MMA Rankings: The Best Approach
I must admit that whilst reading Luke Thomas' recent post on the the BE rankings being printed in USAT I was a little conflicted. Its great to get that kind of exposure but I wasnt sure that the BE rankings were necessarily the best to use, especially considering Wamma's push to legitimize their rankings through ESPN. Whats next, Sherdog's rankings being displayed in another newpaper and we end up with various media outlets all advertising different rankings, in a similar way to how websites do it at the moment.
I just read an interesting piece from over at mmapayout.com referencing the issue of 'official' rankings.
With WAMMA, it is a case of not passing the smell test. Something is definitely rotten in Denmark as Shakespeare once stated. Rob Maysey makes perhaps the best case for the chicanery afoot with their rankings in his Loads of Secrecy post over on his MMAFA blog, he does a much better job than I illuminating the troubling aspects of WAMMA’s push for rankings and sanctioning. The ranking and handing out of WAMMA belts is self-serving, and not really something that should be encouraged by the MMA media that push the poll and vote in it.
In the case of the USAToday/SBNation/BloodyElbow rankings, the rankings amalgam simply doesn’t pass the taste test. The chefs over at BloodyElbow, in their infinite wisdom, have concocted a recipe that they think is superior because they have tossed in the entire spice rack to make the entree taste better and they then say don’t blame me when folks blanch at the taste of the dish. Their consensus rankings are only as good as the sum of its parts and and the vast majority of those parts face a credibility gap.
I tend to agree with this view as both rankings systems have their merits, but also their downfalls. Not only that, there would now appear to be some competition between the 2 rankings as to which is more legitimate or accurate. So the question then is? What do we do? What is the best rankings system? How is it delivered to the masses? The article continues:
ESPN and USAToday have made their respective choices based on some nebulous (most likely business) reasoning but neither serves the end consumer, the fan, very well. The two parties are able to collaborate on something like the USA Today ESPN Coaches poll for college football, and something similar for MMA would be in order. Having the pull of both ESPN and USAToday, they should be able to assemble a who’s who of the MMA landscape to judge who the best are independent of promotion. Having a mix of the very best online and print reporters, media and high end bloggers as pollsters would be ideal. Take 25 or so people from the various mediums, here is a sampling from my eye that could be assembled (this is just one take):
Print..Neil Davidson, Mike Chiappetta, Beau Dure, Sergio Non, Ryan Hockensmith, Gareth Davies, Todd Martin, Lance Pugmire
TV..Ron Kruck, Jon Anik, Mauro Ranallo
Online News sites…. Dann Stupp, Sam Caplan, Dave Meltzer, Ben Fowlkes, Kevin Iole, Josh Gross, Jordan Breen, Jeff Sherwood, Jeff Cain, Ken Pishna, Jesse Holland
Bloggers.. Ariel Helwani, Luke Thomas, Michael David Smith, Zach Arnold, Pramit Mohaptra, That MMAPayout Guy
I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this suggestion as at face value it appears to be a reasonable suggestion. Those parties with an interest and a stake in the rankings already, continue to be represented and the wide cross section of voters would ensure the end product is viewed as unbiased and legitimate. The only addition I would make to the voting board is someone like (dare I say it) Pooh Bear from over at www.mma-elo.com who has spent countless hours and sought much feedback developing what I believe to be the best 'objective' rankings system out there. If not mma-elo then another objective type sysem should get a vote too, imo. Thoughts? Problems? Issues?
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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36 comments
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rankings are 100% the opinion of the person making the rankings. BE’s rankings are superior to me, because they include ALOT of opinions. no one should follow just one ranking system. i’ve always said i use 3, bloody elbow, sherdog, and my own personal opinion. after that, its still all speculative.
by MicahW on May 1, 2009 9:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ugh...
This discussion has been discussed through and through.
ELO systems don’t work with MMA. I’ve tried and a lot of other people have tried to objectively do so, but the problem is that it becomes subjective as you move down the line of variables and pieces of the puzzle you must put into the system. MMA-ELO doesn’t work, regardless. FightMatrix is a great system, but it’s biased to specific criteria that a lot of people wouldn’t agree with while some would agree with, same with every other Ranking system on the planet.
ELO systems have to have variables set, and that’s up to the programmer. FightMatrix uses other criteria and programming pieces to score specific matchups as better than other due to title fights, etc. It’s a nice formula, and it works for that ranking, but there will be critics and it isn’t completely objective at all. Adding in those programming tweaks are a subjective thing because the programmer would have to say “I think this should merit more weight” Just like MMA-ELO.
