Nick Diaz Makes Mockery of CSAC Drug Testing Procedures
by Michael Rome on Apr 9, 2009 1:48 PM EDT
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Besides amusement, what else is there to take away from Nick Diaz's recent statement that he smokes weed before every fight? Here he is:
"I can pass a drug test in eight days with herbal cleansers. I drink 10 pounds of water and sweat out 10 pounds of water every day. I'll be fine."
One of the dirty secrets in MMA (and every other professional sport) is the widespread use of performance enhancing drugs. Many fight camps have their own testing labs on payroll, and while this seems like a great thing from the outside, it's also a conduit to cycling off the drugs expertly.
The current drug testing system does not prevent the use of performance enhancers. It only motivates fighters to learn the way to cycle off in time to pass, and to pay more to get the newest drugs that are just as good but aren't on the banned list yet. Given CSAC's budget, the top fighters will always have the money to stay ahead of the curve in this regard. The rules as they stand overwhelmingly favor rich fighters over poor, and fighters in big camps over fighters in smaller camps. All for what, so we can delude ourselves into believing our sport is clean?
To my mind marijuana is not a performance enhancing drug, but it's still a banned substance, and it clearly did not take a genius to figure out a way around the testing.
The drug testing system, not unlike the war on drugs generally, is in need of serious reform. How long will we delude ourselves? Nick Diaz is coming out and telling us he will break the rules and get away with it. How can a system be remotely legitimate if he does?
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well, they should certainly take weed off of the list of banned substances for starters. However, testing for steriods should be done on a random basis for all fighters whether or not they have a fight coming up. If you know when you are going to be tested then it obviously makes it a whole lot easier to cheat the system.
So they are subjected to random state drug tests at all points in their life just because they are fighters, regardless of whether they have fights coming up? Why not install a camera system in gyms?
Yes
Why not?
Cyclists are randomly tested year round, regardless of where in the world they’re training. It’s not uncommon for them to be tested when they go on vacation, are visiting friends, or just got home from a training ride.
Many cyclists may not like it, but they understand it’s part of their job.
It’s obvious that fighters are using steroids and other banned substances, and clearly getting away with it. How would you cycle off steroids – or use masking agents – if someone from NSAC randomly stopped by the gym?
(But I digress, as I don’t think marijuana should be tested for in the first place.)
by Michael Hatamoto on Apr 9, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, tennis players,
NFL, MLB guys are tested randomly throughout the year. Even in the offseason.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Well NFL and MLB guys are employees rather than independent contractors and their testing is covered as part of the collective bargaining agreements.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
Very true,
I just meant that as an example of how other high level athletes are tested regularly and it is accepted.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
They can make it part of the requirement for getting a fighter’s license. Like the way certain implied consent laws involving driver’s licenses and DUI testing.
I would have no problem if they said, to get this license, you need to agree to random testing all year. That’s the way it works in cycling
this is the way to do it
The state athletic commissions can force them to agree to random drug tests or I think it would be easier for the MMA organizations (UFC, Affliction, Strikeforce, etc) to put random drug tests in the contracts of their fighters. This would force them to be subject to random tests through the length of their contract. . . . . .This is assuming that the organizations dont want their fighters on roids (which Im not so sure about).
Weed isnt a performance enhancing drug for anything except eating contests and video games. Should not be on banned list. If Diaz wants to smoke while he is walking down the runway to the ring Im sure Shamrock wont have a problem with that.
I’ll be rooting for Diaz though
by GroundNPound561 on Apr 10, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions
And don’t even mention the UFC doing this to Dana White, or else, he’ll attack you with disparaging remarks on the Underground.
I don’t have a problem with fighters being tested all year round while they’re fighting. I just don’t think it’s a reality due to limited resources.
Sadly, it definitely wouldn’t be feasible for the athletic commissions to do it.
