The UFC Hall of Fame Is Decadent and Depraved
by Mike Fagan on May 11, 2009 9:45 PM EDT
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UFC 100 will bring two new additions to the UFC Hall of Fame which has already caused rampant speculation on who those two figures will be. Chuck Liddell? Charles "Mask" Lewis? Evan Tanner? Tito Ortiz? Frank Shamrock?
Frankly, who cares? They may as well induct Dana White and Jon Hess and shutdown new membership.
I have my issues with the Baseball Hall of Fame (and they are plenty), but at least there's a transparent method to the madness. The BBWAA (the writers that vote for HOF membership) is filled with treacherous swines for human beings, but we know who's voting and the criteria they should be considering.
We don't know what exactly it takes to obtain membership in the UFC's pearly gates, but it's clear that being on the good side of Dana and other UFC brass is a very particular prerequisite.
And while I won't care about a UFC Hall of Fame until they provide objective criteria, I do want to say one thing about one name that's been bounced around. Evan Tanner does not belong in any sort of circle of elite mixed martial artists. Tanner's story is tragic, inspirational, romantic, and all sorts of descriptive adjectives, that much is true. But Tanner reminds me of someone like Harold Baines in baseball. Elite athletes should comprise a hall of fame. Tanner, like Baines, belongs in that so-close-but-yet-so-far Hall of Very Good.
For instance, right now, I feel like Rich Franklin is a borderline Hall of Famer. Reason being, he beat a lot of quality fighters, but each time he has stepped in the cage or ring against top competition (Machida, Silva, and Henderson), he wound up on the wrong side of the ledger. And Tanner, in my opinion, doesn't have near the resume of someone like Franklin.
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Its true, Tanner was not a HOF fighter skill wise. I think a good way to recognize Tanner would be if the UFC were to have an annual awards ceremony and name an award after him.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 11, 2009 9:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, this would be a good way to honor Tanner. Maybe an award for best display of “fighting spirit” or something along those lines.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I think it’s a great idea, because there are going to be many fighters that should be recognized that weren’t HOF material, but will be talked about forever. Earlier names, like Tank Abbot could get that award. One of the current names that comes to mind would be Marcus Davis, always fought with his heart and put on great shows…never top of the heap, but you can always watch knowing he’ll give you something to talk about on Sunday morning. I don’t want it to look like an “almost” award, if you fight in the UFC alone is sign enough of a fighters skill, but something special, for fighters that come out and always lay it on the line.
It probably will never happen, but I enjoyed entertaining the thought of it.
by Kaleb Kelchner on May 11, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Love the yearly awards idea. UFC could do the presentation ceremonies at the last PPV of the year.
There should be KO of the year, sub of the year, fight of the year – you know, the usual. In addition to those, a fighting spirit award, fastest stoppage award, newcomer of the year etc…
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on May 11, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree with this. I think having it the day before the last PPV of the year would be great. I wouldn’t bother with “Fastest KO” (since that would be burying the person KO’d, who might still be with the company), or Newcomer of the Year though. The median UFC fighter is only going to have two or three fights per year, and not everyone joins right at the beginning of the year. What if there’s not been any particularly impressive newcomers who have had more than two fights? Or even if you could, wouldn’t you want at least four quality nominees? With a “Fighter of the Year” category, at least they have the whole company to draw upon.
What they could do though, is have two Hall of Fame inductions during each ceremony. I also think this should be like a two hour special they do the night before on Spike TV.
The Tank Abbott award for biggest puncher of 2009 etc.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 11, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
He (Tanner) was one of the first “well-rounded” fighters. More-so than some of those under consideration currently. Great gnp as well as one of the first to utilitize muay-tai.
Spinning out solid gold, like Rumpelstiltskin.
Tanner certainly has his place in the history and evolution of the sport. But what’s his best win? Submitting a 22 year old Robbie Lawler?
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Evan Tanner does not belong in any sort of circle of elite mixed martial artists.
