What Can the UFC Do With All These Stars?
by Michael Rome on May 11, 2009 11:47 PM EDT
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Dave Meltzer's latest column on the Liddell retirement fiasco gets at an essential future issue for the UFC:
Whether it be Liddell, Matt Hughes, Randy Couture or Forrest Griffin, every UFC-created star will reach the day they can no longer compete with the elites. At that point, it would be in their best interest not to fight when it comes to long-term quality of life, because of the damage the punishment can cause to an aging fighter.
However, such fighters will still be bigger and more marketable stars than all but a few in-their-prime stars, particularly if matched with interesting new opponents, and will be able to earn top dollar. If White won’t use them, there will be a plethora of promoters who will.
White can offer Liddell a job for life, but there are only so many jobs of that type around and more and more stars are entering their declining years.
In the case of Randy Couture, they hired him to do color commentary, but he still eventually came back. The basic problem for the UFC is this: as big name superstars get older, they will lose their ability to compete with younger and more talented fighters. However, their competitive decline is usually not matched by a decline in marketability.
Chuck Liddell is a good example, he carried UFC 97's buyrate and the show did a shockingly huge number. Fans still pay to see their heroes well after they start losing, and allowing guys like Chuck to go elsewhere would be handing the competition the keys to the castle, so to speak.
One option is to set up employment contracts that just pay guys not to fight. The contracts could include promises not to fight elsewhere for a period of five years in exchange for a salary.
Another option is setting up a "masters"-style division for retired stars to fight in. There are a lot of problems with this option, but it makes sense if you concede that guys like Chuck are just simply not going to willingly retire until they find themselves brain damaged. Fighting is in their blood, they love competition, and at least this could stop them from fighting guys 15 years younger. At least in this kind of division they could fight their peers on a limited level, and they'd still probably make a lot of money because fans pay to see their favorite fighters regardless of wins and losses.
Chuck is unique because he is so rich, but a number of fighters keep on going for years because they need the money. There are a number of companies that work with other sports stars to invest their money wisely so they have something to fall back on once they retire. The UFC should really look into using one of these in order to prevent a situation in which old, broken-down fighters keep fighting in order to pay the bills well after they should have retired. They'd have to cough up money in the short term, but it is really just a long term investment in PR that they should consider.
Frankly, I lean toward the idea of a masters division of older fighters that can agree to fight each other at any weight as long as they can both make it. Once they are outside the confines of divisions and out of consideration for title shots, those fights are really just novelties for fans to enjoy, and such a concept could potentially provide for a number of inter-division dream fights that never took place while these fighters were in their primes.
In an ideal world, fighters would retire with enough money to support themselves for the rest of their lives, and they'd know the right time to retire. Unfortunately we don't live in that world, and we have to work with the one we've got.
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"masters"
Great article, what I liked the most about it is the “masters” series idea. I like the idea of declining stars fighting in there own division. I love Sakuraba and love to see him fight but for his own good he shouldnt fight again. But a division Dana Cared about where he scooped up the old fighters and let them fight would be awsome. Shamrock vs Sakuraba 2 would be awsome. Lidell vs Coleman. I really like the idea.
I like the masters division. We could see some awesome fighters that never happened (albeit with much older fighters) Other sports have something like this where there are exhibition games with old timers. I also like the idea of using one of these companies that helps the fighters invest their money and plan for their future. At the end of the day, these fighters are all adults, but having a support system is something the UFC should seriously consider. The UFC won’t ever want to have to deal with a fighter’s union, so I think these types of support systems (both for financial planning and psychological support) and even what you mentioned as employment contracts not to fight, are all viable options. If anything, it would help the UFC head off any potential future problems they will have, whether it is fighters stubbornly wanting to fight (eg: Shamrock) or a potential fighter’s union forming. An once of prevention…
I love me some Sexyama!
I don’t like the masters idea at all. It seems to deprive those fighters of credibility to be herded into a retiree fighting division. I would much prefer to see Chuck face someone he is likely to beat, with the consolation that should he lose, that fighter would get a boost in popularity. And sure, he can fight other old timers, too. But I don’t think there should be a defined idea that old timers can only fight one another after they’ve reached a certain point. What happens if Chuck starts pounding out the likes of Coleman and Shamrock and wants to get back into the mix at 205? I just don’t think it works..
I poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on May 11, 2009 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Agreed.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 11, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If we don't have a masters division
then where will we put 131 year old Vitor Belfort?
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 11, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agree.
Let Wanderlei Silva, Chuck, and Franklin fight each other all they want, but don’t call it a master’s division. That makes it impossible for them to fight a younger fight to help put them over, and will probably hurt their draw.
The guys want to fight, they can fight, they can draw viewers and make themselves and the UFC money, there’s no reason they shouldn’t fight. But I think promoting it as a masters division would be dumb.
I think the UFC would just work it so you have to be a certain age. IE:40 years old to fight in the masters, but you are not confined to the 40+ division should you put a significant streak together. I like the division in that it adds potential co main events for thinner cards. I also think its good because it could potentially add another demographic to the UFC fan base. By featuring more seasoned fighters you may start to pull older viewers who don’t relate to the younger more obnoxious fighters but do relate to some of the old guard and their struggles against the clock.
YAMATO DAMASHII
Yea, I don’t really like the idea either.
A “Masters” division would generate money and interest, but overall, it’s not good for the progression of the sport. Older fighters are more likely to gas during fights, and that just makes for some really ugly, sloppy fights. A fight between two completely gassed fighters is a sad sight to see (Kimbo vs. Thompson). It may be entertaining to see a drunken slugfest, but in the long run, fights like that only make the UFC look bad and make it harder for MMA to become mainstream.
Gracie vs. Sakuraba 2
All the evidence you need that a masters division is nowhere near as good in practice as it sounds on paper.
It would be interesting to see what happens if Chuck wants to fight (having one fight left on his contract) and Dana continues this forced retirement thing. He’s basically gone on the record on numerous occasions saying that he will not allow him the right to fulfill his contractual obligations nor will he perform his own contractual obligation (providing him another fight).
If Chuck decides he’s going to pull a “Randy” and explore opportunities elsewhere, I think he’d have a much more compelling argument in court. This is all most likely moot as I don’t see Chuck fighting for anyone but his good buddy, but still poses an interesting issue.
I am the bastard love child of Junie Browning and Diamond Dave Kaplan.
A pension system will never happen in the UFC. Aside from the fact that Dana, Lorenzo & Co would likely rather pour profits back into the growth of the sport (and their wallets), it would be foolish for the company to commit to uncertain long-term liabilities of any kind.
Plus, there probably aren’t many guys that would last long enough in the UFC to vest any kind of retirement benefit. What’s the average tenure of a UFC fighter? 6 fights? 7 fights?
Besides, the real elephant in the room is health care. Fighters who have taken too many beatings, trained too hard, and have taken too many painkillers will need to have knees replaced, arthritis drug scripts filled, and plenty of physical therapy sessions.
To all of the Masters Division naysayers...
The idea above about a pension system seemed like a good start. Yet, I disagree with you guys because I don’t see anyone offering any solution to the growing problem. I look back to the NFL, NBA and MLB as examples, they all have a HOF, but those sports are not as physically demanding as MMA. So what do you guys propose they do after their proverbial window is closed? Seek endorsements? MMA isn’t mainstream enough for Miller Light or Old Spice.
The NFL is much more physically demanding than MMA
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on May 12, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t say that MMA is more physically demanding that those other sports, particularly the NFL. A pension system for guys who aren’t around a company for a long time are worthless because they aren’t there long enough to put much into one, not to mention the fact that MMA fighters aren’t employees they are independant contractors. Honestly a big problem is that a retired athlete is no where close to retirement age, sports are for young people not a lifetime career, you got guys like Jens Pulver talking about retirement, he’s 33 years old there is no pension plan that is going to pay a guy for 50 years. Those other sports with disability and pensions are through their unions, everyone pays into those it’s not just big sports giving out free money to older guys(particularly guys who can still work).
I guess there is a disconnect when talking about athletes and retirement, Chuck Liddell is only 40 years old, just because his fighting skills are fading doesn’t mean that it’s time to wander off to the nursing home he’s just half done with his life if he didn’t put back tons of money then he’s still going to have to be working doing something for decades to come. Only mega-rich super stars get to “retire” when they retire from sports most guys go out and find other jobs for the second half of their lives. The only “plan” here is that athletes need to be planning for the second half of their lives while living the first half or they are going to be in trouble when they can’t fight anymore, just like the rest of us they will be working well into their 60’s regardless of what they are doing now.