Would it be NSAC only? What about other state athletic commissions? Just flying them to U.S.-based fighters would be costly, let alone the fact they’d have to go to Brazil, Japan, eastern Europe, etc. etc.
by Michael Hatamoto on Apr 9, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Random state drug tests as a condition of being licensed to fight in the state isn’t that ridiculous.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
no way should weed be on the banned list of substances…if you were high during a fight it would not help you at all…i smoke a lot of weed but i dont smoke before work for the exact same reason…id work like shit and possibly get hurt….
I thinks its more of do you want someone like Diaz to be a role model for little kids? We would have a whole generation of little Nicks. My brother was always better than me in school, then started smoking WAY too much pot. He struggled to finish hs, quit all his sports while I went on and graduated college cum laude, and I CAN FIND MY KEYS! haha.
I think it should be on there for the opposite reason.
if you did get hurt in that fight, people would go after the commission for letting you fight while impaired, just like they go after the bartender if you drive home drunk. It’s the same thing.
I’ve never really bought the performance enhancing aspect of the weed.
Personally I eat a yard of cereal every day.
by Michael Rome on Apr 9, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m in Canada, so I drink kilograms of beer, but I can only manage a half a meter of cereal.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 9, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Pounds of water is something reasonable for someone who cuts weight (or does backpacking for that matter)
Especially if it is being done to cleanse the system for something around the time of a weigh in, it would be important to know how much water weight you have to put on/sweat off in order to make sure you piss clean and make weight.
Yea, it does make plenty of sense from a weight cutting perspective, I couldn’t resist the yard joke.
no problem with the yard joke, just that if the first post is sarcasm, my detector is broken, it was in the red zone for your comment tho.
yeah, totally just giving him a hard time.
i’ve heard it used in that context before, just funny after that quote from his yesterday about not doing his homework in high school, cus he “didn’t want to”.
Weed should absolutely be on the banned substance list
its an illegal drug. All illegal drugs should be on the list regardless of their impact on a fighter’s ability to compete.
Amazing how much drama is placed a fighter’s post victory celebration…but the response to a fighter flaunting the fact that be breaks the law prior to ever fight and has a system to avoid being caught should be to simply change the rules to make his law breaking less of an issue? Serious deranged.
Yet another reason to serious hate Nick Diaz.
weed is becoming legal
lots of states have or have started to decriminalize the use of weed and even more have begun using it for medical purposes…even in my backwoods state the vote only lost by 1%. time to end the prohibition!!!! oh wait isnt this the high times forums??? maybe i should put the bong down
It’s legality/illegality is irrelevant to it being on a athletic commissions banned substance list, hell many steroids are legal with a doctor’s prescription but that doesn’t mean they have a place in the sport. Pot isn’t on the banned substance list because it’s illegal it’s because it can have an effect on the fight (positive or negative isn’t as much of an issue is that it can). No one ever goes to jail for failing a banned substance list test.
Diaz has a medical marijuana card in Cali. He is breaking no laws there. Care to revise your argument?
by thepenismightier on Apr 9, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of California law it’s still a federal offense, your medical marijuana card is worthless if the feds come calling, even in Cali. Of course that is irrelevant to the banned substance list, most of the stuff on it can be had with a prescription but that doesn’t mean that it’s ok to use before a fight.
Good point
If he does have a medical card then he is breaking no laws state laws. The argument could still be made for federal laws though.
Since when is the CSAC a federal committee? It’s California. The medical marijuana card should be valid there.
"Negative, negative. I gotta stay lean and lightning and ready to fight." Capt. H.M. Murdock
CSAC doesn’t give a rats ass about valid prescriptions if it’s on the banned substance list it is on the banned substance list. You can get a prescription for a lot of steroids and pain killers but that still doesn’t mean that the athletic commissions will let you use them. Legal or illegal and being on a list of things you can’t take before a licensed MMA fight is two completly separate issues. Heck they recently had a guy pulled from a fight for a perfectly legal Attention Deficit medication that he had a valid prescription for because it’s on the list of things you can’t have in your system before a fight.
