Lyoto Machida Is Not Necessarily MMA's Karate Bellwether
Jake Rossen looks to the future and wonders if Lyoto Machida is the personification of karate's revenge on MMA:
Machida is not a "karate fighter" in the sense Ichihara was; he’s trained extensively in jiu-jitsu, muay Thai and other styles to help complete his library of martial arts. What makes Machida a story is his footwork and defensive posturing, which is classically old-fashioned. And that’s frustrating, because the sledgehammer-swinging combat hybrid fighter of 2009 doesn’t go into a gym and practice mounting or defending attacks with hands low and chins up. For them, Machida’s style might as well be pluto-fu.
It’s a blend of technique that’s had answers for everyone from Rich Franklin (good striker with Western sensibilities) to Thiago Silva (jiu-jitsu, aggression) to Tito Ortiz (power, power, power). The only question left is the one Evans is more than capable of asking: What happens when an explosive wrestler decides he doesn’t want to keep swinging at air -- he wants to plant you on your ass and pummel until you sneeze bone fragments?
It’s a great question -- Evans/Machida holds more interest for me than any fight so far this year -- and the answer is going to have real influence on how aspiring fighters choose to train. When Royce Gracie proved his style’s efficacy in a real fight, schools began painting "and jiu-jitsu" in their front windows. Ichihara might find considerable irony in MMA franchises forced to add "and karate" to their yellow page ads.
It's a reasonable idea, but we have to be cautious at this stage about karate's application across fighters and fighting styles for a couple of reasons.
There are very different styles of karate and the type practiced by Machida - Shotokan - is far from the most commonly found among fighters in MMA - Kyokushin. As I explained a few months ago:
...for the record the two kinds of karate are actually meaningfully different. Shotokan is much more about precise forms (kata), nimble footwork, cunning, speed, precision, carefully selected shots and not taking damage. Kyokushin, on the other hand, values an athletic bang fest. It’s much more about forcing exchanges, striking first and often, being able to absorb punishment and to push the physical limits of the body.
The reason I don’t think this is a huge hindrance is that GSP likely has the ability to mimic Lyoto’s style to a sufficient degree. But the differences in Shotokan and Kyokushin seemingly speak to the very styles both GSP and Lyoto adopt in the cage.
From what I'm able to tell, most fighters in MMA with karate backgrounds that have reasonably successful careers come from the full contact, aggressive Kyokushin style. Whether it's because they were looking for more full contact and MMA became the natural place to go from their karate vantage point or because Kyokushin is more suitable for the high-paced action of MMA is not totally clear. But what is clear is that while Machida makes excellent use of the Shotokan style, I'm far from convinced others will be able to make use of Shotokan with even remotely similar levels of success.
There aren't many Machida's in MMA and it's not just because he has karate in his game. He has a style of karate that is quite difficult to make effective use of in full contact, damaging, cardio-emphasizing MMA. And even with other fighters with Kyokushin backgrounds, very few are able to make much use of their karate without compromising more requisite aspects of their MMA arsenal. I'm certainly not suggesting other, more traditional forms of martial arts may never find their place in modern MMA as skill sets develop, evolve and adapt, but I'm skeptical of the idea that what Lyoto can do, others can mimic over time.
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If you really want to see the difference in Kyokushin style, watch the Fight Quest episode focusing on it. It truly is aggressive and power punching and kicking. I remember specifically they had the guys getting their stomach and hands used to unreal punishment. They had like 5 guys lined up, and he endured blasts to the midsection over a few minutes. I also remember they had the guys punching tree bark to get their hands conditioned to punching constantly and not cutting up their hands. It was pretty crazy.
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you're on to something here
the fact that Lyoto’s style is unique also makes it inimitable.
Unless you can arrange to be born the son of a great shotokan master and train from infancy at his feet before getting your black belt in BJJ, adding some muy thai and sumo, AND being a southpaw, you’re not going to get very close.
It does mean that opponents can’t find anyone to accurately replicate the style in training. That gives Lyoto a big edge.
But as opponents figure out his game and push his limits as an athlete I think we’ll see the chinks in the Dragon’s armor — especially in the clinch and inside opponent’s guards.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
I think Machida was flying under the radar for a while, but now that he’s making some noise people are going to be studying him, and maybe even Shotokan, a little more.
And if any camp is going to figure out his weakness, it’ll be Greg Jackson’s
by TheConcreteKid on May 18, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that it’s doubtful other fighters can successfully mimic what Machida does, cause there’s so many things that go into who he is as a fighter. But I’m sure the more styles like his are studied, the more we’ll see certain aspects of Karate and other traditional forms make it into MMA. They may not dominate, like the current main disciplines in MMA, but a truly well rounded and great fighter will have a mixed bag, and Karate can definitely find its place. I think it’ll be these things that set future fighters apart.