The biggest problem with your suggestion is that the Consensus ranking already has more objective rankings within it. FightMatrix for one, and I feel FM’s algorithm is far more superior to MMA ELO.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 1, 2009 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When you say mma-elo ‘doesnt work’, what do you mean exactly? The only variables I know of that exist are those that alter how significant an effect a win or a loss is for particular fighters. I like it as it gives a non-emotional ranking based purely on results, not potential, hype and expectation. Is it perfect? No. Many would argue that potential should be included when ranking, amongst other criticisms. Anyways, that wasnt the point of this post. I just used mma-elo as an example of 1 form of ‘objective style’ ranking system that I would like to see incorporated into the rankings ‘team’ suggested by mmapayout. It would only represent 1 vote out of 15 or so.
The bigger picture I was trying to get to was should every Tom, Dick and Harry publish their rankings in print and on TV as has been the case on the web or should the industry somehow attempt to create 1 set of universally recognized rankings? Is that a good thing? Is it possible? How could it be done?
I dunno, I guess I just look at tennis rankings as an example of rankings working well. The number 1 tennis player is universally acknowledged as are players all the way into the 100’s. There arent other tennis organisations or sub-groups out there releasing their own rankings claiming theirs to be a more accurate representation. Thats not a dig at BE or a dig at Wamma, but I would just prefer to avoid seeing many different outlets, potentially pushing their own agendas releasing their rankings through the highest profile media outlets available to them. That just gets confusing and should be avoided if possible, imo.
by GeeDub on May 1, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you have an answer to the appeal to authority argument?
Because what you’re advocating is just a celebrities only version of the Consensus Rankings and you’ve yet to tell us how including say, Sam Caplan and not Kelvin Hunt makes the rankings better.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 1, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not suggesting that the ‘celebrities only’ rankings would be any more valid than the consensus rankings, Wammas rankings or anybody elses rankings. I’d just like to see one set of rankings accepted by the majority. If Wamma disappeared and the consensus rankings were universally accepted, that would be fine coz whatever the rankings are, as long as they are within the realm of reason, there is gonna be conjecture and discussion. Getting to that point where 1 set of accepted rankings exists is the challenge. You guys arent gonna abandon the consensus rankings as you feel they are the best and have put lots of effort into them and likewise, other groups arent gonna abandon their efforts.
So, the various groups are going to continue to publicize their respective rankings unless some kind of collective arrangement takes place with all parties having a voice, as suggested in the mmapayout piece.
by GeeDub on May 1, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
get on board
if you want one set of rankings get behind the USAT/SBN Consensus rankings. That’s where shit is going these days.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 1, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
joins the consensus rankings conga line
waves to the wamma/espn conga line in the distance
by GeeDub on May 1, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm waving at the ESPN/WAMMA conga line, it's with one finger.
by subo on May 1, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s not my finger I’m waving at them…
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by themachiavellian on May 1, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There’s never going to be an arrangement like that that works.
Look at college football (or boxing). How many “official” rankings are there in those sports. If one of those types of ranking committees eventually gets set up, it isn’t going to take much for a different group of “experts” to make up their own “official” rankings.
by Phildo on May 4, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its certainly a big ask, I agree, and so did Joyner. But if you could potentially get the most knowledgable / influential / public figures to collectively get behind a set of rankings that is accepted as being reasonable and without significant collective bias, it would be hard for another set of rankings to challenge that legitimacy. Right now, Wammas rankings alone dont have enough respect for them to hold that unchallenged #1 spot which is why USAT are happy to promote the BE rankings. Similarly, the BE rankings arent held to be the gold standard rankings by everybody either.
So we either accept that rankings are forever going to be flawed like boxing, or try and implement something that more resembles tennis rankings before things get too ugly.
by GeeDub on May 4, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tennis rankings aren’t a good example.
Tennis rankings are mostly number based, and it’s easier for them to work, because tennis players play each other all the time, and there are at least 4 tournaments a year where all the top ranked players are competing in the same tournament.
The comparable examples are boxing and college football (to a lesser extent). All it’s going to take is for one of the experts in your panel to disagree, or a strong sentiment to build up for another fighter to come along,and then you’ll have another set of rankings.
by Phildo on May 4, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand there are far more tennis matches from which to determine rankings. I was using the universal acceptance of tennis rankings as an ideal. I mean, right now, you could make a case that Murray should be ranked above Djokavic of Tsonga should be ranked higher than 9, but nobody would listen to you as the ATP rankings are unwaiveringly accepted by all.