The only reason the federal law came into this is to point out that marijuana being “legal” is a joke, even if a state says it is ok you can still go to jail for having it. You can test positive for every illegal drug in the world before a fight and you still won’t do jail time because the Athletic Commissions aren’t about criminal offenses they are about regulating a sport. Pot isn’t on the banned substance list because it’s against the law it’s on there because they don’t want guys fighting stoned just like they don’t want guys in the cage hopped up on pain pills and muscle relaxers.
Not in the least, care to provide proof that he has the card?
Also, care to go into what the medical situation is that gets him that card, but somehow doesn’t get him disqualified from fighting?
No proof, just an article.
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/elitexc-csac-at-odds-over-diaz-removal-12007
The issue, as described to him by Garcia, said Shaw, was Diaz’s prescription for medical marijuana, which is legal in California based on the Compassionate Use Act of 1996.
“He’s got a medical marijuana card,” confirmed Diaz’s manager Cesar Gracie (Pictures), who mentioned Attention Deficit Disorder as the cause for the prescription.
by thepenismightier on Apr 9, 2009 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Your initial argument was that all illegal drugs should be on the banned list regardless of their impact, and that Nick Diaz should be hated for his law-breaking.
Again, since you’ve now discovered that he is breaking no laws, do you care you revise your initial argument?
by thepenismightier on Apr 10, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Unless Nick Diaz is only going to fight in California, no.
And even then, I think he proves that the medical marijuana is a joke for most cases.
Addtionally, there is the federal aspect that so, so many people have pointed out.
I wonder how long it took Nick to develop ADD after he found out that Cali was handing out cards for it…
Why should all illegal drugs be on the banned substance list? That should only be the case if the purpose of those two lists are exactly the same.
"Japan is half-Machida" - iiowyn
You’re obviously unfamiliar with the complex “the law is the law is the law” argument….
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 9, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
They should just pay Nick to beat the drug tests infront of the NSAC and CSAC and then study his methodology.
If Nick Diaz can do it, then he clearly is not the only guy doing it. He is just the only one honest enough to not care what they think about it and flaunting it in their face.
He’s not beating the test he is clearing his system, that is complying with the test. Using a masking agent so he could fight stoned would be beating the test, stopping smoking a couple of weeks out and clearing it out of your system so there is no chance of it having an effect on the fight is the responible thing to do. This is a completly different issue than steroids because the two have a different effect on the athletes before a fight, pot like any other pain killer is a issue if it is in your system during a fight, steroids are a issue for a fight even if you haven’t taken them for months.
by who me on Apr 9, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well...
He is cleaning his system out, but the water more or less just keeps him hydrated… THC is fat soluble, and his thin frame probably doesn’t hold onto it long, especially since he is always competing in decathlons (or triathlons or something). Heavy exercise makes you sweat some of it out, lots of water makes you piss some of it out, after you burned fat from the exercise… In fact slender people, with high metabolism, who eat a healthy diet can get the THC out of their system fairly fast… even a habitual smoker such as diaz.
To be honest I don’t care if Nick smokes and I don’t care about how he gets it out of his system as long as he takes responsiblity and brings himself into compliance. I would have a problem if he was using a masking agent but quiting a couple of weeks before a fight and getting it out of his system is fine by me.
There is a reason for pot to be on the banned substance list but I don’t see this as Diaz dodging the rules if he is getting it out of his system before the fight. Things like pot aren’t like things like steroids in their effect and the problem with pot is having it in your system during the fight not that he smoked a month before a fight. The legal issues surrounding Nick’s recreational drug of choice are different than the athletic commission banned substance list issues involved, if he doesn’t have it in his system before a fight then that should be ok.
Random steroid testing would be another topic because steroids give a fighter a advantage in training for the fight even if the fighter is clean come fight time.
Of course, just raising the advantage to the rich fighters that pay for masking agents that are more sophisticated than anything the athletic commissions have.
