What makes a Top Ten Fighter
Does it bother you seeing top flight light heavyweights with more than 3 losses.
I come from a boxing background, and I understand that in boxing, guys usually fight nobodies for their first 15-20 pro fights in order to pad a record/ego. But in this sport we see top fighters fighting eachother rather consistently once they have reached that upper echelon. And I like that, it makes for very interesting, marketable fights, that we don't usually have to wait years for to happen.
However what that has resulted in for Forrest and Jardine in particular (who are considered to be top 10), is a great deal of inconsistency. We see guys who are ranked in the top 10, who can barely string together 2 wins. Their record suffers over time and becomes unimpressive, even though they are top flight competition, to the layperson that record appears as though they are sub-par fighters.
I mean it is pretty clear to anyone who follows the sport that jardine and forrest are cream of the crop competition and if they were fighting in any other organization they would be champions and would be running through the competition and would likely have very impressive records. But the UFC has a higher standard, and because of that does that mean we should be less lenient on inconsistent fighters who constantly fight top competition, or more lenient.
IE Does someone like jardine, if he loses his next fight, really deserve to be in the ufc/be in the top 10 WHEN CONSIDERING THAT WOULD MAKE HIM 2-4 in the last 3 years? Regardless of the fact that he has fought liddell, vera, jackson, silva, that is still quite a bad record, and even though it is top guys I think it shows either he needs to start fighting lesser opponents or move to a different org because he clearly is not good enough to hang.
Same thing goes with Forrest, I understand the UFC holds on to him for marketing purposes but if he loses to Anderson then what? He would be 3-3 in the last 3 years. Even though he has beaten top competition, it shows that he is inconsistent, and that there are a multitude of guys in the division who are just better than him, and that it is unlikely he will ever be a champ again? Where does he go? Does he keep fighting top competition?
I just think this is a trend we are starting to see, marketable guys, who are GOOD, but not good enough, who the UFC keeps around fighting top competition, even when it's possible they need to take a step down in competition. Honestly where does forrest go if he loses to Silva? It's clear he won't be a 205 champ again, he can't go to 185, and he can't go to HW. He is really far into his career now so he can't exactly reinvent himself.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Good post… I agree with you in that its hard to put someone in the top 10 who cant seem to string together 2 wins, but at the same time, put against anyone below the top 10, and those guys (forest, jardine, even chuck right now) will still be pretty dominant. Fortunatly for the UFC, the LHW division is so deep, that just one win against a decent opponent can put you right back in the thick of things. Unlike the HW’s, where a loss, and you are below the other 4-5 high level guys, the LHW’s have so many top tier opponents
agreed about the fight record.
but then you can have it the other way.
Guy like Tito – guy fought Ken X 3 (the last two he won in the first round). His fight record got padded out in ’06 something awful. and if my memory is correct he then went on to fight Chuck…
Here’s the problem with this:
Rankings are subjective. It’s been argued many times that there are many, many problems with subjectively ranking fighters who have never fought each other. This is one of them.
If you drop guys like Forrest and Jardine for “inconsistency,” who do you replace them with? An undefeated young regional fighter who has never fought anyone? While these guys consistently fight top guys, they only do so for as long as they are winning every once in a while.
Look at Jardine. After doing fairly well against the mid-level competition, Jardine was awarded a match with Liddell. He won and was subsequently put against Wanderlei and lost. Then he was put in a match against Brandon Vera which would keep one of them a contender and send the other one back down the ladder. Jardine won and was put against Rampage, whereas Vera was stuck fighting Michael Patt. Despite the loss to Rampage, Jardine still looked very good and held his own and is being put in a similar situation as the Vera fight against Thiago Silva, who is also coming off a loss against a top guy. Expect the winner of that fight to remain fighting top guys while the loser will go back down the ladder.
Look at Forrest. After getting TKOed by Jardine, he was put in a safe fight against Hector Ramirez and won. He then was awarded for his victory with a fight against number one at the time Shogun Rua. He won that fight and was put against Rampage and won. He then moved on to continue fighting top guys as he was the champ and dropped a fight to Rashad. He has now been given the opportuntiy to redeem himself and if he does, he’ll likely fight for the belt again. If he loses, he’ll likely be given the opportunity to avenge his loss to Jardine or given a re-match with Shogun or Rampage, depending on where both guys are. If he loses a third fight in a row, he’ll be sent to the bottom of the pack.
Point is, boxing matchmaking is shit and MMA matchmaking makes for more exciting match-ups more often. If Jardine drops the fight to Thiago Silva, it would make sense to drop him from the top 10. If Forrest loses to Anderson Silva and in his rebound fight after, it would make sense to drop him from the top 10 as well. But even if these guys are inconsistent, they need to become consistent at losing before they are dropped from the top 10 unless someone else emerges as worthy to take their place in the rankings.
by dropkick101 on Apr 30, 2009 11:48 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Nobody goes undefeated in MMA (the exception – Fedor – proves the rule). The differences need to be elucidated between MMA and boxing for some. You done good here.
by Derek Suboticki on May 1, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Not everyone is going to be a champion, and not everyone is even going to be in the top ten.
I liked the above post that asked who should replace fighters like Griffin or Jardine? I did like this post, but looking at things realistically, when an MMA organization has a division like the UFC light heavyweight division, you can’t expect everyone to hold the championship or even be a contender. To even be in the top ten is an honor in itself because many fighters who fight at 205 will not EVEN get that far. Whether Forrest will ever get a title shot or not I don’t know, but regardless, he can always be put in compelling and money-making matchups whether he ever gets a title shot or not.