The masters division doesn’t seem like a good idea to me either. You would likely end up with guys who shouldn’t be in the division mopping the floor with guys who have let their skills and training slip since they have less on the line.
I like the idea of trying to help set fighters up after fighting. The UFC already does this to a small extent with their video game and figurines though I am not sure how much fighters get from this.
I think it would be greatly beneficial for the UFC to set up a pension plan that fighters automatically pay into with each fight purse that they can collect provided that they are retired and have not fought for any other companies since leaving the UFC.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
If it’s anything like wrestling, where with Jakks Pacific a lot of wrestlers had deals that were directly with the company, action figure deals only net a wrestler a ballpark amount of $5000 per figure unless you’re a real big name. You might get multiple figures if you sustain your popularity, but overall fighters don’t get a lot of income from it.
Videogames might be a bit better if a company decides to come out using non-UFC fighters (I think EA Sports might be planning this), as a successful franchise could have annual installments, and you could have a Legends Division in a videogame that would be much less embarrassing than in real life. The pay is also better per game than with figurines. Unfortunately no such game exists yet, and this is just a best-case scenario.
While I don’t know how plausible it is, I think training them as referees would be great. They know the rules, they can stay active in the sport, and remain a public figure.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 12, 2009 12:07 AM EDT reply actions
That was probably my favorite entry.
by Derek Suboticki on May 12, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
The notorious interview that kicked off the drunk-Chuck meme was blamed on his flu meds.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 12, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Ahh
Chuck loves Nyquil.
I poop rainbows.
by Blackout612 on May 12, 2009 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
didn’t the IFL have a masters type division? that maurice smith/marco ruas fight was atrocious. alot of these guys can,will and already have made alot of money by opening their own gyms using their poularity in the ufc and putting their names behind them to catapault them. they can still make a good living from their past glories.
+18
The guys that can coach and are smart business-wise will do better financially over the long run than the biggest stars.
by MMAEruption on May 12, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Tyson made close to half a billion dollars and he’s broke…. it doesnt matter how much they make. Fighters by nature are not frugal with their money and most will have sad retirements.
Chuck has 3 more fights left from a business stand point…
You can use him for 3 more fights and leverage his star power onto some other fighters.
But Chuck is a special case – Dana will not be forcing anyone else to retire when they have business viability. So no need for a “senior citizen” class.
Dana wouldnt be able to forgive himself if Chuck was hurt… its not the fights – its the sparring at 40 years that can do damage. Some people can do it – but the Nyquil killed Chuck.
The rest of the fighters will fight until they are not marketably viable anymore so no need to worry.
In reality the fights after you are shot are some of best money you will make in your career because usually you are at the top of the downtrend.
The franklins, forrests, Hughes, etc… will have maybe 1 or 2 fights a year once they are shot.
Hughes vs henderson
Forrest vs franklin
Forrest vs henderson
Forrest vs Nog
etc…
They dont need to be in the title picture to still sell fights.
by mmalogic on May 12, 2009 1:07 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I think the Liddell version is a one-off because of his relationship with Dana. Look at Mark Coleman. If Matt Hughes loses to Serra he definitely should retire as well but he probably won’t.
old guy sports have never sold well. ever. you take a dude who people want to see fight for world titles fight for some crappy “old guy” belt and no one will want to watch. it loses importance.
im rollin at logic talking about how the fights after you are shot are the best money you will make. theres no other sport you can say that about except mma. the best part though is that all the dudes that are gonna end up washed up and looking for big money are gonna get the tito ortiz treatment. like matt hughes is gonna be getting 7 figures after he loses his first real fight in this comeback.
If the UFC was run by your logic, Couture-Sylvia never would’ve happened. I’m glad it’s not.
by Derek Suboticki on May 12, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA isn’t the only sport like that, heck if you keep up with the NFL you know that teams get burned by high priced free agents that can’t play like they used to all the time. The seasons after you peak is when you make your most money because teams sign you to contracts according to what you did in the past and hope you do that in the future, MMA is no different.
because teams sign you to contracts according to what you did in the past
no they dont. they sign big contracts immediately after contract years. you know. when dudes have their contracts run completely out and hit free agency. mma doesnt have that.