People don’t see the budgetary concerns, but with revenue the way it is now there’s a reason the amount of pre-fight testing has declined. These agencies have no cash.
The same argument could be made if there was no testing, it would just lower the bar. Because steroids aren’t free.
Sure, steroids are cheaper than the designer steroids/masking agents that people use now to beat the tests, but if you remove the testing, you’ll run into the same problem with the gap between the people that can afford the steroids and those who can’t.
Oh the budget issues are a real issue, that’s why other states only do random testing on a card. We know that people know how to cycle this stuff and that there are always new things coming out to get around the test it’s that I just don’t see Nick Diaz clearing his system of pot as falling into that catagory of problems. Hey I think smoking pot is a bit silly and that Nick DIaz is nuts but him clearing his system isn’t him flaunting the law it’s him coming into compliance. That is just a different issue than steroids.
I do the same thing
The herbal cleanser works for me every time. At my old job we would have random drug tests, but since our foreman had a tight relationship with us he’d let us know 2 hrs before. We all carried a “Carbo q” in our cars, take it an hour and a half before then drink plenty of water. WAAAALAAAAAA!
Anyway, weed isn’t a big deal. I’m sure that’s why he just put it out there like that. Oh, and of course because he’s a bad ass like that :)
I have nothing to hide, but I can’t ever foresee working at a place that did random drug tests. Trust me or don’t keep me employed.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 9, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like a good mantra for keeping unemployeed.
I can’t remember the last time I had a job where they didn’t do drug testing, of course depending on the job I would be the person responsible for implementing the testing and tracking the results.
I’m a research, analyst and academic, and I make a good living. I’ve never been asked to do a drug test, and I’ve worked for colleges, universities, and government over the last few years. Just because I don’t want to consent to have my bodily fluids randomly become the property of my employer hardly means I’m unemployed.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 9, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
It would mean that for a lot of people though. Just because your specific field has alowed you to avoid it so far doesn’t mean that that philosopy would work for other people or that you won’t end up being asked to test in the future (particularly for government jobs). Heck in lots of places a failure to test is considered an admission of guilt and those people lose their jobs (or don’t get hired to start with). My 17 year old daughter had to drug test just to get a part time job checking people out at a grocery store, testing is getting more common not less.
I understand that, but I disagree with the principle. Yes, I have the luxury of being able to stand on that principle, but I also chose a career path that would allow me to stand on principles like that because it’s important to me.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 9, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s saying that he stops 10 days before. So what then? Its pot. He’s not high during the event or with in 10 days of it, so it doesn’t matter. Its not like he’s smoking pot and getting ripped from it or something like that. In all honesty he probably isn’t as clear headed in general, compared to what he would be if he didn’t smoke at all.
If you think about it
If the Diaz bros wouldn’t be such pot heads they would have full focus and be even more awesome fighters.
That’s just, like, your opinion, man.
by thepenismightier on Apr 9, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yep Nick is coming into compliance with the banned substance list. What the effect is on him in general is up for debate but if he is clearing his system before a fight then we can be pretty sure that he won’t be high during the fight and that is the real issue with pot on the athletic commission banned substance list.
by who me on Apr 9, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
If he does then he is going to get caught, well I guess that’s obvious being as they have caught him. He used to get away with it when he was fighting in Vegas because they only do random testing before and after (Nevada doesn’t test every fighters on a card just title fights and a random sampling of fighters on the card). He isn’t saying he does that now and he knows that CSAC test every fighter on the card. What he got away with in 2006 isn’t something he can get away with now and he knows that.
Why don't they give fighters a breathalyzer then?
Fighters could be drunk during the fight. Let’s spend money on their safety.
/\ that was to who me's statement
"It's like a flying knuckle sandwich." --Rogan
"And many men have eaten it." -- Goldy
this story is from the L.A. Times. definetly not a good message. i don’t see many talking about the potential health risks involved with long term marijuana use. i’m no expert. and maybe someone can correct me, but doesn’t 1 joint equal i pack of cigarettes tar wise. if a top fighter was spotted smoking a marlboro, even though legal and not on the banned list, wouldn’t he look pretty silly and get bagged on.