I love me some Sexyama!
Lyoto’s style is already being relatively successively aped.
Katsunori Kikuno is adopting many of the tenets of Lyoto’s style. He’s a kyokushin guy, and uses a slightly different sanchin stance, but the more practical tenets he’s mastered. He uses his stance to take away in-out movement of his opponents and keep them on the end of his kicks, and he’s mastered Lyoto’s preemptive diving punch to the clinch to blow up his opponent’s attempted strikes (except he doesn’t lunge to his opponent’s lead hand like Lyoto, which is actually technically smarter).
It’s unlikely we’re going to see someone as consummate at a particular style of karate as Lyoto any time soon, but the smaller technical components of his game and the function they serve aren’t that hard to break down and co-opt, which fighters are already doing.
by Jordan Breen on May 18, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I would have to generally agree with Jordan’s stance. I think Lyoto’s mechanics in terms of his technical prowess are something that we could see in the future of this sport, which I’m definitely all for, but I don’t believe those skills are awfully hard to replicate.
I think his quickness, footwork, and overall technical strategy are things that can be masked by other fighters, albeit that they would have to study him very well or study that type of fighting style.
Generally, I think Machida’s range from his opponent coupled with his footwork make for a deceptive form to fans. He stays away from his opponents, creating a very simple advantage for him. In order to catch Machida, his opponent has to either be speedy enough to catch him while staying relatively defensive to the counter, or like many of his opponents, lunge forward with aggressiveness to catch him. The problem with the latter is that as soon as his opponent begins to degress their forward movement, Machida simply bounce steps forward with a lunge and counters instantly.
If I’m lunging forward at a guy who is backpedaling but loading up on his hands for the counter, it’s going to be very, very tough for me to block the oncoming counter because I’m moving forward providing some power to his punch. It’s like a baseball hitting a bat in some instances. Thiago was just running into the bat for most of the matchup.
Watching Machida’s training regiment which resembled basketball drills mixed with kicks and punches, it’s no wonder he’s so unbelievable quick and accustomed to throwing counters on the run. It’ll be interesting to see how Rashad will try to counter Machida’s countering abilities because in the end, he’ll have to rely on Machida potentially coming after him. If Rashad can get him into the cage at some point, he may have a chance on the floor I suppose.
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by Leland Roling on May 18, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem with lunging at Lyoto is that most of the time he’s not “loading up his hands”. If he cocked his hands, people could dodge coming forward. The problem is that he often keeps his guard high, and uses short, ultimately less powerful but incredibly accurate short punches with short extension to keep his opponents from coming forward. It’s like taking one step into someone’s fist.
Then, even when he’s too close to cut off guys like that, he throws that diving punch into the clinch, where he can either swim to neck control, throw a guy, or disengage and reset. It’s consummate, all-phase domination.
by Jordan Breen on May 18, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I guess what I’m trying to get at is that even those short, accurate blows without tons of power can become rather devastating with an overly aggressive opponent. Running face first into counters like Thiago Silva did for most of the fight is still going to stun his opponents to the point where Machida can truly go offensive. And all of his opponents who have been just rushing at him are just adding hurt to those punches. I imagine Rashad will have to ease into combat with Machida to avoid that, but I’m skeptical as to how he’ll do with Machida’s throws and ability to keep opponents off balance.
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by Leland Roling on May 18, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
In order to catch Machida, his opponent has to either be speedy enough to catch him while staying relatively defensive to the counter, or like many of his opponents, lunge forward with aggressiveness to catch him.
- Fastest LHW – Rashad.
- Rashad is not overly aggressive.
It’ll be interesting to see how Rashad will try to counter Machida’s countering abilities because in the end, he’ll have to rely on Machida potentially coming after him. If Rashad can get him into the cage at some point, he may have a chance on the floor I suppose.
- You seem to have very little faith that Evans/Winklejohn/Jackson have even bothered to think of ways to counteract Machida’s rope-a-dope. That right there is probably why they’re some of the most highly regarded in the business – their analysis is able to reach a point that others don’t even consider.
There’s a huge swell of support to embrace the oddity that is Lyoto Machida and that is admirable. But let’s not forget one of the smartest, most adaptable, mobile, reactive, explosive, and most importantly – well-prepared – fighters in the game today. Machida has gotten to point where he’s been underrated/underexposed for so long that now he’s overrated.
I’m not going to discount Rashad, but it’s evident I feel Machida will win this matchup. If anyone is going to beat Machida, I think Evans has the ability to do so. There are some problems I forsee Evans having, and with Greg Jackson at his side, he can probably count on a gameplan to implement that will give Machida some things to think about.