Another problem with a "Masters' Division"...
is who are the guys in that division who don’t do very well in it going to fight? Would the Master’s Division have gatekeepers and lower-tier guys? Would the Master’s Division have an equivalent to a David Louseau? What if a guy who was once a big star starts losing a lot even within the Master’s Division? How long do you keep someone like that? And how old becomes too old? Do you really want to see someone fighting for 5-10 years in the Old Man Division? And what does it say about that division when you have a guy like Randy Couture who is north of 45 who is still a legit Top 10 HW?
And while merely bringing back people like Don Frye and Maurice Smith for the occasional Legends’ “Superfight” once in a while might be okay in theory, even then it might just look horrible seeing old men sloppily scrap when on the same card with guys like Jon Jones and Nathan Marquardt putting on MMA clinics.
A “Masters’ Division” is not the answer.
The best thing the UFC can do to aleviate this situation
is the provide solid financial advice to fighters that sign with them.
Most other major sports have financial advisors that are part of the package when it comes to a contract. And while UFC, let alone MMA, fighters don’t make what pro Football or Baseball players make, for example, it makes financial advice that much more important…not less.
With such help, you would see far fewer Shamrocks and Colemans.
by Razreshat on May 12, 2009 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
the number of nfl and nba players that go broke is insane. no one wants to talk about that though. not a real exciting story. mma guys are gonna be worse off just because they make less to begiin with. guys are scraping to survive over 10-15 year careers fighting. when theyre washed up like phil baroni theyre gonna end up getting beaten retarded.
by nigelzackit on May 12, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t feel sorry for those players. If you blow more money than I’ll ever make by the time you’re fifty, guess what? You’re a fucking idiot.
by Derek Suboticki on May 12, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You can tell guys to invest smart all you want and give them all the financial training in the world and you will still have lots of guys who end up broke in the end. Heck it seems the more money in the sport it seems the more guys you have that will blow through it like there is no end. The lifestyle these guys want to lead just cost a lot of money to maintain and a lot of them don’t want to save for the future or think about getting old.
Of course currently in MMA most guys don’t make enough now to even consider saving for a long retirement. Guys like Couture and Coleman and Liddell may be old for MMA fighters but honestly 40 years old isn’t that old, they could live another 40 years.
Guys like Chuck want to keep fighting in the UFC because they want to fight top level competition. A masters division would not provide the kind of competition that guys like Chuck are looking for, a separate division would be a slap in the face to guys in this situation.
In terms of old fighters continuing to fight because the need the money, maybe an UFC pension fund like the NFL has for its retired players would be a good idea?
Marc Ratner wants them
I bet he could be Bob Reilly to agree to a public debate on the merits of MMA with Chuck, Ken, and Tito.
It’s a perfect job opportunity for these guys! Let’s get MMA sanctioned!
‘Retiring Before You Have To – A Seminar’
by Derek Suboticki on May 12, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Tito has amazing speaking skills. I bet he would have Bob Reilly so fucking confused Reilly would think hes approving some helmet law for people with abnormally large heads.
How about College: Professor Liddell anyone?
Spoiler- Makes me think of “The Wrestler.” All the fans were happy to see “Randy The Ram” in a no holds barred match and his promoters loved to cash in on his draw. On the flip side he was addicted to numerous pain killers and steroids to live up to peoples expectations and it eventually ravaged his body and killed him. Good movie by the way. -End Spoiler
I think you have the financial welfare of fighters in mind here and you have some pretty good ideas to boot. Personally I think fighters should find the time before a fighting career or after retirement to develop other skills or start a small business and use their name to help accumulate wealth in a civilized and healthy manner for themselves and their family. Forgetting about College is a stupid thing to do most of the time. Although that’s the perfect world you mentioned and I’m sure in about 20 years (heck, right now) from now some mediocre fighter today will probably be clashing in the hexagon in a gymnasium nearby with Kimbo Slice’s brother and will score a nice wad of cash. Unless we have that socialized medicine by then this kind of investment won’t always cover the hospital bills.
by toughaintenough on May 16, 2009 11:35 AM EDT reply actions
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