Another View on Roy Jones Jr. in MMA
by Kid Nate on May 10, 2009 12:01 PM EDT
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Ben Fowlkes takes the contrarian stance:
This is about more than Jones trying to keep his fighting career alive (though it is certainly also about that). This is about the raison d'être for MMA. This is a sport that sprung out of the desire to see a fighter from one traditional discipline face a fighter from a different traditional discipline. Kickboxers against sumo wrestlers, karate black belts against Greco-Roman wrestlers, jiu-jitsu practitioners against boxers -- this kind of combat curiosity is the primordial ooze from which modern MMA crawled.
Now a boxer wants to try his hand at it and we tell him he has the wrong resume? He didn't come through the right channels, so he can't even try? That doesn't sound like the MMA I used to know.
I think he's fundamentally on to something here.
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If RJJ wanted to come into MMA like everyone else, more power to him. No cutsies, even for you Mr. Big Shot Boxer.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on May 10, 2009 12:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
iiowyn nailed it.
I agree with Fowlkes in principle, but putting RJJ in with Anderson Silva is a bit much. Nobody gets the champ right off the bat. Nick Diaz, Nate Marquardt, Thales Leitis, Patrick Cote… There is a huge list of fighters who would give RJJ all the challenge he needs, without the need to derail a champion who should be defending his belt against ranking competitors.
yah you must be at least 2-1 in the ufc to get a title shot in the ufc! no shortcuts for a famous world championship boxer
At least Brock Lesnar was actually getting into the sport of MMA, Jones Jr just wants one payday against Anderson SIlva. If Roy Jones Jr. wanted to sign a 3 fight deal and try to get to Anderson SIlva as his third MMA fight it would be a completly different discussion. It’s doubtable that a Athletic commission would sanction these two against each other in a boxing match or a MMA match as neither has professional experience in the other’s sport.
Nonsense. Lesnar is a scrub. At least RJJ put his reputation on the line when he boxes. He’s got a hell of a lot more credibility than Lesnar did when that novice fighter got his title shot.
Your opinion of Lesnar is irrelevant as is Jones Jr’s reputation in the boxing world (which doesn’t seem to be all that either), what is important is that Brock Lesnar is making a career of MMA where as Roy Jones Jr wants one single fight with Anderson Silva. If Roy Jones Jr wants to make a career of MMA then we have a entirely different situation to discuss but until he commits to MMA long term his situation and Brock Lesnar’s situation are 100% completly different situations that have absolutly nothing to do with each other and don’t even belong in the same discussion.
Oh, How I Love This Response!
And Brock was 1-1 in the UFC when he fought for the world championship.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
This argument is an obvious strawman. Nobody is arguing that RJJ can’t try his hand at MMA. They are arguing that he should not be given a shot against a specific fighter – Andersen Silva.
by Jahbulon on May 10, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
Rec'd.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 10, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
If it isn’t for the belt, it shouldn’t matter. Silva would probably keep it standing unless he got hurt badly. Everyone would watch it. Dana just doesn’t want to risk the chance that Anderson could lose.
I can understand it from a credibility standpoint BUT, Dana buys and trades his standards on what is legitimate competition based on the direction of the wind. That’s the problem I have with his and everyone elses “it’s bad for the sport” argument".
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not just White saying that, Showtime want’s no part of this either http://mmajunkie.com/news/14797/after-ufc-declines-invitation-roy-jones-jr-shut-out-of-strikeforce-too.mma
Why risk an injury to Anderson and cost deserving people title shots?
Why isn’t Roy happy signing a 3 fight contract and starting from the bottom?
When the boxing crowd finally figures out this is MMA not boxing, maybe someone will get it right and fight FIRST then call people out.
The UFC has never put champions in meaningless fights. Why cheapen the product? It hasnt worked for any promotion who has put on freak shows.
Anderson is a different duck, Roy knows they will stand and bang only. Why wont he go fight Lawler or Diaz? Its cause both would crush him.
“He didn’t come through the right channels, so he can’t even try?”
Who says he can’t try? Didn’t Roy just run and fight on a hybrid boxing/MMA card?
Roy hasn’t bene blackballed, he just hasn’t proven anything. The larger organizations see no benefit in going for the quick cash grab which marginalizes the rest of the talent. Why does he expect to be thrown in with main-eventers when noone can even tell whether he can get past a journeyman?
If he really wants to perform in MMA, Jose Canseco has found work in Japan, and a limbless fighter just fought less than a month ago.
