Will Dana White's Plan to Retire Chuck Liddell Backfire?
by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 12:38 PM EDT
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Since Chuck Liddell's first round TKO loss to Mauricio "Shogun" Rua at UFC 97, one of the major talking points among fans has been the controversy surrounding the potential for Chuck Liddell to walk away from the sport. After losing to top UFC Light Heavyweights Keith Jardine, Rashad Evans, Quinton "Rampage" Jackson, and "Shogun" Rua, many fans are calling for Liddell to call it quits after losing four of his last five bouts in the Octagon. Dana White is also on that bandwagon:
"Believe me, it will be a [expletive] war if he tries not to retire, believe me," he said. "I love him. He helped me build this business. We started when he was making five hundred [to show] and five hundred [to win]. And we had the dream of him becoming a big star and winning the title and making all kinds of money... We did it all man. We [expletive] did it all. We did it. We did it. It's [expletive] over. He's 40 years old, it is over."
Liddell wasn't giving much information if he was going along with what White had already told the media, but he seemed much more inclined to go along with the plan to retire later on:
When asked if he had entered the cage for the final time, Liddell was at first noncommittal but later admitted it was probably true.
"Yeah, that's probably the case," Liddell said. "I'm not going to make any decisions until I go home to talk to everybody, talk to my people and my friends. ... But it's probably safe to say (I'm retired)."
The news will likely hit the MMA world hard. Despite his 1-4 record since his final title defense over Tito Ortiz at UFC 66, Liddell remains a fan favorite, a proven par-per-view draw, and an international icon for the sport.
So, where is the controversy? Reading over the thoughts that John Hackleman, Chuck's long-time trainer, has stated are beginning to make me believe that we haven't seen that last of Chuck Liddell. In fact, there could be a possibility of a storm brewing.
From the post, Hackleman seems a bit irritated at the fact that White has already written off Liddell as stepping into the Octagon again even though Liddell has one fight left on his contract. Hackleman states that the UFC is obligated to give him that fight, and there is no stopping someone's livelihood even in a court of law with a binding contract.
This presents an interesting situation for the UFC, Dana White, and Chuck Liddell. We've seen fighters in the past well past their prime battle it out in subpar matchups. Guys like Ken Shamrock tell us that they just want to keep doing what they love, regardless of what anybody tells them. I can see their point in the fact that they just want to continue doing what they love until they physically can't do it any longer, but I wonder if Chuck Liddell still has some sort of fantasy that he can once again become a champion. That's where the logic doesn't compute in my mind.
If Chuck Liddell wanted to continue to simply fulfill his hunger for the love of fighting, would you be upset? It's a debate that rears its head from time to time. Who are we to say when someone should quit?
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the situation. I've never been a huge fan of Chuck Liddell, but I certainly would feel strange seeing Chuck take on subpar competition and losing matchups against younger competition. Furthermore, taking on Dana White in any situation can't be a good thing, and trying to move to Strikeforce or some other promotion would probably tarnish the legacy he has created with the UFC a bit. I'd be much more inclined to see Chuck start and.. end his career with the biggest and best MMA organization in the world. Will that happen?
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I think Dana mentioned that after the Rashad fight he wanted Chuck to retire and he was essentially convinced to give Chuck one more fight. If that’s the case, then I imagine White being all the more stubborn regarding this potential move.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito on Belfort at Affliction:DOR
I just do not take too much from Hackleman's remarks.
I do believe that he is genuine about caring for Chuck, but I also believe that he is delusional in looking at Chuck these days. And we all know Dana is a realist foremost & probably does not mince words about what is really on his mind so you know you are getting his true feelings. This is always tough for elite athletes at the end of their careers when they realize they can no longer compete at that level. Their mind says they can, but their bodies know they cannot & in the end your body usually wins out.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I just think Chuck has the itch,and he will always want to scratch it. That’s where I think he’s going through the same justification in his mind as Ken has lately. I’ll fight for fun, not for the fans, because I love fighting. We’ll see if he actually does that.
It’s just an odd ordeal until he finally comes out with the retirement conference.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with the athletes "itch" you mentioned,
but for me personally I do not want to see him fight again. What would be the point of him fighting lesser competition? Which would be the only real shot he would have at winning.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
There would be no point. He’d simply take fights because he loves to fight, doesn’t give a shit what anyone thinks, just loves to compete. That’s what I’m trying to convey. We don’t have any say in that type of situation.
