Two Years Ago Today: The Last PRIDE Show
Two years ago today Dream Stage Entertainment put on their last event PRIDE 34 at the Saitama Super Arena.
Zach Arnold has five lessons we can take from the fall of PRIDE:
1. The majority of MMA's star power in Japan is reliant on pro-wrestling. Until pro-wrestling has a UWF-type revival, MMA will not have a PRIDE-level revival.
2. The more money MMA makes in Japan, the more the yakuza wants to get involved. Without major television money, the yakuza isn't that interested in the business.
...The Shukan Gendai negative media campaign against PRIDE, linking them to organized crime, killed the company's credibility in Japan. Unlike America, shame is still a big part of the Japanese culture.
3. Most Japanese entertainment entities are very good at running business on their home turf due to their nationalistic ways, but are just as lousy about exporting their product on a global scale because their knowledge of doing business is based solely on what the Japanese want
4. As WWE proved, UFC will not be able to run big in Japan unless they run a pure Japanese-style product and Zuffa is unwilling to do this.
5. Once the MMA boom died in Japan, the business reset to pre-PRIDE levels. (K-1 is K-1, and New Japan is the dominant wrestling power. K-1 understands principle #4.)
These are some controversial assertions, I'm not sure I agree with them all but Arnold was early in predicting the downfall of DSE/PRIDE and I always listen when he talks Japanese MMA.
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Wasn't the last Pride show in Vegas?
Or was that the 2nd to last Pride show where Henderson knocked out Wanderlei?
by Gunslinger20 on Apr 8, 2009 8:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No
The last show was in Japan and had that long ceremony in the beginning.
Pride 32 & 33 were in America. Too little too late but I don’t think anything would have worked to be honest…
sigh
by banter on Apr 8, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it sucks… I really miss the Pride days
by Gunslinger20 on Apr 8, 2009 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t want to see the UFC go to a Japanese style just to make their way into that market. The Japanese Shows have a special kind of theatrics to it which makes them special. Yet they have so many issues with the way they do things. It’s more entertainment then sport to them.
by AlwaysRelaxing on Apr 8, 2009 8:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Skip Japan..
…the UFC has bigger fish to fry. South Korea is close enough and probably much more welcoming. They could do a Fight Night for the Troops in SK.
After that, head to China, a much bigger market then Japan. Granted that depends on what the government will let them do there.
by Reciprocity on Apr 8, 2009 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
People are so stuck on Japan and Asia…they ignore the fact that the European campaign has created an MMA boom in parts of Europe, and are putting on better quality events while overseas.
If the progress of the UFC and MMA as a whole continues, Japan is inevitable, but not any time soon. The idea for a Fight For the Troops in South Korea would probably be good, then see what to do from there. I would expect the philipines before S. Korea or Japan though.
by kyfm621 on Apr 8, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There was just something about Pride FC that the UFC lacks. Was it the build ups to the fights, the over the top entrances, the crazy announcers… I don’t know. Perhaps it was all of the above but I miss Pride. A lot.
by cauliflower_ears on Apr 8, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It was the crazy announcer. Lenne Hardt is the shit. She’s still around doing Dream stuff. Nobody can call a name like she can. I personally loved when she called Shogun or Wanderlei’s name. Bad. Ass. Even though her voice probably wouldn’t go well with the UFC product, I’d love to hear her scream out some of Zuffa’s fighter’s. She could always get me pumped up for fights. I remember when I’d come across some Pride fighter I had never heard of, but once she called his name, I’d be like, “I have no idea who this is, but that was cool.”
by pud333 on Apr 8, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike America, shame is still a big part of the Japanese culture.
Not sure if it was meant as a slight, or just said matter of factly, but that did amuse me.
by -Sam on Apr 8, 2009 2:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In my limited experience, it’s certainly factually true (though the wording is funny because of the backhanded “America has no shame” implication…). Though I would go on to say that shame as it is thought of in America and Japan are very different. It seems to me that shame in the North American sense is all about “Oh, what will people think of you?”, which is really contradictory to the individualistic, “LOVE ME OR HATE ME, I’M GONNA BE ME!” attitude that is also a strong part of the North American tradition. As my Japanese friends have described it, shame in Japan is associated with an almost-material loss of face. It’s not just about what others will “think” but about what position a shamed person will be relegated to in a social sense. That being said, shamed people aren’t sentenced to pick up garbage or set adrift on an ice flow, but there remains a strong feeling that striving for personal perfection causes advancement in life, while shaming oneself (even if it is only known to oneself) closes doors. There is also a metaphysical part that I don’t really understand. It’s an interesting concept regardless.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 8, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a completly different culture with a completly different cultural background. The word shame doesn’t even mean the same things here and there, lets face it we live in a world where leaked sex tapes and doing jail time are publicity stunts that make people more famous and they live in a world where people commit suicide if they don’t pass college entrance exams.
