps… ;)
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA weekly’s rankings are insane.
Losing a tough fight to BJ Penn = goodbye to top 10 ranking
Getting embarrassed by Aoki = #2 – above BJ
Getting embarrassed by Fedor = #4
Yeah, looking over their criteria, they aren’t even leapfrogging. They are simply dropping some of these guys huge spots. I’m a bit dumbfounded at this. What is their criteria? I suppose that’d give me a better idea.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Their criteria is ‘who is the best non UFC fighter, and how high can we raise him before it’s just silly’?
by Derek Suboticki on May 21, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I’m more curious as to why Sherk is off the list completely. I’m assuming they have some sort of criteria dropping anyone who tested positive or something, which is absurd.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Very
Especially given the controversy surrounding the circumstances, which many people don’t go to the trouble of educating themselves about.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It's also harder
to imagine a criteria that isn’t more in favor of fighters that don’t get tested by anyone.
by Derek Suboticki on May 21, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I completly agree with sherk
no way shinya aoki should be ranked above him
The secret dream of most people who make rankings is to influence matchmaking. Everybody decided that they wanted to see Kenny fight BJ, thus he shot up in the rankings.
I think its the other way around
the matchmakers are the dog, the rankers are the tail.
I’ve noticed and documented repeated trends of fighters rising AFTER title shots are announced. Patrick Cote and Thales Leites for example. Barnett and Arlovski both rose after they signed with Affliction and went into the Fedor pool.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Nate Wilcox on May 21, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, which is complete bullshit.
A guy shouldn’t rise in rank because a matchmaker decided this or that fight would be more exciting. Any site that does that is suspect to being completely discounted in credibility in my mind.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
find me a site that doesn't do it
and i’ll show you a site with computer generated rankings.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Nate Wilcox on May 21, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, that’s a major problem in my mind.
And computer generated rankings… they still use the leapfrog method as does everyone else. I still think that’s a flaw. If you’re ranked 29th and somehow knock off the #5 ranked fighter in the world, are you truly now the #5 ranked fighter in terms of skill, etc.
No, but that’s how it all works. I still think it should go along with the volatility rules like ELO systems do, but not a straight ELO system. Higher ranked fighter goes down in ranked in the context of how low was the guy they fought and other criteria while the lower guy gets a big boost depending on where the guy he beat was ranked. If they are close enough, Fighter B will overtake Fighter A. If not, they’ll be closer to each other.
But that’s my opinion.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I think FightMatrix
has a pretty similar system to what you describe.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Nate Wilcox on May 21, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe FM leapfrogs. And it’s still a very objective system due to more weight on title fights, etc.
Yeah, it works a bit like that in terms of volatility because it is an advanced ELO base, but it has it’s quirks and subjective bias in the programming. All systems will. I still think leapfrogging is bullshit, but whatever.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Sherk is definitely Top 10...
Top 5 though….
Penn
Florian
Alvarez
Sanchez
ehh…
Yeah, I would have to say he is… lol. I’m sorry, but I just don’t see Aoki doing anything really productive against anyone in the UFC…. I bet him vs Nate Diaz would be a good matchup.
I think that Hellboy will pull off the win against Aoki at DREAM 10 (I think its DREAM 10 that they are fighting)
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
Except you’re throwing Sanchez in there for what reason? Because of what he did at an entirely different weight class? I think Sanchez has to prove it first before being ranked that high.
I also believe Alvarez should drop a bit. He’s got a lot of fights going on, but Bellator isn’t throwing him tough competition, at least not in line with what he handled in Japan.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Is Sanchez supposed to start at the bottom of a new division?
Its all a matter of perspective really.
Creator of the FightMatrix rating system.
Is Sanchez supposed to start at the bottom of a new division?
Yeah, because that’s exactly what I just said. He beats Joe Stevenson and he’s now #4. Give me a break.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that quite works
Fighters are going to bring some of their old resume into a new weight class for the very real reason that they’re likely to get big bookings and go on to win major fights.
the reality is that when a top 10 welterweight who’s a major star like Diego moves to lightweight he’s going to make waves right away.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Nate Wilcox on May 21, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve already stated this below.
If an already respectable fighter moves to a weight class, I think subjectivity is a means to at least start him out at a ranking, but it should never be within the top 5 until he truly proves he can hang with a top 5 opponent in that division.