Showtime Senior Vice President Ken Hershman:
“I get a Roy Jones call once a week pitching me things,” Hershman said on today’s Strikeforce media call. “[A fight between Diaz and Jones Jr.] would be a very long shot of ever happening.”
While Jones Jr. would certainly command a salary far greater than that of any current mixed martial artist, Hershman said the financial challenges of the arrangement aren’t the biggest issue.
“It has nothing to do with money,” Hershman said. "I think it’s an insult to the integrity of mixed martial arts to think Roy Jones, or any professional boxer, could just come in and fight Nick Diaz in a mixed martial arts context. In a boxing context, it’s completely different.
“But beyond that, it’s not the strategy we’re employing. We’re looking to build the best mixed martial arts brand. I believe we have the best professional boxing brand on television, and I think our fights month in and month out prove that. I don’t see the need to combine the two at the moment.” http://mmajunkie.com/news/14797/after-ufc-declines-invitation-roy-jones-jr-shut-out-of-strikeforce-too.mma
It’s not just the UFC that isn’t buying into this.
You Mean The Same Guy Who...
who helped push Kimbo down our throats?
Sorry, don’t care what he has to say. Do Gray Shaw and $Kala think its a bad idea as well?
Also, we are talking about RJJ fighting Silva and that’s it. Silva would have a gentleman’s agreement to keep it standing and most likely honor it. Anyway, this is a unique situation that really doesn’t involve Diaz, Hersman, Showtime or Strikeforce.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is that it’s not just Dana White balking at the idea of Roy Jones jr. The same people who put Kimbo on Showtime and gave us Bob Sapp vs Jan Norjte are also skeptical of this bit. Heck it seems that Showtime doesn’t even want to mess with Roy Jones jr boxing matches anymore.
The whole possibility of a gentilemen’s agreement BS is the main reason I would be against it. If they want to box then take that crap to a boxing or K-1 ring but if Anderson SIlva made a smart gameplan and used all his considerable MMA skills instead of limiting himself this would be a joke of a fight as Jones jr wouldn’t have any clue what to do on the ground with a BJJ blackbelt. If Roy Jones jr wants to take up MMA as a full time career then that would be great otherwise this is just silly.
Anderson DID want to box...
but Dana would not let him. So, RJJ is saying “hey, I will fight by your rules Dana. Let’s just make it happen”.
Now Dana has a NEW reason why it can’t happen…the integrity of the sport. That is code for, “I’m afraid my guy might f*ck around and lose an make me look like a jackass”.
Its stupid to say “hey RJJ, you can’t fight MMA because you don’t have the training” when RJJ is ONLY willing to fight MMA to make the Silva fight happen. Dana doesn’t want to risk HIS P4P king getting beaten by a boxer who will up and leave. It doesn’t matter what rules are used. That is the bottom line.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Get real they aren’t going to fight MMA and we all know it, Roy Jones jr has no interest in a MMA career or even a MMA fight, they cut some deal to make this boxing in a cage and that is retarded. If Roy Jones jr wanted to sign a 3 fight deal to fight MMA as a career in the UFC then they would of signed him and we would be having a very different conversation but cage boxing is silly.
If they fought MMA with Anderson Silva using his full skill set then the fight wouldn’t last more than a minute because a BJJ black belt vs a guy with absolutly no ground training at all would be a joke, they aren’t trying to do that they are trying to do a
“gentleman’s agreement” for cage boxing only in the guise of MMA.
If Anderson SIlva goes in and decides to keep it boxing (why everyone keeps talking about a potential gentlemen’s agreement) then there is a very good chance Anderson SIlva will lose. If Anderson Silva actually used his full ability set it would take less than a minute for him to take Jones down and sub him out, the match would either be a slaughter or a joke depending.
Great article and I agree. To add to what has been said, RJJ vs the spider would also be a great matchup in terms of the pure boxing style vs the modified striking style seen in MMA. With both fighters posessing speed, reflexes and agility, this is a fight worth watching.
Anderson Silva is a BJJ black belt in a real MMA fight all he would have to do would be to take Jones down and sub him out, Jones wouldn’t even know what was going on. If they want to box then that should be in a boxing ring and if they want to test boxing vs kickboxing it should be done in a K-1 ring.
"That doesn't sound like the MMA I used to know"
MMA now is no longer the MMA you used to know. The other posters have done an excellent job of pointing out why the argument holds no water.
MMA isn’t the sport he used to know anymore. The days of one discipline against another are over. Further, as everyone has posted here, this is an obvious straw man. Nobody is saying he can’t try, we’re saying he can’t come in to face the champ and then leave.