Tennis rankings are no more objective than the mma-elo rankings and contain just as many flaws. Its just that everybody has accepted the method they use to rank players. In contrast, as the recent mmapayout.com article proves, in mma, everybody has their opinion on what is best still and everybody wants to stand out from the crowd and proclaim that their method is the best, most accurate, most objective, least biased……etc. The funny part to me, is that for all the talk, most rankings are reasonably similar.
In my personal little utopian world, I’d like to see a completely new system developed by all the major mma players that awards and deducts points in a quantifiable system that is both transparent and predictable. So you would know before a fight what effect on rankings the potential outcomes would have. ie. If Kflo gets a decision win over BJ, BJ remains #1 but if Kflo submits or (t)KOs BJ, Florian moves to #1.
Sadly, I dont think those in a position to implement my little system have either the desire or the ability to do so.
by GeeDub on May 4, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to let this go, but I saw this on espn.com and had to post it
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=4135094
no matter what system you come up with, it’s not going to please everyone, there’s no perfect system, there will never be a perfect system, there’s no use getting worked up about it in the meantime.
by Phildo on May 4, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice find. You’ll never please everyone, but Golf, Tennis, Squash, Surfing……etc all have well established world rankings and sure please a much larger percentage of their fanbase than MMA. Perhaps MMA should take a leaf out of their books…….after all this isnt the first time a sport has come up with rankings and the bulk of rankings are based on some form of transparent system where points are awarded based on performance.
by GeeDub on May 5, 2009 3:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My rankings are better :)
http://www.mmaforreal.com
by Kelvin Hunt on May 1, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Altering the variables will only effect things like the ‘Travis Fulton" effect and such. There are so many other variables and functionality that can be put into the system that would be needed in order to alter the rankings to be relevant. If you simply use a straight ELO system with variable tweaking, you won’t come out with a legitimate ranking. MMA ELO has to use some sort of functionality like that as does FightMatrix, and that makes it much more subjective than objective because it’s up to the programmer and the criteria. Sure, it’s more objective than most, but it isn’t fully objective. No ranking will ever be that way. Even the BCS system has things built into it that help specific teams out per the request of the people in charge because they feel one piece of criteria is weighted more than another. Other people will say it doesn’t. It’s a constant argument, and ELO in MMA has that argument as well.
Consensus Rankings, in my mind, get the overall view of the landscape and do the rankings well. Using credible sources of sites that aren’t completely moronic in their ranking criteria is the basis. If BE used every single site out there with rankings, even little sites with no relevance that simply rank people based on personal bias, then yes… it would be skewed, but the current system is by no means skewed in my mind.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 1, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t Rob Joyner “robnashville” on here for a while? Wonder what soured him on BE.
by Chris Nelson on May 1, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The appeal to authority argument
Joyner predicts that I’d go after him for using an appeal to authority fallacy and he is correct. Just because he admits to making a massive mistake in reasoning doesn’t mean that’s not a fault with his argument.
Here’s the thing, the meta-rankings idea came from my work in politics. In the last couple of political cycles its been shown that an average of credible polls is more accurate than any single poll regardless of methodology.
Therefore we thought it would be fun and informative to compile the rankings of as many credible sources as we could find and produce a consensus rankings system.
The biggest problem with Joyner’s proposal is that doing rankings well takes a lot of thought and work and celebrity rankers are the least likely to have the time to really do quality rankings.
The second problem with an “insider” rankings panel is that the rankers are inevitably going to be very aware of the business and politcial implications of their rankings. People looking to get in good with Zuffa will puff up UFC fighters, those on the outs with Zuffa will seek to damage the credibility of their fighters. This already happens quite a bit (see WAMMA and MMA Weekly).
Rankings compiled by fans who don’t have an axe to grind and who have the time to really focus on doing the rankings are just as accurate if not more accurate than those done by fight insiders who have neither the time to be thorough nor any interest in being objective.
"the spirit of your average dumbass with more overblown rhetoric" OR "the self-appointed savior of MMA"
by Kid Nate on May 1, 2009 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Agree 100%. Looking for people who are “unbiased” to form a rankings panel is a fool’s errand. You cancel out bias by getting more data and weighting it, not by looking for the “good” data. Also, having experts is great, but expertise can sometimes lead you astray. The Shamrock-Diaz fight is a classic example. All of the experts picked Shamrock, but a casual fan with access to the fightfinder and wikipedia would have seen who they’ve actually beaten during the last 5 years and picked Diaz. For example, the expert remembers Baroni being a feared fighter and knocking out Dave Mene and thinks that was a significant win for Shamrock, the fan who has never seen Baroni fight looks at the fight finder and realizes that he only has a 33% chance of winning when he fights someone with a winning record, and even then it is only when he is able to KO them in the first round. I’m not saying expertise isn’t extremely important to analyzing the sport, but it doesn’t deserve our blind trust.