by who me on Apr 8, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points. I wish I had the chance to visit Japan. I’d love to see it first hand, talk to some born-and-raised Japanese people, and just try and get my head around it.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 8, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had a layover in Tokyo on my way back from Thailand but I didn’t get to see much besides the airport. Of course every place I have been outside of the US has been pretty different (with the exception of Canada), different countries have different cultures.
by who me on Apr 8, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pride FC
the only thing that I miss about Pride is the rivalry they had with the UFC.some of the things that i don’t miss are the over the top theatrics that they had. I’m glad that I don’t have to hear Lenne Hardt anymore,BTW i don’t watch DREAM.some of the match making was ridiculous,pitting champions against cans. it was to much like pro wrestling AKA sports entertainment.
BTW real fights happen in a CAGE not a ring.
by TheLevi on Apr 8, 2009 2:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
- is a crock that is easily refuted by the star power of non puroresu types like Wanderlei, Nogueira, CroCop, Fedor, Rampage, Coleman, etc. etc. etc.
Its the same as any other place in the world, people just want larger than life stars who can deliver. Zach just has some weird obsession with pro wrestling.
by smoogy on Apr 8, 2009 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A bit odd since you can’t refute “most” by a small handful of examples that weren’t. That’s sort of the point of using “most” instead of “all”. Hell it’s easy enough to point to the fact that several of the “non puroresu” guys also did some pro wrestling in Japan. It’s not a crock it’s just the fact that there is no pro wrestling stigma there thus it’s a very easy cross over to make. Arnold’s point is talked through a lot more in the part that isn’t quoted here.
by who me on Apr 8, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
None of the guys I listed were reliant on puroresu to bring their star up, even if they dabbled a bit like Coleman. I know there is no stigma as well. I’m not going to list every PRIDE star and whether or not they had pro wrestling ties, but I’m confident that Zach is wrong when he says a majority of the star power relied on it.
by smoogy on Apr 8, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking as a TUF noob
It seems like the draws for the Japanese audience weren’t always those who the non-Japanese fans were interested in, a la Hidehiko Yoshida. In terms of the Japanese audience, how popular were those guys you listed when compared to the Yoshida’s, Akiyama’s, and Ogawa’s?
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 8, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not as popular as Yoshida or Ogawa, but they were all sold as stars for PRIDE.
by smoogy on Apr 8, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a debatable point not a easily refuted one. Heck even if you did list them out how would you rank them? By belts, by drawing power, by when they were big compared to how Pride was established and grew? Would you consider Bob Sapp a pro wrestler first or second, there is a real debate to be had there on that one mega-star alone. How about Minowaman, he isn’t a professional wrestler but he does act like one and he is booked in that style quite often.
by who me on Apr 8, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, it isn’t cut and dry. But I think it would be fair to say that more fighters came up from Judo, K-1, BJJ etc. than puroresu types like Sakuraba, even if you lump in guys like Minowa and Sapp. I don’t believe they need a puroresu revival, they just need compelling mainstream-ish stars like Satoshi Ishii.
by smoogy on Apr 8, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And what the fuck is Ishii up to? Hype before the new year and then nothing. Still not signed?
by subo on Apr 8, 2009 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last I heard, he’s training a couple of different places – some in Japan, some in the States, even rumours that he was heading to Brazil – and that he wants to get better at the standup aspect of MMA before he signs anywhere.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 8, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He trained a little Machida in Brazil. iioywn made a fanshot about it.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Apr 8, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently he is still there and loves it.
by smoogy on Apr 8, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome.
A man should never waste an opportunity to keep his mouth shut.
by iiowyn on Apr 8, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One of the thinks I think that Dream does better than Pride did was that they get their freakshow groove on with fighters instead of puroresu. There is no way around Choi being a freak fight but it’s better than Giant Silva, the Overeem vs K-1 fights have also been real interesting. Heck even the stupid ass cosplay fight with Bob Sapp had a real wrestler under the mask. There is nothing wrong with the pro wresters having fights and some of the were fun to watch (Yoshihiro Takayama) but i guess my western sensabilities prefer the k-1 crossovers.
by who me on Apr 8, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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