I personally agree, I don’t really want to see it come down to that, but it’s his livelihood and his decision. Maybe he’s just loves to train and fight, and simply doesn’t want to stop.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard what you said,
but he, like Randy, has been to the mountaintop. And once you have been there, you do not want to just fuck around at the bottom with a bunch of yahoos jerking off all day long. In watching Chuck’s recent training, I do not think he enjoys that part of the game much any more if he ever did. I know that he still loves to bang and hope he realizes that it is time to head out to that big pasture & just stud for the rest of his life.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Athletes seem to always have problems stepping away. Chuck most likely doesn’t have livelihood problems like guys such as Ken Shamrock have (not to mention that we know that Dana will give Chuck a job), he also doesn’t have anything to prove in the sport anymore and won’t be in title contention. If Chuck does decide to fight again it would be purely to scratch that itch.
39 is old for a fighter but not for a person, Chuck has a lot of life left to live and decades of health he has to think about too. I’ve got a feeling that is the angle that Dana White’s statements are coming from. He is worried about future health and Dana is in a position to know a lot more about Chuck’s health than we are. Even in Hackleman’s statement he says that Dana’s first concern is for Chuck.
Here’s my problem with the whole job thing… there is no way Chuck can pull off speaking about legislation to legalize MMA. I just don’t see it, and I see Chuck getting offly bored doing nothing. Dana is worrying about his health, but this is ultimately what Chuck wants to do. There are plenty of examples of this in sports, PLENTY.
I understand the concern for Chuck’s health, but Chuck will simply say “I’m fine, I feel fine… hungry to fight”. Whether or not his actual reflexes, health, etc… are in tune enough, that’s a different story. We aren’t talking his actual skills here, we’re talking his actual mindset. Some guys just can’t disconnect.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
"there is no way Chuck can pull off speaking about legislation to legalize MMA"
and just because Dana mentions this does not mean this will ever happen. In all likelyhood, any position Chuck is given will be a figurehead only so we should really just forget about that comment.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
I agree, I think that’s the only real position he can be given. Show up for this, show up for that, chat it up with the fans, chat it up with sponsors, etc.
Follow my analysis of all things MMA on BloodyElbow.com
by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He will be given a token title
with no real responsibilities, but one where he can still be visible for the fans.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Hey, if the UFC wants
to pay him 6 figures to be VP in charge of censoring Dana’s vlogs I am all for it.
Arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics, even when you win you are still retarded.
Dana White fight promoter would have no chance in stopping Chuck from fighting if he still wanted to, Dana White best friend might. Thing is this isn’t a money issue it’s purely a health concerns from best friend issue. Dana is basically putting a friendship on the line to stop the guy from fighting anymore, that is a much bigger deal than sport issues. This really is unlike anything else we have seen in this sport.
I agree that the job is a joke, I mean I guess Chuck could use his accounting degree but I’ve got a feeling the extent of Chuck’s job would be signing autorgraps and doing press tours for shows.
Chuck will probably pull a Randy – retire, take a year off, come back and kick ass
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
I don’t know if that would happen. Chuck’s style was dependent on getting his punch off before the other guy did, and being able to take a punch, eventually getting a big KO. Randy uses his greco-roman to grind his opponent into the dirt to win a decision or late TKO. Randy’s style is much more old man friendly. Randy also only started doing MMA at 38, and is something of a genetic freak.
Keep firing Assholes!
Akiyama is the Japanese word for Sexify.
That and
He’s also Captain America.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Chuck will never leave the UFC. I assume that if he insists on fighting, Dana will let him but as part of a deal preventing him from ever fighting anywhere else. A lot of it is posturing. One thing I’m certain of is Chuck is definitely not going to Strikeforce or some other group.
K-1 maybe? :P
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
I don’t see Dana letting him leave the promotion. I think one of the things Chuck would need to do is simply say… hey, I’m not going to win a title any time soon, but I want to put on exciting fights. Let me put on exciting shows for the fans. The problem is that Chuck probably thinks a big win is what he needs, and his popularity will propel him into some sort of title contention role. It just isn’t that way anymore with him.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
A parallel?
I remember reading an interview with Guy Lafleur (hockey legend) who talked about how hard it was to retire. He was taking a long time, thinking it over, and woke up in the middle of the night convinced “I can still do this, I can still play.” So he called Lindy Ruff (now coach of the Buffalo Sabres) and said “Lindy, I think I can still play, and I want to come back. What do you think? Do I still have it?” And after a long pause, Lindy said, “No, you don’t.”
Lafleur said it was the hardest thing in the world to hear, but that was why he called Ruff. He knew that Ruff was an honest friend and would tell him the truth, and he needed to hear it from someone else. He retired – for good – right afterwards.