Agreed. I cannot stand it if he gets into the Hall of Fame. It’d make it a shame. And I feel bad for what happened but that, alone, should not gain you admittance into a Hall of Fame. Same thing with Mask.
It should be Frank Shamrock and Tito Ortiz but it won’t.
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on." - Sir Winston Churchill
As is the Kentucky Derby
You must be reading Hunter S. Thompson, judging from the headline and the “swine” reference.
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
What type of criteria do you want? It’s pretty obvious. You had to have a bunch of success at some point in the UFC’s history and you can’t be completely on the shit side of the guys who run it.
Royce, Ken, Dan, Randy, and Mark are all guys who, at one point or another, were dominant forces in the UFC and made lasting impacts on the sport. Tito and Frank fit that bill, but considering the fact that Tito has been bashing Dana White for years (and vice versa) and Frank has been bashing the UFC as a whole for years. Why is Zuffa going to go out and help these guys further cement their legacies? This is one of those difference between the UFC and other major sports leagues that we simply have to accept. Since the UFC is run by a select few guys and has been for years, getting on their bad side personally will warrant exclusion. We might not like it but it’s the way it’s going to be for a while.
Chuck is a lock for this years HOF. The other slot will likely go to “Mask,” thus opening up some type of non-fighter wing of the HOF. If it doesn’t go to Mask, they’ll probably give it to Hughes or Tanner.
Well, some sort of criteria is better than none at all. Baseball’s criteria is as follows:
Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.
(There’s also bits about playing time minimums, etc.)
Ambiguous, yes, but at least there’s some sort of standard for inclusion.
A Hall of Fame should be an objective institution. Blackballing individuals because of personal or political spats ruins the entire purpose of the whole process. The HOF should be a tribute to the elite fighters of each generation, not a good ol’ boys club of Dana and friends.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
The Baseball HOF is objective...
just like the “MMA” HOF should be. But this is the UFC hall of fame, it does not encompass all of Mixed Martial Arts.
Hall of Fame’s – in general at least – are operated outside of the organizations that govern the sports they pay homage to.
I get your point though...
but this falls under the “Zuffa is evil” umbrella to me. Dana and company can run the UFC however they like. They are still a big fish in a small pond, while the MLB/NFL/NHL is the only fish in a gigantic sea.
When/if they come to monopolize MMA then some discrestion will be required.
I just felt like I didn’t fully explain myself before.
Sorry about the spelling, I’m stuck with IE since this is my Wife’s PC (no spell check).
MLB is the only major professional league in America, but there are plenty of pro leagues around the world. Same with hockey and basketball.
And yes, the UFC is free to run their organization and related elements as they please. That doesn’t make them free of criticism though.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Also...
the baseball HoF is not just an MLB hall of fame. For what it’s worth.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 12, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Fall of fame's
Generally Hall of Fame’s are meant to encompass the whole game. The UFC’s “hall of fame” is more like the New York Yankees monument circle, or the Indianapolis Colts “Ring of Honor”.
Something that kind of gets lost in the Zuffa vs. MMa arguments.
Most sports leagues have 30 competing franchises. The UFC is a completely intersquad excercise.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
The problem with the baseball hall of fame is that the people voting don’t know shit about baseball.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 12, 2009 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree....
I said the same thing on a Sherdog thread a few days ago. Tanner, while a great guy, wasn’t a HOF type of MMA fighter.
I need to go back to that thread and see how badly I was flamed LOL> That should make for some entertainment.
At no fault of his own, Tanner’s definitely getting the Kurt Cobain treatment.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Ah man, no way....
Tanner isn’t to MMA what Cobain is to music.
Cobain is/was the person who killed glam rock and brought on an entire decade of music.
Tanner won the WW championship when the UFC was still pretty small. Not equal. At all.