Considering Nick runs triathalons I don’t think it is affecting him very much.
I’ve never seen someone who smokes cigarettes run a triathalon.
how many triathalons do you watch? maybee he could run one better smoke free.
by bdw on Apr 9, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh. I’m not entirely sure. He obviously places well in the triathlons despite being a major stoner. It’s unlikely higher-level triathletes smoke cigarettes, but they could easily get away with ingesting THC.
Besides that, maybe he uses marijuana to help kill muscle pain after he’s done working out? Nothing better than going for a long bike ride, coming home to eat and smoke a bit. :)
by Michael Hatamoto on Apr 9, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m not passing judgement, i don’t use, i think it should be legalized and i think alcohol is a much more dangerous drug than pot, but most people who “use” pot on a regular basis dont ingest it, they smoke it. and belive me, i know people! to each his own. as long as a person can take care of his business, smoke away, but a pro athelete should think twice about using it. nicks perfromance in the cage has dropped off dramaticaly since the gomi fight imo, so….
by bdw on Apr 9, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
It depends but yes smoking anything is a poor idea from a health standpoint. Would if make any difference if Nick made cookies with it instead of smoking it though?
brownies? i dont know the question to that either, but i do know that people who genrally abuse pot, dont usually ingest it.
by bdw on Apr 9, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You haven’t met too many BC hippies, then.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 9, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I've seen statements...
that marijuana has 3 times the carcinogens as tobacco… HOWEVER that is slick wording (as far as I remember researching)…. Marijuana as a plant, has 3 times more carcinogens of the tobacco PLANT… not the shit thats in cigarettes, which has chemicals upon chemicals in it.
It depends on the pot and what is put in the bag(there are no regulations on what the neighborhood drug dealer puts in his product), pot plants are all different as is the method of smoking. Of course carinogens aren’t the only bad thing, cancer is just on of the many health problems smoking can cause. I can pretty much guarantee you that smoking anything is bad for your body, heck just lighting the paper with nothing inside and taking that into your lungs is bad for you. People are going to smoke pot but that doesn’t mean that they should fool themselves about what they are doing.
:-)
I was out of town for the day.
I’ll just go with Legalize It.
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 10, 2009 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Obviously...
In almost every job that requires drug testing, this is a common thing that happens. I know people that do these same techniques, cleansers, intaking B12, all sorts of crazy shit to clear themselves. And it works…
You can’t combat this. There is no way to combat it for marijuana use. As long as there are ways around it, just take fucking WEED off the banned list. It’s ridiculous. Nobody cares.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
Oh I don’t think it would be a good idea at all to let someone who is stoned in the cage (for a number of reasons). Smoking in his free time is different than smoking before a fight, I actually think Nick is doing the responsible thing in quiting smoking and clearing his system before his fight because that brings him into compliance and makes sure there is no doubt that he isn’t under the influence while in the cage. Guys who smoke know they have to be clean for a fight, it’s just stupid that they don’t take responsiblity for that but the athletic commission isn’t telling them they can’t smoke pot in their free time.
If the commission is testing him before and after, then that should continue. Obviously, it’ll keep the whole enhancing part of the equation at bay. If that’s going to continue, then ok. Continue the ban, and make these guys cleanse their systems.
Editor-in-chief of MMA-Analyst.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 9, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
So what!?!
The fact that he’s not fighting high on drugs means the system works.
The fact that guys are not fighting while shot up with steroid means the system works.
Just because you can’t catch the cheaters 100% of the time doesn’t mean the system doesn’t work. Should we abolish our law enforcement system because we can’t catch all speeders/murderers/rapists 100% of the time? Sure, some guys may use PEDS to help them train, but at most they have a better healing/training regiment. They still have to show up and fight. The current system levels the playing field as much as possible and that’s all we can ask for. It is also a system of deterrents.