If a fighter is new to the UFC or another top promotion, I think he has to work his way up via the standard manner of taking on tougher competition through the ranks.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly
I think where Sanchez currently is is a good rank. He could probably be #7 and I wouldn’t have a problem. 7-10 range is what I think he’s worth currently.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That I can agree with. Honestly, we don’t know a whole lot about Hansen, Alvarez or Aoki until they fight outside of that little triangle.
by Derek Suboticki on May 21, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
no problem with that
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
Guess I think very highly of Diego Sanchez in the LW division…. I, in my own opinion, can’t really put many ahead of him now that he is in the LW division.
I’m ready to see Sanchez vs Sherk.
Alvarez isn’t going to be facing elite competition in my mind until he gets in the UFC, but I also still have a lot to learn about the other LW’s in the world. I have seen Aoki fights and I just don’t see him as the “Elite” of LW’s.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Sanchez is up there in terms of skill, but in terms of his actual wins, not yet. Will he be up there? I’m sure he will, but rankings aren’t supposed to be based on their perceived skill at a weight class. It should be based on results, and all these damn ranking sites do it differently. MOST put bias in it and put their own determination as to how skilled a guy is, when they really shouldn’t.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Well my rankings are my own opinion and from what I’ve seen with my own eyes….. I don’t pay any attention to the rankings of any site unless I need a good laugh.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. It isn’t a blasphemous placing, I just think he needs another fight to prove that type of rank.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Understood…. I have a lot to learn about the other organizations still. Outside of Aoki, Hansen, Gomi, and Alvarez…. I don’t know a whole lot about who else is out there. (minus the Strikeforce fighters, I just don’t think any of them belong in the Top Ten)
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with Leland. No way Sanchez ranks 4th after one fight. Buy that logic, Silva should be top 3 LHW if he beats Griffin.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on May 21, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
We’ll see after Sanchez fights Clay Guida and hopefully gets a match with Sherk after that.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
If he keeps on winning, I have no problem ranking Sanchez up there. My argument is that he has to actually do it first.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on May 21, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
And you are absolutely right…. like I said earlier…. as cooky of a cat that Diego Sanchez is, I just think highly of his skills and what he’s done in MMA. Just my opinion and as everyone knows (especially MMA fans when it comes to rankings), opinions are like assholes… everybody’s got them.
I’m just an asshole with a difference in logic.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I think Sanchez can’t just start over at the bottom. There has to generally be a process of thinking about where he should start out, but realistically, he should be outside of the top ten until he proves it. Beating Joe proves it a bit, although not making him a top 5 fighter.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I see what you’re saying…. just curious, who’s in Leland’s Top 5?
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Jesus… I’d have to look at the current ranks I suppose. Lemme take a look.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Current LW rankings via BE Consensus:
1 B.J. Penn 98 UFC 1
2 Shinya Aoki 88 DREAM 2
3 Kenny Florian 86 UFC 3
4 Sean Sherk 83 UFC 4
5 Eddie Alvarez 81 Bellator 5
I’d have to drop Aoki to maybe 5, put Alvarez at 6 only because Aoki beat him convicingly. I’d really put Florian and Sherk on the even if we discount steroid positives for Sherk. Interchangeably at 2 and 3.
Honestly, Aoki, Alvarez, and Hansen are all relatively in the same rank. Hansen would be in that 5, 6, 7 mix that could possibly interchange between all of them.
I also don’t think Satoru Kitaoka warrants a #8 and I’d drop him from top 10 since Gomi has fallen off the horse a bit. JZ should drop some spots. Just because he’s been injured, we shouldn’t feel bad for dropping him in rank. He can always prove it later that he’s still awesome and climb the ladder.
1. BJ Penn
2-3: Florian/Sherk
4-6: Aoki, Alvarez, Hansen
7-10: Kitaoka, JZ, Thomson, Sanchez
Jesus, ya know, the whole top half of the top ten is very tough to even decide on. Most of these guys are screwed by injuries. JZ, Thomson. I’d move JZ down, and give Kitaoka a tad higher raning I suppose until he proves he isn’t that great. Thomson can move up as well.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I put Maynard and maybe Griffin in your 7-10 instead of Kit and possibly Thomson
by Derek Suboticki on May 21, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
There is definitely a case for Maynard, Griffin.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Because Maynard defeated Edgar. I think Edgar is on the outside looking in personally.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If its purely on performance within a particular division, its tough to make a case for BJ Penn as the #1 LW. He only has 1 win over a top 10 LW since he beat Gomi back in ’03 and has a total of 3 wins in the last 4 years. And those other 2 wins, Joe Daddy and Jens Pulver have a combined recent record of 2 wins and 8 losses. And thats the friendly view of BJs record (3-0 in the last 4 years) assuming you ignore his losses at WW.