I hope Chuck knows who his “Lindy Ruff” type friends are, and listens to what they say, whether it’s to stay and fight or to hang it up.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec’d for hockey reference… and I actually read about that awhile back. I heard a similar story from Pat Lafontaine when I met him a long ass time ago. He had a brutally honest doctor tell him that he was going to end up a fruit vegetable sitting on someone’s porch rotting for the rest of his life if he didn’t retire. He finally listened.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
God, it must have been hard for Lafontaine, too because he was still so young. But the blows to the head… They take their toll.
Everyone hates to see greats retire. It must be even harder for someone who knows what greatness feels like first hand to let go – not of the greatness, since that’s already gone, but of the chance to be great again.
I think that Chuck should take up some hobbies before he makes any decision.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Hackleman is just mad that his last vestige of relevancy is going away with Chuck.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
This was my first impression.
People are talking about what Dana has to do with this but my thought is why is Hackleman so out in the public getting his name out there in this issue. If he was just being a friend why wouldn’t he be having this discussion with Chuck behind closed doors not in the public.
That was my point about Dana White. If HE is just being a friend to Chuck, then why isn’t HE trying to convince Chuck behind closed doors to retire, rather than publicly shaming him, and attempting to diminish his marketability to other promoters and credibility with fans.
Well Dana usually seems to just say what he thinks one way or the other. If it is a calculated play then there are a few reasons for it. First, as you point out, if Chuck decides not to retire then he won’t be as valuable to another promotion. Second maybe he doesn’t want Chuck to retire but he also doesn’t want to keep paying him like a king. Could be moving for a pay cut.
I dislike Matt Hughes.
by MonkeyCHops on Apr 29, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
It could also be that he knows that he needed to make it public to get Chuck to go through with retirement.
Well, if that’s the case, then Hackleman has every right, as Chuck’s spokesperson, to refute Dana’s media play, and reposition the debate, so that it becomes more about what CHUCK wants than what Dana wants, as Chuck’s “friend.”
If Hackleman wants to discuss this then he shouldn’t be doing it as Chuck’s spokesperson he should also be looking at it as Chuck’s friend. This isn’t a business decision it’s a health and welfare decision. What Chuck needs is much more important than what Chuck wants because at 39 he has a lot of life left to live. That is the angle that this discussion should take because this isn’t like 65 year olds retiring from work it’s about when is it time to put a fighter’s future health first because fighting does take a toll on a person that last their entire life.
Sorry, I read your post wrong. I thought you were saying that you agreed with the poster who thought that Dana taking the case public was a business decision, but that there was a personal component as well. To me, Hackleman has every right, if that’s the case, to also make a business/personal decision, especially considering that as a trainer, his interests are MORE aligned with those of Chuck than Dana’s are. (Remember, Dana White is SUPPOSED to be objective in doing his job, while Hackleman is supposed to help his fighter avoid damage.)
Fact is, I have LONG had a problem with the buddy-buddy relationship between the UFC President and its signature star, because it reinforces the notion of a superstar receiving favorable treatment by the organization. This is further highlighted by the problems the UFC has had with Randy Couture and Tito Ortiz, probably Liddell’s closest peers and contemporaries. I think it’s unprofessional, and exposes both to criticism.
That said, it really is a legal matter. Chuck has a fight remaining on his contract, and unless the UFC is prepared to buy him out, confident that Liddell’s friendship with White will ensure that he doesn’t fight elsewhere, they have to eventually grant his request to fight. They CANNOT unilaterally force a retirement upon him. The only people who can do that are the Athletic Commissions, who could refuse to grant Chuck a license to fight. But since we know that Ken Shamrock can still get licensed, it’s unlikely that they’ll have a problem with Liddell.
Like I said before. Dana White the UFC President could handle this a certain way, and do what it takes to ensure that Chuck never fights again, but it would be a long, grueling fight; Dana White the friend can’t handle things the same way. Dana the friend is probably most effective behind closed doors. This continual blending of the two roles kinda undermines the effectiveness of both.
Wouldn’t Hackleman get a cut of Chuck’s pay if he fought? Seems to be that might be just a tiny conflict of interest, especially since the Pit doesn’t seem to have any other big fighters.
And forget what’s in Chuck’s contract – the UFC can stonewall Chuck forever if they want.
Besides, working for the UFC as opposed to fighting for the UFC might not be bad. Chuck will be paid well and he’ll even get health insurance!
My Modest Proposal:
TUF 12: Team Chuck vs. Team Dana
If Chuck’s team wins, he gets another fight. If not, he stays retired.
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