As much as possible?
Add blood testing and random tests throughout the year, and I am sure that would lever things a whole lot more.
Their drug testing procedures are worthy of mockery.
Besides, this is no less a mockery of their drug testing as cutting is a mockery of their weigh-in procedures.
by George Lucas on Apr 9, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I want to quickly address the idea that cycling off brings you into compliance. This is self-evidently true, but only makes a further mockery of the system.
Contrary to popular belief, steroids do not turn you into Hulk Hogan if you take them Saturday morning for your fight Saturday night. The vast majority of the benefit is that it allows you to train hard consistently for a number of hours longer than people without the steroids can. Whereas other bodies may break down with a training camp longer than 10 weeks, someone on roids could probably go strong through a training camp of well over that, and not have to worry about the concept of overtraining.
If our goal is just to stop it that night, it is an absurd waste of time, and it really is for the sole purpose of deluding ourselves into thinking our sport is clean. The vast majority of the benefit is in getting to train most of the year on them, and then cycling off at the end to avoid getting caught gives you almost all of the benefit. Add in a masking agent just to cover your bases, and you get everything you need. That is an absurd system.
Nick isn’t cycling off of steroids he is getting a banned pain killer out of his system well before a fight happens. Diaz uses pot for the same reason Ryan Jensen uses Adderall (allegedly, who knows with Nick Diaz but that is what his medical marijuana card is for). If Ryan Jensen hadn’t recently used Adderall then he would of been allowed to fight. Does anyone care if a fighter takes a Lortab or a Xanax a month before a fight?
Pot should be on the banned substance list but not for the same reason as steroids because it has a different effect in terms of the sport, smoking pot a month before a fight and taking steroids in training a month before a fight are completly separate subjects because they have different effects. They test for marijuana specifically because they don’t want a fighter high during the fight thus prefight testing does work there, for steroids you about have to have surprise random testing to be sure. I don’t think anyone here is for cycling of steroids it’s just that Nick Diaz quote wasn’t about steroids.
by who me on Apr 9, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But you’re moving the goalposts. You said that cycling off brings him into compliance, which means cycling off steroids brings you into compliance by the same standard.
The real reason weed is banned is the insane anti-drug culture, not because of any harm. There are all sorts of drugs banned on the list that you can achieve the equivalent of not using banned substances, saying it’s for safety is an after the fact justification because the real reason is bogus.
Cycling off does bring you into compliance. The fact that being in compliance doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t use performance enhancing drugs is a separate point.
Bolts from the Blue // "Game over." - Jamal Williams
Bloody Elbow // "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken
Rome, i have to disagree with you there. That would only be “moving the goal posts” if pot and steroids were banned for the same reasons, and I don’t think you’ll find anyone who thinks that they are. Also, VVRichardVV is correct.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Who cycles marijuana use? He isn’t cycling he’s doing the same thing a fighter with a prescription medicine does before a fight, he stops taking it. Does anyone care if a fighter takes a Lortab or a Xanax a month before a fight? Is pot any different? Do people care if a fighter takes steroids a month before a fight? Hell yes they do, that’s because we are talking about two completly different things with two completly different effects. It’s not moving the goalpost it’s recognizing that marijuana and steroids are two different things.
As far as why it’s on the list that’s for the same reason that people get it for medical reasons it has a real effect on the body for people in pain. Yes there are other pain killers out there but that doesn’t mean that marijuana all the sudden isn’t one of them, heck it’s a very good one.
You can't sweat out testosterone
And the testing procedures for detecting steroids is always evolving. Yes, the newest designer steroids will always be a little ahead of the curve, but then the users get caught and punished and the circle of life is renewed. At least the CSAC and NSAC and any organization that gives two shits about the health of its fighters is trying to catch the cheaters and making them go underground.
This in no way makes places that don’t test look better by comparison.
by Derek Suboticki on Apr 10, 2009 12:56 AM EDT reply actions
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