Compare those results to Aoki who over the last 4 years has wins over French, Sotiropoulos, Hansen, JZ, Uno and Alvarez. And if we take the positive view of Aoki as we did with BJ and ignore Aokis WW loss, Aokis record over the last 4 years is something like 15-1, with the only loss coming to the fresher Hansen in the LW tournament final. Some of those 15 wins were at WW, I know, but I dont think that helps or hurts him really. Or compare BJs record to Florian who has a 9-1 record over the last 4 years with wins over Stout, Mishima, Thomas, Lauzon, Huerta and Stevenson.
The whole “Based purely on performance” ideal falls into a burning heap whenever somebody tries to argue that BJ Penn is the #1 ranked lightweight coz based purely on performance, BJ has no claim whatsoever to that position.
This is so true
Rec’d
BJ Penn is a great fighter. Although he does have wins over Sean Sherk and Joe Daddy – is that really enough to put him at the unparalleled number 1 position?
Is he the best LW fighter in the world. Yeh on his day nobody can beat him. But his ‘record’ isn’t that impressive at LW. Sean Sherk should be No. 2 or No. 3. Nobody can beat him apart from BJ Penn.
Honestly, Silva should be up there if he beats Griffin. Griffin should drop, but Silva might not be #3, but #5 or #4 wouldn’t make me think it was ridiculous.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Then you’re contradicting yourself and ranking on potential/ability rather than record there. If some Junior Dos Santos-type came in and beat Griffin, would you rank him #4 or #5? (Granted Silva already has a win at LHW, but still..)
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on May 21, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not contradicting anything. I’m saying for the situation in which a fighter switches weight classes, a subjective look at his record and the general skill of his opponents could set the bar. Yeah, it’s a contradiction of what I would do once he’s settled into a ranking, but you couldn’t simply put Sanchez at the very bottom. I think that’s a bit stupid because then you’d be basically saying he’s now 0-0.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
rankings aren’t supposed to be based on their perceived skill at a weight class. It should be based on results
From you a couple of posts back. Besides, I never said Sanchez should be on the bottom. I just opposed Gunslinger20’s argument that he should rank #4 after one fight. Which you did as well.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on May 21, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Ugh…
Rankings aren’t supposed to be based on perceived skill. But if I’m switching a guy from one weight class to another, I think you have to give him some sort of subjective analysis as to where to place him. I suppose we wouldn’’t actually have to do that though because the UFC matchmakers will do that for us. So I suppose, I wouldn’t even need to do that.
So, if Joe Silva does it all for us, then yes, my original statement sticks. It should be based on results.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
But if I’m switching a guy from one weight class to another, I think you have to give him some sort of subjective analysis as to where to place him.
I agree and, again, I’m not arguing Sanchez’s record should star over, he’s just not #4 right now in my book and that’s all I’ve been saying form the start.
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on May 21, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank god I never worked for WAMMA….
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I agree he isn’t #4. But Joe Silva actually did us the job of placing him. So he beats Joe Stevenson, so technically, Sanchez should be around top 20, maybe in the #20 range.
Yeah, people would scream about it, but the problem is that they are stanidng around saying his skills are so good, blah blah blah… that’s all subjective.
If he’s truly a top 10 fighter, skillwise, he’ll eventually move up there. Does it really matter WHEN he’s ranked top 10? No. He should move up accordingly. Joe Silva did us the work in giving us a base ranking. He beats Stevenson, rank accordingly. I think that’s how it should work.
The current routine is that he’s ranked by subjective analysis. I get it, and I’m not entirely opposed as long as it isn’t over the top. But I think what I said above should be how it should work.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
If a new fighter came into a weight class or a newer fighter came into the UFC without any type of reputable fights to base his skills on, i.e. Paulo Thiago, I’d have a problem jumping him up over Koscheck with a win, and I do have a problem with that.
But that isn’t a weight class switch. Paulo beats Koscheck, then switches weight classes, yes, I’d look at that win as a fluke and rank him accordingly. But only in the situation of weight class shifts.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Sherk was caught cheating. He’s 1-1 since, getting his ass kicked by BJ Penn and a decision over someone who has not beaten anyone elite. If he scores a strong win over Edgar he belongs back in the picture but until then, yes, his cheating and his performances since he got caught matter.
And here we go....
How appropriate. Sherk got popped once. It says nothing of what he’s done before then, which doesn’t begin to mention the controversy surrounding his suspension. Your record doesn’t start over, nor does your ranking. Be serious..