I don’t understand your analysis however. Evans being considered the fastest Light Heavyweight already? I won’t state that he isn’t, but I’m not convinced that he’s the fastest. Cutting down Chuck and beating him to the punch, definitely impressive. Putting Rashad toe-to-toe with a guy, I’d give Rashad the benefit of the doubt in terms of punching power and speed, but Machida isn’t going to stand there.
But you are right that Rashad isn’t overly aggressive, but that wasn’t the point of my comments. It was to simply outline how he counters those aggressive fighters. Rashad is more than likely going to ease into combat, as he usually does in most fights.
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by Leland Roling on May 18, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
One thing I feel Rashad has that many other fighters don’t is that he “sees the fight in slow motion”. He has the ability to make some very small and quick adjustments which many other fighters don’t. This allows him to succeed in dodging/defending attacks while remaining in the pocket in order to deliver his own counters. Notice how calm he was when he had lured Chuck to the fence – he remaining planted while dodging, countered with combinations (right hand returning to his chin immediately) and used good head movement to avoid damage (earlier in the 2nd round). Up against the fence was a place where wrestlers used to go to die against Liddell.
Also interested to hear who you would consider faster/more mobile at LHW. Not sure what you mean by already, as the same question would seem to apply if I called Brock the strongest heavyweight. Already? ???
There is no fighter in Lyoto’s history that brings anything close to replicating the completeness of Rashad, which is why I don’t find his domination of lesser opponents to be all that surprising – he has exploited weaknesses that only/mostly lesser fighters have. Certainly, it takes ability to do that, but in every sport there are strategies that are effective at lower levels but do not succeed at the highest levels of competition. Machida hasn’t proven that his style is effective yet in the upper echelon, though it very well may be. I think it is, but Rashad is just a bad matchup for him.
by bigweeze on May 18, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I suppose it would come down to what exactly we are talking about in terms of speed. Are we talking about punching speed? Footwork? Punching speed, I have no idea. There may very well be guys who are just as quick in the division, but don’t have the complete game to be at the top of the division. Footwork, I still think Machida has the edge. It’s a debate obviously, and we’re just going to run in circles. I’d argue that they may very well be the fastest in different areas.
You make good points though regarding Machida’s history. Rec’d.
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by Leland Roling on May 18, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
This guy has no idea what he is talking about. Kickboxing comes from karate. Karate’s bragging rights is that it is able to adapt. The type of karate Lyoto does has proven itself in Full Contact, MMA and on the street. I have trained JKA shotokan – the same as Lyoto — and I have never had trouble adapting to full contact or MMA. The huge advantage that karate has is its technical emphasis and the use of distance. Few stand up styles train at that distance, since they use big gloves. I promise you that nearly everything that Machida does standing up comes from this background — anyone that has trained in it sees it very clearly. The difficulty is not that that kind of training that Machida grew up with is suitable to MMA — fighting at that distance is very difficult to learn and one has to start at a younger age. MMA fighters usually start a little later and do not have time to perfect karate techniques for five years before they start applying them. The style is not that difficult to adapt if one has the proper background. We also have to remember that the US has an extremely poor reputation around the world in terms of karate. Karate elsewhere is regarded with a lot more respect because it is much more legit. Maybe that is why he is confused.
Just a heads up:
TATAME just published their latest Machida interview. There isn’t a whole lot of new info. He talks about wanting to fight Q. Jackson, being inspired by the Gracies and that his toughest fight was with Sam Greco.
Regarding speed comparisons:
It would be helpful to replay the eventful parts of fights at least 5x slower and actually time punches, takedowns, etc. with a stopwatch. That way you have some empirical data to work with. As a benchmark, Fedor’s opening left hook against Sylvia took about 150 ms to execute.
by Flying Gogoplata on May 18, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions
I agree with Arte Lussionnier
I always said that the main reason why MMA fighters gravitate towards Muay Thai is because it is easier to learn and apply effectively in a fight than other forms of martial arts that are more efficient, such as Shotokan Karate. I studied Shotokan Karate for 4 years practicing between 2-4 hours a day 3-4 times a week all year round. It certainly isn’t easy to learn, and is trying for novices. Beginners usually spend most of their first year practicing stances, basic kata, strengthening leg muscles and core, and drilling basic movements. You do learn punches and kicks but much more emphasis is placed on the fundamentals related to stance and movement and controlling your center of gravity. So after a year of training, the normal student doesn’t have much they can apply to a fight. Over time though you realize that a foundation has been built to allow you to practice a wider variety of techniques in an efficient and effective manner.