I agree, Cobain was a cultural icon, but his reputation definitely grew following his untimely death. Same thing with James Dean. If Evan Tanner goes a couple more years with middling success then retires, he doesn’t get the same treatment from fans that he’s getting now.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
But Fagan's comment is still valid,
Cobain was never truly appreciated and revered until he killed himself. Same with Evan.
If you're gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.
by ThatGuyOverThere on May 11, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Some might say that peoples grief led them to put Cobain up on a pedestal and treat his work with more respect than it really deserved.
I mean, he’s getting ranked as one of the greatest rockers of all time based on two albums of fairly simple pop songs mixed some fairly sloppy and uninspired garage rock.
Dying at the right time can be great for your career. Just as Tupac.
2Pac and Nirvana are/were both awesome.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 11, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The momment you compared Evan Tanner to Harold Raines you lost any credebility that you had with me btw saying that Rich Franklin is a borderline HOF just sealed you have no idea what you are talking about.
Care to offer a proper counter-argument instead of one long, run-on, misspelled sentence?
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I prefer this effort.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 11, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
A) Baines…who was a very good player is actually a very apt comparison. He was good, but never completely dominated a league (or weight class)…etc.
B) Borderline would imply that Franklin is not currently a HoF guy, but he could get there with some big wins. As it is now though…he doesn’t have any real meaningful wins over elite competition.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 11, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a HOF should include the pioneers of the sport and then the best of the best. For all his success, Franklin only defended the middleweight title twice. As it stands, he’s no more worthy than the likes of Sherk or Sylvia.
That said, until the UFC inducts those who deserve to be included but aren’t in their good graces I don’t think it’s worth passionately arguing about.
I wouldn’t downplay the fact that Franklin only defended twice. How many fighters, who were able to take the belt, were even able to defend once. I know that Nate Quarry isn’t exactly the top of the food chain and Loisseau has turned into a bust but he still has fought all the top competition at middleweight (except for Marquart). With that said, I do believe that he is not quite ready, or if he is, it’s behind a lot of other people. Had he pulled out the decision on Henderson I think a solid case could be made for him.
My problem with the BBWAA...
is that there are members who have said that they will vote no for every “shoe-in” guy who comes up for vote. “Willie Mays didn’t get 100% of the vote, I’m making damn sure none of these new guys do either”
But that’s not really important in this discussion obviously.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 11, 2009 10:45 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, this bugs the shit out of me too. At the same time, why DIDN’T Mays, Aaron, Mantle, etc. get 100% of the vote?
Ugh, thinking of sportswriters makes me want to slit my balls off.
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Yeah sportswriters are ahole. Second only to sports bloggers, sports radio hosts and of course people who comment on sports message boards.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 11, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Like the sportswriter who voted Pujols 7th last year on the MVP race? Baseballs sportswriters are a joke.
Its the UFC HoF let them fuck it up however they want. I don’t need Dana White and his ‘yes men’ to tell me who is deserving in MMA.
The Fedors, Wandys, Horns, Bas, Sakuraba and lots of other fighters are in my HoF.
Yeah, it’s a biased promotional tool instead of a truly representative monument to the sport’s greats. So how about them Nuggets?
by Derek Suboticki on May 11, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I concur....
with them nuggets………wait……what?
If you're gonna be dumb, ya gotta be tough.
by ThatGuyOverThere on May 11, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
You can get caught up in the romanticism of a Hall of Fame if you like. The people voting, or deciding, on inductees are far from objective, because they’re people. It’s true that some standards are better than none, but not much better if voters largely ignore them or they’re too vague to mean much.
I enjoy discussing the merits of potential inductees. I just don’t take a Hall of Fame all that seriously. It’s nice for those who are honored, but that’s about it for MMA at this point. The history of MMA just isn’t long enough at this point for their to be legends the stature of those in other sports. That, by itself, makes the UFC Hall of Fame less credible right now.
by Cannon Jacques on May 11, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
One i really like, and is actually a similar length of time as the UFC is from a card game of all places, the Magic: the Gathering Hall of Fame.