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
You be serious. He got caught cheating and he has yet to prove he can beat an elite fighter without the juice. End of story.
by andherewego on May 21, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Except you’re looking at rankings subjectively. If you are going to do it that way, okay. Then the whole top 10 would be switched around according to your views on each fighter, and that’s not what they should be.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry. You don’t get to gloss over someone getting caught cheating just because it is inconvenient for your own subjective ratings constructs. Especially when a fighter has been not proven he can beat the elite without the juice.
by andherewego on May 21, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
My own subjective ratings constructs? I’m not talking about subjectivity. I’m talking about an objective ranking. The rankings don’t account for steroid positives, and nor should they. They should account for who you’ve beaten and when. That’s it. That’s all it should account for. Adding in that type of criteria, I suppose you could DROP the guy off the list completely for the extent of his suspension, but he’d probably come right back into the top 10 because that’s really where he is if you take his last few wins as basis.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You’ve made the subjective decision to act as though cheating doesn’t count for anything. No, you do not automatically re-seed a fighter where they were previously ranked as soon as their suspension is up. Their entire body of work is called into question. Especially when they’re not as impressive post-cheating suspension than the were beforehand.
Not as impressive?
You are obviously unqualified to judge what you’re watching. Have you heard of BJ Penn before? He’s 1-1 since getting popped. And his opponent got popped. He’s been tested before and after most every fight of his professional career. If someone gets caught stealing a car, do you naturally assume they’ve been stealing cars for years and that they finally got caught? You’re a character…
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re comparing someone cheating in a competitive athletic environment that is supposed to have a level playing field to car theft, and you’re calling someone else a character? And you’re acting as though steroid suspensions don’t matter, and calling someone else unqualified to judge? Pot, meet kettle.
Definition of character
You’re comparing me to a pot? You take an analogy literally and then use one yourself. Brilliant. It’s easy for people to demonize individuals based on such little information. Glad your hands are so clean. Probably wear white gloves, too.
Maybe you’d be more productive naming guys that can beat Sherk. Because all you’ve managed to do so far is suggest that Tyson Griffin and Sherk are nobodies in the 155 picture. That alone should’ve kept me from engaging you in this volley. But there’s always one of you that comes about carrying a picket that says “sturoidz” and I find it cartoonish.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Steroid positives shouldn’t count, period. Not in the rankings. It has no basis on skill or the wins Sherk has over competition. If you want to make the argument that his past wins are tainted because of steroids, okay. That’s a whole different issue. Then we get into a discussion about whether or not he should be ranked differently because of that, but nobody will probably listen to that argument because there is no way to determine who he fought on roids and not, or if they were all while he was on roids. It’s the same question with the MLB ordeal.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Notice:
He won’t name who he thinks would beat Sherk today. I wish he’d indulge me so I could shoot him down. Before now, have you heard anyone say Sherk isn’t the same fighter since being popped? First time I’ve heard it said, honestly. It’s a curious assessment. Maybe he doesn’t watch the API videos.. or fights.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, my assessment of rankings is that none of that crap should come into play. It’s purely based on performance. I’m not sure how the whole steroid positive comes into play in a ranking based on performance. It really doesn’t.
The argument begins delving into the whole MLB era ordeal with steroids, and that’s something completely different.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Sherk is anything below top five right now, and magic pants or no pants, I don’t think Aoki (as much as I love watching him fight), is as high as he should be. I think he gets KO’d or pounded out by some of the elite UFC lightweights. But then again, no way to find out until they actually fight, right? At any rate, rankings are pretty much B.S., you can say so and so is ranked higher than so and so because they beat so and so, but in the end, I really don’t think it matters if you’re ranked 2 or 3, or 6 or 7. I think the top five are pretty much interchangeable, as are those ranked 6-10. Short of someone like Anderson Silva or GSP being a clear dominating fighter, it doesn’t matter too much IMO.
I love me some Sexyama!
Sherk is my #2 LHW. I’ve said it before, but he’s a stylistic terror for almost anyone at 155. The argument that Diego is #4 at 155 doesn’t necessarily bother me if you’re considering his number of fights in the division; it bothers me because he seems to have lost something from his cut based on his fight with Joe. I would take Sherk over him, no doubt.
I poop rainbows.
I’d love to see Sanchez vs Sherk in a 5 round fight…. I don’t think either one would make more head way than the other in 3 rounds… whoever has the better gas tank would prevail in that match.
Sanchez vs Sherk, UFC needs to make that fight happen.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Sanchez vs. Sherk or the Sherk-Florian rematch are big MUST matchups on my mind.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Even a Sanchez vs Florian rematch would be good...