If it is a non-title bout, why can’t he? Because he might win? We wouldn’t want that to happen because it would hurt the image of the sport, Lesnar/Couture not withstanding.
The fact is, Dana isn’t going to let anyone come into the UFC and fight one of his champions and then leave. That’s what this really all about.
Every other argument made on this page is just smoke and mirrors for that one inconvenient truth.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes it’s a big giant UFC conspiracy that’s why Showtime/Strikeforce also won’t touch Roy Jones jr in MMA, they must all be in it together.
Of course not letting someone come in and fight one of your champions and just leave does make sense, it would be silly to allow that to happen but then if it was a real MMA fight Roy Jones jr would have very little chance, the problem is that Anderson SIlva wants to box Roy Jones jr not have a MMA fight with him thus the whole MMA in a cage part of this is a complete joke. There are so many levels on which this is a silly idea that it’s hard to call any one of them what it’s really all about.
It IS a joke but Dana won’t let them box. This is the alternative. Why is it that neither of these options is worthy of consideration by the UFC?
Is it about integrity or the bottom-line? Zuffa HAS been known to sacrifice one for the other, the other being the bottom-line, of course.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Well if that’s all they are after then they can get together in a gym and get it on Rocky 3 style but their goal is to get paid and that does make a difference. This is a business decision so obviously there will be business issues involved in it. Besides what Zuffa has done in the past is irrelevant to what they do today as they get stronger they can afford to have more integrity about their product (and it does say a lot that Showtime was willing to put freaken Kimbo on air but won’t touch this either).
They aren’t going to let them box because Anderson SIlva is under UFC contract, he’s not a boxer and that’s not a UFC fight. I don’t think they would care if he boxed him after his contract is up but instead of boxing the UFC wants him to be fighting MMA fights. Roy Jones jr fighting MMA is silly because he doesn’t actually want to fight MMA, if Roy Jones jr signed a long term deal and wanted to have a career in MMA then that would be great but this is just a gimmick designed to get him a quick payday.
Not to mention the fact that those guys who represented their discipline did so for the low four digits – if they were lucky.
by Derek Suboticki on May 10, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
And many times the low two digits.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on May 10, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Why can't he face the champ?
He’s a highly established champion in another combat sport, who the champion from our sport would like to face. If we won’t make superfights for champs then when will MMA ever be able to test and establish itself in the public eye as anything other than guys who can’t compete in boxing? This is the fight that would cement the sport in the eyes of fans around the world and take this sport to the next level. All it requires if for us to let to Martial Artists Mix it up.
No on in boxing is going to say RJJ has no skills, even now. Diminished from his prime, sure, but that’s what you guys say about Anderson. Other than Kermit, no one in boxing has the balls to step up. A champion of RJJ’s standing and accomplishment should get the chance to step in with a similarly accomplished champ.
Last, the arguments about not deserving a shot is absurd. Who the fuck else deserves a shot that is an exciting fight for Anderson’s final bouts? Bisping? Okami? Marquardt? Maia? I’m a fan of three of those guys and still would prefer to see this first. Maia has a slight chance, and Marquardt’s sloppy but admittedly exciting amateur-level blitzes are gonna get him dropped in quite the Leben-esque fashion.
At least with the RJJ fight we can have something on a UFC show that will go down in history as something special. With the challengers Anderson’s had, despite how much you all heap praises on him , he’s fought no one of much import, and no one who we’ll be telling our grandchildren about. This could change that and change the face of this sport forever. We just have to accept that it could change it for the worst if he loses. But that is the nature of life. Hiding from it is the antithesis of the Martial Way.
Anderson Silva has no professional boxing matches and Roy Jones jr has no professional MMA fights, it’s apples and oranges and it’s doubt ful that a athletic commission would santion this fight in either sport. Beyond that if Anderson Silva truly wanted to fight Roy Jones jr in MMA it wouldn’t last a minute(and even boxing guys know that), Anderson Silva is a BJJ blackbelt and Jones has no ground training at all that we know of. If Anderson SIlva didn’t immediatly take him down and easily sub him out then what’s the point of it being a MMA fight? These two want to box not fight MMA so having it in a MMA cage is silly.
Anderson Silva has no professional boxing matches and Roy Jones jr has no professional MMA fights, it’s apples and oranges and it’s doubt ful that a athletic commission would santion this fight in either sport.