Another thing about Shotokan Karate, it is one of the few martial arts that have been analyzed intensively by physicists in order to refine the techniques and to be able to teach them as well. I’ve been to countless boxing and kick boxing schools, tae kwon do schools, kyokushin schools, kenpo schools, kung fu schools and they can’t really explain the mechanics of what makes a good kick or a good punch. They can’t explain pendulum motion, rotational force, torque, they don’t break down a technique the way most Shotokan schools do. While it can be hard to learn for the average athlete, it is only because the stances and positions and movements are awkward and take a long time to get your muscles adjusted to being able to adopt this style. But you can understand what you need to do very easily from a good Shotokan instructor. I think if higher quality athletes would start studying Shotokan and start applying it from a much earlier stage in their development as MMA fighters, they would be able to adapt it much quicker with as good or better results than Machida. Machida is not a unique or inimitable athlete in this sense, he is just the first high level athlete that I’ve heard about that has taken the time (and had the faith) to adapt Shotokan to MMA.
I think you raise some fine points, but let’s revisit my point for a moment. I’m not suggesting the stylistic principles of Shotokan can’t be translated to MMA at a high level. It clearly can. What I am suggesting, however, is that to do so requires tremendously more dedication to doing so than other more other readily translatable martial arts. If what you say is true, that only reinforces the idea that Shotokan stylings have value, but that bringing them to life in high level professional MMA takes guidance from the cradle to the grave, which heretofore Machida has received. Wrestling is a dedicated sport, but much of it can be learned for MMA purposes later in life at effective clips. I believe – and it’s just a hunch, not a law – that Shotokan will rear it’s head again the style of a future MMA fighter, but the idea that Machida’s guile and cunning will help attrat a legion of karatekas to the sport is misleading. Unlike wrestlers who followed other wrestlers or MMA fighters who were able to pick up wrestling along the way, I don’t see Machida as a modern day Coleman, Kerr or Sapp sitting on the cusp of a Shotokan revolution in MMA.
Agreed – but I love how he introduced a form of striking other than boxing/kickboxing/savate into the mix. I love anyone that takes a style, dusts it off, incorporates it with the mandatory jiu jitsu and grappling and succeeds. Also, people like Jon Jones that just seem to make it up as they go along.
by Derek Suboticki on May 18, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re absolutely right, there aren’t legions of Shotokan Karate black belts chomping at the bit to get a chance to come into MMA and run roughshod. Shotokan doesn’t even really cover the ground and barely covers throws and any level of grappling. And no, there aren’t scores of Shotokan Karate practitioners with the athletic prowess to be able to adapt themselves to wrestling, muay thai, BJJ the way Lyoto has been able to. I mean, I seriously doubt the average Shotokan Karate black belt will be able to go to rAw and hang with those guys much less get glowing praises from the likes of Frank Trigg the way Lyoto was able to. But there are so many misconceptions on how to be a striker that come from Western boxing and Muay Thai influences that I would go as far as to say Shotokan Karate could ‘correct’. Like the idea that it’s ok to lift your back heel when throwing a reverse punch the way boxers do to be able to pivot or how Muay Thai fighters spin on the balls of their feet when throwing a kick. Those are big no-nos in Shotokan. Does anyone wonder why Lyoto was able to adapt to wrestling so well? Yes he took sumo, which many Shotokan practitioners study if at least in theory if not in practice (can’t practice sumo very easily in this country) because the principles on never compromising your center of gravity are the same in sumo as they are in Shotokan.
Not to mention the idea of smacking your shin against an opponent repeatedly results in several injuries that hamper fighters down the line. Lyoto throws Muay Thai leg kicks since they are good at keeping distance and good for setting up more traditional karate blows and are the hardest kicks to catch if you are a wrestler. But he throws them more of as a nuisance, not with any killer intents because he doesn’t want to injure himself which many MMA fighters wind up doing. His more serious blows (Tito Ortiz knee to the body for example) he throws traditional Shotokan style.
You don’t ever kick with your shin in Shotokan, always with either the balls of your feet, the ridges of your feet or heel if you are throwing an axe kick or back kick. By minimizing the striking surface area, you can transfer much more power from your blows. In many ways, I look at kicks with the shin kind of like smacking someone with your forearms. If you throw hard enough, and if your forearms are conditioned enough, you can knock people out…but why not strike with a smaller surface area? That’s why you punch with your fist or strike with your palm or elbows. The power of the blow doesn’t get dissipated over a large striking surface area like the forearm bone (ulna?) or the shin bone. Simple physics. The biggest drawback with Shotokan kicks (although I would say they are much more effective and powerful if thrown properly than even your best Muay Thai kick) is that they are way to easy to grab if you are a good wrestler with quick reflexes. But Lyoto has shown a simple concession to technique, and Shotokan can be applied in an MMA setting.
I used to cringe watching a striker with such a gifted sense of timing like Cro Cop almost cripple his legs after every fight (he has to ice them down for days) or watch gifted athletes from AKA come out throwing leg kicks like spinning tops. There is a much better way, a much more disciplined way, and Lyoto is showing it.

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