Here is an excerpt on the subject from an interview of Malcolm Gladwell by Bill Simmons:
Gladwell: Here’s the real question. If I was GM of the Knicks, would I be doing a better job of managing the team than Thomas? I believe, somewhat immodestly, that the answer is yes. And I say this even though it is abundantly clear that Thomas knows several thousand times more about basketball than I do. I’ve never picked up a basketball. I couldn’t diagram a play to save my life. I would put my level of basketball knowledge, among hard core fans, in the 25th percentile.
So why do I think I would be better? There’s a famous experiment done by a wonderful psychologist at Columbia University named Dan Goldstein. He goes to a class of American college students and asks them which city they think is bigger — San Antonio or San Diego. The students are divided. Then he goes to an equivalent class of German college students and asks the same question. This time the class votes overwhelmingly for San Diego. The right answer? San Diego. So the Germans are smarter, at least on this question, than the American kids. But that’s not because they know more about American geography. It’s because they know less. They’ve never heard of San Antonio. But they’ve heard of San Diego and using only that rule of thumb, they figure San Diego must be bigger. The American students know way more. They know all about San Antonio. They know it’s in Texas and that Texas is booming. They know it has a pro basketball team, so it must be a pretty big market. Some of them may have been in San Antonio and taken forever to drive from one side of town to another — and that, and a thousand other stray facts about Texas and San Antonio, have the effect of muddling their judgment and preventing them from getting the right answer.
…
By the way, while we’re on this topic, let’s play a real world application of this. Let’s say I’m so dumb about basketball that all I know is that the best college programs in the country are Duke and UConn, and so as a GM my rule is only draft and/or trade for the first and second team players, in any given year, from those two schools. So I fire all my scouts. I disband my front office, and basically say that I cede my basketball judgment to Jim Calhoun and Mike K. What’s my team? It’s some combination of Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, Rip Hamilton, Corey Maggette, Jay Williams, Caron Butler, Donyell Marshall and Grant Hill — which is a really wonderful team. Now, of course, in the real world I couldn’t get all those people, because lots of them were really high draft picks. But let’s say I got Brand in a trade, after Chicago soured on him, and I was lucky enough to be in the lottery for Okafor. Maggette was a 13; Hamilton and Deng were 7s; and Butler was a 10 — so at least some of them are doable, particularly since in off-years for Duke and UConn I can trade down and stockpile picks. Battier I wine and dine in the free agent market, because who wants to be stuck in Memphis? Ditto for Gordon, who, it seems, Chicago is thinking of moving anyway. Is that the best team in the league? No. It is better than the Knicks? Absolutely. The point is that clinging to a very simple rule of thumb here — that doesn’t require knowing much about basketball — can leave you looking pretty smart.
by Jahbulon on May 1, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Your main argument about conflict of interest of “celebrity” rankers is the most important one. Are we going to have Pat Militech ranking? Sure he’s an expert, but is there anyone more laughably biased?
A lot of the “experts” also really don’t know much more than anyone else. See: Sam Caplan calling Kimbo Slice’s hands “world class.”
by Michael Rome on May 1, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Additionally, just looking at his ideal list of names for rankings, it’s hard not to die laughing. The exceptionally credible guys on the list are Helwani, Meltzer, Luke, Holland, Gross, Mauro, Chiapetta, and Martin.
Is there any reason at all to have Ron Kruck on that list besides the fact that HDNet mentions MMA Payout on Inside MMA? I like Ryan Hockensmith, but he’s written columns insisting Brock Lesnar is better than Fedor.
There are some smart people on that list, and even the ones besides the guys I listed know a good amount about the sport. But there’s nothing special about them. What we have here is more like the equivalent of the realclearpolitics average.
by Michael Rome on May 1, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would have been better had he included Mike Straka. Ron Kruck made me chuckle, and there is no way he should be on that list by any means.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 1, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better = more laughable.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 1, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a huge fan...
of the idea that no one can really argue that the meta’s reflect the general feelings of the MMA fanbase but still insist that there must be something horribly wrong with them. Yes, sometimes someone thinks that the #8 guy is better than the #4 guy…but that’s the thing with rankings. A) they’re subjective and B) taking a large sample of a diverse group of them and compiling tat data will provide the most realistic picture.