Complete nonsense and fallacy. Brock Lesnar had ONE professional MMA fight when he fought Frank Mir, who has been so valiantly praised as former world champ. Wrestling and MMA are just as dissimilar as Boxing and MMA or BJJ and MMA would be. If RJJ told the commission he had been training MMA for 6 months, I guarantee you they would allow it.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
At that point Brock Lesnar had one fight and been full time training for MMA for over a year and Frank Mir’s career was on a major downswing at the time. If Roy Jones jr actually did train MMA for 6 months(like they aren’t going to check to make sure it’s true) then perhaps he could get a fight with someone on a Chris Leben or Patrick Cote level.
Anderson does have two pro boxing matches under his belt
FYI, he’s 1-1.
Hyperbole much? If you want this kinda stuff, go watch some Japanese shows, they love throwing famous non-MMA contact sport fighters into the grinder.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
So do we
they love throwing famous non-MMA contact sport fighters into the grinder.
Every wrestler in MMA. Period.
They learn as things go on, natch. They have no choice since the single skill they bring in doesn’t actually end fights unless it’s used illegally.
RJJ brings in a skill that does this to people.
Does that mean he can stop a kneebar from MirMaia? does that mean he can stop Anderson Silva’s Knees?
We won’t know until we see him fight in the Real Squared Circle. I don’t think there’s integrity to be lost in letting someone with skills try their hand at the Greatest Game. Its not Hyperbole, I just feel differently about this game than you guys.
Well, Lesnar was WWE Champ a couple of times (an acronym which holds about as much credibility with me as any of the alphabet soup boxing organizations do). Would you have been pissed if he walked in to a title shot?
by Derek Suboticki on May 10, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He did.
I actually like Brock as an MMA fighter so far, but he did walk into a title shot due to previous recognition. He lost to Mir and got a title shot. Then he got legit with the hardcores by clipping and smashing Randy. No one thought he deserved it, only that it was good business by putting a high profile guy against another high profile MMA legend.
That’s how it looks to me anyway. I still understand you cats wanting to maintain the burgeoning integrity of people getting knee’d in the phizz and all, I just don’t agree with its application to this fight between two highly trained fighters with a wealth of experience and technical dexterity between them.
This doesn't
This doesn’t even have to be about MMA’s ground game that Roy doesn’t have. We all know a blue belt in BJJ would rape the average guy that doesn’t grapple.
Try to box with a guy that uses kicks, knees, elbows and punches. It’s almost impossible.
Roy’s boxing skill, even though it’s not what it was before, is in the upper 99% of people in the world. It’s just not the same game that MMA fighters are playing.
A boxer is just begging to get his lead leg kicked to death…..
Is Arlovski fighting Klistchko? His boxing fight isnt even being televised.
Some people have no common sense…
Dana was willing to sign Roy to a 3 fight deal. Where he would be able to fight a prospect, a slight contender and if he wins then Anderson.
Roy had no interest in fighting MMA. They made a deal with Soares to make it a boxing match in the UFC.
Any idiot who wants to entertain this – I suggest you go hang out with Jared Shaw in his basement or go watch dream and canseco… or better yet admit to who you are and go watch pro-wrestling.
Its like closet homos dressing their boyfriends up like girls so they can pretend to be straight.
by mmalogic on May 10, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Right...
pro-wrestling and MMA have nothing in common.
Watch MMA much? Lesnar fighting Couture for the title was a joke and nothing resembling real competition or earning a title shot. Did I mention that the UFC’s entire business model and Dana’s management style, is based on the WWE?
When you rode by on your elitist high horse, doing your best Dana impression, you missed what this entire situation was about…CONTROL and public image. Dana won’t let Anderson fight RJJ because RJJ will only agree to a one fight deal. Dana won’t risk RJJ beating the P4P best fighter in the world and walking away. The rules they fight under are irrelevant in this matter.
Also, if you stop with the name-calling for a second, you might be able to comprehend that a MMA fight between RJJ and Silva would actually be competitive. Silva is a sportsman and I doubt he would just take Roy down and submit him. His skills in Muay Thai and boxing vs. Roy’s world-class boxing could create an interesting dynamic and exciting fight.
Comparing this potential match-up to Canseco vs. HMC or Kimbo vs. anyone really shows that your weak argument is only backed up by your “f*ck you, homo” mentality and let me just say, I am not impressed by your performance.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, if you stop with the name-calling for a second, you might be able to comprehend that a MMA fight between RJJ and Silva would actually be competitive. Silva is a sportsman and I doubt he would just take Roy down and submit him. His skills in Muay Thai and boxing vs. Roy’s world-class boxing could create an interesting dynamic and exciting fight.