Yes, I am that much of a nerd.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Wow that makes your signature really work.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 12, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions
and this website is amazing.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 12, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't mean to poke to much fun since I do plenty of nerdy things but I can help it.
Epic Showdown
I dislike Matt Hughes.
I would alternate between the “Magnum” and “Blue Steel” faces when laying down my cards in a professional MTG match to avoid awkward pictures such as these.
I think these are the only faces they have.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 12, 2009 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
;)
When will they put in Mike Long?
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 12, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow. And I don’t mean the goddamned game.
by Derek Suboticki on May 12, 2009 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably about the same time Pete Rose gets in the baseball hall of fame.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
Oh, just because he’s a prick and a cheater he can’t be in the HOF…
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 12, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
He qualifies, just nobody votes for him.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
That’s because he was a prick and a cheater.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 13, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I like to think of the UFC Hall of Fame the way I do a professional sports team retiring a player’s number. I think that’s a better comparison than other halls of fame.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
by Richard Wade on May 12, 2009 2:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Thank you for saying what needed to be said.
By all accounts Tanner was a great guy and a tragic figure but this overblown revisionism of what an amazing fighter he was, or how important he was to the sport etc. gets way out of hand.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
Baseball Hall of Fame?
I think the baseball hall of fame is the worst example of deserving players being excluded for political reasons with nothing to do with performance, i.e. Gambling.
by Beyondadrenalin on May 12, 2009 9:21 AM EDT reply actions
Honorary HoF
What about a branch of the HoF for honorary members? So not the athletic elite, but the people that they feel deserve a metion in the history of the UFC.
Mask wouldn’t be deserving of a HoF entry by an athletic standard but still deserves an honorary entry. I feel the same would be fitting for Evan Tanner, although I understand peoples opinions to the contrary. But what about an honory branch?…. like a closet of fame. A nice closet though, maybe more of a walk in wardrobe!
Harold Baines and Evan Tanner
But Tanner reminds me of someone like Harold Baines in baseball. Elite athletes should comprise a hall of fame. Tanner, like Baines, belongs in that so-close-but-yet-so-far Hall of Very Good.
I just needed to say what a great comparison this is. I agree completely, and I love that you used Harold Baines, of all people.
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
About the Baseball Hall of Fame comparisons....
I’m not saying that the argument about transparent criteria isn’t valid, but keep in mind that baseball players have to be retired to be eligible for the HoF, for several years no less. This is a luxury that it has always been able to afford, because it was started in 1936, a full 60 years after the birth of Major League Baseball. The UFC is only 16 years old, and the oldest real MMA organization, Shooto, is only 20. At least two of the people who fought in UFC 1 are still active fighters (Patrick Smith actually went 3-1 last year). Baseball had a slew of icons who were already long retired who deserved HoF status when it opened, and the mainstream sports media was not still in the process of learning what the sport was. The UFC does not have these luxuries right now. Maybe this means they would have been better off not having started a Hall of Fame at all until 2020 or so, but it’s too late now.
Basically, the UFC has to use the stars they can. They’re still a growing organization in a very young sport, with direct competition that MLB did not have in 1936 and have not had since. When Tito Ortiz and Frank Shamrock have retired from MMA for several years, regardless of where they end up, as long as they haven’t disgraced the sport ala Pete Rose, then I think it would be appropriate for the UFC to induct them then. Right now it’s not in their best interests and I don’t blame them at all for not doing it.
On the positive side, no one can say that any of the current inductees are unworthy of being there. Until the UFC has established itself as a long-term mainstream fixture in sports, and they have a whole bunch of iconic retired stars to draw upon for induction, I think the current system is fine: induct people who have unquestionably made an impact on both the UFC and MMA as a whole, or otherwise had a hugely accomplished career. I do think it would be nice if they inducted people on a more regular basis, but I understand why they’re doing it the way they are right now.
So basically, it’s just way too early to be comparing the UFC HoF to the Baseball HoF.
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