Both have changed a great deal since the first TUF Finale. Would be an interesting fight.
What the fuck is a "robster craw"?
by Gunslinger20 on May 21, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Really
Any combo of the three would be pretty great right now. There are many interesting match ups at 155 these days.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
YES
You win. Nobody seems to have noticed until now.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 22, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
i don’t think that it matters if diego is ranked #10 or #3, if he looks impressive against guida, he’s getting the next title shot, then sherk. so sanchez holds his destiny in his own hands.
You may be right in terms of marketing.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t agree with that sentiment, especially with (assuming he wins) BJ’s obsession with fighting GSP again. Even if he doesn’t land that, he is unlikely for fight again for many months. With such a delay in defenses, Diego and Sherk will likely fight for the next shot. On the other hand; a Florian victory could see either Sherk of Diego getting a shot pretty quickly. Then again, they could also face one another for that right. I just don’t think Diego is promised a shot by any stretch.
I poop rainbows.
by Charles Awad on May 21, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing gets everybody talking like rankings discussions, except for a Supremacy fanpost.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
ZING
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 21, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Both of those things are about as useful as the other…
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
The poor guy
Isn’t even participating in this discussion….
All divisions are like this…
Take any fighter and get him wins outside of the UFC against other unproven fighters and all of a sudden these idiots rank him top 5 or even top 3.
That’s like taking a mediocre NBA player, placing them in a smaller league and calling him one of the best basketball players because he’s scoring 40 points a game against a bunch of shleps.
Bloggers Rankings are like assholes… everyone’s got one and they all stink.
you're quoting me
and yet limiting it to bloggers.
from what I’ve seen all rankings by anyone meet that criteria, blogger or no blogger.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
The UFC has the toughest division in every weight class…
common sense would tell you that the top 4 or five in every ranking would have to be UFC fighters.
The exception to this would be Fedor because When he reigned UFC did not have the toughest and best divisions… but time will heal this. IF scott smith never fought in the UFC i bet the bloggers would be ranking him top five.
Look at Robbie… he loses to nick diaz (another guy who also didnt make it to the UFC, Mayhem miller (another)…
Beats Ninja (can), trigg (another guy who couldnt cut it ) and some idiots have him ranked in the top 5.
Could he be top 5? sure – but until he fights in the toughest division (UFC) he cannot be top 5.
Arlovski had 2 shots at the UFC belt and couldnt win it… all of a sudden he’s ranked number 2… does that make any sense?
The argument was because he’s Fedors opponent he’s number 2. .. thales leites wasnt ranked number 2 when he fought Anderson?
Boxing is messed up but even in boxing they arent this stupid.
Now we have Barnett who in his best days lost to crocop 3 times!!! all of a sudden he’s ranked number 2.
The excuse is Nog lost and Randy lost, etc… YEAH WHEN YOU FIGHT WHERE THE BEST AND MOST ROUNDED FIGHTERS ARE and WHERE YOU CANT CHERRY PICK YOUR OPPONENTS YOU SOMETIMES LOSE!
Tim Sylvia loses to NOG and Randy and Arlovski is fighting cans so the end result is a guy who couldnt beat tim sylvia 2 out of 3 times was ranked number 2. Like I said even boxing is not this stupid.
It may be better to just do organizational rankings…
At the end of the day you dont know how good a fighter is until they fight in the UFC – this is a FACT.
on the whole I agree with many of your points but
allow me to quibble
1) Lawler climbed the ranks at MW when the UFC had a really weak MW division. He was in the mix thanks to his win over Trigg and Trigg’s win over Misaki in PRIDE. Misaki was coming off the big GP win.
2) Mayhem’s only UFC loss is a decision to GSP. He’s far from a UFC washout.
3) Ninja is not a can.
4) Arlovski won and held the UFC title and I could see him beating Fedor in a rematch. I could see him beating anyone in the world on any given day. His performance against Fedor was very impressive. Fedor is lifting him and Barnett.
5) “At the end of the day you dont know how good a fighter is until they fight in the UFC – this is a FACT.” that is not a fact, that is an assertion. A fact is “Anderson Silva is the UFC champion” or “Fedor Emelianenko is ranked #1 on most polls.”
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
How about under The Unified Rules? Shouldn’t a guy have to be subject to elbows on the ground (and drug tests) before he can be called the best?
by Derek Suboticki on May 21, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA Rankings:
Just say no.
Keep firing Assholes!
This is a dream competition for me. I drink as much coffee as I want, and eventually I hallucinate.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Bloody Elbow
Related FanShots on Bloody Elbow
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
MMA Rankings