It seems like people get hung up on the fact that they don’t regularly read a few of the sites included as somehow meaning that their rankings aren’t “credible” enough. But I’m sorry, rankings are far from a perfect science, and if I’m supposed to believe that because site a is read more than site b it instantly makes them more credible I can’t get on board with that.
MMAWeekly is one of the more widely read sites on the internet, and I haven’t agreed with their rankings for YEARS now. But I’m sure they’re more “credible” in most peoples eyes than some of the other sites we use. But by using a diverse group the major outliers are minimized while still being represented by appropriate weight as they do reflect the feelings of some portion of the MMA fanbase.
The last point I’d like to make is that no fighter is making any money off of our rankings. We’re not crowning champions, we’re not organizing fights. I seriously do wonder if there is something as simple as jealousy every time someone gets in a tizzy (as my grandma would say) over them. To act so upset makes so little sense to me. In the end rankings are for fun. The idea that someone may be over ranking Aoki isn’t taking money out of anyone’s pocket. It’s just such a strange thing to me that people have to continually go after the consensus rankings like we’re trying to corrupt the sport by putting together a list that represents the diverse views of the MMA community.
Actually, one more point…it’s not like we include any site that is willing to put out rankings. We make a decision if we find a site credible enough, but we’re not going to eliminate sites that we think make the grade because we don’t agree with their rankings. That would be manipulation of the data…which is what we’re not trying to do.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on May 1, 2009 11:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rankings in MMA are for entertainment value only. No one except for WAMMA actually expects them to affect matchmaking for fighter contracts they are just for fan entertainment and getting a overview of which guys stand where. I wouldn’t crown a NCAA football champion using the BE style rankings but for telling which guys the MMA media think stand where it works very well. What really gets me is all the complaining that goes on about them, people really take this crap seriously for some reason. I would expect WAMMA to take it seriously they are actually trying to make a buck off of it but why do other sites and fans take rankings so seriously?
by who me on May 1, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The last point I’d like to make is that no fighter is making any money off of our rankings.
Well fuck, that sounds like a good start for objectivity to me.
by subo on May 1, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having a mix of the very best online and print reporters, media and high end bloggers as pollsters would be ideal. Take 25 or so people from the various mediums, here is a sampling from my eye that could be assembled (this is just one take):
Print..Neil Davidson, Mike Chiappetta, Beau Dure, Sergio Non, Ryan Hockensmith, Gareth Davies, Todd Martin, Lance Pugmire
TV..Ron Kruck, Jon Anik, Mauro Ranallo
Online News sites…. Dann Stupp, Sam Caplan, Dave Meltzer, Ben Fowlkes, Kevin Iole, Josh Gross, Jordan Breen, Jeff Sherwood, Jeff Cain, Ken Pishna, Jesse Holland
Bloggers.. Ariel Helwani, Luke Thomas, Michael David Smith, Zach Arnold, Pramit Mohaptra, That MMAPayout Guy
How is this different from taking rankings off specific people’s sites and developing a composite? Heck how is this different from what WAMMA does for that matter? It sounds like it’s not about the system for this guy it’s about the people doing the rankings and that is just as subjective of a subject as the rankings themselves.
by who me on May 1, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It isn’t different at all. It basically putting all the credibility in the people instead of a whole site.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on May 1, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless I misunderstood something, this guy is blaming BE for using non-credible single rankings in the meta-rankings system – and then is proposing a new ‘commission’ for what would only amount to yet another set of subjective rankings.
I’m not qualified to say a damn thing about most of the rankings sets out there, but I don’t see how a meta-rankings system of several such sets could be worse than any one such set – never mind who is making those rankings. Instead of getting an x number of opinions, the meta-rankings take into account y (number of ranking lists) times x opinions.
If someone does not like the results, well, tough cookies.
by lhasafi on May 1, 2009 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The more imput the smoother the edges. Statistically speaking the more data the better the results, of course a statistical analysis of people’s opinion is still completly subjective.
by who me on May 1, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew there’d be large walls of text in this story.
Now my eyes hurt. THANKS ALOT, GUYS!!!
:P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 1, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’ve been making efforts to be a lot more brief lately. The quality commentators that now speak as I do save me a lot of time, which I largely use to get drunk and go to Nuggets games. It’s great.
by subo on May 1, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1 for you my good man! :)
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on May 1, 2009 4:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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