Competitive? Yes if Anderson Silva intentionally self limited his skills and abilities, tossed out any simbolance of a game plan designed to win and fought Roy Jones jr in a way to Jones jr’s distinct advantage this fight might last more than a minute, that’s not competitive that’s silly, heck it’s even worse than the stuff people give Anderson SIlva crap for doing in fights now because this wouldn’t even be him trying to get a smart win it would be him catering his style to Roy Jones liking.
You really are coming off like you are just on a “I hate the UFC rant” as opposed actually trying to talk about what is going on.
So Let Them Box...
And I don’t hate the UFC, I hate new-age MMA fans who worship Dana White and NEVER point out that the UFC and its president are not infallible. They ARE concerned with the bottom-line. They ARE self-serving. They protect the integrity of the sport as long as it is beneficial to them.
I don’t mind sounding like a hater because there are so many others that wanna be Dana’s BFF. I know Dana is a promoter and I understand what promoters do. If that realization means I can’t be Dana’s BFF then…I’m cool w/that.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on May 10, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Professional sports are by defintiion about the money, that’s why they are “professional” sports. Heck the bottom line is “if it doesn’t make money it ceases to exist”. There is nothing wrong with being concerned about the bottom line because that is what is most important. The integrity of the sport is is very important but it isn’t more important than the continued existance of the sport and that continued existance comes from people involved making money.
The integrity of the sport is one of many reasons for this fight getting a pass, the fact that Roy Jones jr doesn’t want to stay in MMA, the fact that Anderson SIlva doesn’t actually want to fight Roy Jones jr in a MMA match(this is just a gimmick to get the boxing match), the fact that Roy Jones jr is going to want a huge payday for this and the fact that if Anderson Silva fights Roy Jones jr’s game he probably will lose and make the sport of MMA look second rate compared to boxing are all arguements that go right along with the integrity of the sport. The arguements agaisnt this are numerous and diverse. Hell in this situation the UFC probably could make a hell of a lot of money off this it’s that the arguements against it outweight the immediate financial gain.
I totally agree....
I don’t see why anyone ever called this “a freak show” or whatever. He’s a legit fighter, however not MMA fighter. Still, the man can throw hands and at one time was the best pugilist in the world. Why not give him a shot if he wants one? I’m not saying the UFC should allow the Anderson match, because it’s not totally a freak show, but it is gimicky. Still. Roy’s a fighter. Anytime he steps up to throw down with someone calling it a freak show is a slap in the face of what he’s accomplished.
He’s not trying to be a MMA fighter he’s trying to get a one shot deal to fight Anderson Silva and even that would be different if we could be sure that Silva would use his full skillset instead of limiting himself to cage boxing too. If they don’t go all out with their full skill sets trying to win with MMA gameplans then this is the same as Tim Sylvia vs Ray Mercer. Any half way competent MMA fighter would take Roy Jones jr down and sub him out immediatly as he has no ground training at all and standing with him would be dangerous, in a real MMA fight this is a slaughter.
The reality of the situation:
An MMA fight between RJJ and Anderson Silva would never be sanctioned. A boxing match between RJJ and Anderson Silva would never get sanctioned. Anderson Silva has Forrest Griffin, Bisping/Hendo, Nate/Mia and possibly GSP fights penciled in for the forseeable future. These fights will take up the next 1-2 years. At that point RJJ will be about 42 years old, and probably retired. RJJ has traditionally depended on his speed which would have badly depreciated by this time.
Arguing the merits of a RJJ vs Anderson Silva fight at this point is purely academic.
Keep firing Assholes!
This is a dream competition for me. I drink as much coffee as I want, and eventually I hallucinate.
If I am Dana White
(Imagine the everything from this point has F—k between every two words) I wouldn’t want this fight. Assuming that Roy only wants one fight, and only against Silvia, aside from Silvia losing, a bigger issue is him getting hurt. Granted every fighter takes a risk stepping into the ring. But say if, and this is of course a big if, Silvia gets popped right away, Jones just connects and say, breaks Silvia’s eyes socket (it could happen), I (as Dana) would lose my champion, the money I make off his fights, and I couldn’t market Roy since he only wants to do one fight. Would it be smart to risk your champion for almost no return? Chances are, the fight would be terrible and to risk a champ in a fight that just looks like a cheap gimmick doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace
"
by UMBC Oriole fan on May 10, 2009 4:43 PM EDT reply actions
I guess this is a stupid question...
but would Roy wear boxing gloves?
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace
"
by UMBC Oriole fan on May 10, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
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