I totally agree
I hate this notion that every fighter in the organisation has to have the potential to one day hold the belt. I just like seeing exciting fights.
Agreed. The belts dont mean a great deal to me. What did it really mean when Serra took the belt from GSP? It didnt mean Serra was the best. And similarly, when Forrest had the belt, many didnt believe him to be the best either. So if the belt doesnt mean you are the best, then what is its purpose?
Top 10s for me are simple. I just try to look as objectively as possible at the results of fights. I basically agree with www.mma-elo.com as that is the best objective ranking system I have found. Any time I disagree with their rankings, I take a look at the record of the fighters in question and I generally agree with their rankings…….even though they dropped my boy Aoki down to 4 after losing to Mach!!
Fighters generally ascend and descend the rankings more slowly than most other subjective rankings too which I think is a good thing too. Their current top 10 LHW list is:
1 Quinton Jackson
2 Rashad Evans
3 Lyoto Machida
4 Renato Sobral
5 Mauricio Rua
6 Antonio Rogerio Nogueira
7 Chuck Liddell
8 Forrest Griffin
9 Thiago Silva
10 Jason Brilz
http://www.mma-elo.com/ranks.php?r=4
ELO? Really?
When I look at the break down for the meta rankings, ELO seems to consistently be the most unlike the other sites rankings.
Jason Brills in the top ten? Seriously? Not one of the other 20 sites had him even close to their top ten.
A well beaten path doesnt mean its the right track.
Brilz is the kinda guy that makes me do a double take too so I compared his record to the record of other guys. Brilz is 17-1-1 and sure, those 17 arent all A grade competition, which is why he isnt sitting at #5 or something. But Boetsch (8-3) and Morris (9-4), his 2 most recent wins are far from chumps.
I then think of who might fill that spot if not Brilz.
Jardine? Lost 4 of his last 8, including 2 losses to guys outside the top 10.
Wanderlei? Lost 4 of his last 5 with no wins against top 10 guys since at least 2005.
Luis Cane? Who has he beaten? Cantwell? Sokodjou? No top guys and is only 10-1
Forget being surprised by Brilz at 10, how the hell do Sherdog have Cane at #6?!?!?!
Its also funny how people are happy to have Thiago Silva in their top 10 with his 13-1 record but most would scoff at Brilz being there. What has Thiago done that Brilz hasnt? Both have impressive records over reasonable opponents but have failed to notch up any wins against top tier fighters. Consequently, both sit on the cusp of the top 10. That seems fair to me.
Thats why I like the mma-elo rankings. Every time I disagree, I check the results and I end up agreeing with them. Also now that Brilz has a high ranking, his rank is going to increase much more slowly if he beats lower competition and he will drop significantly if he loses to lower competition. A great example of this is Aoki. He was the #1 LW according to mma-elo until his loss to Mach. As a result of his loss to Mach, Aoki dropped 70 points and fell to 4th in the rankings. When he beat David Gardner, he only gained a tiny 7 points. So if Brilz wants to keep fighting mid tier guys, he will risk losing more and more points and be gaining fewer and fewer points for each win.
To each his own
Side note:
Aoki at number one has always been hard for me to swallow. But lets just say that he was number one at lightweight, what does losing to an opponent outside of you weight class (up a class) have to do with his ranking at lightweight? Should Penn have fallen off as number one on certain rankings due to his loss to GSP? Should Aoki fall even farther after his exhibition with Fedor?
In my opinion that doesn’t make much sense.
To answer your question...
Losses in a different weight class shouldn’t heavily affect a fighter’s ranking in their natural weight class.
However, LW is a very hard class to rank objectively. You have BJ, who has looked spectacular at ‘55 right now, but who doesn’t necessarily have the quality wins to justify a #1 spot (even though most sites have him there).
And Penn deserves to be lower in the rankings from the GSP loss because it’s caused him to be inactive in the LW division. Simply the fact that you hold the UFC title doesn’t make you the #1 LW (and that’s coming from a pretty big fan of BJ).
Aoki doesn’t deserve the #1 slot because of the loss to Joachim that happened less than a year ago, and the KO loss to Sakurai just reinforces that.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on May 6, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Cane's in the Sherdog top 10, because...
at the time he fought Sokodjou, Sok was in the top 10. He was fresh off beating the piss out of Kaz, and his only loss was to Machida. At the time, Sokodjou hadn’t been exposed.
Now, i’ve heard Jeff Sherwood explain on the radio how their rankings work, and one thing that they seem to implement is that if a fighter beats another fighter that’s in the top 10, then that fighter get’s a spot in the top 10.
Subsequently dominating a legit prospect in Steve Cantwell also improved his stock.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA.
'09 is the year of the FW's.
by ElliotMatheny on May 6, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
If Forrest or Jardine were to get cut from the UFC (not going to happen any time soon), they could easily go to another organization and become a “Robbie Lawler”. That’s fine I guess.
But wouldn’t you rather see the best fight the best (sorry if this sounds like i am a Wamma backer)? Even if it means some of the fighters’ records would suffer?
Do I think a guy like Robbie Lawler could come back into the UFC and take the title? Maybe at best. But I am sure that it would make for some entertaining and marketable fights.

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